spot;695256 wrote: Here you go, DH, this is where it happened - the first governing document of the United States of America, ratified on March 1, 1781, "The Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union"Article III. The said States hereby severally enter into a firm league of friendship with each other, for their common defense, the security of their liberties, and their mutual and general welfare, binding themselves to assist each other, against all force offered to, or attacks made upon them, or any of them, on account of religion, sovereignty, trade, or any other pretense whatever.
Article IV. The better to secure and perpetuate mutual friendship and intercourse among the people of the different States in this Union, the free inhabitants of each of these States, paupers, vagabonds, and fugitives from justice excepted, shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of free citizens in the several States; and the people of each State shall have free ingress and regress to and from any other State, [...]That's the decision point that there would be open borders between the 50 states by agreement. "If you'd not permitted that in the days when the US was created then you'd be crying out against illegal Nebraskans crossing the Utah border today" is what I said. It seems an accurate statement to me.
When it was signed, there was a distinction between "citizen" and "resident". There was an open national border allowing residence even for non-citizens. Your legislature invented the prohibition on entry from Mexico to the USA where none previously existed, I'll even go and look up when for you if you like - it was in 1965. Before the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 the border between Mexico and the USA was an open border to US and Mexican citizens. Then those who continued the previously legal free movement were criminalized by legislation. That's when the label "criminal" was imposed by the US on those who continued to enter the US without US documentation. As I started, "Any prohibition law will generate crime where no crime previously existed", and I don't see anything inaccurate about such a statement.
First of all spot, Mexico is not a State of the Union. It is a country of its own and as far as I know, was never and has never been a part of the UNITED STATES.
The fact that the border was open before 65 says what, spot? That perhaps Mexico was able to sustain it's population fairly well until the sixties, then as their economy WENT BANKRUPT from drug dealers and gang bangers killing each other and bad politics sucking the life out of the middle class, and a MASSIVE move of poor Mexicans, drug movers and fugitives began to drag their problems into America. Yeah, we slammed the doors shut! Yeah Americans demaned the flow of criminal elements be stemmed.
Yes spot, and Americans had the gaul to question giving our jobs to those willing to do the work for less pay and undercut our hourly wage and destablize our economy.
The people of the US continue to have the gaul to question the illigals who sneak into our county, take the jobs our young people should be given, suck up health care services that could be givin to US citizens, cause property loss and commit crimes against US citizens . Gee, and all we ask is that they apply for entry like every one else. If they want to sneak into the country to steal from the Ameircan people, and die in the process....:-3 well thats really a no brainer. Too bad. Shove the body into a cardboard coffin and send it back across the border.
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
-
double helix
- Posts: 257
- Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:32 pm
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
watermark;695203 wrote: The point I make is I have realized that my son's friend and family aren't criminals, they are great people, yet they can't participate in every opportunity provided others in the US because they don't have a legal entrance here. Btw his family is not from Mexico.
And you thought you couldn't express yourself eloquently... That was a great post with some important perspective
RedGlitter;695211 wrote: US did not create Mexico's poverty. That is Mexico's own doing and Mexico makes its people suffer.
Quite often we hear Americans (and others) asking not to be held personally responsible for the actions of their government. The reason is that individuals, even in democracies, have little direct control over the conditions in their own countries.
RedGlitter;695214 wrote:
Yes, I agree that we are one species, the human one. But everyone should have the right to protect what is theirs and the US is every legal American's home. When you're a guest in someone's home, you always leave the best piece of meat for the host. It doesn't matter you may be the guest of honor, you are still a guest in another person's home.
That is so opposite to how I was raised. I always give the best portions to my guests first then to my other family members then serve myself last.
Protect what is theirs??
What is ours? I personally don't believe that anything belongs to me except my body and mind. Everything else is on loan until I die.
RedGlitter;695216 wrote: Start putting the blame on their own people for oppressing their country and stop expecting USA to wear Mexico's black eye. So does foreign aid also go by way of the window in your world, Red?
RedGlitter;695434 wrote:
Spot, what happens when the US becomes saturated? And it will. We may have some people moving out but we would have far more coming in. What happens when our welfare becomes even more scarce- and please don't tell me the Mexicans will take all the buck-an-hour jobs that we don't want; that doesn't wash. What happens when we use up our pristine lands to build more stinking housing for all these new "citizens?" What do we do with the new crime element? Build more prisons that suck up more tax money? Do we continue to overcrowd our schools and provide lesser education to all because we must benefit the some?
I think the US would be awash in Mexicans to start with. I don't know where Americans would move to; I would stay here, perhaps move to a cooler state. It's my home.
Typically, foreign workers complain less and work cheaper. That's the only reason they are not appreciated. And, mostly, they are the ones building your houses.
Where is it designated as a key human right? Where is this list?
There actually are lists of what countries feel are important rights to them. I'll fetch one for you if needed.
SuzyB;695453 wrote:
Would I see others go without so I could have more? No way.
:-6
And you thought you couldn't express yourself eloquently... That was a great post with some important perspective
RedGlitter;695211 wrote: US did not create Mexico's poverty. That is Mexico's own doing and Mexico makes its people suffer.
Quite often we hear Americans (and others) asking not to be held personally responsible for the actions of their government. The reason is that individuals, even in democracies, have little direct control over the conditions in their own countries.
