Teen Challenges Moment-Of-Silence Law

Sheryl · Post by **Sheryl** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:54 pm

I'm confused Red, are you a believer or are you a Pagan. Sorry to put you on the spot, but one post it's this, and another it's not.

Secondly, prayer has always been in schools, and just recently removed and replaced with the moment of silence. Or atleast that way in my neighborhood. But shhhh don't tell anyone, when it's asked for a moment of silence, the students voluntarily say the Lord's Prayer.

I just don't understand, why my tax money has to be wasted on something that only lasts a minute. It's not mandatory that the students have to pray, it's just the option is there.

theia · Post by **theia** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:56 pm

RedGlitter;746253 wrote: I understand your position. Well, I happen to be a believer but even I don't see a need for public prayer. School is for teaching, church and home are for praying, that's my way of seeing it. I think the respect was built in just fine when we had "separation of church and state" but the combining of the two can only lead to a huge mess and already is.

Red, when you say school is for teaching, what subjects are you thinking about?

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:59 pm

Sheryl;746257 wrote: I'm confused Red, are you a believer or are you a Pagan. Sorry to put you on the spot, but one post it's this, and another it's not.

Secondly, prayer has always been in schools, and just recently removed and replaced with the moment of silence. Or atleast that way in my neighborhood. But shhhh don't tell anyone, when it's asked for a moment of silence, the students voluntarily say the Lord's Prayer.

I just don't understand, why my tax money has to be wasted on something that only lasts a minute. It's not mandatory that the students have to pray, it's just the option is there.

Sheryl- are you telling me that Pagans are not believers?!! Please explain. I hope you do not have the impression we are somehow godless heathens??

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:08 pm

theia;746258 wrote: Red, when you say school is for teaching, what subjects are you thinking about?

Math, language, English or whatever language applies here, spelling, geography, science, subjects such as that. Not religion (excepting how it affects history, etc) unless it's in a religious school.

Sheryl · Post by **Sheryl** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:08 pm

RedGlitter;746260 wrote: Sheryl- are you telling me that Pagans are not believers?!! Please explain. I hope you do not have the impression we are somehow godless heathens??

No it's just that when someone tells me they are a believer, I take it as meaning they believe in God.

Snooze · Post by **Snooze** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:08 pm

I don't really see this as religious. A moment of silence can just be a moment of contemplation, and if the child is from a pagan, Christian, Hindu etc upbringing, that might be how they choose to spend the time... or they might just spend a moment thinking about the cute guy's ass that sits in the back of the class.

I see your point RG, but in this case, I think it's better to save your (you, in general, not you in particular) battles for when they actually make a difference. This seems pretty minor to me.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:11 pm

Sheryl;746265 wrote: No it's just that when someone tells me they are a believer, I take it as meaning they believe in God.

Sheryl I do believe in God. I thought I'd made that obvious with a lot of my posts. I don't believe in the Christian God/God of the Bible, but I certainly believe in God. I am also Pagan which is how i choose to express that belief.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:13 pm

Snooze;746266 wrote: I don't really see this as religious. A moment of silence can just be a moment of contemplation, and if the child is from a pagan, Christian, Hindu etc upbringing, that might be how they choose to spend the time... or they might just spend a moment thinking about the cute guy's ass that sits in the back of the class.

I see your point RG, but in this case, I think it's better to save your (you, in general, not you in particular) battles for when they actually make a difference. This seems pretty minor to me.

But it is about religion and that's why the uproar.

I appreciate that you and others see it as a minor thing, even if I don't see it that way.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:19 pm

RedGlitter;746260 wrote: Sheryl- are you telling me that Pagans are not believers?!! Please explain. I hope you do not have the impression we are somehow godless heathens??

oh, are you a pagan, red?I hadn't realised till now, sorry.Now I understand a bit more of the conversation we were having about good and evil, and your views on it.I know some pagans, all really nice people.I think people get the wrong idea about pagans. has that been your experience?

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:20 pm

answering my own post - i can see from the posts in answer to you here that there is some confusion.

Sheryl · Post by **Sheryl** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:21 pm

I see. :wah: Sorry Red, it's just Christians are also referred to as believers. So you had me wondering.

Sheryl · Post by **Sheryl** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:23 pm

RedGlitter;746268 wrote: But it is about religion and that's why the uproar.

I appreciate that you and others see it as a minor thing, even if I don't see it that way.

I just think with other problems with our schools. Such as the fact we ranked poorly compared to other nations in subjects of math and science, school violence, and all the other multitude of problems in our education system, we are wasting time arguing something as minute as this.

