Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?

Post by **spot** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:28 pm

YZGI;703637 wrote: I don't think the majority in the US want to become a Spanish speaking country anymore or less than I think the majority in the UK want to become lets say a French or Arabic speaking country.That's an entirely different matter to welcoming Spanish or French or Arabic speaking minorities as ethnic subgroups in their own right, and encouraging them to retain a distinct flavour of their own instead of becoming indistinguishable. I've enjoyed picking up snippets of Urdu and Hindi, I have a three-CD set of Arabic primers with their booklet next to me as I type. This isn't about takeover, it's not either this or that, it's about both side by side. Drop your extremist posturing and we'll at least be in the same discussion.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:31 pm

YZGI;703637 wrote: I don't think the majority in the US want to become a Spanish speaking country anymore or less than I think the majority in the UK want to become lets say a French or Arabic speaking country.

Does anyone seriously think that either of those is a possibility?

OK, there are enclaves within the US where Spanish is the predominant language just as there are enclaves within the UK where Urdu or Mandarin or Polish are the language of choice but to imagine that those areas would spread to cover the entire country is totally unreasonable.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:22 pm

Okay, it looks as though I misunderstood so here is my opinion.

If Mexicans want to live here (actually any nationality) I really don't care what language they speak. I do think it would be beneficial to learn some English for their own good and the good of commerce between the two languages. I myself have been working on my Spanish for quite some time for my own benefit and the benefit of my company and I have no problem with that. I also do not care if people speak their own language around me even though I don't understand it. I figure it is easier for them to comprehend what they are trying to convey to each other in their own language. I do however wish that the prominate language in the US continue to be English. Now if we were over run with Mexican or French speaking Canadians then I suppose I would have to comply with the prominate language so that I could conduct commerce but I would rather not.

Post by **spot** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:24 pm

Now try getting RedGlitter to agree with you.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:31 pm

spot;703709 wrote: Now try getting RedGlitter to agree with you.
Maybe after I have a couple of beers.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:45 pm

YZGI;703704 wrote: Okay, it looks as though I misunderstood so here is my opinion.

If Mexicans want to live here (actually any nationality) I really don't care what language they speak. I do think it would be beneficial to learn some English for their own good and the good of commerce between the two languages. I myself have been working on my Spanish for quite some time for my own benefit and the benefit of my company and I have no problem with that. I also do not care if people speak their own language around me even though I don't understand it. I figure it is easier for them to comprehend what they are trying to convey to each other in their own language. I do however wish that the prominate language in the US continue to be English. Now if we were over run with Mexican or French speaking Canadians then I suppose I would have to comply with the prominate language so that I could conduct commerce but I would rather not.

The first part is perfectly reasonable - people will generally communicate in whichever language allows the best comprehension between them.

As to the second part :-

Bryn Mawr;703656 wrote: Does anyone seriously think that either of those is a possibility?

OK, there are enclaves within the US where Spanish is the predominant language just as there are enclaves within the UK where Urdu or Mandarin or Polish are the language of choice but to imagine that those areas would spread to cover the entire country is totally unreasonable.

There is no possible way that the Mexicans or the French speaking Canadians could possibly overrun the US to such an extent that English speakers become Ghettoized.

The current US population is just over 300 million of whom just under 42 million are Hispanic.

The current population of Mexico is just over 100 million.

Even if every Mexican managed to move into the US tomorrow, they would not become a majority so I really do think the situation is being overegged somewhat.

Bored_Wombat · Post by **Bored_Wombat** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:46 pm

YZGI;703528 wrote: If someone starts speaking Commanche around me, I put on my hat, jump on my horse and skeedadle the hell out of there..
That's sort of my point. Demands that these languages must not be spoken has driven them and so the culture with which they are integral to extinction.

This is a horrible thing. Once lost a culture and language cannot be recovered.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:53 pm

Bored_Wombat;703729 wrote: That's sort of my point. Demands that these languages must not be spoken has driven them and so the culture with which they are integral to extinction.

This is a horrible thing. Once lost a culture and language cannot be recovered.

You will have to forgive my humor at times. It was not meant literally it was meant tongue firmly planted in cheek.

Bryn Mawr;703727 wrote: The first part is perfectly reasonable - people will generally communicate in whichever language allows the best comprehension between them.

As to the second part :-

There is no possible way that the Mexicans or the French speaking Canadians could possibly overrun the US to such an extent that English speakers become Ghettoized.