RedGlitter;695214 wrote:
Yes, I agree that we are one species, the human one. But everyone should have the right to protect what is theirs and the US is every legal American's home. When you're a guest in someone's home, you always leave the best piece of meat for the host. It doesn't matter you may be the guest of honor, you are still a guest in another person's home.
That is so opposite to how I was raised. I always give the best portions to my guests first then to my other family members then serve myself last.
Protect what is theirs??
What is ours? I personally don't believe that anything belongs to me except my body and mind. Everything else is on loan until I die.
RedGlitter;695216 wrote: Start putting the blame on their own people for oppressing their country and stop expecting USA to wear Mexico's black eye. So does foreign aid also go by way of the window in your world, Red?
RedGlitter;695434 wrote:
Spot, what happens when the US becomes saturated? And it will. We may have some people moving out but we would have far more coming in. What happens when our welfare becomes even more scarce- and please don't tell me the Mexicans will take all the buck-an-hour jobs that we don't want; that doesn't wash. What happens when we use up our pristine lands to build more stinking housing for all these new "citizens?" What do we do with the new crime element? Build more prisons that suck up more tax money? Do we continue to overcrowd our schools and provide lesser education to all because we must benefit the some?
I think the US would be awash in Mexicans to start with. I don't know where Americans would move to; I would stay here, perhaps move to a cooler state. It's my home.
Typically, foreign workers complain less and work cheaper. That's the only reason they are not appreciated. And, mostly, they are the ones building your houses.
Where is it designated as a key human right? Where is this list?
There actually are lists of what countries feel are important rights to them. I'll fetch one for you if needed.
SuzyB;695453 wrote:
Would I see others go without so I could have more? No way.
:-6
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
RedGlitter;695472 wrote: ...Their own meaning their own citizens, not their own as in fellow human beings, in case Koan brings that up. (Ha! Kidding, Koan) 
:D missed that one
Scrat;695517 wrote: I feel sorry for them but on the other hand why don't they change their own country?
hell, why don't you change yours? :wah:
I believe you've been at the top of the FG list of people who don't like their government ever since I've "met" you, Scrat. So what's wrong with you? Why haven't you changed it yet?
It seems to me that there is still this huge concept that the USA is everyone's first choice of countries to live in if borders fell away. It just isn't true.
:D missed that one
Scrat;695517 wrote: I feel sorry for them but on the other hand why don't they change their own country?
hell, why don't you change yours? :wah:
I believe you've been at the top of the FG list of people who don't like their government ever since I've "met" you, Scrat. So what's wrong with you? Why haven't you changed it yet?
It seems to me that there is still this huge concept that the USA is everyone's first choice of countries to live in if borders fell away. It just isn't true.
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
koan;695659 wrote:
It seems to me that there is still this huge concept that the USA is everyone's first choice of countries to live in if borders fell away. It just isn't true.
over a million people immigrate here every year and that number would only increase if the borders were open to everyone. What country has or would have a higher figure than that?
:-3
It seems to me that there is still this huge concept that the USA is everyone's first choice of countries to live in if borders fell away. It just isn't true.
over a million people immigrate here every year and that number would only increase if the borders were open to everyone. What country has or would have a higher figure than that?
:-3-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
koan;695656 wrote:
That is so opposite to how I was raised. I always give the best portions to my guests first then to my other family members then serve myself last.
Yes. We were taught that too. But at the same time there's this weird protocol between guest and host. The host's job is to offer the softest bed, the best of the food to their guest as a gesture of hospitality and the guest's job is to insist that's not necessary. At some point a compromise is reached. I would have no problem giving someone in my home the best I had to offer if I invited them or if they dropped in as someone I wanted to see. But if I didn't invite them or they're not even family but just a couple leeches come to dog me around for what they could get, I'd deeply resent them and after a while send them home. Please apply this to the illegal aliens as a scenario. Like Joan Baez sings "Take what you need and leave the rest, but they should never have taken the very best." Aliens are taking for free the best we have to give and it's bullsh*t! It's time to cut that crap out.
koan;695656 wrote: Protect what is theirs??
What is ours? I personally don't believe that anything belongs to me except my body and mind. Everything else is on loan until I die.
So does foreign aid also go by way of the window in your world, Red?
I'm not sure how you mean, Koan. God knows the US gives enough foreign aid; how much more would you have us provide?
As to what is ours, it's our job to steward the land we live on. To create a functioning society to live in. We have that right to protect what is ours including the integrity of the society we have to live in. We were born unto or were naturalized into living on this piece of land, it is ours to handle as we see fit. (I'm waiting for the Indian and Mexico comments, just so everyone knows I'm prepared for those) I can appreciate the "all-is-one" world love mentality but it doesn't work. Not when you have people sponging left and right.
koan;695656 wrote: Typically, foreign workers complain less and work cheaper. That's the only reason they are not appreciated. And, mostly, they are the ones building your houses.
