Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?

Post by **spot** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:16 am

BTS;699582 wrote: Can we have a vote on this amongst our European, Canadian and any other members?Goodness me yes - I can't see anyone at all voting against the safety net. Not a one. You do know that rich kids have complete access to private medical care, don't you? The National Health Service isn't mandatory, it's an option. Most people take it - 9 out of 10 or thereabouts. Most of the rest have private medical insurance as a perk of their employment.

Here are the polls you both asked for - one for US posters to respond to and another for non-US posters to respond to. They're public open-dated polls.

BTS;699582 wrote: What is the extra tax rate to have this fine medical service available to you?I put details of the tax burden into an earlier thread. In the UK the working person pays - roughly - between 38% and 46% of their gross income in taxes. The maximum possible personal payment into the National Health fund for any worker is $140 (£70) a week and that figure includes the worker's State Pension payment as well.

LilacDragon · Post by **LilacDragon** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:18 am

magenta flame;699559 wrote: So multiculturalism only happens in English speaking countries? Or just in America?

And you should speak the language of a country out of gratitude?

where's my Bwahahahaha dog i need my Bwahahahha dog!!!!!:-5

I doubt that there is a country in the world that doesn't have a mix of people of several nationalities. What, with planes, trains, and automobiles - travel is much easier then it was even a hundred years ago.

And no - if you move to a foreign country to live, you don't learn to speak the language out of gratitude. You do it out of RESPECT. Seems to be plenty of that lacking in the world today.

Post by **spot** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:27 am

LilacDragon;699648 wrote: And no - if you move to a foreign country to live, you don't learn to speak the language out of gratitude. You do it out of RESPECT. Seems to be plenty of that lacking in the world today.As a matter of information, what proportion of US forces on duty in Iraq are learning to speak Arabic do you suppose? Most, or just the cultured few who might be prepared to offer respect to their hosts? There seems to be plenty of respect lacking in the world today.

LilacDragon · Post by **LilacDragon** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:37 am

spot;699651 wrote: As a matter of information, what proportion of US forces on duty in Iraq are learning to speak Arabic do you suppose? Most, or just the cultured few who might be prepared to offer respect to their hosts? There seems to be plenty of respect lacking in the world today.

Most of my husbands unit learned enough to communicate with the locals that they dealt with - as a matter of fact. I don't know any soldiers that have gone over and returned without learning enough to be able to communicate at least some simple ideas and concerns.

To not attempt to do so would be insanely stupid, wouldn't you think? Pretty hard to get information that might be life saving or life threatening if you can't speak to the locals.

Post by **spot** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:43 am

LilacDragon;699656 wrote: Most of my husbands unit learned enough to communicate with the locals that they dealt with - as a matter of fact. I don't know any soldiers that have gone over and returned without learning enough to be able to communicate at least some simple ideas and concerns.

To not attempt to do so would be insanely stupid, wouldn't you think? Pretty hard to get information that might be life saving or life threatening if you can't speak to the locals.

The idea that they're doing out of respect doesn't exactly shine through in what you say here, you know.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:05 am

Let's turn this around a little. If you moved to Italy for example, to put up permanent residence, would you continue to speak only English to all or would you learn enough Italian to communicate with Italians who didn't speak English? Why or why not?

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:16 am

spot;699519 wrote: Most countries of the world use more than one language. The UK does, for example - even Wales is fully sign-posted in two languages. My toothpaste and shampoo are both labeled in Polish, not English. I thought the sole mitigating attraction of the US was its multiculturalism.

RedGlitter;699677 wrote: Let's turn this around a little. If you moved to Italy for example, to put up permanent residence, would you continue to speak only English to all or would you learn enough Italian to communicate with Italians who didn't speak English? Why or why not?
I'll take it a step further. Spot, what two languages are used in Wales and by what criteria did they decide which other language was accommodated and what other languages will soon be accommodated? Also, when you call your government offices in the UK do they accommodate other languages by giving choices on the number pads? If so, which other language (s)? Now which languages do you not accommodate and why?

LilacDragon · Post by **LilacDragon** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:19 am

spot;699659 wrote: The idea that they're doing out of respect doesn't exactly shine through in what you say here, you know.

