Accountable;951434 wrote: Great. Now that that's done, joint the conversation like a normal person.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gal & Jester,
Other than semantics, what's the difference between EU "expansion", Russia's actions, China's reclaiming Tibet, and US "liberating" Iraq?
Well, I will say in defence of my own continent, that accession to the EU is a voluntary process, countries are not asked to join, you apply to join, and if the other member states are agreed you go through a process of accession to the Union. To qualify as a member state, you firstly need to be a European country and recognized as such, you have to have a democratic government, a free press, an independent judiciary, you have to sign up to the declaration of fundamental human rights and the geneva convention, and you require a functioning and open economy, and you have to be prepared to sign up to the institutions of the EU as they stand at present (admittedly these institutions are the complicated bit). At the moment there is a waiting list of about 11 countries wishing to join, most are ex soviet republics, Turkey is another applicant.
As far as I am aware, Russia is not claiming these 2 breakaway republics, though they have strong ethnic and cultural links with Russia, though they also have sizable Georgian populations. They will probably invite them into the CIS (which is essentially "Greater Russia") if they do seceed from Georgia, I am not sure what the qualifications for being in the CIS are, but they are certainly not the same as the ones for the EU, which is a completely different type of political block, in that the EU is a loose confederation of European soveiregn states, while the CIS is Russia and its clients.
As for Tibet, well its part of China on and off for thousands of years, though its also been independent as well, of course its last spell of independence was ended in 1949 with a communist invasion from China, since then its been ruled directly from Bejing by Han Chinese like everywhere else in that vast country. I don't hear there being much talk of giving the Tibetans much of a say in their own countries independence, (whatever it is they want, and who knows because they are not even allowed to talk about it) which is a lot less than even the Russians have given to their dependent little client states.
The US invasion of Iraq was a unilateral, invasion of a totaliarian, secular middle eastern nation (run by a murderous despot, like a lot of the others) about 8,000 miles from the US coast, in the aftermath of a terrible attack on the US (which once more for the audience had less to do with Iraq than Iceland). As far as I am aware, Iraq has never been considered a threat to the continental US in any serious way (other than the cost of holiday gas prices) previously, and its much hyped WMD program turned out to be an ice cream factory, while next door in Iran they were busy working on the real thing as we all now realize. Also, I don't recall Iraqi's expressing any desire that their country should become the 52nd state of the Union, or that any native American minorities were being persecuted by Iraqi government forces. So just what the parrallel is between these other territorial disputes, I am unsure.
Russia invades Georgia
Russia invades Georgia
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Russia invades Georgia
Accountable;951434 wrote: Great. Now that that's done, joint the conversation like a normal person.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gal & Jester,
Other than semantics, what's the difference between EU "expansion", Russia's actions, China's reclaiming Tibet, and US "liberating" Iraq?
OverStand Something Your Not Ready For Me Because You Want To Dance Around The Truth / Facts . You Want To Go To Those Website That Point The Finger At Everyone But Themselves / Yourselves , Then Bring It Here For People To Agree With You , Those Who Don't You Insult Them . Case And Point You Speak Of Illegals Yes , Your Talking About People Who Were Kick Our By Force ---Out Of Their OWN Country , Then You Label Them Illegal immigrants Because They Want To Get Back In . Then You Have The Nerve To Talk About Puting People On A List Stateing Who Should / Shouldn't Be Here . Then You Address A Post About Rev Wright? / Barack Obama / John McCain, I Notice How You Eazy Your Little Raceism In It ,Your From The Old School And Set In Your Ways Meaning Your Lock In A Zone / It Would Be A Waste Of Time Discussing Anything With You . . I Could On And On . Let Me Stop Here Because I'm Geting Off The Above Subject .
By The Way Before You Get Into The Anti -Bull Crap It Does Work With Me , It Just Another Way To LABEL Some One Such As Right/ Left Wing Etc Etc =Mind Game
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gal & Jester,
Other than semantics, what's the difference between EU "expansion", Russia's actions, China's reclaiming Tibet, and US "liberating" Iraq?