They're not appreciated because by working cheaper and being happy to do so, they are singlehandedly destroying the value of our wage rate. Not to mention it takes skill to build a house and construction workers and contractors are paid well for what they do for that reason. I hear people whine about how illegals take the jobs Americans won't, well there's a reason for that- they're sh*t jobs that don't pay chicken scratch. We have bills to pay and mouths to feed and it's time employers respected that and honored it and paid a decent living wage one can survive on, rather than pull the lowdown act of hiring an illegal who thinks it's a gift from God to work for two bucks an hour. Since when did it become honorable to stab a citizen in the back because he won't work for a starving wage?! When did this become an acceptable way of thinking? What kind of ethics are those?
koan;695656 wrote: There actually are lists of what countries feel are important rights to them. I'll fetch one for you if needed.
Sure, I wouldn't mind looking at them. Please include an American one too so we can compare.
I want what's fair for my country. I see absolutely nothing wrong in demanding that because so far asking has gotten us nowhere.
That is so opposite to how I was raised. I always give the best portions to my guests first then to my other family members then serve myself last.
Yes. We were taught that too. But at the same time there's this weird protocol between guest and host. The host's job is to offer the softest bed, the best of the food to their guest as a gesture of hospitality and the guest's job is to insist that's not necessary. At some point a compromise is reached. I would have no problem giving someone in my home the best I had to offer if I invited them or if they dropped in as someone I wanted to see. But if I didn't invite them or they're not even family but just a couple leeches come to dog me around for what they could get, I'd deeply resent them and after a while send them home. Please apply this to the illegal aliens as a scenario. Like Joan Baez sings "Take what you need and leave the rest, but they should never have taken the very best." Aliens are taking for free the best we have to give and it's bullsh*t! It's time to cut that crap out.
koan;695656 wrote: Protect what is theirs??
What is ours? I personally don't believe that anything belongs to me except my body and mind. Everything else is on loan until I die.
So does foreign aid also go by way of the window in your world, Red?
I'm not sure how you mean, Koan. God knows the US gives enough foreign aid; how much more would you have us provide?
As to what is ours, it's our job to steward the land we live on. To create a functioning society to live in. We have that right to protect what is ours including the integrity of the society we have to live in. We were born unto or were naturalized into living on this piece of land, it is ours to handle as we see fit. (I'm waiting for the Indian and Mexico comments, just so everyone knows I'm prepared for those) I can appreciate the "all-is-one" world love mentality but it doesn't work. Not when you have people sponging left and right.
koan;695656 wrote: Typically, foreign workers complain less and work cheaper. That's the only reason they are not appreciated. And, mostly, they are the ones building your houses.
They're not appreciated because by working cheaper and being happy to do so, they are singlehandedly destroying the value of our wage rate. Not to mention it takes skill to build a house and construction workers and contractors are paid well for what they do for that reason. I hear people whine about how illegals take the jobs Americans won't, well there's a reason for that- they're sh*t jobs that don't pay chicken scratch. We have bills to pay and mouths to feed and it's time employers respected that and honored it and paid a decent living wage one can survive on, rather than pull the lowdown act of hiring an illegal who thinks it's a gift from God to work for two bucks an hour. Since when did it become honorable to stab a citizen in the back because he won't work for a starving wage?! When did this become an acceptable way of thinking? What kind of ethics are those?
koan;695656 wrote: There actually are lists of what countries feel are important rights to them. I'll fetch one for you if needed.
Sure, I wouldn't mind looking at them. Please include an American one too so we can compare.
I want what's fair for my country. I see absolutely nothing wrong in demanding that because so far asking has gotten us nowhere.
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
RedGlitter;695689 wrote: Sure, I wouldn't mind looking at them. Please include an American one too so we can compare.
I want what's fair for my country. I see absolutely nothing wrong in demanding that because so far asking has gotten us nowhere.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement
eta: the canadian charter of rights and freedoms you'll find 'mobility rights' in huge letters.
http://www.efc.ca/pages/law/charter/charter.text.html
I want what's fair for my country. I see absolutely nothing wrong in demanding that because so far asking has gotten us nowhere.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement
eta: the canadian charter of rights and freedoms you'll find 'mobility rights' in huge letters.
http://www.efc.ca/pages/law/charter/charter.text.html
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
spot;695330 wrote: Strangely enough that's a question I can answer with examples, not merely with conjecture.
Each time the European Union (EU) expands to take in a new Eastern European member state we go from prohibition of entry to free open border movement, legal indefinite residence and full employment permission, which is exactly what you're asking about. The Hungarian or Czech or Polish or Lithuanian worker, once open border arrangements are in place, can move to and work in any of the other EU member states. Many do. Wages have not dropped in the UK in consequence, not that I've seen, though the UK now has (for example) one Polish resident in 120 here. Just under 1% of UK residents are Poles now. By contrast though, the removal of a proportion of the workforce from Poland has raised wages there noticeably. Those increased local wages are now tempting UK-resident Poles to return to Poland. A stable balance of movement will happen sooner rather than later.
There's no reason at all why the same shouldn't work with the US/Mexico pressure.
If you want hard real numbers I can look for them, but that's the gist. What would happen? The same as across Europe. The earning disparities were similar, the overall population numbers are not a lot different.
Spot are you saying anyone in the EU can come and go as they please undocumented?