The current US population is just over 300 million of whom just under 42 million are Hispanic.

The current population of Mexico is just over 100 million.

Even if every Mexican managed to move into the US tomorrow, they would not become a majority so I really do think the situation is being overegged somewhat.
See my sentence above.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:54 pm

Bored_Wombat;703729 wrote: That's sort of my point. Demands that these languages must not be spoken has driven them and so the culture with which they are integral to extinction.

This is a horrible thing. Once lost a culture and language cannot be recovered.
And besides, I don't own a horse.:wah:

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:04 pm

YZGI;703714 wrote: Maybe after I have a couple of beers.

Hey. I heard that. :wah:

Bored_Wombat;703729 wrote: That's sort of my point. Demands that these languages must not be spoken has driven them and so the culture with which they are integral to extinction.

This is a horrible thing. Once lost a culture and language cannot be recovered.

Nobody said a thing about demanding they not be spoken. Only you are saying that. What I and some others have said is that it would be considerate if people would speak English in public when they live in America, a prominently English speaking country. Nobody said make a law or noose someone if they don't have the manners to do it or any bs like that.

When I go across the river to the casinos and the mostly Hispanic housekeeping staff gets off work and they pile in the elevators and they start speaking in Spanish to each other while looking at me or the others in the elevator, that is damned rude. It's not about 'eavesdropping" as BW pointed out, it's about having courtesy for others. What is so hard for you to understand about that? Speak your own language in your own home, teach it to your kids, whatever, but know enough English (or whatever is the language of the country you live in) to communicate properly with others.

It was asked earlier by Spot why I cannot take criticism in regard to the white supremacist thing. Simply said that's not criticism, those are fighting words. It's a plain insult and i don't accept that. Thats why. Criticize me all you want but don't be insinuating I wear a bedsheet. That is below lowdown.

Post by **spot** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:15 pm

RedGlitter;703745 wrote: Nobody said a thing about demanding they not be spoken. Only you are saying that. What I and some others have said is that it would be considerate if people would speak English in public when they live in America, a prominently English speaking country. Nobody said make a law or noose someone if they don't have the manners to do it or any bs like that.

When I go across the river to the casinos and the mostly Hispanic housekeeping staff gets off work and they pile in the elevators and they start speaking in Spanish to each other while looking at me or the others in the elevator, that is damned rude. It's not about 'eavesdropping" as BW pointed out, it's about having courtesy for others. What is so hard for you to understand about that? Speak your own language in your own home, teach it to your kids, whatever, but know enough English (or whatever is the language of the country you live in) to communicate properly with others.

It was asked earlier by Spot why I cannot take criticism in regard to the white supremacist thing. Simply said that's not criticism, those are fighting words. It's a plain insult and i don't accept that. Thats why. Criticize me all you want but don't be insinuating I wear a bedsheet. That is below lowdown.

I don't need to assert anything, all anyone needs to do is read what you've written in this thread. The quote above is enough in its own right. I agree it represents your position. It needs no comment from me to make it any plainer.

Bored_Wombat · Post by **Bored_Wombat** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:18 pm

YZGI;703740 wrote: And besides, I don't own a horse.:wah:

Sure, I can see you were joking, and that's good - and amusing enough in its own way even if I didn't actually roll about on the floor in hysterics.

But the subtext: that language doesn't actually exists except for back in the days of the wild west is also salient, and not irrelevant to the thread.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:28 pm

spot;703750 wrote: I don't need to assert anything, all anyone needs to do is read what you've written in this thread. The quote above is enough in its own right. I agree it represents your position. It needs no comment from me to make it any plainer.

Spot you're just bound and determined to show me up as the devil's spawn, aren't you? Well fine then, just leave it.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:36 pm

YZGI;703736 wrote: You will have to forgive my humor at times. It was not meant literally it was meant tongue firmly planted in cheek.

See my sentence above.

:p :wah:

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:58 pm

RedGlitter;703745 wrote: Hey. I heard that. :wah:

Nobody said a thing about demanding they not be spoken. Only you are saying that. What I and some others have said is that it would be considerate if people would speak English in public when they live in America, a prominently English speaking country. Nobody said make a law or noose someone if they don't have the manners to do it or any bs like that.