OverStand Something Your Not Ready For Me Because You Want To Dance Around The Truth / Facts . You Want To Go To Those Website That Point The Finger At Everyone But Themselves / Yourselves , Then Bring It Here For People To Agree With You , Those Who Don't You Insult Them . Case And Point You Speak Of Illegals Yes , Your Talking About People Who Were Kick Our By Force ---Out Of Their OWN Country , Then You Label Them Illegal immigrants Because They Want To Get Back In . Then You Have The Nerve To Talk About Puting People On A List Stateing Who Should / Shouldn't Be Here . Then You Address A Post About Rev Wright? / Barack Obama / John McCain, I Notice How You Eazy Your Little Raceism In It ,Your From The Old School And Set In Your Ways Meaning Your Lock In A Zone / It Would Be A Waste Of Time Discussing Anything With You . . I Could On And On . Let Me Stop Here Because I'm Geting Off The Above Subject .
By The Way Before You Get Into The Anti -Bull Crap It Does Work With Me , It Just Another Way To LABEL Some One Such As Right/ Left Wing Etc Etc =Mind Game
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience.
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Russia invades Georgia
I don't see much difference. I see four players with exactly the same goal simply using different strategies to obtain the goal. That goal is no different from empires past.
Specific to the EU, Gal, since you're there: what's the incentive? What do European states face by not joining the EU? Do the negatives of staying independent increase as more states join? If so, the pressures, though dressed better and presented more politely, aren't much different from Bush's 'Yer either with us or agin us' or Putin's You Belong to Me medley.
Specific to the EU, Gal, since you're there: what's the incentive? What do European states face by not joining the EU? Do the negatives of staying independent increase as more states join? If so, the pressures, though dressed better and presented more politely, aren't much different from Bush's 'Yer either with us or agin us' or Putin's You Belong to Me medley.
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Russia invades Georgia
Daniyal;951597 wrote: OverStand Something Your Not Ready For Me Because You Want To Dance Around The Truth / Facts . You Want To Go To Those Website That Point The Finger At Everyone But
What's your opinion about the situation between Russia and Georgia?
What's your opinion about the situation between Russia and Georgia?
Russia invades Georgia
Accountable;951611 wrote: What's your opinion about the situation between Russia and Georgia?
Read Post #52 Again Ok .
I Don't Give Opinion
1 a : a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter b : APPROVAL , ESTEEM
2 a : belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge b : a generally held view
Read Post #52 Again Ok .
I Don't Give Opinion
1 a : a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter b : APPROVAL , ESTEEM
2 a : belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge b : a generally held view
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience.
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
Russia invades Georgia
Daniyal;951621 wrote: Read Post #52 Again Ok .
I Don't Give Opinion
1 a : a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter b : APPROVAL , ESTEEM
2 a : belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge b : a generally held view
Okay. Can we please continue with the topic of the thread, though? Russia and Georgia.
I Don't Give Opinion
1 a : a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter b : APPROVAL , ESTEEM
2 a : belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge b : a generally held view
Okay. Can we please continue with the topic of the thread, though? Russia and Georgia.
Signature text removed at the request of a member.
Participate in The unOfficial Forum Garden Scavenger Hunt 2009!
Russia invades Georgia
G-man;951681 wrote: Okay. Can we please continue with the topic of the thread, though? Russia and Georgia.
Sure why not !
Sure why not !
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience.
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
Russia invades Georgia
Daniyal;951685 wrote: Sure why not !
Thank you.
Thank you.
Signature text removed at the request of a member.
Participate in The unOfficial Forum Garden Scavenger Hunt 2009!
Russia invades Georgia
Accountable;951607 wrote: I don't see much difference. I see four players with exactly the same goal simply using different strategies to obtain the goal. That goal is no different from empires past.
Specific to the EU, Gal, since you're there: what's the incentive? What do European states face by not joining the EU? Do the negatives of staying independent increase as more states join? If so, the pressures, though dressed better and presented more politely, aren't much different from Bush's 'Yer either with us or agin us' or Putin's You Belong to Me medley.
There are several reasons. Firstly, you have to realize that for all its differences Europe is actually a single political entity in many ways, and has been for centuries, in that no one European Nation State can do much on the continent without it impacting on everyone else. In the past of course this has led to many wars, culminating in the cataclysmic 20th century, in which European civilization was almost annihilated and the continent was divided between the US and Russia. The EU is the latest and so far most successful attempt to represent the civilizational unity of Europe in a stable, but diverse political framework. Whether it will succeed in the long run remains to be seen. However, to my mind, its the most effective way that the individual European nations can ensure their collective and individual security.
Secondly, in the same way that America's economic power is based on its massive open and free continental economy with no internal borders, tariffs, and one currency and economic set of rules, likewise the developing EU model is based on a similar (if slightly different) concept.
