Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?

RedGlitter
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Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?

Post by RedGlitter »

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2007 ... ?th&emc=th

They talk of how she died in the desert, trying to cross into the US.

The family wants the US to put an end to desert crossing. Once again it's our fault. They blame us. They blame the smuggler who left this woman for dead, yet nowhere do they apologize for their daughter coming attempting to come over to the US illegally and use the resources available to legal citizens to better her own and her children's lives. :mad:

What this woman did was wrong. Are we supposed to hang our heads for this?
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Post by KB. »

We should hang our heads any time someone whose only crime is:

attempting to come over to the US illegally and use the resources available to legal citizens to better her own and her children's lives.


meets their demise in the pursuit of that.

This country was founded by murderers and oppurtunists (sp). Our ancestors invaded the lands and took them from the Native Americans using any means available, from guile and lies to small pox infested blankets and forced assimilation. If a person does not strive with every ounce of their being to make their life better for themselves and their children then they are dead already.

It saddens my heart to see such a lack of empathy from you.

The high horse some of us sit upon is the color of death and destruction; it reeks of self service and ignorance of the past. It has one blind eye and the other is constantly turned towards the shadows for fear the sun will shine it's light on truth.

I'd say I would pray for the world and it's hardened heart, but I am sure I would be laughed at and scorned for doing so; by the very people who think Christians an evil and uncaring lot.

Alas, contradiction, you haunt my every thought. It is a melancholy ghost.
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Post by RedGlitter »

KB, I'm really not sure if you're having an actual problem with me or the melancholy ghost, so if you are you're welcome to PM me and if you're not, we can just carry on like before.

I have to say the smallpox factor and all that...it's time to retire that as a blanket excuse for everything currently wrong. The fact is those alive right now and for a good long time, have nothing to do with it.

What is the point of us having laws if they mean nothing? Is there a point to it?

I have empathy for people who are deserving of it but someone who irresponsibly brought kids into a place where nothing good would be offered them (ie Mexico apparently) only to figure she would come over here WRONGFULLY and take some of what we have for herself when it wasn't hers to take to begin with...doesn't need my empathy. They need a kick in the pants. If others can do what it takes to get here the legal way, then this woman could have as well. Instead, fingers are pointed again at the USA, the big, bad Fortunate Son who let a criminal die in the desert.

It is not the US who makes criminals of Mexican illegals. It is Mexico itself.
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Post by spot »

RedGlitter;695032 wrote: What is the point of us having laws if they mean nothing? Is there a point to it?That, I feel, is a very meaningful question. Any prohibition law will generate crime where no crime previously existed. It happened with alcohol in the 20s, it's happening with "the war on drugs" now, and it has criminalized 12 million undocumented aliens simply because the US has decided to protect the currently advantageous position of those currently documented.

Open borders would involve mass movements but those would settle down in time. They would have settled down long since if you'd never made undocumented crossing illegal in the first place. You have, for example, open borders between the 50 states by agreement, it's quite possible that if you'd not permitted that in the days when the US was created then you'd be crying out against illegal Nebraskans crossing the Utah border today. That isn't illegal, so those crossing that border today aren't criminalized. The state makes criminals by choosing the laws.
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Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?

Post by RedGlitter »

Any prohibition law will generate crime where no crime previously existed.


Spot, what that sounds like to me is like saying "we can't make the law work, illegals are wrong but we'll scrap the law and then we won't have any more problems!" Like if you can't win (for lack of a better term) then you just call the thing in question "right" and your problem is solved. Is that it?

How will that solve the problem of usurpation and the problems we have now just as it currently is? We can't help every US citizen as it currently is, so why should we go out of our way to aid those whose natural home this is not?
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Post by KB. »

RedGlitter;695032 wrote: KB, I'm really not sure if you're having an actual problem with me or the melancholy ghost, so if you are you're welcome to PM me and if you're not, we can just carry on like before.

I have to say the smallpox factor and all that...it's time to retire that as a blanket excuse for everything currently wrong. The fact is those alive right now and for a good long time, have nothing to do with it.

What is the point of us having laws if they mean nothing? Is there a point to it?

I have empathy for people who are deserving of it but someone who irresponsibly brought kids into a place where nothing good would be offered them (ie Mexico apparently) only to figure she would come over here WRONGFULLY and take some of what we have for herself when it wasn't hers to take to begin with...doesn't need my empathy. They need a kick in the pants. If others can do what it takes to get here the legal way, then this woman could have as well. Instead, fingers are pointed again at the USA, the big, bad Fortunate Son who let a criminal die in the desert.

It is not the US who makes criminals of Mexican illegals. It is Mexico itself.