When I go across the river to the casinos and the mostly Hispanic housekeeping staff gets off work and they pile in the elevators and they start speaking in Spanish to each other while looking at me or the others in the elevator, that is damned rude. It's not about 'eavesdropping" as BW pointed out, it's about having courtesy for others. What is so hard for you to understand about that? Speak your own language in your own home, teach it to your kids, whatever, but know enough English (or whatever is the language of the country you live in) to communicate properly with others.

It was asked earlier by Spot why I cannot take criticism in regard to the white supremacist thing. Simply said that's not criticism, those are fighting words. It's a plain insult and i don't accept that. Thats why. Criticize me all you want but don't be insinuating I wear a bedsheet. That is below lowdown.

As I've said before, people will, quite naturally, communicate in the language that conveys the maximum amount of information with the minimum amount of effort.

It's not being rude or discourteous, it's the very nature of communication.

Where I think your argument should be is not people talking amongst themselves in their own language but those that, having lived in a culture for years, refuse to learn enough of the local language to communicate outside their expatriate colony.

Not to do so is straight stupidity - we all need all of the survival skills we can get. Sadly, as I have also previresly mentioned, the ex-pat Brits in Spain are a prime example.

Accept those talking amongst themselves - that's exactly what you'd do in the same circumstance.

Have tolerance for those recently arrived, of whatever age, for they might be trying their hardest.

If you must, criticize those who do it deliberately but I think you'll find they are fewer than you think.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:04 pm

Bryn Mawr;703766 wrote:

Where I think your argument should be is not people talking amongst themselves in their own language but those that, having lived in a culture for years, refuse to learn enough of the local language to communicate outside their expatriate colony.

I'll agree with that.

Accept those talking amongst themselves - that's exactly what you'd do in the same circumstance.

Have tolerance for those recently arrived, of whatever age, for they might be trying their hardest.

And I'll agree with that too.

If you must, criticize those who do it deliberately but I think you'll find they are fewer than you think.
.......

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:47 pm

Well I have read most of this thread and I will agree with Red. This is a complicated issue that has no resolution in sight soon.

I can tell as a US citizen that lives maybe 20 minutes from the US/Mexico border that the influx of Illegals has just about brought the Social Services in my State and City to a stand still. We can't continue to allow them to come in as illegals period. If they want to enter legally excellent and become citizens that is the way it should be, and has to be at some point in the future.

I'm 60 years old and as a senior and a native San Diegian my ability to gain services that are due me is an on going battle daily. This is an absolute shame in this country that Seniors are treated as less than illegals. Of course that is my opinion.

If I were an Illegal, or a new immigrant I would be given the red carpet treatment and offered housing, food, clothing, free medical care you name it they get it. Now there is something very wrong with this no matter how you look at it.

Your right our Goverment is to blame for allowing it to happen. It is our Government that has to stop it. If you want to live in the US work your ass off like most of us have, to have what little we have day in and day out. I'm tired of paying for their endless free services out of my tax dollar. Just not RIGHT..

I have traveled extensively in Mexico and I have seen every walk of life. The rich get richer and the poor have absolutely nothing. Is this our problem in the US I think not. Their Government has a duty to its people which in my travels isn't being done even on the most basic levels.

OK I'm ready to be ripped to shreds..

Post by **spot** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:27 am

CARLA;703822 wrote: I'm tired of paying for their endless free services out of my tax dollar. It's a case of repeat a big lie often enough and it has to be true, Carla? You really do believe that there are endless free services available to undocumented aliens in the USA, and nothing anyone writes to the contrary will make up for the propaganda you've swallowed over the years from bigots who want you to think it.

Here, http://www.psywarrior.com/Goebbels.html is where propaganda came from. You might like to consider the question raised there - "Whether or when parts of it should be utilized in a democratic society are profound and disturbing problems of a political and ethical nature."

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:08 am

Bryn Mawr;703766 wrote: As I've said before, people will, quite naturally, communicate in the language that conveys the maximum amount of information with the minimum amount of effort.

It's not being rude or discourteous, it's the very nature of communication.

Where I think your argument should be is not people talking amongst themselves in their own language but those that, having lived in a culture for years, refuse to learn enough of the local language to communicate outside their expatriate colony.

Not to do so is straight stupidity - we all need all of the survival skills we can get. Sadly, as I have also previresly mentioned, the ex-pat Brits in Spain are a prime example.

Accept those talking amongst themselves - that's exactly what you'd do in the same circumstance.

Have tolerance for those recently arrived, of whatever age, for they might be trying their hardest.