I hardly think that you can compare someone going to another country because their Commander In Chief sent them to fight in a war and someone who is moving to another country for personal reasons to live their lives.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:24 am

RedGlitter;699677 wrote: Let's turn this around a little. If you moved to Italy for example, to put up permanent residence, would you continue to speak only English to all or would you learn enough Italian to communicate with Italians who didn't speak English? Why or why not?

A sickeningly large percentage of the ex-pat Brit in Spain (our retirement home of choice) learn virtually no Spanish - to our eternal shame.

It's down to them huddling in their safe little ex-pat communities and never venturing out into the real world.

Post by **spot** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:07 am

YZGI;699691 wrote: I'll take it a step further. Spot, what two languages are used in Wales and by what criteria did they decide which other language was accommodated and what other languages will soon be accommodated? Also, when you call your government offices in the UK do they accommodate other languages by giving choices on the number pads? If so, which other language (s)? Now which languages do you not accommodate and why?

Dear of dear... http://www.wales.gov.uk/

Every debate in the Assembly, every government form, every traffic sign - all completely bilingual. Every Welsh government agency gives a choice of which language to converse in. It's because - get this- because the English-speaking immigrants to Wales can't be bothered to learn the language of the locals so the locals compromise and meet them half-way. A point that seems lost on this thread, don't you think?

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:56 am

spot;699837 wrote: Dear of dear... http://www.wales.gov.uk/

Every debate in the Assembly, every government form, every traffic sign - all completely bilingual. Every Welsh government agency gives a choice of which language to converse in. It's because - get this- because the English-speaking immigrants to Wales can't be bothered to learn the language of the locals so the locals compromise and meet them half-way. A point that seems lost on this thread, don't you think?

Well...I don't think so, no. We're already bending over backwards for illegal aliens Spot, how much more "compromise" do you think we should give them?

And that's shame about the English to Welsh deal. Those English should be embarrassed for not even trying.

Post by **spot** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:27 pm

RedGlitter;699852 wrote: Well...I don't think so, no. We're already bending over backwards for illegal aliens Spot, how much more "compromise" do you think we should give them?I think you should eject them from within your borders immediately without exception, and you should have no higher national priority. You should only elect a congress and a white house that's prepared to bring the US to a position where it has no undocumented aliens at all, not a single one. This is none of it anything to do with "bending over backwards", it's a mass illegal officially-sanctioned exploitation of the poor and it has no excuse whatever.

Post by **spot** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:06 pm

BTS;699582 wrote: [QUOTE=Bryn Mawr;699572][QUOTE=BTS;699571]I can go on and but I won't because I KNOW we (USA) have the BEST health system going.... PERIOD!!!!!!!Can we have a vote on this amongst our American members?[/QUOTE]So tell me Bryn WHY your socialist health care is better than Americas pay as you go, unless you are broke or an illegal then it is FREE system?

Can we have a vote on this amongst our European, Canadian and any other members?

[/QUOTE](quotes trimmed to the barest of context)

Well, BTS, you did ask. The preponderance of US votes (those with experience of US health provisions) said no to "we (USA) have the BEST health system going.... PERIOD!!!!!!!" and the preponderance of non-US votes (those with experience of socialist health care) agreed that "The NHS is better than Americas pay as you go". The polls will stay open, but you do seem to be on the losing side with both of your statements.

jamiebocc · Post by **jamiebocc** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:22 am

RedGlitter;699852 wrote: Well...I don't think so, no. We're already bending over backwards for illegal aliens Spot, how much more "compromise" do you think we should give them?

And that's shame about the English to Welsh deal. Those English should be embarrassed for not even trying.

I agree Red, if a person moves to an other country , they should learn as much of the language as possible.

double helix · Post by **double helix** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:37 pm

spot;697174 wrote: DH, this may be slightly off topic but - you do realize that the British Crown still owns more square miles of North America than the USA does, don't you? You make it sound like you won, that's all.

Yes sweetheart, I do. Do you realize that most of the land they own is wothless arctic wasteland? Yeah, a mean temp of thirty degrees on the best of days, with ice and snow year round.