The only thing I have a problem with is narrow minded hate and a lack of concern for our fellow man. Not you, nor anyone else who holds that opinion. I still believe and as long as their is air in my nicotine stained lungs, I will always believe that if I can open one person's eyes to a plight other than their own I will try my best to do so.

Whether it be alcoholism, a woman in an abusive relationship, or the worth of every living person. My faith, yes I said faith, keeps that in my heart. I pick my devils and demons based on personal experience, not band wagon propaganda.

A woman died trying to help herself and her children. What if she had been a citizen and during an attempt to steal food had slipped in an icy alley and frozen to death? Sure if she had not been breaking the law she would never have been there. Dare we not hang our heads in sorrow for her. She was a criminal after all.

Blanket statement or not the massacres our forefathers committed are history and if you forget history it WILL for damn sure repeat itself. We have come very little distance since those days that in relation to the age of the world and its great societies is still a child.

Why would I wish to continue this in PMs?

The things I believe in are for everyone to see. Did you not expect someone would disagree with you, or feel other wise? I have not one thing to say to anyone here about my beliefs that I can not say for everyone to see.
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Post by RedGlitter »

KB.;695046 wrote: The only thing I have a problem with is narrow minded hate and a lack of concern for our fellow man. Not you, nor anyone else who holds that opinion.

Please do not assume I have hatred or lack of concern because I want things done legally, fairly and correctly where I live. Thanks.

I still believe and as long as their is air in my nicotine stained lungs, I will always believe that if I can open one person's eyes to a plight other than their own I will try my best to do so.

That's great but you must remember that what you see as someone's plight, may be just the opinion you hold. Others' eyes may as open as yours yet they may see something you're not.

Whether it be alcoholism, a woman in an abusive relationship, or the worth of every living person. My faith, yes I said faith, keeps that in my heart. I pick my devils and demons based on personal experience, not band wagon propaganda.

I don't see the woman's worth being questioned here. I questioned her integrity of which I saw none. Pick your demons any way you want to but allow others to do the same....maybe without assuming everyone who disagrees is on the bandwagon. I live in border country and we have had a problem with illegal crossers long before it was a popular issue.

A woman died trying to help herself and her children. What if she had been a citizen and during an attempt to steal food had slipped in an icy alley and frozen to death?

My own answer? I wouldn't care about the bread. She was still in her country rightfully whether she stole food or not. Let these people fix their own damn country if it sucks so badly. Do you know the protocol for an American to enter and live in Mexico? Ha! They have so many obstacles put in our path it's laughable; yet Mexican President Fox insists that Fortunate Son open its door and homeland to all his Mexicans including illegals! That incenses me as a US citizen and as a human being. Do you have any opinion on that issue?

Sure if she had not been breaking the law she would never have been there. Dare we not hang our heads in sorrow for her. She was a criminal after all.

Blanket statement or not the massacres our forefathers committed are history and if you forget history it WILL for damn sure repeat itself. We have come very little distance since those days that in relation to the age of the world and its great societies is still a child.

I agree with the first part and not with the last. I agree we should never forget our past but I also say stop hanging your hat on a 200 year old hook! There is no reason the US should continually wear a black eye for what its forepeople did. It is time to move on, not continually live in the past.

Why would I wish to continue this in PMs?

The things I believe in are for everyone to see. Did you not expect someone would disagree with you, or feel other wise? I have not one thing to say to anyone here about my beliefs that I can not say for everyone to see.


I am referring to the attitude I have been sensing from you since we became at odds in the Right to Choose thread. You have said some unpleasant things that seemed to me to be written for my benefit. Some barbs. I wasn't referring to this thread at all.

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Post by koan »

KB.;694998 wrote: We should hang our heads any time someone whose only crime is:

attempting to come over to the US illegally and use the resources available to legal citizens to better her own and her children's lives.


meets their demise in the pursuit of that.




Beautifully said. :-6
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Post by spot »

RedGlitter;695044 wrote: Spot, what that sounds like to me is like saying "we can't make the law work, illegals are wrong but we'll scrap the law and then we won't have any more problems!" Like if you can't win (for lack of a better term) then you just call the thing in question "right" and your problem is solved. Is that it?

How will that solve the problem of usurpation and the problems we have now just as it currently is? We can't help every US citizen as it currently is, so why should we go out of our way to aid those whose natural home this is not?


If you read what I wrote carefully, it says that the problem is entirely self-created and the victims are those you've criminalized by inventing prohibition laws where none previously existed. Your legislature created the problem in the first place and it's other people who suffer. Either you can recognise a common humanity in those the problem affects or you can't.
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Post by RedGlitter »

spot;695064 wrote: If you read what I wrote carefully, it says that the problem is entirely self-created and the victims are those you've criminalized by inventing prohibition laws where none previously existed. Your legislature created the problem in the first place and it's other people who suffer. Either you can recognise a common humanity in those the problem affects or you can't.