If you must, criticize those who do it deliberately but I think you'll find they are fewer than you think.

Good post!!

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:10 am

Bored_Wombat;703751 wrote: Sure, I can see you were joking, and that's good - and amusing enough in its own way even if I didn't actually roll about on the floor in hysterics.

But the subtext: that language doesn't actually exists except for back in the days of the wild west is also salient, and not irrelevant to the thread.
Or, sometimes a joke is just a joke and not meant to have a subtext.

Subtext: I thought it was damn funny. Did anyone else?:wah:

sunny104 · Post by **sunny104** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:39 am

Que?

:yh_giggle

LilacDragon · Post by **LilacDragon** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:26 am

I find it interesting that MOST of the posters who have a problem with RG's opinion on this subject live outside of the U.S. And those same people are willing to tell us how we have swallowed a bunch of propaganda. Yeah. I can see where you might believe that. But then, you probably haven't sat in a U.S. emergency room for hours behind a dozen people who speak no English, are most likely illegal (it really isn't polite to ask) and knowing that not only are you going to be billed for YOUR visit - but your tax dollars are going to pay for THEIRS.

But yeah, you are right it was probably just propaganda from the big political machine.

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:29 am

My dear Spot I have seen it with my big green eyes. They acquire fake SSI cards, driver licences, credit card you name it they are instructed how to get them.

I have sat in the Medical Offices, and the SSI office many times with friend and family trying to get them help when it was needed. We had to pretty much beg.

The rest got it handed to them on a silver platter. So I know of what I speak it is a sad situation, and it is getting worse. Why do you think they want to come here, they know damn good and well what to do and how to do it once they hit our soil. Or better yet they cross the border to have a baby on this side and bingo they world is a free ride from that moment on illegal or otherwise.

Sure I feel bad for those that die trying to get across the desert. For God sakes it a desert you don't have to be a genius to know that. If your not prepared you will die be you an illegal or a legal citizen the desert is not to be taken lightly.

Sorry I live in the middle of it each and every day spot no statistics can even begin to show the truth of the problem.

It's a case of repeat a big lie often enough and it has to be true, Carla? You really do believe that there are endless free services available to undocumented aliens in the USA, and nothing anyone writes to the contrary will make up for the propaganda you've swallowed over the years from bigots who want you to think it.

Post by **spot** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:39 am

So there aren't actually endless free services legally available, just totally inept administrators turning a deliberate blind eye to criminality and a politicized police system with orders not to enforce the law? The two pictures are completely incompatible, Carla. Your federal government is complicit in these abuses, it's not accidental that it goes on year after year without being stopped.

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:07 am

You are so right it goes on day in and day out. You must understand they are overwhelming our system any attempt to do the right things is buried. You can't harrass them, ask question, or demand anything of them you will end up behind bars. If you work in a hospital you have to treat them you can't turn them away. For the most part that is where the free ride starts.

So there aren't actually endless free services legally available, just totally inept administrators turning a deliberate blind eye to criminality and a politicized police system with orders not to enforce the law? The two pictures are completely incompatible, Carla. Your federal government is complicit in these abuses, it's not accidental that it goes on year after year without being stopped.

Post by **spot** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:12 am

CARLA;703961 wrote: You are so right it goes on day in and day out. You must understand they are overwhelming our system any attempt to do the right things is buried. You can't harrass them, ask question, or demand anything of them you will end up behind bars. If you work in a hospital you have to treat them you can't turn them away. For the most part that is where the free ride starts.

Keep going, Carla. Whose fault is it that expulsion of undocumented aliens from the country is so minimal. Are you going to blame the ACLU for that, or are you going to hold the Federal Government responsible? Why are there any undocumented aliens in the country at all? Your Federal Government just blew $450 billion to kill 4,000 of its own servicemen abroad, and it can't expel undocumented aliens? The truth is they have no desire to and you're not demanding it.

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:19 am

You nailed it Spot it is sad but true. I'm demanding it but my one voice isn't enough. We talk a good show but when we need to stand together we all have to go shopping, or become silent..:wah: Don't get me started about the ACLU..

The truth is they have no desire to and you're not demanding it.

Post by **spot** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:27 am

CARLA;703967 wrote: Don't get me started about the ACLU..

I'm surprised I don't get slapped sometimes, to be honest.

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:29 am

Oh Spot I can honestly say there have been times I would have loved to slap you..

I'm surprised I don't get slapped sometimes, to be honest.