Snooze · Post by **Snooze** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:31 pm

Maybe it just shows how shallow I am, but when we'd have a moment of silence in school for whatever reason, I'd spend most of the time wondering what I was supposed to be thinking about.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:32 pm

lemon_and_mint;746270 wrote: oh, are you a pagan, red?I hadn't realised till now, sorry.Now I understand a bit more of the conversation we were having about good and evil, and your views on it.I know some pagans, all really nice people.I think people get the wrong idea about pagans. has that been your experience?

That was a good conversation too, I thought.

Actually, I have had little problem from others about being pagan; I've been lucky compared to some. I think there is much confusion and a lot of people still think pagans are satanists or that we are bad people, so I welcome the opportunities to clear that up. I think most people just don't ask if they are confused about something,which is probably why I haven't encountered a lot of resistance about it.

Sheryl;746273 wrote: I see. :wah: Sorry Red, it's just Christians are also referred to as believers. So you had me wondering.

Oh...so that's mainly a christian term then? I can see your confusion now. I must admit you kind of startled me at first, like you can either believe in God or you can be...pagan."

No problem.

Snooze;746266 wrote: I don't really see this as religious. A moment of silence can just be a moment of contemplation, and if the child is from a pagan, Christian, Hindu etc upbringing, that might be how they choose to spend the time... or they might just spend a moment thinking about the cute guy's ass that sits in the back of the class.

I see your point RG, but in this case, I think it's better to save your (you, in general, not you in particular) battles for when they actually make a difference. This seems pretty minor to me.

That's true Snooze, I'll agree to that, You do have to pick your battles in life. That's something I've learned time and again.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:34 pm

Snooze;746279 wrote: Maybe it just shows how shallow I am, but when we'd have a moment of silence in school for whatever reason, I'd spend most of the time wondering what I was supposed to be thinking about.

I always just waited for it to be over, I mean it seemed so short I didn't see what productivity we could possibly get out of it.

Sheryl · Post by **Sheryl** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:37 pm

RedGlitter;746281 wrote: I always just waited for it to be over, I mean it seemed so short I didn't see what productivity we could possibly get out of it.

you could get the first note of the day passed! not that I ever passed notes in school or anything bad like that!

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:41 pm

I never understood some people's mentality where they assume something without checking.

Maybe I'm just very open, but if someone came to me and said "I understand you think xyz, would you mind explaining why?", and the person was really curious and polite, I would have no problem in telling them.

And on my side, I've always considered that people are happy to explain things if you are polite to them, so in my dealings with muslims, for example, I've just said to them, "I'd like to know a bit more about your religion, please could you tell me about it".

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:44 pm

Even satanists have confusion over what they believe, I have spoken to some, but understandably most people change the subject quickly.They have extremists in their religion, but the moderates tend to steer clear of them, their actions are not representative of the whole.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:45 pm

Sheryl;746283 wrote: you could get the first note of the day passed! not that I ever passed notes in school or anything bad like that!

Hehe...I bet you didn't!

......

I was a very adept note passer. *brag*

lemon_and_mint;746285 wrote: I never understood some people's mentality where they assume something without checking.

Maybe I'm just very open, but if someone came to me and said "I understand you think xyz, would you mind explaining why?", and the person was really curious and polite, I would have no problem in telling them.

And on my side, I've always considered that people are happy to explain things if you are polite to them, so in my dealings with muslims, for example, I've just said to them, "I'd like to know a bit more about your religion, please could you tell me about it".

Ideally that's how it should be. I think a lot of people are used to being disparaged for their beliefs so they're hesitant to talk about them...like it's some sort of trap. I would always ask my Witness friend questions but sadly that only opened up ports for her to try and convert me and we didn't stay friends.

WonderWendy3 · Post by **WonderWendy3** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 6:58 pm

RedGlitter;746130 wrote: That's going to look sarcastic so I'll try to clarify what I mean.

I don't think prayer in schools is going to stop the shootings.

I realize you are christian but I don't understand why your blood would be boiling over anything said here. Are we not ALL allowed to our opinions? As much as I disagree with the christian concepts offered here I don't have problems with those who hold them.

O'Hare was a deeply unlikable person, granted but not because she was an atheist. I don't think she was wrong to try to remove prayer from schools. Why should the praying person's "rights" be any more important than the non praying person's "rights"? Why can't people pray in their own mind? I have always been able to and never required a separate special public minute to talk with God so I don't understand anyone else's need to or their complaint about doing so? What exactly is the complaint about that?

This is why I don't post in most of your threads.....you asked in the opening thread, what I thought and you also mentioned in a later post than the one I've quoted here that we are just discussing this.

We aren't discussing anymore, I disagree with your opinion as most of the time I do, and you with mine.....