Thirdly, Europeans have a shared view of the world, which is somewhat different than those of say the Americans, or the Russians, or the Chinese. As separate nations, European countries are relatively small and weak compared to the giants like the US and China, but together as the EU, (which is a very large economic power though not a military one) they are able to ensure that their view of the world is at least respected and taken seriously by the other great powers.
As far as pressure to join in the EU, certainly there are always pressures and issues for each individual country to make about there position, as the EU now includes most countries on the continent, so you can't ignore it, but equally there are several countries that have decided to remain outside of the EU, particularly Norway and Switzerland. While Britain famously is quite skeptical about the whole EU idea, (or at least some of the major parts of it) and may one day renegotiate its membership of the Union or leave the Union altogether, and of course if they choose to do so that they would be perfectly within their right to do so, no one would object outside of Britain in the British people determining their own future as this is their right as a sovereign people, and they would retain their long-term relations with the rest of the EU nations.
Specific to the EU, Gal, since you're there: what's the incentive? What do European states face by not joining the EU? Do the negatives of staying independent increase as more states join? If so, the pressures, though dressed better and presented more politely, aren't much different from Bush's 'Yer either with us or agin us' or Putin's You Belong to Me medley.
There are several reasons. Firstly, you have to realize that for all its differences Europe is actually a single political entity in many ways, and has been for centuries, in that no one European Nation State can do much on the continent without it impacting on everyone else. In the past of course this has led to many wars, culminating in the cataclysmic 20th century, in which European civilization was almost annihilated and the continent was divided between the US and Russia. The EU is the latest and so far most successful attempt to represent the civilizational unity of Europe in a stable, but diverse political framework. Whether it will succeed in the long run remains to be seen. However, to my mind, its the most effective way that the individual European nations can ensure their collective and individual security.
Secondly, in the same way that America's economic power is based on its massive open and free continental economy with no internal borders, tariffs, and one currency and economic set of rules, likewise the developing EU model is based on a similar (if slightly different) concept.
Thirdly, Europeans have a shared view of the world, which is somewhat different than those of say the Americans, or the Russians, or the Chinese. As separate nations, European countries are relatively small and weak compared to the giants like the US and China, but together as the EU, (which is a very large economic power though not a military one) they are able to ensure that their view of the world is at least respected and taken seriously by the other great powers.
As far as pressure to join in the EU, certainly there are always pressures and issues for each individual country to make about there position, as the EU now includes most countries on the continent, so you can't ignore it, but equally there are several countries that have decided to remain outside of the EU, particularly Norway and Switzerland. While Britain famously is quite skeptical about the whole EU idea, (or at least some of the major parts of it) and may one day renegotiate its membership of the Union or leave the Union altogether, and of course if they choose to do so that they would be perfectly within their right to do so, no one would object outside of Britain in the British people determining their own future as this is their right as a sovereign people, and they would retain their long-term relations with the rest of the EU nations.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Russia invades Georgia
Galbally;951755 wrote: There are several reasons. Firstly, you have to realize that for all its differences Europe is actually a single political entity in many ways, and has been for centuries, in that no one European Nation State can do much on the continent without it impacting on everyone else. In the past of course this has led to many wars, culminating in the cataclysmic 20th century, in which European civilization was almost annihilated and the continent was divided between the US and Russia. The EU is the latest and so far most successful attempt to represent the civilizational unity of Europe in a stable, but diverse political framework. Whether it will succeed in the long run remains to be seen. However, to my mind, its the most effective way that the individual European nations can ensure their collective and individual security.
Secondly, in the same way that America's economic power is based on its massive open and free continental economy with no internal borders, tariffs, and one currency and economic set of rules, likewise the developing EU model is based on a similar (if slightly different) concept.
Thirdly, Europeans have a shared view of the world, which is somewhat different than those of say the Americans, or the Russians, or the Chinese. As separate nations, European countries are relatively small and weak compared to the giants like the US and China, but together as the EU, (which is a very large economic power though not a military one) they are able to ensure that their view of the world is at least respected and taken seriously by the other great powers.
As far as pressure to join in the EU, certainly there are always pressures and issues for each individual country to make about there position, as the EU now includes most countries on the continent, so you can't ignore it, but equally there are several countries that have decided to remain outside of the EU, particularly Norway and Switzerland. While Britain famously is quite skeptical about the whole EU idea, (or at least some of the major parts of it) and may one day renegotiate its membership of the Union or leave the Union altogether, and of course if they choose to do so that they would be perfectly within their right to do so, no one would object outside of Britain in the British people determining their own future as this is their right as a sovereign people, and they would retain their long-term relations with the rest of the EU nations.