:wah::wah::wah

Give them time, they may find some more oil buried under the tundra....though I doubt it as golbal warming is quickly overtaking any discovery of oil or...possibly gold.:p

Post by **spot** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:36 am

double helix;701221 wrote: Yes sweetheart, I do. Do you realize that most of the land they own is wothless arctic wasteland? Yeah, a mean temp of thirty degrees on the best of days, with ice and snow year round.

:wah::wah::wah

Give them time, they may find some more oil buried under the tundra....though I doubt it as golbal warming is quickly overtaking any discovery of oil or...possibly gold.:p

Why do people equate value with exploitable? That baffles me. The more that inhospitable natural conditions keep people out the better, it means there's places left for genuine wildlife instead of managed theme-parks. Worthless? That so sums up an attitude of mind, calling it worthless. It's beautiful. John Buchan wrote a great novel about it, Sick Heart River, when he was Governor General. It's well worth finding. Wasteland is a completely mistaken judgment especially, I'd have thought, from someone who lives where you do.

Bored_Wombat · Post by **Bored_Wombat** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:03 am

It turns out that protectionism is bad for the economy, overall, and eventually.

It is economically unsound as well as unethical to protect a market from foreign commodities or labor.

A direct consequence of the USA's anti-foreigner policy is its huge trade deficit.

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:39 pm

RedGlitter;699520 wrote: If you want to honor multiculturalism, then use the language of the people who make it possible for you to do so. That's my opinion.

Wow. I know this was posted a few pages back, but, wow.

First, it is simply outrageous to me that you would even suggest Americans give legal immigrants the permission to honor multiculturalism and therefore they must pay us back by using our native tongue. How absolutely naive!

I definitely agree with learning the so-called primary language of the country you're in. Take my family, for example. My father and his family, full Mexican, moved to America and learned English. He now speaks English better than he speaks Spanish because he doesn't use Spanish all that much due to where we live. So that's good. He's advanced his life the right way, the legal way.

But how dare you say, RedGlitter, that you would be offended to hear someone like my father speaking his true native tongue out in public, even though he knows English forwards and backwards.

How dare you say that just because he bettered his life by moving legally to the states that he must, in return, give up every ounce of his heritage.

I agree with spot. Your statements reek of white supremacy, of "our way is the best way" BS.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:55 pm

Well I dared say it and I'll tell you "how." It is considered rude to speak in a language others may not understand when you are capable of speaking the common tongue.

So get off your stinking high horse Laney. And white supremacy? Shame on you. How can you be so ignorant?

Post by **spot** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:13 pm

RedGlitter;703061 wrote: So get off your stinking high horse Laney. And white supremacy? Shame on you. How can you be so ignorant?Dammit Red, it's exactly what I told you your words sounded like as well - why can't you just accept reasonable criticism? It's exactly what you said, if you can't recognize that then you're just making it even worse.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:19 pm

spot;703076 wrote: Dammit Red, it's exactly what I told you your words sounded like as well - why can't you just accept reasonable criticism? It's exactly what you said, if you can't recognize that then you're just making it even worse.

Spot, I let it slide with you because you didn't know any better. If you knew anything about me you would know that a supremacist is the last thing I'd be. I don't cotton to that and I don't cotton to being called one or having it implied that I am one because I am not nor ever have been. Period.

Post by **spot** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:57 pm

RedGlitter;703078 wrote: Spot, I let it slide with you because you didn't know any better. If you knew anything about me you would know that a supremacist is the last thing I'd be. I don't cotton to that and I don't cotton to being called one or having it implied that I am one because I am not nor ever have been. Period.
Then choose your words with more care. "use the language of the people who make it possible for you to do so" is utterly racist whatever you might think to the contrary. I don't think you have a clue what multiculturalism is about at all - it's a celebration of diversity, not a hierarchic kow-towing to superior ways. Saying "a supremacist is the last thing I'd be" is too simple, this notion that claiming a thing makes it true. You have to do it, not declare it to be a fact. "make it possible for you to do so" is vile.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:58 pm

Well - RED stated we already bend over backwards for the illegals -this actually surprised me, while in Laughlin (gambling City) the Casino had seperate tables for Spanish Speaking Only.