Post by **spot** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:38 am

CARLA;703972 wrote: Oh Spot I can honestly say there have been times I would have loved to slap you..

Hang on, I've got just the thing somewhere - my mum was always telling me I had a cheek...

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:26 am

spot;703964 wrote: Keep going, Carla. Whose fault is it that expulsion of undocumented aliens from the country is so minimal. Are you going to blame the ACLU for that, or are you going to hold the Federal Government responsible? Why are there any undocumented aliens in the country at all? Your Federal Government just blew $450 billion to kill 4,000 of its own servicemen abroad, and it can't expel undocumented aliens? The truth is they have no desire to and you're not demanding it.

So very, very true. How naive it is to simply place the blame entirely on the illegal immigrants. It's the American government who is truly betraying its people.

And by the way. Let's not kid ourselves into thinking that if any of us had moved illegally into a country to better our situations and could get free health care in the process, that most of us would take the moral high ground and say, "no thank you. I'm here illegally. Just let me die."

Please.

The truth of the matter is that we are all in our wonderfully comfy lives and are able to talk about "these terrible people" because we are not in their shoes. One of the major downfalls of the human race has always been the lack of empathy and these posts truly highlight that downfall right down to the petty belief of thinking it's rude that others speak in a different language in public to placing sole blame of the illegal immigrant epidemic on the immigrants.

The problem with America is also highlighted in these posts. We, as a people, can not get together and agree on anything. We are concerned more with our own interests and maintaining our own comfortable way of life. Of course it's easy for immigrants to take advantage of such a divided nation.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:17 am

CARLA;703961 wrote: You are so right it goes on day in and day out. You must understand they are overwhelming our system any attempt to do the right things is buried. You can't harrass them, ask question, or demand anything of them you will end up behind bars. If you work in a hospital you have to treat them you can't turn them away. For the most part that is where the free ride starts.

Surely :-

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... ostcount=1

shows how easily they can be removed from the system and :-

http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...l?cs=46992 6&

shows that your hospitals can turn anyone they want away.

It would appear that they get nothing that they're not allowed to get.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:02 am

Speaking of fake social security cards Carla, I was in the store recently and two Mexican guys were in there. For some reason that I don't know, the clerk at the deli required the one guy's birthdate. The guy didn't know his own date of birth. The two guys exchanged funny looks. Finally he opened his wallet to check "his" ID. I sat there thinking "Yeah....bet that was fake."

Post by **spot** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:12 am

RedGlitter;704100 wrote: Finally he opened his wallet to check "his" ID. I sat there thinking "Yeah....bet that was fake."

That very thing happened to me in France once - could I remember the French for Eighteenth of August? It had gone completely out of my head, I had to look at the registration form to read it aloud.

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:41 am

It is always so much easier to assume something about a situation that we probably know very little about.

Red, it's not only Mexicans or other immigrants who scam the system. Americans do it as well. I don't hearing any b****ing about that.

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:35 pm

LadyBug I would watch who you call naive, or ignorant. Until you live in a border town as I have for 60 years you have no idea what your talking about period. I clearly stated it was our GOVERNMENTS fault this is happening period. I will support anyone who has needs help as long as they go through legal channels.

Don't cross the border on Monday to have your baby so it will be an American Citizen so you can get access to all our Social Services on Tuesday. Then send the money I pay in taxes to your family back in Mexico. Sorry I draw the line. Despite what you think of illegals they aren't model people they will do what ever it take to get a free ride, or they wouldn't be coming in illegally.

So very, very true. How naive it is to simply place the blame entirely on the illegal immigrants. It's the American government who is truly betraying its people.

Yes I agree there are Mexican's, and other immigrants, and yes we US Citizens take part in it as well. For me all of it needs to be stopped. I don't care who you are illegal, immigrant, or US citizen the free rides have to stop, we tax paying citizen are paying for their services which we can't get.

Red, it's not only Mexicans or other immigrants who scam the system. Americans do it as well. I don't hearing any b****ing about that.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:01 pm

I went with my German friend to Phoenix for her to receive her citizenship. She came here legally and studied her butt off to learn about the US. She spoke wonderful English with a lovely German accent. She also taught me a little German and I would help her when she came across English words or expressions she didn't understand. A very good friend. I was so proud to be there when she took her oath. I considered it an honor that she would want to have me there the minute she became an American citizen. There were approximately thirty or forty people there to take their oath. The entire ceremony (if you could call it that, it wasn't very formal or particularly beautiful) was conducted in English and the oath was given in English. All the applicants responded in English. The pledge was conducted in English. Now why do you suppose that was?