What if a Hungarian came over undocumented and went to work for Jimbo for 10 pounds an day cash, he doesn't want to pay taxes so he takes less money and has no benefits. Jimbo only has to come up with 10 pounds a day for pay, compared to lets say 100 pounds a day for a documented worker that pays taxes. Now the undocumented worker gets sick, goes to the hospital, is not turned away because he is severly sick. They cure him and release him. He then goes back to Hungry because he doesn't want to pay the bill.
Is this acceptable to you?
Each time the European Union (EU) expands to take in a new Eastern European member state we go from prohibition of entry to free open border movement, legal indefinite residence and full employment permission, which is exactly what you're asking about. The Hungarian or Czech or Polish or Lithuanian worker, once open border arrangements are in place, can move to and work in any of the other EU member states. Many do. Wages have not dropped in the UK in consequence, not that I've seen, though the UK now has (for example) one Polish resident in 120 here. Just under 1% of UK residents are Poles now. By contrast though, the removal of a proportion of the workforce from Poland has raised wages there noticeably. Those increased local wages are now tempting UK-resident Poles to return to Poland. A stable balance of movement will happen sooner rather than later.
There's no reason at all why the same shouldn't work with the US/Mexico pressure.
If you want hard real numbers I can look for them, but that's the gist. What would happen? The same as across Europe. The earning disparities were similar, the overall population numbers are not a lot different.
Spot are you saying anyone in the EU can come and go as they please undocumented?
What if a Hungarian came over undocumented and went to work for Jimbo for 10 pounds an day cash, he doesn't want to pay taxes so he takes less money and has no benefits. Jimbo only has to come up with 10 pounds a day for pay, compared to lets say 100 pounds a day for a documented worker that pays taxes. Now the undocumented worker gets sick, goes to the hospital, is not turned away because he is severly sick. They cure him and release him. He then goes back to Hungry because he doesn't want to pay the bill.
Is this acceptable to you?
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
jimbo;695705 wrote: i'm not paying those kinda wages he can have £2 and a bottle of water and some fish and chips i dont want to spoil him the country will be full of them if i do :wah::wah:
We just have them drink from the hose here.:wah:
We just have them drink from the hose here.:wah:
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
YZGI;695703 wrote: Spot are you saying anyone in the EU can come and go as they please undocumented?
What if a Hungarian came over undocumented and went to work for Jimbo for 10 pounds an day cash, he doesn't want to pay taxes so he takes less money and has no benefits. Jimbo only has to come up with 10 pounds a day for pay, compared to lets say 100 pounds a day for a documented worker that pays taxes. Now the undocumented worker gets sick, goes to the hospital, is not turned away because he is severly sick. They cure him and release him. He then goes back to Hungry because he doesn't want to pay the bill.
Is this acceptable to you?He's incapable of being undocumented, he has a legal right to go anywhere in the European Union. He can come to the UK to work any time he likes just as a Utah resident can go to Kansas, and he qualifies here for free medical treatment.
Take a better example, a non European Union citizen like a Russian. If he did what you're saying then of course it wouldn't be acceptable. I'd like to have Russia join the European Union and allow him to behave like the Hungarian though. I'd like an international framework that extended the open border freedom of the European Union world-wide. I'm sure it will happen.
If anyone wants to read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights they'll find quite a few non-negotiable absolutes regarding guaranteed freedom of movement. They've been there for 60 years. I'd like to extend them.
What if a Hungarian came over undocumented and went to work for Jimbo for 10 pounds an day cash, he doesn't want to pay taxes so he takes less money and has no benefits. Jimbo only has to come up with 10 pounds a day for pay, compared to lets say 100 pounds a day for a documented worker that pays taxes. Now the undocumented worker gets sick, goes to the hospital, is not turned away because he is severly sick. They cure him and release him. He then goes back to Hungry because he doesn't want to pay the bill.
Is this acceptable to you?He's incapable of being undocumented, he has a legal right to go anywhere in the European Union. He can come to the UK to work any time he likes just as a Utah resident can go to Kansas, and he qualifies here for free medical treatment.
Take a better example, a non European Union citizen like a Russian. If he did what you're saying then of course it wouldn't be acceptable. I'd like to have Russia join the European Union and allow him to behave like the Hungarian though. I'd like an international framework that extended the open border freedom of the European Union world-wide. I'm sure it will happen.
If anyone wants to read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights they'll find quite a few non-negotiable absolutes regarding guaranteed freedom of movement. They've been there for 60 years. I'd like to extend them.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
spot;695715 wrote: He's incapable of being undocumented, he has a legal right to come here, to work, to free medical treatment.
Take a better example, a non European Union citizen like a Russian. If he did what you're saying then of course it wouldn't be acceptable. I'd like to have Russia join the European Union and allow him to behave like the Hungarian though. I'd like an international framework that extended the open border freedom of the European Union world-wide. I'm sure it will happen.
If anyone wants to read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights they'll find quite a few non-negotiable absolutes regarding guaranteed freedom of movement. They've been there for 60 years. I'd like to extend them.
So, they need no passport, visa, etc. etc. at all to enter and work in the country of choice?
Take a better example, a non European Union citizen like a Russian. If he did what you're saying then of course it wouldn't be acceptable. I'd like to have Russia join the European Union and allow him to behave like the Hungarian though. I'd like an international framework that extended the open border freedom of the European Union world-wide. I'm sure it will happen.