I looked if they had seperate restrooms.??

Patsy

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:18 pm

spot;703090 wrote: Then choose your words with more care. "use the language of the people who make it possible for you to do so" is utterly racist whatever you might think to the contrary. I don't think you have a clue what multiculturalism is about at all - it's a celebration of diversity, not a hierarchic kow-towing to superior ways. Saying "a supremacist is the last thing I'd be" is too simple, this notion that claiming a thing makes it true. You have to do it, not declare it to be a fact. "make it possible for you to do so" is vile.

No. It isn't racist. It's stating that if America allows you to come here, speak the common language. I noticed when some of us Americans said we'd speak and learn the language of whatever country we moved to, no one batted an eye, so you tell me how that's different.

If you take umbrage with the way I say things that's one thing; I'm used to that and don't mind someone asking me to clarify, but please do ask. Just calling someone a racist pig is just as easy and certainly just as vile.

Bored_Wombat · Post by **Bored_Wombat** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:59 pm

RedGlitter;703101 wrote: It's stating that if America allows you to come here, speak the common language. I noticed when some of us Americans said we'd speak and learn the language of whatever country we moved to, no one batted an eye, so you tell me how that's different.

The country benefits from the increased labour pool, and also from the linguistic diversity.

Particularly at this time of Mortgage defaulting, and omnipresent trade deficits for the USA, its economy can certainly use the efficiencies that derive from a greater labour pool. Surely you've got the wrong end of the stick. Americans should learn a bit of Chinese or Spanish to better allow the migrant labour to integrate.

This way around has huge mental health benefits too. If you speak two languages from birth, your senility strikes an average of 5 years later.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:30 pm

Laney

You may have a Mexican heritage, so you speak spanish & English good for you and your family.

When I'm out in public and I speak English you & your family understand what I'm saying.

I find it rude in public to listen to another language - your in the US learn English & speak English - especially in public.

To label someone "White Supremacy" for their opinion, thats down right ugly.

Spot - translation doesn't always come across correctly - you always critique.

You did it to me this morning in a thread for NAZI products.

I just wish I was as perfect as you two - Don't you RED ??

Patsy

Bored_Wombat · Post by **Bored_Wombat** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:22 pm

Patsy Warnick;703138 wrote: Laney

You may have a Mexican heritage, so you speak spanish & English good for you and your family.

When I'm out in public and I speak English you & your family understand what I'm saying.

I find it rude in public to listen to another language - your in the US learn English & speak English - especially in public.
I think that a man and wife should talk in whatever language they communicate best in, no matter where they are. Eavesdropping is not a right, it's a violation of privacy.

The beating of children for the speaking of their native tongue in the school yard is the basis of Culturecide in Australia, and I believe America. Proceed with caution when suggesting laws that are discriminatory against a group because of their language and culture as much as if the were discriminatory because of their colour or religion.

Patsy Warnick;703138 wrote: To label someone "White Supremacy" for their opinion, thats down right ugly.
It depends what that opinion is. If it's their opinion that we should dress up in what sheets and lynch people with a suntan deeper that some allowable level, or that they use their native tongue ...

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:49 pm

skittles2004;703139 wrote: I agree. I mean i speak Navajo... and i don't think i would speak it in front of people who dont understand just because i can. This is america.... SPEAK ENGLISH.... or a form of it... ha ha. Okay wait i understand if the person tries but if they dont and just dont want to then thats just stupid.

OK, silly example but one I see every day here.

Two German tourists who both speak a bit of English riding on the Tube. They ask directions in English and then revert to German to talk amongst themselves. Are they being rude - no way.

My wife and I went to Belgium recently. We both have a smattering of French but between ourselves spoke English. Were we "just stupid", no - if we'd tried to speak French so that the locals would not be offended then we would never have survived the trip.

People will always fall into the mode of communication that is the most effective - effective communication being so vital for everyday life. To expect everyone to speak your language just so that you can understand them is somewhat unrealistic.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:07 am

Bored_Wombat;703148 wrote:

It depends what that opinion is. If it's their opinion that we should dress up in what sheets and lynch people with a suntan deeper that some allowable level, or that they don't use their native tongue ...