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:09 pm

Red bravo to your friend she is now a legal citizen of the US. :yh_clap:yh_clap

I went with my German friend to Phoenix for her to receive her citizenship. She came here legally and studied her butt off to learn about the US. She spoke wonderful English with a lovely German accent. She also taught me a little German and I would help her when she came across English words or expressions she didn't understand. A very good friend. I was so proud to be there when she took her oath. I considered it an honor that she would want to have me there the minute she became an American citizen. There were approximately thirty or forty people there to take their oath. The entire ceremony (if you could call it that, it wasn't very formal or particularly beautiful) was conducted in English and the oath was given in English. All the applicants responded in English. The pledge was conducted in English. Now why do you suppose that was?

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:22 pm

RedGlitter;704336 wrote: The entire ceremony (if you could call it that, it wasn't very formal or particularly beautiful) was conducted in English and the oath was given in English. All the applicants responded in English. The pledge was conducted in English. Now why do you suppose that was?

Congratulations on your friend's citizenship. I can only imagine how special a moment it would be.

But I'm missing your point. So they all spoke in English. Okay. How does that translate into speaking any other language in public to others who understand is a bad thing? Apparently I'm missing the whole boat on this debate. It's one thing to personally consider it rude to speak in another language in public, but it's really just hypersensitivity to believe it shouldn't be done whatsoever.

I was thinking about that post where you stated some girls were in an elevator with you and were speaking Spanish and looking at you. I'm assuming you thought they must have been insulting you. If so, would it make you feel better to be insulted in English? Does that make it any more right? Or were you just ticked off because you couldn't understand their insult and therefore respond with an insult of your own?

The world does not revolve around you or me or anyone. Therefore, it isn't necessary for us to understand conversations that don't involve us. The only plausible reason for wanting to understand every word that is being spoken around you is so you have a firm grasp of your surroundings, but even that seems like a heightened sense of paranoia and need for control.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:58 pm

laneybug;704368 wrote: Congratulations on your friend's citizenship. I can only imagine how special a moment it would be.

But I'm missing your point. So they all spoke in English. Okay. How does that translate into speaking any other language in public to others who understand is a bad thing? Apparently I'm missing the whole boat on this debate. It's one thing to personally consider it rude to speak in another language in public, but it's really just hypersensitivity to believe it shouldn't be done whatsoever.

I don't believe I ever said it shouldn't be done whatsoever. Where did I say that Laney? I would think my point was pretty obvious. They didn't have a German translator for my friend or a Spanish translator for the Hispanic people or one for the Asian guy...presumably because this is an English speaking country. They were expected to know enough English to be able to answer questions and take their oath and communicate reasonably. So why is it wrong to expect those same citizens to continue speaking the common (notice I said common and not officially recognized) language of the country they live in? We didn't cater to them when they became citizens so why should we be expected to now. Why must our government run reams of paperwork off in 15 different languages because those people won't be bothered to learn English?

I was thinking about that post where you stated some girls were in an elevator with you and were speaking Spanish and looking at you. I'm assuming you thought they must have been insulting you. If so, would it make you feel better to be insulted in English? Does that make it any more right? Or were you just ticked off because you couldn't understand their insult and therefore respond with an insult of your own?

You seem to want to excuse the need for basic manners in our society. Yes it pissed me off because they were obviously talking about me yet I did not know what they were saying. However smirks and sneers and laughter is understandable in any language. If they had thought I might know Spanish they would probably not have done that. And yes, if you're going to have the stupidity to insult someone, do it so they can understand you and put you in your place instead of this other chickenshit manner. What's so hard for you to comprehend about basic courtesy?

The world does not revolve around you or me or anyone. Therefore, it isn't necessary for us to understand conversations that don't involve us. The only plausible reason for wanting to understand every word that is being spoken around you is so you have a firm grasp of your surroundings, but even that seems like a heightened sense of paranoia and need for control.

Laney once again, you're laughably wrong. The world revolves around you, me and everyone else. People have no right to stand there and talk about someone when they are plainly heard. It's rude. I don't care where you come from, it's rude. Nothing you can say in the way of paranoia or any of your other poppycock is going to change the fact that rude is as rude does. I don't see what's so difficult for you to understand about that.