If anyone wants to read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights they'll find quite a few non-negotiable absolutes regarding guaranteed freedom of movement. They've been there for 60 years. I'd like to extend them.
So, they need no passport, visa, etc. etc. at all to enter and work in the country of choice?
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
YZGI;695718 wrote: So, they need no passport, visa, etc. etc. at all to enter and work in the country of choice?
No, Wiseguy. Travel across the whole EU for EU citizens is just like travel from one state to another in the US. Some EU countries demand official identity papers of all EU citizens including their own but a driving license is as acceptable as a passport.
No, Wiseguy. Travel across the whole EU for EU citizens is just like travel from one state to another in the US. Some EU countries demand official identity papers of all EU citizens including their own but a driving license is as acceptable as a passport.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
spot;695755 wrote: No, Wiseguy. Travel across the whole EU for EU citizens is just like travel from one state to another in the US. Some EU countries demand official identity papers of all EU citizens including their own but a driving license is as acceptable as a passport.
I didn't know that.
There is one big difference here. Even if we let them in at their own will, We still would not be able to have the same rights in their country as they have in ours. I suppose if it went both ways it would eventually work out but with the political corruption in both countries, we would probably never be able to work out a fair deal where all North Americans would have equal rights in all of North America.
I didn't know that.
There is one big difference here. Even if we let them in at their own will, We still would not be able to have the same rights in their country as they have in ours. I suppose if it went both ways it would eventually work out but with the political corruption in both countries, we would probably never be able to work out a fair deal where all North Americans would have equal rights in all of North America.
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
YZGI is right.
I don't know how it works in the EU, but in order for it to work here and in Mexico, we would have to have the same rights and freedoms. If not, then, regardless of 'open borders', the Mexicans would come over here, apply for welfare, food stamps and government chesse and then sit on their asses. :-5
Once they become legal citizens, the law requires that they make a minimum wage not a cheap wage. They wouldn't want these jobs then. They would be no different from anyone else. They would make more sitting in front of the TV than working for two bucks an hour.
Any dumbass that says they are taking our jobs from us is full of it. Don't you think anyone would rather have someone who speaks English and will not have him sent to jail for employing an illegal? Check the help wanted section of your newpaper any day of the week and tell me the illegals are taking our jobs. Take a trip to the coast after school starts and tell me there are no help wanted signs. For craps sake, go to New Orleans and check out the help wanted signs there!
Once they become citizens, who's going to do those jobs that they do now? We will, just like we always have. The only reason they are doing them now is because their employers can get away with paying them less than minimum wage. Name me one American citizen that will work for their wage? Not even the homeless will do it. Once they become citizens, why should they continue doing it?? They won't and it will not be offered to them because it will be against the law!
If they all become citizens of this country they will take advantage of the system, sit back on their laurels and be no different from a lot of our own citizens. Do we really need more of a drain on our welfare system?
And that is why we will not have 'open borders' as you guys say. Too many influential people can get away with hiring illegals and not paying minimum wage. Get rid of the illegals, get rid of unions and put Americans back to work and off welfare.
JMO, by the way.:-6
I don't know how it works in the EU, but in order for it to work here and in Mexico, we would have to have the same rights and freedoms. If not, then, regardless of 'open borders', the Mexicans would come over here, apply for welfare, food stamps and government chesse and then sit on their asses. :-5
Once they become legal citizens, the law requires that they make a minimum wage not a cheap wage. They wouldn't want these jobs then. They would be no different from anyone else. They would make more sitting in front of the TV than working for two bucks an hour.
Any dumbass that says they are taking our jobs from us is full of it. Don't you think anyone would rather have someone who speaks English and will not have him sent to jail for employing an illegal? Check the help wanted section of your newpaper any day of the week and tell me the illegals are taking our jobs. Take a trip to the coast after school starts and tell me there are no help wanted signs. For craps sake, go to New Orleans and check out the help wanted signs there!
Once they become citizens, who's going to do those jobs that they do now? We will, just like we always have. The only reason they are doing them now is because their employers can get away with paying them less than minimum wage. Name me one American citizen that will work for their wage? Not even the homeless will do it. Once they become citizens, why should they continue doing it?? They won't and it will not be offered to them because it will be against the law!
If they all become citizens of this country they will take advantage of the system, sit back on their laurels and be no different from a lot of our own citizens. Do we really need more of a drain on our welfare system?
And that is why we will not have 'open borders' as you guys say. Too many influential people can get away with hiring illegals and not paying minimum wage. Get rid of the illegals, get rid of unions and put Americans back to work and off welfare.
JMO, by the way.:-6
When choosing between two evils, I always like to take the one I've never tried before.
Mae West
Mae West
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
911, I carefully pointed out that people can have residency rights without citizenship. By all means deny them citizenship. No non-British EU member has UK citizenship though he does have a right to reside and work here. There's a big distinction.
You really think that pitiable US minimum wage is meaningfully higher than zero? It should embarrass everyone in the country that you dare to pay anyone so little.
You really think that pitiable US minimum wage is meaningfully higher than zero? It should embarrass everyone in the country that you dare to pay anyone so little.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
One thing the Spot has neglected to mention is that, when an EU member country pays benefits to a citizen of another EU country under these agreements they reclaim the cost of those benefits from the citizen's home country. This includes benifits in kind such as medical treatment.