How you can compare the KKK's lynching to a request that people have common courtesy for others in their proximity is nuts. And downright low.

We're not talking foreign visitors. Tourists. We're talking people who accept a certain country as their home and yet refuse to speak the common language. It's pure laziness and inconsideration. Nobody said make it a law...we said take it upon yourself to have enough manners to not speak in front of others in a language the others may not understand.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:09 am

skittles2004;703139 wrote: I agree. I mean i speak Navajo... and i don't think i would speak it in front of people who dont understand just because i can. This is america.... SPEAK ENGLISH.... or a form of it... ha ha. Okay wait i understand if the person tries but if they dont and just dont want to then thats just stupid.

This is what I am trying to say, and Skittles said it far better.

Post by **spot** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:07 am

RedGlitter;703164 wrote: This is what I am trying to say, and Skittles said it far better.

You want a melting pot, RG, other people want a salad bowl. The two are different models of society.

Post by **spot** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:16 am

Patsy Warnick;703138 wrote: Spot - translation doesn't always come across correctly - you always critique.

You did it to me this morning in a thread for NAZI products.

I just wish I was as perfect as you two - Don't you RED ??

Patsy

Where did that come from??

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... ostcount=6 is the only post that you can be referring to. How on earth do you regard that post as critical of you - or of anyone?

Bored_Wombat · Post by **Bored_Wombat** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:20 am

RedGlitter;703163 wrote: How you can compare the KKK's lynching to a request that people have common courtesy for others in their proximity is nuts.
Well mostly I was saying it's reasonable to object to some opinions.

But demanding that people use a certain language for private conversations in public spaces is a technique of culturecide, and is associated with horrible abuse here in Australia. I believe that Native Americans were subjected to the same treatment?

At the very least I notice that the American settlers didn't generally only speak the Native American's languages when they were outdoors ... whether that was out of "pure laziness and inconsideration", I can't say.

I think that if you're offended by people speaking in Spanish (or Comanche) in your earshot, you should get over it: They're doing you a favour.

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:27 am

RedGlitter;703061 wrote: Well I dared say it and I'll tell you "how." It is considered rude to speak in a language others may not understand when you are capable of speaking the common tongue.

So get off your stinking high horse Laney. And white supremacy? Shame on you. How can you be so ignorant?

Red, it is considered rude to you. It may not be considered rude to other people. How can it be rude if the conversation doesn't even involve you? I think it's rude that you, or anyone, would be so presumptuous to think that you must directly understand every conversation around you even though most of them do not include you.

If a couple is speaking Spanish, French, German, whatever and you are not involved, then perhaps the etiquette that is lacking is yours. These people do not need to go in private to carry on their native tongue simply because you do not understand the words.

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:32 am

Bored_Wombat;703128 wrote: The country benefits from the increased labour pool, and also from the linguistic diversity.

Particularly at this time of Mortgage defaulting, and omnipresent trade deficits for the USA, its economy can certainly use the efficiencies that derive from a greater labour pool. Surely you've got the wrong end of the stick. Americans should learn a bit of Chinese or Spanish to better allow the migrant labour to integrate.

This way around has huge mental health benefits too. If you speak two languages from birth, your senility strikes an average of 5 years later.

Wonderful point! :yh_clap

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:36 am

Bored_Wombat;703329 wrote: Well mostly I was saying it's reasonable to object to some opinions.

But demanding that people use a certain language for private conversations in public spaces is a technique of culturecide, and is associated with horrible abuse here in Australia. I believe that Native Americans were subjected to the same treatment?

At the very least I notice that the American settlers didn't generally only speak the Native American's languages when they were outdoors ... whether that was out of "pure laziness and inconsideration", I can't say.

I think that if you're offended by people speaking in Spanish (or Comanche) in your earshot, you should get over it: They're doing you a favour.

If someone starts speaking Commanche around me, I put on my hat, jump on my horse and skeedadle the hell out of there..