Right. As I said, same goal, different strategies. Each wants to ensure its survival; the best way to do that is to control resources. Those states outside the controlling entity are pressured militarily, politically, or economically, to join or die (or at least suffer).
Secondly, in the same way that America's economic power is based on its massive open and free continental economy with no internal borders, tariffs, and one currency and economic set of rules, likewise the developing EU model is based on a similar (if slightly different) concept.
Thirdly, Europeans have a shared view of the world, which is somewhat different than those of say the Americans, or the Russians, or the Chinese. As separate nations, European countries are relatively small and weak compared to the giants like the US and China, but together as the EU, (which is a very large economic power though not a military one) they are able to ensure that their view of the world is at least respected and taken seriously by the other great powers.
As far as pressure to join in the EU, certainly there are always pressures and issues for each individual country to make about there position, as the EU now includes most countries on the continent, so you can't ignore it, but equally there are several countries that have decided to remain outside of the EU, particularly Norway and Switzerland. While Britain famously is quite skeptical about the whole EU idea, (or at least some of the major parts of it) and may one day renegotiate its membership of the Union or leave the Union altogether, and of course if they choose to do so that they would be perfectly within their right to do so, no one would object outside of Britain in the British people determining their own future as this is their right as a sovereign people, and they would retain their long-term relations with the rest of the EU nations.
Right. As I said, same goal, different strategies. Each wants to ensure its survival; the best way to do that is to control resources. Those states outside the controlling entity are pressured militarily, politically, or economically, to join or die (or at least suffer).
Russia invades Georgia
Accountable;951816 wrote: Right. As I said, same goal, different strategies. Each wants to ensure its survival; the best way to do that is to control resources. Those states outside the controlling entity are pressured militarily, politically, or economically, to join or die (or at least suffer).
I think that there is a truth of course to what you say, its the game of power. But, seriously, there is a profound recognition within the idea of the EU that no Nation State can be coerced into a political union, because that ultimately threatens all the other Nation states. So I think the idea that every European Nation must somehow "join or die" is misrepresenting the reality. Of course the fact that you have a huge part of the continent that uses one currency and is engaged in integrating itself does mean that European nations that exist outside of that arrangement still have to have arrangements with the rest of EU. But take for example the US and Canada, one is hugely powerful, the other is not, but both exist perfectly peacefully on the North American continent, despite the odd dispute. The EU is actually something new, a supranational organization. More than a just an economic block, but not a unitary nation, and I don't ever see it becoming that, as Europe is not a nation, it is in reality a civilization made of many nations, all sharing a set of civilizational ideas and history.
I think that there is a truth of course to what you say, its the game of power. But, seriously, there is a profound recognition within the idea of the EU that no Nation State can be coerced into a political union, because that ultimately threatens all the other Nation states. So I think the idea that every European Nation must somehow "join or die" is misrepresenting the reality. Of course the fact that you have a huge part of the continent that uses one currency and is engaged in integrating itself does mean that European nations that exist outside of that arrangement still have to have arrangements with the rest of EU. But take for example the US and Canada, one is hugely powerful, the other is not, but both exist perfectly peacefully on the North American continent, despite the odd dispute. The EU is actually something new, a supranational organization. More than a just an economic block, but not a unitary nation, and I don't ever see it becoming that, as Europe is not a nation, it is in reality a civilization made of many nations, all sharing a set of civilizational ideas and history.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Russia invades Georgia
Galbally;951870 wrote: I think that there is a truth of course to what you say, its the game of power. But, seriously, there is a profound recognition within the idea of the EU that no Nation State can be coerced into a political union, because that ultimately threatens all the other Nation states. So I think the idea that every European Nation must somehow "join or die" is misrepresenting the reality. Of course the fact that you have a huge part of the continent that uses one currency and is engaged in integrating itself does mean that European nations that exist outside of that arrangement still have to have arrangements with the rest of EU. But take for example the US and Canada, one is hugely powerful, the other is not, but both exist perfectly peacefully on the North American continent, despite the odd dispute. The EU is actually something new, a supranational organization. More than a just an economic block, but not a unitary nation, and I don't ever see it becoming that, as Europe is not a nation, it is in reality a civilization made of many nations, all sharing a set of civilizational ideas and history.