I guess I don't then, Spot. Pretending nothing's wrong does not make things right. God help us if we ever open our borders to every yokel who wants to live here. We'll never make it.
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Post by spot »

RedGlitter;695065 wrote: I guess I don't then, Spot. Pretending nothing's wrong does not make things right. God help us if we ever open our borders to every yokel who wants to live here. We'll never make it.


That's the position you were in before you invented the prohibition on open borders.

It's what Utah would be saying except that the states and federal authorities refused to allow a prohibition on open borders between states.

Can't you see that the laws are entirely arbitrary and man-made?
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Post by cars »

spot;695078 wrote: That's the position you were in before you invented the prohibition on open borders.



It's what Utah would be saying except that the states and federal authorities refused to allow a prohibition on open borders between states.



Can't you see that the laws are entirely arbitrary and man-made?


That's why it's called: The United Staes of America!
Cars :)
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Post by watermark »

RedGlitter I admire your ability to state your opinions in a judicious manner. This issue isn't easy to discuss and it pushes a lot of people's territorial buttons. I couldn't state what I feel about the issues involved as clearly as you, nor most of the people willing to divulge their feelings about this. I can say that my son's best friend is what you might term illegal immigrant or alien (both these terms depersonalize the individuals and issues involved btw), but I do know that this particular family didn't come to the US because they tired of their homeland, or however it's called, but to escape oppression and inability to ever get 'ahead' in life in their country of origin, you know, that idealistic notion that led my own ancestors here. (well some them may have been indentured servants, not too sure of my history :wah:) The point I make is I have realized that my son's friend and family aren't criminals, they are great people, yet they can't participate in every opportunity provided others in the US because they don't have a legal entrance here. Btw his family is not from Mexico.

In regards to the conditions of our southern neighboring countries that seems to provide the impetus for many to take drastic measures to get to the US, I quite agree with you. I do think the standards of living for the majority of the people in these places must suck. Also I'm inclined to feel a bit angry a priori in that I would like to see how the government and the people of, say, Mexico welcomed me into their sphere? I rather imagine I would NOT be welcomed there, at all, unless of course I was supplying the tourist industry with a livlihood. I would probably be treated suspiciously and not allowed to assimilate into the culture, nor provided with resources like abundant educational opportunities (i.e. free Spanish lessons), set up with a friendly and wise curendera sp?, or given information on the ways to stay healthy in their country. I just doubt this would happen, no way, nada, out of the question!

I would love to have a piece of property in Mexico but I don't think I'd be very comfortable being myself living in Mexico, just as many newly arrived members of the US are not entirely comfortable living here. One problem immigration brings up might have to do with acceptance of the newcomers, as much as the question of whether we will be able to provide for those who "shouldn't" be entitled to the same opportunities us 'legals' have. Believe me our government, our 'people' of the US will never be able to take care of the downtrodden, whether or not they are legal or illegal, simply because general 'powers that be' make it so our priorities are placed elsewhere.

But we all have to make sure whatever happens is the best for everyone concerned. We all belong to the same species! And that goes for everyone, not just those of us from the US!

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Post by RedGlitter »

spot;695064 wrote: If you read what I wrote carefully, it says that the problem is entirely self-created and the victims are those you've criminalized by inventing prohibition laws where none previously existed. Your legislature created the problem in the first place and it's other people who suffer. Either you can recognise a common humanity in those the problem affects or you can't.


I don't know why I overlooked this earlier. Sorry about that.

I disagree firmly. It is Mexico and its lack of concern for its own citizens, lack of integrity and lack of resources that tempt its people to come to the US. US legislature did no such thing, Spot. I'd go so far as to say that's ludicrous. In fact, it rankles of blaming the elderly woman for owning the VCR the burglar stole from her. Nonsensical. US did not create Mexico's poverty. That is Mexico's own doing and Mexico makes its people suffer.

Until the US has not one homeless person in a box on the street, we do not need to be taking in, feeding and sheltering anyone else's own. IMO.
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Post by spot »

RedGlitter;695211 wrote: Until the US has not one homeless person in a box on the street, we do not need to be taking in, feeding and sheltering anyone else's own. IMO.Then at the very least stop criminalizing these undocumented aliens, by ejecting them immediately from the country instead of keeping them in indefinite limbo while calling them criminals. Clean your yard, it's festering. Enforce your residency laws.

Your legislature created the problem in the first place by inventing prohibition laws where none previously existed.
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Post by RedGlitter »

watermark;695203 wrote:



But we all have to make sure whatever happens is the best for everyone concerned. We all belong to the same species! And that goes for everyone, not just those of us from the US!