I DO believe that there is a connection with taking God out of the schools to kids shooting their classmates for funzies....I DO believe that our children should have a moment of reflection/prayer/thinking or just a moment to catch their breath. We can pray anytime, yes that is true, there is NOTHING wrong with setting a time aside in the day to do this.

You can reply to this, as I know you will and I am sure you might use this guy

as you've used a few times in reply to my posts.....I will read it, but I will not respond to you again. I don't feel it is productive to argue with you....you feel you are right and that is the end of the story.

I disagree with you and that is the end of mine.

Merry Christmas!:-4

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:46 pm

Whatever W. Maybe you should stay in fluff and I'll take serious for $500.

Happy Yule! :rolleyes:

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:15 pm

RedGlitter;746610 wrote: Whatever W. Maybe you should stay in fluff and I'll take serious for $500.

Happy Yule! :rolleyes:

I found a large percentage of non-fluff in what WW wrote. Figuring out what is turning children into murdering psychopaths, whether religious or not, would be a serious good use of time and energy.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:21 pm

koan;746965 wrote: I found a large percentage of non-fluff in what WW wrote. Figuring out what is turning children into murdering psychopaths, whether religious or not, would be a serious good use of time and energy.

Don't worry about it, Koan. We've already taken care of it between ourselves.

But I think there are already people looking into those things anyway. The way I see it, with what now? 6 Billion people on Earth, there are enough causes for everyone and enough people who care enough to join their chosen cause.

HumanBeast · Post by **HumanBeast** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:00 pm

It's dumb that a lawsuit had to be taken to correct this. People can have a moment of silence anytime at home.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:12 pm

A moment of silence doesn't prompt parents to instill morality and virtue in their children.

twizzel · Post by **twizzel** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:32 pm

RedGlitter;713612 wrote: What do you think about this?

Teen Challenges Moment-Of-Silence Law

Friday, October 26, 2007 11:11 PM

CHICAGO -- A 14-year-old girl and her outspoken atheist father filed a federal lawsuit Friday challenging a new Illinois law requiring a brief period of prayer or reflective silence at the start of every school day.

The lawsuit asks the court to declare the law unconstitutional, said attorney Gregory Kulis, who represents Dawn Sherman, a freshman at Buffalo Grove High School, and her father Robert Sherman, a radio talk show host.

Kulis said the law is an attempt to inject religion into public schools in violation of the First Amendment. The suit also seeks a temporary restraining order to halt schools' obeying the law until the case is decided. A judge will consider that request at a hearing Monday.

The lawsuit names Gov. Rod Blagojevich and officials of Township High School District 214 as defendants. School district spokeswoman Venetia Miles said schools will continue to comply with the law.

Blagojevich spokesman Abby Ottenhoff said the law was passed over the governor's veto.

''We don't believe requiring time for reflection is the role of government,'' Ottenhoff said.

Sherman said he went to court after he asked the school board to ignore the law and was rebuffed. The school district informed him it would carry out the moment of silence during third period, beginning Tuesday, the lawsuit said.

''What we object to is Christians passing a law that requires the public school teacher to stop teaching during instructional time, paid for by the taxpayers, so that Christians can pray,'' Sherman told The Associated Press.

An Illinois law called the Silent Reflection and Student Prayer Act already allowed schools to observe a moment of silence if they wanted. A new measure changed just a single word: ''may'' observe became ''shall'' observe.

The Illinois law originally passed during the spring legislative session, but Blagojevich vetoed it, saying he had doubts about its constitutionality. Lawmakers overrode the veto this month.

It's not Sherman's first church-and-state lawsuit and not the first to involve his children. He has sought removal of religious symbols from city seals and a ban on Boy Scout meetings at public schools.

Some school administrators have complained the law is too ill-defined and puts many teachers and some students in an awkward position.

The Shermans may have legitimate concerns, but they are suing the wrong party when they target the school district, said Brian McCarthy, an attorney for the district.

''The General Assembly _ for better, worse, foolish or wise _ passed this law and it's not up to school districts to pick and choose which laws they follow,'' McCarthy said. ''He needs to go after the entity that enforces that law.''
All western law is based on Gods law and according to Henry De Brackton chief justise to Henry 3rd the King is Gods Lt and rules England in Gods Name and according to Gods laws. America like England is a Christian country and should teach Chritianity in its schools as should we. We go to school to be taught what we do with it after we leave school is another matter

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:35 pm

twizzel;749026 wrote: All western law is based on Gods law and according to Henry De Brackton chief justise to Henry 3rd the King is Gods Lt and rules England in Gods Name and according to Gods laws. America like England is a Christian country and should teach Chritianity in its schools as should we. We go to school to be taught what we do with it after we leave school is another matter
Whose Christianity?

The Catholic?

The Evangelical?

The Davidian?