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
[quote=911;695796]
Any dumbass that says they are taking our jobs from us is full of it. Don't you think anyone would rather have someone who speaks English and will not have him sent to jail for employing an illegal? Check the help wanted section of your newpaper any day of the week and tell me the illegals are taking our jobs. Take a trip to the coast after school starts and tell me there are no help wanted signs. For craps sake, go to New Orleans and check out the help wanted signs there!
JMO, by the way.:-6[/quote
I guess you're calling me and several others dumbasses then, 911, because if you think for one minute that illegals are not ALREADY taking our jobs, you better have another think coming. You're mostly correct with the rest but laughably mistaken on that one aspect. Come on down to my town and I'll show ya.
Any dumbass that says they are taking our jobs from us is full of it. Don't you think anyone would rather have someone who speaks English and will not have him sent to jail for employing an illegal? Check the help wanted section of your newpaper any day of the week and tell me the illegals are taking our jobs. Take a trip to the coast after school starts and tell me there are no help wanted signs. For craps sake, go to New Orleans and check out the help wanted signs there!
JMO, by the way.:-6[/quote
I guess you're calling me and several others dumbasses then, 911, because if you think for one minute that illegals are not ALREADY taking our jobs, you better have another think coming. You're mostly correct with the rest but laughably mistaken on that one aspect. Come on down to my town and I'll show ya.
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
RedGlitter;695891 wrote: [quote=911;695796]
Any dumbass that says they are taking our jobs from us is full of it. Don't you think anyone would rather have someone who speaks English and will not have him sent to jail for employing an illegal? Check the help wanted section of your newpaper any day of the week and tell me the illegals are taking our jobs. Take a trip to the coast after school starts and tell me there are no help wanted signs. For craps sake, go to New Orleans and check out the help wanted signs there!
JMO, by the way.:-6
I guess you're calling me and several others dumbasses then, 911, because if you think for one minute that illegals are not ALREADY taking our jobs, you better have another think coming. You're mostly correct with the rest but laughably mistaken on that one aspect. Come on down to my town and I'll show ya.
How many of these "illegals" do you think are working within your economy and how many citizens are unemployed and actively seeking work?
The problem you Fed sees is the economy working at near capacity - too few workers for the jobs to be done rather than rampant unemployment. Take out the problems in the construction industry and you'd have rocketing inflation without the illegals padding your workforce (unless the Fed have got it wrong of course).
Any dumbass that says they are taking our jobs from us is full of it. Don't you think anyone would rather have someone who speaks English and will not have him sent to jail for employing an illegal? Check the help wanted section of your newpaper any day of the week and tell me the illegals are taking our jobs. Take a trip to the coast after school starts and tell me there are no help wanted signs. For craps sake, go to New Orleans and check out the help wanted signs there!
JMO, by the way.:-6
I guess you're calling me and several others dumbasses then, 911, because if you think for one minute that illegals are not ALREADY taking our jobs, you better have another think coming. You're mostly correct with the rest but laughably mistaken on that one aspect. Come on down to my town and I'll show ya.
How many of these "illegals" do you think are working within your economy and how many citizens are unemployed and actively seeking work?
The problem you Fed sees is the economy working at near capacity - too few workers for the jobs to be done rather than rampant unemployment. Take out the problems in the construction industry and you'd have rocketing inflation without the illegals padding your workforce (unless the Fed have got it wrong of course).
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double helix
- Posts: 257
- Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:32 pm
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
spot;695755 wrote: No, Wiseguy. Travel across the whole EU for EU citizens is just like travel from one state to another in the US. Some EU countries demand official identity papers of all EU citizens including their own but a driving license is as acceptable as a passport.Yeah, we went from Paris to Germany in a snap......not! We went from Germany to Denmark noo problem......not! Come on, travel across the EU is not without borders. Just like our border with Canada and Mexico you have to get in line, pull out your papers and show the man with the badge and the gun, sometimes a dog or two on the side, that you have an identity and a reason to cross into their country. That is NOT how our state borders function in the USA. No check points, no badges, no guns and best of all, no papers. Just a sign that says thanks for visitin and another straight ahead that says welcome.
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
Bryn Mawr;695973 wrote: How many of these "illegals" do you think are working within your economy and how many citizens are unemployed and actively seeking work?
The problem you Fed sees is the economy working at near capacity - too few workers for the jobs to be done rather than rampant unemployment. Take out the problems in the construction industry and you'd have rocketing inflation without the illegals padding your workforce (unless the Fed have got it wrong of course).
So Bryn, that makes it right? We're back to being admonished to thank the illegals for taking jobs at a cheap wage because citizens want to be paid what their work is worth? We're excusing contractors for going below the belt and hiring cheap unlawful labor at cut rate pay when they should be hiring legal Americans to do these jobs at a fair wage? That doesn't wash for me.
The problem you Fed sees is the economy working at near capacity - too few workers for the jobs to be done rather than rampant unemployment. Take out the problems in the construction industry and you'd have rocketing inflation without the illegals padding your workforce (unless the Fed have got it wrong of course).