Erin


Hi Erin,

Yes, I agree that we are one species, the human one. But everyone should have the right to protect what is theirs and the US is every legal American's home. When you're a guest in someone's home, you always leave the best piece of meat for the host. It doesn't matter you may be the guest of honor, you are still a guest in another person's home. So that's similar to what I'm likening this issue.

You're right about owning property in Mexico and health care and whether or not they'd welcome you with arms as open as we welcome them.

You may find this interesting about how Mexico treats their immigrants. I'll post the links here to save some space:

http://www.cmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a ... /OPINION02

http://pmsol3.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/ ... s-part-ii/

As a human being and a fairly free citizen, I find it disrespectful, hypocritical and lowdown that Mexico demands of us what it won't give in return.
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Post by watermark »

I think Mexico has been forced to change how they live because of close proximity to US, also big US companies have taken advantage of the 'conditions' that makes the country easy target for greed and irresponsible merchandisers to set up there. I find the way business is handled between the countries disgusting. And oh yeah I also might mention how much I loathe thieves of any type regardless of national origin, just hate 'em. I do not like to be stolen from. Recently had my credit card stolen and used to purchase several tanks of gas at the local unassuming gas station that has become so lax and greedy they don't even require proof of I D to purchase something! Sick!

Erin :-6
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Post by RedGlitter »

spot;695212 wrote: Then at the very least stop criminalizing these undocumented aliens, by ejecting them immediately from the country instead of keeping them in indefinite limbo while calling them criminals. Clean your yard, it's festering. Enforce your residency laws.

You know I have agreed with you on that before, Spot and I still do. They should be booted back home immediately. No argument here.

Your legislature created the problem in the first place by inventing prohibition laws where none previously existed.


But I disagree completely again with you here. Once again, no we didn't. I reiterate that the Mexican immigrant problem begins and ends with Mexico. (I know not all illegals are from Mexico but I'm sticking to that aspect of the issue) Start putting the blame on their own people for oppressing their country and stop expecting USA to wear Mexico's black eye. I cannot get behind the idea that the laws make the crime.
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Post by double helix »

spot;695038 wrote: That, I feel, is a very meaningful question. Any prohibition law will generate crime where no crime previously existed. It happened with alcohol in the 20s, it's happening with "the war on drugs" now, and it has criminalized 12 million undocumented aliens simply because the US has decided to protect the currently advantageous position of those currently documented.

Open borders would involve mass movements but those would settle down in time. They would have settled down long since if you'd never made undocumented crossing illegal in the first place. You have, for example, open borders between the 50 states by agreement, it's quite possible that if you'd not permitted that in the days when the US was created then you'd be crying out against illegal Nebraskans crossing the Utah border today. That isn't illegal, so those crossing that border today aren't criminalized. The state makes criminals by choosing the laws.
What the blazes are you babbeling now spot? Honestly, open borders between the States, as if each state of the union was seperate from the entire UNITED STATES. You really should pull your head out of whatever dark hole you have it jammed into and do a little more research before you make a statement on subjects outside of your knowladge base.

As for the dessert humpers, trying to milk the US for the quick cash flow to the hometown, boo! hoo! They know the risks going into the dessert, they live in Mexico for crying out loud! Even in the city, Mexicans know the dessert is a killer if you don't prepare properly.

spot, you really should stop trying to sound authoritative on subjects you know nothing about. You just make yourself look foolish.:rolleyes:
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Post by spot »

double helix;695227 wrote: What the blazes are you babbeling now spot? Honestly, open borders between the States, as if each state of the union was seperate from the entire UNITED STATES. You really should pull your head out of whatever dark hole you have it jammed into and do a little more research before you make a statement on subjects outside of your knowladge base. Here you go, DH, this is where it happened - the first governing document of the United States of America, ratified on March 1, 1781, "The Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union"Article III. The said States hereby severally enter into a firm league of friendship with each other, for their common defense, the security of their liberties, and their mutual and general welfare, binding themselves to assist each other, against all force offered to, or attacks made upon them, or any of them, on account of religion, sovereignty, trade, or any other pretense whatever.

Article IV. The better to secure and perpetuate mutual friendship and intercourse among the people of the different States in this Union, the free inhabitants of each of these States, paupers, vagabonds, and fugitives from justice excepted, shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of free citizens in the several States; and the people of each State shall have free ingress and regress to and from any other State, [...]That's the decision point that there would be open borders between the 50 states by agreement. "If you'd not permitted that in the days when the US was created then you'd be crying out against illegal Nebraskans crossing the Utah border today" is what I said. It seems an accurate statement to me.