Several months ago I mentioned that I saw parallels between the US & EU and was poo-pooed. The identities of the various EU states will begin to meld, if it survives intact. One or more states will try to leave the union over a matter of great importance to them, and others will challenge their right to secede. There will be a war, or the equivalent of war at that future time. That's when Europeans will notice that their EU governors are walking upright and drinking.
Several months ago I mentioned that I saw parallels between the US & EU and was poo-pooed. The identities of the various EU states will begin to meld, if it survives intact. One or more states will try to leave the union over a matter of great importance to them, and others will challenge their right to secede. There will be a war, or the equivalent of war at that future time. That's when Europeans will notice that their EU governors are walking upright and drinking.
-
Snidely Whiplash
- Posts: 176
- Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:33 pm
Russia invades Georgia
What I notice in so many of these replies, and in so many peoples thoughts that I hear talked about daily on this issue, espesh young people, is that so few today are able to really distinguish between good and evil, and right and wrong, or unwilling to do so... And more importantly, these people seem mostly unable or unwilling to stand up for what is right and good... I know I'll get slammed for saying this, but I don't care, I don't have any peers here or friends here, I just post my honest view and couldn't care less who I impress or make mad, I just tell it how it looks...
Russia sees weakness in Europe, USA, and elsewhere... It's slowly making powerplays to test the waters... It's acumulating every energy source, fuel and oil supply it can get it's hands on, and is accumulating great wealth and power over other countries from this... Russia is trying to control Europes energy supply, and when it does, it will bring Europe to it's knees... Then USA will be next, and it's looks dismal here from the way the government is unable to do the simplest job in the house and senate....
I hope it's not too late, and everyones political correctness, environmentalism and pacifist views wishing for a peaceful world doesn't get us all killed eventually, but that's the direction I see the west going.......
The world has never been peaceful, humanity has never been peaceful... Nature has never been peaceful... As long as there is evil in this world, we who believe in good and right will have to fight, if we lay down in "HOPE" of peace and do nothing, we're doomed...
We need to bring these countries Russia wants to control into NATO.... That will solve this for now, as long as contries in NATO still have the courage to stand up for one another.... But if they're a bunch of gutless pacifists like the Brit's have been when Iran declaired war and kidnapped a crew of their sailors while Britain begged Iran on they're hands and knees to let them go, theres little hope....
Just my view....
Russia sees weakness in Europe, USA, and elsewhere... It's slowly making powerplays to test the waters... It's acumulating every energy source, fuel and oil supply it can get it's hands on, and is accumulating great wealth and power over other countries from this... Russia is trying to control Europes energy supply, and when it does, it will bring Europe to it's knees... Then USA will be next, and it's looks dismal here from the way the government is unable to do the simplest job in the house and senate....
I hope it's not too late, and everyones political correctness, environmentalism and pacifist views wishing for a peaceful world doesn't get us all killed eventually, but that's the direction I see the west going.......
The world has never been peaceful, humanity has never been peaceful... Nature has never been peaceful... As long as there is evil in this world, we who believe in good and right will have to fight, if we lay down in "HOPE" of peace and do nothing, we're doomed...
We need to bring these countries Russia wants to control into NATO.... That will solve this for now, as long as contries in NATO still have the courage to stand up for one another.... But if they're a bunch of gutless pacifists like the Brit's have been when Iran declaired war and kidnapped a crew of their sailors while Britain begged Iran on they're hands and knees to let them go, theres little hope....
Just my view....
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Russia invades Georgia
Snidely Whiplash;951944 wrote: Then USA will be next, and it's looks dismal here from the way the government is unable to do the simplest job in the house and senate.... That's because it's so bogged down with all kinds of bureaucracy & departments for jobs they were never commissioned to do. State gov'ts need to take their responsibilities back & free up the federal gov't to stand & protect us from enemies instead of being the enemy.
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Russia invades Georgia
Column
What everyone overlooks in the cease-fire terms is that all future steps -- troop withdrawals, territorial arrangements, peacekeeping forces -- will have to be negotiated between Russia and Georgia. But Russia says it will not talk to Saakashvili. Thus regime change becomes the first requirement for any movement on any front. This will be Putin's refrain in the coming days. He is counting on Europe to pressure Saakashvili to resign and/or flee to "give peace a chance."