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:43 am

Patsy Warnick;703138 wrote: Laney

You may have a Mexican heritage, so you speak spanish & English good for you and your family.

When I'm out in public and I speak English you & your family understand what I'm saying.

I find it rude in public to listen to another language - your in the US learn English & speak English - especially in public.

To label someone "White Supremacy" for their opinion, thats down right ugly.

Spot - translation doesn't always come across correctly - you always critique.

You did it to me this morning in a thread for NAZI products.

I just wish I was as perfect as you two - Don't you RED ??

Patsy

Actually, Patsy, I made no comment about myself being able to speak Spanish. I was talking about my father. I speak English only and such little Spanish I couldn't even carry on a conversation with a 4 year old. Sadly, my dad didn't pass such a beautiful language down to me.

If I saw you out in public and you were speaking a made up language between you and your family, I wouldn't give a frickin damn. Why would I care? It's only rude if you begin speaking directly to me in a language so that I can't communicate with you.

Why should someone's native tongue be hidden just because they're in the US? Yes, I did use the words white supremacy because that's exactly what it is. I stand behind that statement. Is that an ugly statement to make? Definitely. And I don't make it lightly. But I think it far uglier for people like yourself to want to take away the rights of others simply because they want to speak their native language in public.

If you went to France to visit and learned some French so you could communicate with the locals, are you telling me that you wouldn't speak a word of English to your friends in public while you were there? How about if you ended up residing their permanently and one of your English-speaking friends came to visit... you wouldn't speak to her in public because it would be oh-so-insulting to those around you? Please. Get a clue.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:12 am

Laney

Well, thats where we have a difference of opinion.

I honestly find it rude period.

I had a wonderful trip to France thank you 1999. I brought a dictionary and the locals were very helpful in translation - majority of the locals spoke English and I enjoyed trying to speak french.

I couldn't imagine traveling and not trying the native tongue to navigate thru the country.

I found your comment/slander ugly - I truely think if the wording is not perfect then its disected.

Red has strong feelings on this issue obviously - but she's not the KKK.

You should be ashamed for even throwing those terms around - but your not.

your proud - that I don't & will not understand..

shame on you

Red has had over 10 thousand posts - try reading them and you'll understand her heart.

Speak any language you want

just don't speak to me

Patsy

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:32 am

Patsy Warnick;703557 wrote: Laney

Well, thats where we have a difference of opinion.

I honestly find it rude period.

I had a wonderful trip to France thank you 1999. I brought a dictionary and the locals were very helpful in translation - majority of the locals spoke English and I enjoyed trying to speak french.

I couldn't imagine traveling and not trying the native tongue to navigate thru the country.

I found your comment/slander ugly - I truely think if the wording is not perfect then its disected.

Red has strong feelings on this issue obviously - but she's not the KKK.

You should be ashamed for even throwing those terms around - but your not.

your proud - that I don't & will not understand..

shame on you

Red has had over 10 thousand posts - try reading them and you'll understand her heart.

Speak any language you want

just don't speak to me

Patsy

And why weren't you offended that the locals in France were speaking English in public? What an atrocity!

Natives in France speaking English? I am simply outraged. The locals must be appalled at their very own people speaking English. How rude! What a disgrace! What a backstab to the very core of the country!

As for being proud.... certainly not as proud as those who feel they have the right to tell other people what to do. I don't care if you think it's rude that others speak in a language you can't understand. And, honestly, those people obviously don't give a crap what you think, either. Find it rude all you want. This truthfully minor insult to your sensibilities will not change the reality of the world we live in.

I'm absolutely disgusted that you and Red can stand on a virtual mountain and preach and insult those around you, but when others disagree, it's absolutely intolerable to you. The world does not revolve around what you two think is rude. It doesn't revolve around what I think is rude, either. There are many ideas, philosophies and ways of living that keep this world turning. A little respect for others may be in order if you'd like a little respect returned to you.