When it was signed, there was a distinction between "citizen" and "resident". There was an open national border allowing residence even for non-citizens. Your legislature invented the prohibition on entry from Mexico to the USA where none previously existed, I'll even go and look up when for you if you like - it was in 1965. Before the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 the border between Mexico and the USA was an open border to US and Mexican citizens. Then those who continued the previously legal free movement were criminalized by legislation. That's when the label "criminal" was imposed by the US on those who continued to enter the US without US documentation. As I started, "Any prohibition law will generate crime where no crime previously existed", and I don't see anything inaccurate about such a statement.
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Post by RedGlitter »

spot;695256 wrote: Then those who continued the previously legal free movement were criminalized by legislation. That's when the label "criminal" was imposed by the US on those who continued to enter the US without US documentation. As I started, "Any prohibition law will generate crime where no crime previously existed", and I don't see anything inaccurate about such a statement.


Let me see if I can explain the inaccuracy using opiates as an example.

During the late 1800s, the American Old West was littered with opium dens. Opium was in the Old West in large part due to the Chinese immigrants who came here to work on the railroads. Even though booze was considerably a bigger problem in this era, the dens were already getting people hooked on opium. Opium was even promoted as a cure for alcoholism by the late 1800s.

In about 1810, morphine was created from opium. This was beneficial in the medical world as a severe pain killer and was not a bad thing in itself if used properly. During the Civil War, tens of thousands of Northern and Confederate soldiers, were given morphine for war injuries and morphine addiction blew up to an all time high. In just ten years from its arrival into the US, our country had a major morphine epidemic happening. Doctors knew what was happening but didn't know how to stop it.

In 1874, heroin came onto the scene and was marketed as the "safe, non addictive substance" that wouldn't cause addiction like morphine. It was common to buy over the counter kits with syringes and vials of opiates (morphine or heroin) and/or cocaine to take care of one's ills at home. You could even buy laudanum (opium in alcohol base)

for a garden variety of problems and give it to kids just as freely as you might give them aspirin. "Snake oil" salesmen put these drugs in their phony elixirs as well.

There's been a heroin addiction in this country ever since.

Heroin, morphine and other opiate derivatives were sold and used unregulated and LEGALLY until 1920 when Congress finally realized their danger and passed the Dangerous Drug Act.This law stated that these drugs' distribution be federally regulated and it made over the counter sales ILLEGAL. But by the time the law passed, we already had an estimated 200,000 heroin addicts in the US.

Here is my point. The drugs weren't (and aren't) bad in themselves. The problems they generate within our society are what's undesirable. The addiction problem existed long before any prohibitive laws were passed. The laws did not create the addiction or the trouble it caused. The laws were made to protect our society from the deteriorative aspects of drug addiction. If you choose to go against these laws, then yes that makes you a criminal in the eyes of the law but the problem was already in existence.

I don't think anyone is saying illegals are bad people. I know quite a few and am related by marriage to some Mexican aliens and they are quite nice and good characters. However what they're doing is completely wrong. It's wrong because the law recognizes the ways in which their existence will damage the thread of our society, the impact they will leave upon a society that already cannot provide for all its natural legal citzens. This does not make law laughable or mistaken. If you eliminate any law and allow aliens to come here, all the problems will not cease to exist just because there is no law to protect us from them. The law may "make" them into criminals but the "illegals" are already doing wrong by coming here and sponging up benefits that US natural citzens cannot even have, while they're not giving equal contribution.

So law or no law, the point of law making illegals criminal, is moot. The problems exist regardless.
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Post by spot »

That's a perfect example. The problems associated with making drug sales, possession and consumption a crime are far higher than the problems associated with drug sale, possession and consumption. There are more social ills that result from criminalizing drugs than there ever were from their previously legal position. If nothing else, you have two million people in your jails as a result of that criminalizing of drugs and that's a major crisis in your society.

I'd argue that the same is true of criminalizing the free undocumented passage for Mexican and US citizens over the previously open border between the two countries. The 12 million criminalized undocumented aliens who are damaging the employment conditions of the both countries are a more costly social ill than ever resulted from the previous state of affairs.
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Post by RedGlitter »

Spot, say we made it legal for them to come live in the US. Just suppose.

What then?

What would happen?
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Post by koan »

I'm against borders for any reason other than restricting foreign plants and animals.

The example of freedom of movement within the country is perfect. None of you in the states would be happy if you were trapped within the borders of the state you were born into yet the country survives when people are allowed to flood New York etc. There is only so much room. Once that limit is met than the excess will have to disperse. Like a large scale version of musical chairs. :wah:

Canada has TONS of land.

It's embarrassing really. :D
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Post by spot »

RedGlitter;695283 wrote: Spot, say we made it legal for them to come live in the US. Just suppose.

What then?

What would happen?


Strangely enough that's a question I can answer with examples, not merely with conjecture.