So Bryn, that makes it right? We're back to being admonished to thank the illegals for taking jobs at a cheap wage because citizens want to be paid what their work is worth? We're excusing contractors for going below the belt and hiring cheap unlawful labor at cut rate pay when they should be hiring legal Americans to do these jobs at a fair wage? That doesn't wash for me.
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
double helix;695979 wrote: Yeah, we went from Paris to Germany in a snap......not! We went from Germany to Denmark noo problem......not! Come on, travel across the EU is not without borders. Just like our border with Canada and Mexico you have to get in line, pull out your papers and show the man with the badge and the gun, sometimes a dog or two on the side, that you have an identity and a reason to cross into their country. That is NOT how our state borders function in the USA. No check points, no badges, no guns and best of all, no papers. Just a sign that says thanks for visitin and another straight ahead that says welcome.
It must be so many years since you were here. Passport checks simply don't exist any longer on internal borders, nobody stops you, the road is continuous. All you see is a "Welcome to Germany" sign at the side of the road. Either you believe it or you don't, DH, but that's the way it is here now. Ask someone else if you believe I'm lying. How on earth could I say it with so many Europeans on the forum? The last time I flew to the continent I didn't even bother to take my passport with me.
It must be so many years since you were here. Passport checks simply don't exist any longer on internal borders, nobody stops you, the road is continuous. All you see is a "Welcome to Germany" sign at the side of the road. Either you believe it or you don't, DH, but that's the way it is here now. Ask someone else if you believe I'm lying. How on earth could I say it with so many Europeans on the forum? The last time I flew to the continent I didn't even bother to take my passport with me.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
RedGlitter;695985 wrote: So Bryn, that makes it right? We're back to being admonished to thank the illegals for taking jobs at a cheap wage because citizens want to be paid what their work is worth? We're excusing contractors for going below the belt and hiring cheap unlawful labor at cut rate pay when they should be hiring legal Americans to do these jobs at a fair wage? That doesn't wash for me.
No, what is "right" is what the law states to be legal. It was a response to your assertion that the "illegals" were taking jobs away from citizens - if, nationally, there are not enough citizens to fill the jobs then this is not so.
It also explains why the government is not taking a tougher stance on the issue - it cannot afford to or the economy would suffer badly.
No, what is "right" is what the law states to be legal. It was a response to your assertion that the "illegals" were taking jobs away from citizens - if, nationally, there are not enough citizens to fill the jobs then this is not so.
It also explains why the government is not taking a tougher stance on the issue - it cannot afford to or the economy would suffer badly.
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
I am thinking there are plenty pf people who would fill those jobs if they paid the people what they deserved. Saying that it's ok for an illegal to take a job that an American is too proud to take or cannot take because it doesn't provide enough money to pay bills, is wrong. That's just an excuse.The answer goes back to fair wages for all workers. That's the problem that needs fixing.
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
RedGlitter;696196 wrote: I am thinking there are plenty pf people who would fill those jobs if they paid the people what they deserved. Saying that it's ok for an illegal to take a job that an American is too proud to take or cannot take because it doesn't provide enough money to pay bills, is wrong. That's just an excuse.The answer goes back to fair wages for all workers. That's the problem that needs fixing.
As I said previously, according to the Fed there is no slack in the employment pool and the economy is at near capacity. That would mean that it's not a matter of pride or wages but a scarcity of resource - not enough unemployed to fill the jobs that need doing.
As I said previously, according to the Fed there is no slack in the employment pool and the economy is at near capacity. That would mean that it's not a matter of pride or wages but a scarcity of resource - not enough unemployed to fill the jobs that need doing.
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
Bryn Mawr;696184 wrote: It also explains why the government is not taking a tougher stance on the issue - it cannot afford to or the economy would suffer badly.That, it strikes me, is a very reasonable explanation. I'd like to see what alternatives exist that are at all persuasive.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
Bryn Mawr;696184 wrote:
It also explains why the government is not taking a tougher stance on the issue - it cannot afford to or the economy would suffer badly.
This is one angle I had not considered. If this is in fact their reason, why don't they tell us that? Then maybe a reasonable compromise might be struck with less animosity from either side.
At this time, the illegals are benefiting from free medical care and certain welfare benefits that the average legal citizen does not get. Which in turn cost the average citizen more for medical and taxes.
It also explains why the government is not taking a tougher stance on the issue - it cannot afford to or the economy would suffer badly.
This is one angle I had not considered. If this is in fact their reason, why don't they tell us that? Then maybe a reasonable compromise might be struck with less animosity from either side.
At this time, the illegals are benefiting from free medical care and certain welfare benefits that the average legal citizen does not get. Which in turn cost the average citizen more for medical and taxes.
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
YZGI;696226 wrote: At this time, the illegals are benefiting from free medical care and certain welfare benefits that the average legal citizen does not get. Which in turn cost the average citizen more for medical and taxes.
If you'd care to consider my earlier posting at http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... stcount=13 you might have a riposte, I'd be interested to see one. I would find it hard to challenge the credentials or the academic integrity of the authors. The key abstract is "The widespread belief is that illegal aliens cost more in government services than they contribute to the economy. This belief is undeniably false".