What everyone overlooks in the cease-fire terms is that all future steps -- troop withdrawals, territorial arrangements, peacekeeping forces -- will have to be negotiated between Russia and Georgia. But Russia says it will not talk to Saakashvili. Thus regime change becomes the first requirement for any movement on any front. This will be Putin's refrain in the coming days. He is counting on Europe to pressure Saakashvili to resign and/or flee to "give peace a chance."
Russia invades Georgia
Jester;951927 wrote: Danigirl, when I want your opinon I'll give it to you... Overstand?
Like said the Moderator / koan has you back . I Told him you keep calling me danigirl . when you know my name is Daniyal , And he flip the script as if I were mesing with you . So being that your Moderator pet you're allow to get away with thing like a I said .
Like said the Moderator / koan has you back . I Told him you keep calling me danigirl . when you know my name is Daniyal , And he flip the script as if I were mesing with you . So being that your Moderator pet you're allow to get away with thing like a I said .
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience.
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
Russia invades Georgia
Jester;952279 wrote: Discuss the thread topic or get off of it.
:wah::wah:
:wah::wah:
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience.
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
Russia invades Georgia
posted by jester
I dont disgaree with you that we need to bring these break away countries under NATO, or some other union of some kind, I personally think its time for the EU to step up, but they wont, they can barely decide if Georgia is worth it and after the presidents idiocy of being lured in to attacking Ossentia he all but proved hes not worth the gamble... nobody wants to back someoen who wants war.
NATO was an alliance AGAINST russia. You can understand why the Russians are wary of an aggressive military alliance developing on their doorstep. Having the US put missiles on their doorstep is easily seen as a deliberately provocative act. That it is a defence against Iranian missiles is something you have to be fairly deluded to take seriously.
Also GW Bush is in no position to lecture anyone about ignoring international law when it suits when the US picks and chooses which to honour and which to ignore altogether, or for going for regime change in a sovereign nation. Any military steps on the part of Nato would lead to full scale european war. It is an EU problem and one where your current administration is likely to make things worse. Cynically one wonders if they see it as a way of weakening the burgeoning european economy and slowing the growth of trade with russia and the EU. I think as time goes on you will see a widening gap between the US and it's european allies. The cold war is over no one wants a real one brought on by grandstanding.
This is a civil war and one that the Georgians started. Whether the georgian prime minister thought the eu and US would back him up militarily and why did he think so if he did is an interesting question.
posted by jester
They ultimately want their people to 'choose' to stay within in their borders and want to be part of a new Russia... but they arent gonna get it with Putin in power. And they wont get it by provoking breakaway countries, all thats gonna do is provoke more tensions.
The south ossetians are russians and want to stay that way not be part of Georgia. that's what started all this in the nineties. Course it's all about oil.
I dont disgaree with you that we need to bring these break away countries under NATO, or some other union of some kind, I personally think its time for the EU to step up, but they wont, they can barely decide if Georgia is worth it and after the presidents idiocy of being lured in to attacking Ossentia he all but proved hes not worth the gamble... nobody wants to back someoen who wants war.
NATO was an alliance AGAINST russia. You can understand why the Russians are wary of an aggressive military alliance developing on their doorstep. Having the US put missiles on their doorstep is easily seen as a deliberately provocative act. That it is a defence against Iranian missiles is something you have to be fairly deluded to take seriously.
Also GW Bush is in no position to lecture anyone about ignoring international law when it suits when the US picks and chooses which to honour and which to ignore altogether, or for going for regime change in a sovereign nation. Any military steps on the part of Nato would lead to full scale european war. It is an EU problem and one where your current administration is likely to make things worse. Cynically one wonders if they see it as a way of weakening the burgeoning european economy and slowing the growth of trade with russia and the EU. I think as time goes on you will see a widening gap between the US and it's european allies. The cold war is over no one wants a real one brought on by grandstanding.
This is a civil war and one that the Georgians started. Whether the georgian prime minister thought the eu and US would back him up militarily and why did he think so if he did is an interesting question.
posted by jester
They ultimately want their people to 'choose' to stay within in their borders and want to be part of a new Russia... but they arent gonna get it with Putin in power. And they wont get it by provoking breakaway countries, all thats gonna do is provoke more tensions.
The south ossetians are russians and want to stay that way not be part of Georgia. that's what started all this in the nineties. Course it's all about oil.
-
Snidely Whiplash
- Posts: 176
- Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:33 pm
Russia invades Georgia
Accountable;951955 wrote: That's because it's so bogged down with all kinds of bureaucracy & departments for jobs they were never commissioned to do. State gov'ts need to take their responsibilities back & free up the federal gov't to stand & protect us from enemies instead of being the enemy.