What's the use of an open conversation if only one opinion is going to be allowed? I might as well being speaking a foreign language to you, anyway.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:52 am

Because of the business I am in I have many Spanish speaking customers, I also have Asian customers who know little or no English. I can't say it bothers me all that much that we battle to understand each other and fight through the language barriers so that I can understand exactly the product they are looking for. Some (not all) usually try to bring along a friend or relative who has some working knowledge of English which helps. I figure most of them would love to know our language so that they could converse with us better, but they may not have been here long enough to have gotten a grasp yet. I even have a customer from (legally) Albania who is very loyal to me and my products because I have given him the attention needed to figure out exactly what he needs even if we both have to point at pictures or I get on the internet and find some interpretations for the both of us. He is getting better and better at English and he may be the most polite man I know. We always have a good laugh once we figure out what the hell each of us was trying to say. Now I have him teach me a few words of his language (Tosk dialect).

Post by **spot** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:12 pm

What screams out of this thread is that Americans expect, as a right, that people abroad be able to use English once the few learned words have dried up, but that people coming to the USA get no such privilege. And yes, I'm talking about migrants rather than mere holidaymakers. I've stayed with UK and American residents in France and in Italy who had lived there for years. A few spoke sufficient to get by, most relied on their hosts' English for conversation.

The salad bowl approach to multiculturalism, then. It is a matter of delight to me that there are immigrant communities in the UK which continue to use their own language and that's been true since I was at school, it's not just a recent phenomenon. An ideal society is multilingual, not homogeneous. Any one language ranking over any other is cultural imperialism.

If enough people want to use a second language then that, de facto, becomes a second language to the region it's being used in. If more people end up speaking Spanish or Portuguese or Japanese in a given area of the USA are you going to learn that language instead of English? Of course you're not. You think the USA should be monolingual and that English is your god-given right to impose on everyone else. That's a pretty good definition of cultural prejudice to me. If I were a Spanish speaker you'd not hear a word of English from me in such a stand-off climate, I'd be beefing up my home team's rights.

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:42 pm

spot;703603 wrote: What screams out of this thread is that Americans expect, as a right, that people abroad be able to use English once the few learned words have dried up, but that people coming to the USA get no such privilege. And yes, I'm talking about migrants rather than mere holidaymakers. I've stayed with UK and American residents in France and in Italy who had lived there for years. A few spoke sufficient to get by, most relied on their hosts' English for conversation.

The salad bowl approach to multiculturalism, then. It is a matter of delight to me that there are immigrant communities in the UK which continue to use their own language and that's been true since I was at school, it's not just a recent phenomenon. An ideal society is multilingual, not homogeneous. Any one language ranking over any other is cultural imperialism.

If enough people want to use a second language then that, de facto, becomes a second language to the region it's being used in. If more people end up speaking Spanish or Portuguese or Japanese in a given area of the USA are you going to learn that language instead of English? Of course you're not. You think the USA should be monolingual and that English is your god-given right to impose on everyone else. That's a pretty good definition of cultural prejudice to me. If I were a Spanish speaker you'd not hear a word of English from me in such a stand-off climate, I'd be beefing up my home team's rights.

I've highlighted a few sentences that I really agree with, but this whole post is just so damn perfect that I couldn't cut away the rest. I agree 100% with this post. It couldn't have been said better and really gets to the heart of the matter. Excellent job. :yh_clap :yh_clap :yh_clap

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:45 pm

spot;703603 wrote: What screams out of this thread is that Americans expect, as a right, that people abroad be able to use English once the few learned words have dried up, but that people coming to the USA get no such privilege. And yes, I'm talking about migrants rather than mere holidaymakers. I've stayed with UK and American residents in France and in Italy who had lived there for years. A few spoke sufficient to get by, most relied on their hosts' English for conversation.

The salad bowl approach to multiculturalism, then. It is a matter of delight to me that there are immigrant communities in the UK which continue to use their own language and that's been true since I was at school, it's not just a recent phenomenon. An ideal society is multilingual, not homogeneous. Any one language ranking over any other is cultural imperialism.

If enough people want to use a second language then that, de facto, becomes a second language to the region it's being used in. If more people end up speaking Spanish or Portuguese or Japanese in a given area of the USA are you going to learn that language instead of English? Of course you're not. You think the USA should be monolingual and that English is your god-given right to impose on everyone else. That's a pretty good definition of cultural prejudice to me. If I were a Spanish speaker you'd not hear a word of English from me in such a stand-off climate, I'd be beefing up my home team's rights.