Each time the European Union (EU) expands to take in a new Eastern European member state we go from prohibition of entry to free open border movement, legal indefinite residence and full employment permission, which is exactly what you're asking about. The Hungarian or Czech or Polish or Lithuanian worker, once open border arrangements are in place, can move to and work in any of the other EU member states. Many do. Wages have not dropped in the UK in consequence, not that I've seen, though the UK now has (for example) one Polish resident in 120 here. Just under 1% of UK residents are Poles now. By contrast though, the removal of a proportion of the workforce from Poland has raised wages there noticeably. Those increased local wages are now tempting UK-resident Poles to return to Poland. A stable balance of movement will happen sooner rather than later.

There's no reason at all why the same shouldn't work with the US/Mexico pressure.

If you want hard real numbers I can look for them, but that's the gist. What would happen? The same as across Europe. The earning disparities were similar, the overall population numbers are not a lot different.
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Post by spot »

jimbo;695351 wrote: where would you fg;ers move to if you could go anywhere :confused:I used to live in Oldham. I liked Oldham. Mind you, I lived in Moss Side too and I liked that as well. I'll settle for Edenfield, how's that - plenty of hill walking round there down Bury way.

Umm. Somewhere foreign, like? Tasmania, mate.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
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Post by spot »

jimbo;695311 wrote: in the UK my work has gone down the plug hole with so many poles,ruskies and god knows who else taking my workI just remembered I did some work for a millionaire Pole back in the early 80s. He arrived in the UK penniless and went round the country installing water economy valves. He wrote to every hotel and pub showing they'd recoup the cost in a year and everyone wrote back saying please can we book, and then he either did it or subcontracted the installation. Nice chap he was, he knew what he wanted and worked out how to get it.

The point - there was a point... Oh, yes: they've been doing that for decades.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
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Post by koan »

jimbo;695351 wrote: just out of interest



if all border controls were relaxed and any one could live anywhere where do you guys think most people would end up :thinking::thinking:





i'm happy right here and if i ever did move any where it would be to Cyprus with suzy :-6





where would you fg;ers move to if you could go anywhere :confused:


You'd have to ask G-man. Wherever he goes, that's where I'd want to be.
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Post by koan »

jimbo;695395 wrote: i said if they relaxed border control





not stalking control :thinking::thinking:


I'm a highly sought after stalker, you know.
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Post by spot »

koan;695399 wrote: I'm a highly sought after stalker, you know.


I have my "Expert Witness Consultancy Rate Card" here someplace...
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
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Post by koan »

freedom of movement is considered a key human right.

You can go to prison for taking that right away from someone directly. It is the main form of punishment in the world to take that right away. And apparently people die trying to assert it... like the woman this thread is about.
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Post by RedGlitter »

spot;695330 wrote: Strangely enough that's a question I can answer with examples, not merely with conjecture.



[snip]

There's no reason at all why the same shouldn't work with the US/Mexico pressure.


Spot, what happens when the US becomes saturated? And it will. We may have some people moving out but we would have far more coming in. What happens when our welfare becomes even more scarce- and please don't tell me the Mexicans will take all the buck-an-hour jobs that we don't want; that doesn't wash. What happens when we use up our pristine lands to build more stinking housing for all these new "citizens?" What do we do with the new crime element? Build more prisons that suck up more tax money? Do we continue to overcrowd our schools and provide lesser education to all because we must benefit the some?



jimbo;695351 wrote: just out of interest



if all border controls were relaxed and any one could live anywhere where do you guys think most people would end up :thinking::thinking:





i'm happy right here and if i ever did move any where it would be to Cyprus with suzy :-6





where would you fg;ers move to if you could go anywhere :confused:


I think the US would be awash in Mexicans to start with. I don't know where Americans would move to; I would stay here, perhaps move to a cooler state. It's my home.



koan;695422 wrote: freedom of movement is considered a key human right.

You can go to prison for taking that right away from someone directly. It is the main form of punishment in the world to take that right away. And apparently people die trying to assert it... like the woman this thread is about.


Says who? Where is it designated as a key human right? Where is this list? Is protecting one's own and one's homeland not also a key human right, Koan? Shouldn't it be? This woman knew exactly what she was doing when she hopped those rabbit holes with her coyote. She knew it was wrong or at the very least illegal yet she did it anyway. She bought her ticket, she took her chances.

Out of curiosity, do any of you who live outside the US feel poorly for the people living under bushes in our country? The box people? The undergrounders? The old people eating cat food because they can't afford groceries, *and* heat in the winter? The kids who go to school with an empty stomach and can't concentrate on their work because they're freaking hungry?! The people who are sick and even dying because they cannot afford the medication they need and they can't afford insurance either? Or are you all sold that this is the land of plenty for everyone?