Bingo....!
That is the consevative principle.... Less federal government, more power to the people on a local government level.... We want Individual freedoms and responsiblilities, and government get the crap out of our way so we can live our lives as we see fit for our families......!!!!
You ROCK dude....!!!! :guitarist
Bingo....!
That is the consevative principle.... Less federal government, more power to the people on a local government level.... We want Individual freedoms and responsiblilities, and government get the crap out of our way so we can live our lives as we see fit for our families......!!!!
You ROCK dude....!!!! :guitarist
-
Snidely Whiplash
- Posts: 176
- Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:33 pm
Russia invades Georgia
Jester;951952 wrote: on a side note:
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/004363.html?wh=wh
Interesting eh?
Very..... Thanks, good post...!
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/004363.html?wh=wh
Interesting eh?
Very.....
Thanks, good post...!-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Russia invades Georgia
Snidely Whiplash;952455 wrote: Bingo....!
That is the consevative principle.... Less federal government, more power to the people on a local government level.... We want Individual freedoms and responsiblilities, and government get the crap out of our way so we can live our lives as we see fit for our families......!!!!
You ROCK dude....!!!! :guitarist
Thanks! :-6:yh_flag
That is the consevative principle.... Less federal government, more power to the people on a local government level.... We want Individual freedoms and responsiblilities, and government get the crap out of our way so we can live our lives as we see fit for our families......!!!!
You ROCK dude....!!!! :guitarist
Thanks! :-6:yh_flag
Russia invades Georgia
Jester;952740 wrote: I cant say I disagree too much but I have a differnt take on Iraq and the reasons we went in. That aside I agree it is a civil war.
Ideally they should be left alone and the old Star Trek Prime Directive should apply from all outside nations. (oh if that were so) If your not familiar with the Prime Directive it is 'do not interfer'.
But we boh know thats not gonna happen, so its either really and truly leave them to figt it out with the russians, which we all know is futile, or assist them, the question is who's gonna assist regardless of rights or perception in the world. The EU seems to have turned a blind eye, there is no other entity except NATO willing to assit in the slightest and even then its in the 'slightest' since most of the former folks who wanted to help them are no posturing away.
By defacto its NATO who will give limited assistance, all subject of course to the other factors in negotiation, IE Missles pointing God knows where, Iran, oil to europe. etc etc etc.
So either the EU steps up, or NATO will at the peril of more war. Which to be perfectly honest is exactly what Russia wants, they dont want to deal with NATO and the west, they want more barganing and economic control in europe proper... buy from them, it will keep them from invading. if of course you want to live like that. Sounds a lot like organized crime, which is pretty much what ran Russia for the last 20-50 years.
Yes I'm a sad almost trekkie (never understood why people want to learn klingon) Leave them alone yes. Any full scale war with Russia will very quickly turn nuclear-especially if the states gets involved. You tend to see things in absolutes, black and white, right or wrong, my way or the high way, I don't think things are quite that simple. You also underestimate the EU. You also forget which nations are in nato-apart from France, canada and the US the eu and nato are almost one and the same. Nato would continue in some from without the US but I doubt it would continue to exist without the EU.
The days of old russia are past how things pan out now will depend on what happens next. A belligerent response makes it harder to talk, at this point threatening the russians won't work because you will have to follow it through. Now tell me is the states ready for a full scale fighting war with Russia up to and including nuclear missiles? Or should we look for better ways to resolve issues?
Many confuse a preference for not going to war except as a last resort with a lack of will to make war when necessary. It's not a confusion the Russians make, I don't think- but seems to be an attitude the current US administration has difficulty understanding when dealing with eu countries.
Came across this McCain says nations don't invade other nations
Maybe it's short term memory loss or something.
Ideally they should be left alone and the old Star Trek Prime Directive should apply from all outside nations. (oh if that were so) If your not familiar with the Prime Directive it is 'do not interfer'.
But we boh know thats not gonna happen, so its either really and truly leave them to figt it out with the russians, which we all know is futile, or assist them, the question is who's gonna assist regardless of rights or perception in the world. The EU seems to have turned a blind eye, there is no other entity except NATO willing to assit in the slightest and even then its in the 'slightest' since most of the former folks who wanted to help them are no posturing away.
By defacto its NATO who will give limited assistance, all subject of course to the other factors in negotiation, IE Missles pointing God knows where, Iran, oil to europe. etc etc etc.