KB. · Post by **KB.** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:00 pm

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek frame,

with conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gate shall stand

a mighty woman with a torch

whose flame is imprisoned lighting,

and her name is Mother of Exiles.

From her beacon-hand glows

world-wide welcome;

her mild eyes command the air-bridged harbor

that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands your storied pomp!"

cries she with silent lips.

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:11 pm

KB this is beautiful and I wish it was as simple as some beautifully written words.

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek frame,

with conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gate shall stand

a mighty woman with a torch

whose flame is imprisoned lighting,

and her name is Mother of Exiles.

From her beacon-hand glows

world-wide welcome;

her mild eyes command the air-bridged harbor

that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands your storied pomp!"

cries she with silent lips.

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:41 pm

Laneyb & Others

This is not a DEBATE..

A debate needs a winner & a loser - this a discussion -- opinions

So your right - you don't get it.. you lose..

Patsy

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:13 pm

Patsy Warnick;704391 wrote: Laneyb & Others

This is not a DEBATE..

A debate needs a winner & a loser - this a discussion -- opinions

So your right - you don't get it.. you lose..

Patsy

I don't think a debate needs a winner and a loser. A debate is simply an open exchange of ideas and opinions, usually differing ones. I don't need to win and it's alright if people think I've lost.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:27 pm

Laneyb

You won't give this a damn break will ya??

You made a comment that this thread was a debate - its not

Thread open to discussion - which is ones opinion whether you agree with that opinion or not its an OPINION..

Debate - has a winner and a loser

Why do you feel you need to get the last word on this topic? thats pathetic

Your not the winner OH - I wrote this in English

Patsy

sunny104 · Post by **sunny104** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:00 am

spot;704103 wrote: That very thing happened to me in France once - could I remember the French for Eighteenth of August? It had gone completely out of my head, I had to look at the registration form to read it aloud.

a Leo?

*sigh*

it would never work between us.....*sunny throws herself upon the floor*

Post by **spot** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:17 am

sunny104;704561 wrote: a Leo?

*sigh*

it would never work between us.....*sunny throws herself upon the floor*

I made up the date, Sunny. I'm really an Aquarius, whatever that means.

sunny104 · Post by **sunny104** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:33 am

spot;704584 wrote: I made up the date, Sunny. I'm really an Aquarius, whatever that means.

well, that's a relief. We shall resume our love affair then.

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:57 am

Patsy Warnick;704408 wrote: Laneyb

You won't give this a damn break will ya??

You made a comment that this thread was a debate - its not

Thread open to discussion - which is ones opinion whether you agree with that opinion or not its an OPINION..

Debate - has a winner and a loser

Why do you feel you need to get the last word on this topic? thats pathetic

Your not the winner OH - I wrote this in English

Patsy

Agree to disagree, Patsy. I'm quite done being insulted on this ridiculous thread. If RedGlitter wants to squawk about every single opinion that flutters through her head, that's fine. It would be great, though, if one were allowed to squawk back without being stomped on because it's a different opinion.

I'm realizing that there are certain people on FG who simply do not give a crap about what others have to say, as long as their voice is loud enough to be heard.

Oh, and if you respond to this, don't worry. I won't respond back, so that you can have the last word, which seems to be what you're most concerned about.

No cuido para ser un ganador. En hecho, somos todos los perdedores porque esta conversación no se podría tener bastante y sin insulto.

Direct translation:

Care not to be a winner. In fact, we are all the losers because this conversation could not be had enough and without insult.

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:09 am

RedGlitter;704377 wrote: Laney once again, you're laughably wrong. The world revolves around you, me and everyone else. People have no right to stand there and talk about someone when they are plainly heard. It's rude. I don't care where you come from, it's rude. Nothing you can say in the way of paranoia or any of your other poppycock is going to change the fact that rude is as rude does. I don't see what's so difficult for you to understand about that.

It's sad that you're entire argument is based on manners and courtesy when you have shown neither to anyone who disagreed with you during the course of this conversation. And, at times, neither have I. So, I'm done.

In Spanish that would be:

Es triste que su discusiÃ³n entera estÃ¡ basada en las maneras y la cortesÃa que usted ha demostrado a ninguna persona que diferenciÃ³ con usted durante el curso de esta conversaciÃ³n. Y, ocasionalmente, no demostré ninguna cortesÃa. Por lo tanto, acabo.