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Post by SuzyB »

RedGlitter;695434 wrote:



Out of curiosity, do any of you who live outside the US feel poorly for the people living under bushes in our country? The box people? The undergrounders? The old people eating cat food because they can't afford groceries, *and* heat in the winter? The kids who go to school with an empty stomach and can't concentrate on their work because they're freaking hungry?! The people who are sick and even dying because they cannot afford the medication they need and they can't afford insurance either? Or are you all sold that this is the land of plenty for everyone?




I feel very much for the people that you have described above Red, but that is going on in every country, because of that do we turn our backs on people that have nothing just because we have our quota of homeless and sick people?

The problem here in the UK is that our system is being abused by the minority so we start to feel resentful to the majority of immigrants.

Do I wish our government was tougher? Yes I do.

Would I see others go without so I could have more? No way.

JMO :)
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

RedGlitter;695065 wrote: I guess I don't then, Spot. Pretending nothing's wrong does not make things right. God help us if we ever open our borders to every yokel who wants to live here. We'll never make it.


Was it not the US Statute of Liberty that said "bring us you poor, your tired, your huddled masses,"?
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Post by RedGlitter »

Bryn Mawr;695462 wrote: Was it not the US Statute of Liberty that said "bring us you poor, your tired, your huddled masses,"?


Yes Bryn.

But nowhere did it say "abuse us." :(
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Post by Chookie »

RedGlitter;694922 wrote: Out of curiosity, do any of you who live outside the US feel poorly for the people living under bushes in our country? The box people? The undergrounders? The old people eating cat food because they can't afford groceries, *and* heat in the winter? The kids who go to school with an empty stomach and can't concentrate on their work because they're freaking hungry?!


These examples are all due (in the most part) to decisions made by your government. They are less common, but not, unfortunately, non-existent in Europe.

The people who are sick and even dying because they cannot afford the medication they need and they can't afford insurance either?


This is a disgraceful situation, caused by the fact that, in the USA, the provision of healthcare is seen as a money-making opportunity rather than a governmental duty. Healthcare in the USA is first-class - IF you can afford it.

Or are you all sold that this is the land of plenty for everyone?




I've said before on this forum, some of the worst poverty I have ever seen I saw in the United States.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

spot;695330 wrote: Strangely enough that's a question I can answer with examples, not merely with conjecture.

Each time the European Union (EU) expands to take in a new Eastern European member state we go from prohibition of entry to free open border movement, legal indefinite residence and full employment permission, which is exactly what you're asking about. The Hungarian or Czech or Polish or Lithuanian worker, once open border arrangements are in place, can move to and work in any of the other EU member states. Many do. Wages have not dropped in the UK in consequence, not that I've seen, though the UK now has (for example) one Polish resident in 120 here. Just under 1% of UK residents are Poles now. By contrast though, the removal of a proportion of the workforce from Poland has raised wages there noticeably. Those increased local wages are now tempting UK-resident Poles to return to Poland. A stable balance of movement will happen sooner rather than later.

There's no reason at all why the same shouldn't work with the US/Mexico pressure.

If you want hard real numbers I can look for them, but that's the gist. What would happen? The same as across Europe. The earning disparities were similar, the overall population numbers are not a lot different.


To extend on this answer, average wages on some sectors have dropped marginally but the main effect on wages has been to restrict the rate of wage rises. The economy has actually grown as a direct result of the immigration as the increase in the workforce has given the economy an increased capacity for production without a corresponding increase in the cost of output.

I would also note that nett immigration to the UK is not that high due to the approximate 500,000 UK nationals emigrating each year.

The UK, as with the US, has been operating at near capacity for several years - the Fed consider the current US unemployment rate of 4.6% as about optimal. Any lower and capacity constraints would push output prices up, any higher would be a drain on the economy. I was surprised to note that the Fed see a requirement for approximately 180,000 more jobs to be created per month to keep pace with the expanding workforce and that this is the trend value over the past several years.
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Post by RedGlitter »

SuzyB;695453 wrote: I feel very much for the people that you have described above Red, but that is going on in every country, because of that do we turn our backs on people that have nothing just because we have our quota of homeless and sick people?

The problem here in the UK is that our system is being abused by the minority so we start to feel resentful to the majority of immigrants.

Do I wish our government was tougher? Yes I do.

Would I see others go without so I could have more? No way.

JMO :)


Hi Suzy :)

Yes, you're right, it is in every country, yet I'm only hearing about how the US should fix the problem. I can't believe other countries are doing their part any better than we are; at least I haven't seen any numbers.