So either the EU steps up, or NATO will at the peril of more war. Which to be perfectly honest is exactly what Russia wants, they dont want to deal with NATO and the west, they want more barganing and economic control in europe proper... buy from them, it will keep them from invading. if of course you want to live like that. Sounds a lot like organized crime, which is pretty much what ran Russia for the last 20-50 years.
Yes I'm a sad almost trekkie (never understood why people want to learn klingon) Leave them alone yes. Any full scale war with Russia will very quickly turn nuclear-especially if the states gets involved. You tend to see things in absolutes, black and white, right or wrong, my way or the high way, I don't think things are quite that simple. You also underestimate the EU. You also forget which nations are in nato-apart from France, canada and the US the eu and nato are almost one and the same. Nato would continue in some from without the US but I doubt it would continue to exist without the EU.
The days of old russia are past how things pan out now will depend on what happens next. A belligerent response makes it harder to talk, at this point threatening the russians won't work because you will have to follow it through. Now tell me is the states ready for a full scale fighting war with Russia up to and including nuclear missiles? Or should we look for better ways to resolve issues?
Many confuse a preference for not going to war except as a last resort with a lack of will to make war when necessary. It's not a confusion the Russians make, I don't think- but seems to be an attitude the current US administration has difficulty understanding when dealing with eu countries.
Came across this McCain says nations don't invade other nations
Maybe it's short term memory loss or something.
-
SuperPowerChina
- Posts: 140
- Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:41 am
Russia invades Georgia
This is Unfair!! Usa invaded Iraq .. Russia invaded Georgia,Why can't China invade some country too? Recommend one?..
Just wait after Olympics.
Which country bullyed China in the old days?
hehehe:sneaky:
Just wait after Olympics.
Which country bullyed China in the old days?
hehehe:sneaky:
Russia invades Georgia
SuperPowerChina;955315 wrote: This is Unfair!! Usa invaded Iraq .. Russia invaded Georgia,Why can't China invade some country too? Recommend one?..
Just wait after Olympics.
Which country bullyed China in the old days?
hehehe:sneaky:
Id really like to see China invade itself.
No one will see that coming !
Just wait after Olympics.
Which country bullyed China in the old days?
hehehe:sneaky:
Id really like to see China invade itself.
No one will see that coming !
I AM AWESOME MAN
Russia invades Georgia
Russia's just recognized the two breakaway regions of Georgia as sovereign nations in their own right and nothing could please me more. Anything that distresses those murdering scum in this White House administration is fine by me and Russia's apparently managed to.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7582181.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7582181.stm
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Russia invades Georgia
Here we go - Putin's comment on the influence the US had on Georgia's decision to attack the separatist enclaves.Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has accused the US of provoking the conflict in Georgia, possibly for domestic election purposes. Mr Putin told CNN US citizens were "in the area" during the conflict over South Ossetia and were "taking direct orders from their leaders". He said his defence officials had told him the provocation was to benefit one of the US presidential candidates.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7586605.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7586605.stm
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Russia invades Georgia
Not a problem. Obama will just fly over and have this ironed out in no time.
Russia invades Georgia
Accountable;966401 wrote: Not a problem. Obama will just fly over and have this ironed out in no time.
Cheney's flying into Georgia this week. It'd be interesting to see a list of administration people who'd visited there in the weeks before their troops were sent into the enclaves, don't you think?
Cheney's flying into Georgia this week. It'd be interesting to see a list of administration people who'd visited there in the weeks before their troops were sent into the enclaves, don't you think?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Russia invades Georgia
spot;966259 wrote: Here we go - Putin's comment on the influence the US had on Georgia's decision to attack the separatist enclaves.Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has accused the US of provoking the conflict in Georgia, possibly for domestic election purposes. Mr Putin told CNN US citizens were "in the area" during the conflict over South Ossetia and were "taking direct orders from their leaders". He said his defence officials had told him the provocation was to benefit one of the US presidential candidates.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7586605.stm
It's amazing the quality of the translator makes to the credibility of the one being translated. Not making any point just an observation. Either the georgian prime minister is an idiot that completely misread the situation or it's cynical manipulation. I sometimes think people look for conspiracies when the answer is just simple stupidity.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7586605.stm
It's amazing the quality of the translator makes to the credibility of the one being translated. Not making any point just an observation. Either the georgian prime minister is an idiot that completely misread the situation or it's cynical manipulation. I sometimes think people look for conspiracies when the answer is just simple stupidity.