Oh for crying out loud Spot, that is a ridiculous statement. I assume you know and speak all languages of all the immigrants in the UK. If not than your are calling the kettle, black.

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:57 pm

YZGI;703618 wrote:

Oh for crying out loud Spot, that is a ridiculous statement. I assume you know and speak all languages of all the immigrants in the UK. If not than your are calling the kettle, black.

How was he even insinuating that he knew every language spoken in the UK? That's a huge assumption and certainly not validated with anything he just posted.

Honoring multilingualism does not mean you're bouncing around saying "I can speak every language!" Where do you get that?

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:02 pm

laneybug;703621 wrote: How was he even insinuating that he knew every language spoken in the UK? That's a huge assumption and certainly not validated with anything he just posted.

Honoring multilingualism does not mean you're bouncing around saying "I can speak every language!" Where do you get that?

spot;703603 wrote: What screams out of this thread is that Americans expect, as a right, that people abroad be able to use English once the few learned words have dried up, but that people coming to the USA get no such privilege. And yes, I'm talking about migrants rather than mere holidaymakers. I've stayed with UK and American residents in France and in Italy who had lived there for years. A few spoke sufficient to get by, most relied on their hosts' English for conversation.

The salad bowl approach to multiculturalism, then. It is a matter of delight to me that there are immigrant communities in the UK which continue to use their own language and that's been true since I was at school, it's not just a recent phenomenon. An ideal society is multilingual, not homogeneous. Any one language ranking over any other is cultural imperialism.

If enough people want to use a second language then that, de facto, becomes a second language to the region it's being used in. If more people end up speaking Spanish or Portuguese or Japanese in a given area of the USA are you going to learn that language instead of English? Of course you're not. You think the USA should be monolingual and that English is your god-given right to impose on everyone else. That's a pretty good definition of cultural prejudice to me. If I were a Spanish speaker you'd not hear a word of English from me in such a stand-off climate, I'd be beefing up my home team's rights.
I say this is no different than the majority in the UK,Mexico, Iran, Albania or almost any other country in the world. He just loves finding different ways to bait and bash the US.

Post by **spot** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:06 pm

YZGI;703618 wrote: Oh for crying out loud Spot, that is a ridiculous statement. I assume you know and speak all languages of all the immigrants in the UK. If not than your are calling the kettle, black.

I stand by what I said and it seems clear to me that your assumption and condition is mistaken. Of course I can like that situation without having to be able to talk to every group in their own language. I've often been to parties where half a dozen languages have been in use and everyone translates along for each other as they go, it's great fun. In some places that's considered normal. Not, it would seem, in the USA.

This discussion is, as so many of them have, dividing into two camps, the imperialists with their manifest destiny opposing the internationalists who celebrate cultural diversity. Either one culture is inherently superior to another or it isn't. Some of us think one is, some of us find the concept repugnant. We're reaching a point where I can predict who will tend in each direction.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:15 pm

spot;703630 wrote: I stand by what I said and it seems clear to me that your assumption and condition is mistaken. Of course I can like that situation without having to be able to talk to every group in their own language. I've often been to parties where half a dozen languages have been in use and everyone translates along for each other as they go, it's great fun. In some places that's considered normal. Not, it would seem, in the USA.

This discussion is, as so many of them have, dividing into two camps, the imperialists with their manifest destiny opposing the internationalists who celebrate cultural diversity. Either one culture is inherently superior to another or it isn't. Some of us think one is, some of us find the concept repugnant. We're reaching a point where I can predict who will tend in each direction.

I don't think the majority in the US want to become a Spanish speaking country anymore or less than I think the majority in the UK want to become lets say a French or Arabic speaking country.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:26 pm

YZGI;703625 wrote: I say this is no different than the majority in the UK,Mexico, Iran, Albania or almost any other country in the world. He just loves finding different ways to bait and bash the US.

To me he's saying, fairly explicitly, that he's NOT going to learn all of the other languages - but respects the peoples right to speak them.