We too, feel that same resentment toward immigrants who are abusing what we have to offer. I'm not against charity in any way, but I was taught that it starts at home. To make sure you feed your own before you give your food away to another. That one's first responsibility is to their own. Their own meaning their own citizens, not their own as in fellow human beings, in case Koan brings that up. (Ha! Kidding, Koan) :D

Do we turn our backs because we have unfortunates of our own? I'd say yes. It's time we took care of our own problems before we fix everyone else's. The rest of the world wants us to stop being the World Police or so they say, yet they expect us to fix their mess because we're supposedly the "have" country in a "have not" world.

Recently I posted about a boy from Iraq whose face was damaged in a war incident. Nobody in Iraq would help this kid, who was one of their own. Nobody. But America did! Again. As usual. I'm not trying to come off heartless but I want to see those doctors be generous with American citizens first. I want them to give of their time and money and help someone here at home who can't afford a new liver or fix an infant's cleft palate. I think that's only fair and right.

Bryn quotes what's on Liberty but I don't think "give us your wretched and poor" means we should destroy our own country to help others. As usual, this is just my opinion.
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Post by cinamin »

Let's change the subject, who thinks this is sexy?

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Post by Bryn Mawr »

RedGlitter;695472 wrote:

Bryn quotes what's on Liberty but I don't think "give us your wretched and poor" means we should destroy our own country to help others. As usual, this is just my opinion.


But it was meant literally. It was the only way to build the country - not to destroy it. It was not to help others it was to help the USA.

Although the circumstances have changes the logic still holds, whilst the economy is operating at near capacity the only way to expand (and concequently improve standard of living) is to expand the workforce.
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Post by RedGlitter »

Bryn Mawr;695488 wrote: But it was meant literally. It was the only way to build the country - not to destroy it. It was not to help others it was to help the USA.

Although the circumstances have changes the logic still holds, whilst the economy is operating at near capacity the only way to expand (and concequently improve standard of living) is to expand the workforce.


But Bryn, that may be sound logic but it also presumes that every person we let over here will be a productive citizen. As it is now, they can come here illegally and still get everything they want and need provided for them; not everyone of course will be a sponge, but we'll certainly have many sponges to deal with. In expanding the workforce, will there really be enough quality jobs for all? I mean jobs that will actually put food on the table, not the part time Walmart stuff where people have to work 2 and 3 jobs to make it. Will we not be fighting each other to get work? We have to make the jobs first, am I right? I'm not brilliant in economics so please excuse my dimness about it. :o

Cinnamin, what was that for? Nobody's arguing here.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

RedGlitter;695494 wrote: But Bryn, that may be sound logic but it also presumes that every person we let over here will be a productive citizen. As it is now, they can come here illegally and still get everything they want and need provided for them; not everyone of course will be a sponge, but we'll certainly have many sponges to deal with. In expanding the workforce, will there really be enough quality jobs for all? I mean jobs that will actually put food on the table, not the part time Walmart stuff where people have to work 2 and 3 jobs to make it. Will we not be fighting each other to get work? We have to make the jobs first, am I right? I'm not brilliant in economics so please excuse my dimness about it. :o

Cinnamin, what was that for? Nobody's arguing here.


De-criminalise it and let them register to enter the country legally, set rules as to who can claim support and only pay out to those who satisfy the criteria. Then there is no point in coming into the country unless you can be productive.

In practice, the UK have found that the number of jobs has expanded to support the additional workforce. The tragedies that have happened have involved illegal immigrants from outside the EU working for gangmasters outside of the system.
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Post by cinamin »

RedGlitter;695494 wrote: Cinnamin, what was that for? Nobody's arguing here.


Just kidding around. :sneaky:

How 'bout this one?

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Post by RedGlitter »

Scrat;695517 wrote: I feel sorry for them but on the other hand why don't they change their own country?


That's what I've been saying in too many words, Scrat. I've yet to hear a viable answer.
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Post by nvalleyvee »

spot;695038 wrote: That, I feel, is a very meaningful question. Any prohibition law will generate crime where no crime previously existed. It happened with alcohol in the 20s, it's happening with "the war on drugs" now, and it has criminalized 12 million undocumented aliens simply because the US has decided to protect the currently advantageous position of those currently documented.

Open borders would involve mass movements but those would settle down in time. They would have settled down long since if you'd never made undocumented crossing illegal in the first place. You have, for example, open borders between the 50 states by agreement, it's quite possible that if you'd not permitted that in the days when the US was created then you'd be crying out against illegal Nebraskans crossing the Utah border today. That isn't illegal, so those crossing that border today aren't criminalized. The state makes criminals by choosing the laws.


Sorry to never feel badly about these people.

I pay my taxes...I pay my major taxes at 28%..

I do not ever feel badly about these people when I pay 28% TAX TO SUPORT THEM.
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