If you'd care to consider my earlier posting at http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... stcount=13 you might have a riposte, I'd be interested to see one. I would find it hard to challenge the credentials or the academic integrity of the authors. The key abstract is "The widespread belief is that illegal aliens cost more in government services than they contribute to the economy. This belief is undeniably false".
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
spot;696261 wrote: If you'd care to consider my earlier posting at http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... stcount=13 you might have a riposte, I'd be interested to see one. I would find it hard to challenge the credentials or the academic integrity of the authors. The key abstract is "The widespread belief is that illegal aliens cost more in government services than they contribute to the economy. This belief is undeniably false".
But it is the average American citizen who pays more for health care through our insurance because of the free care the illegals get. They may contribute more to the economy than they take away from, but they get services not offered to a legal citizen, free of cost.
But it is the average American citizen who pays more for health care through our insurance because of the free care the illegals get. They may contribute more to the economy than they take away from, but they get services not offered to a legal citizen, free of cost.
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
YZGI;696276 wrote: But it is the average American citizen who pays more for health care through our insurance because of the free care the illegals get. They may contribute more to the economy than they take away from, but they get services not offered to a legal citizen, free of cost.
There's two things that undocumented aliens can access. One's Emergency Medical Treatment and that's available to every US citizen as well. The other's free elementary and secondary public education which is also available to every US citizen as well. Is there a financial test subsequent to Emergency Medical Treatment which obliges some better-off people to pay after the event? If there is then it applies equally to undocumented alien as well as to citizen.
There's two things that undocumented aliens can access. One's Emergency Medical Treatment and that's available to every US citizen as well. The other's free elementary and secondary public education which is also available to every US citizen as well. Is there a financial test subsequent to Emergency Medical Treatment which obliges some better-off people to pay after the event? If there is then it applies equally to undocumented alien as well as to citizen.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
spot;696283 wrote: There's two things that undocumented aliens can access. One's Emergency Medical Treatment and that's available to every US citizen as well. The other's free elementary and secondary public education which is also available to every US citizen as well. Is there a financial test subsequent to Emergency Medical Treatment which obliges some better-off people to pay after the event? If there is then it applies equally to undocumented alien as well as to citizen.
But if you are a US citizen you incur costs that the medical facility can go after through garnishing of wages because they have either your name or social security number. If you are an illegal they have no means of tracking you because you have no social security number or it is falsified. Also when illegals go to the schools for free it is legal land owners paying higher taxes to fund their education.
But if you are a US citizen you incur costs that the medical facility can go after through garnishing of wages because they have either your name or social security number. If you are an illegal they have no means of tracking you because you have no social security number or it is falsified. Also when illegals go to the schools for free it is legal land owners paying higher taxes to fund their education.
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
YZGI;696292 wrote: But if you are a US citizen you incur costs that the medical facility can go after through garnishing of wages because they have either your name or social security number. If you are an illegal they have no means of tracking you because you have no social security number or it is falsified. Also when illegals go to the schools for free it is legal land owners paying higher taxes to fund their education.I can see that EMTALA still has to be paid for - it's not free provision for anyone. I can also see that hospital billing departments might not chase the low-paid into bankruptcy if it costs more than they'd get back. No patient has to produce identification to be treated under EMTALA, why do you think only undocumented aliens escape payment?
As for the education point, "The widespread belief is that illegal aliens cost more in government services than they contribute to the economy. This belief is undeniably false", remember? You keep falling back on this myth that they don't pay their way.
As for the education point, "The widespread belief is that illegal aliens cost more in government services than they contribute to the economy. This belief is undeniably false", remember? You keep falling back on this myth that they don't pay their way.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
spot;696330 wrote: I can see that EMTALA still has to be paid for - it's not free provision for anyone. I can also see that hospital billing departments might not chase the low-paid into bankruptcy if it costs more than they'd get back. No patient has to produce identification to be treated under EMTALA, why do you think only undocumented aliens escape payment?
As for the education point, "The widespread belief is that illegal aliens cost more in government services than they contribute to the economy. This belief is undeniably false", remember? You keep falling back on this myth that they don't pay their way.
Are you suggesting all US citizens not give any information out when going for emergency medical treatment?
As for the education point, "The widespread belief is that illegal aliens cost more in government services than they contribute to the economy. This belief is undeniably false", remember? You keep falling back on this myth that they don't pay their way.
Are you suggesting all US citizens not give any information out when going for emergency medical treatment?
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
RedGlitter;695891 wrote: [quote=911;695796]
Any dumbass that says they are taking our jobs from us is full of it. Don't you think anyone would rather have someone who speaks English and will not have him sent to jail for employing an illegal? Check the help wanted section of your newpaper any day of the week and tell me the illegals are taking our jobs. Take a trip to the coast after school starts and tell me there are no help wanted signs. For craps sake, go to New Orleans and check out the help wanted signs there!
JMO, by the way[/quote
I guess you're calling me and several others dumbasses then, 911, because if you think for one minute that illegals are not ALREADY taking our jobs, you better have another think coming. You're mostly correct with the rest but laughably mistaken on that one aspect. Come on down to my town and I'll show ya.
First off, let me say, I'm on your side.
Second, if someone is employing illegals, turn them in. There is a law against that. Maybe it's only in my state but I thought it was federally mandated, I may be wrong.
There are jobs out there unless of course they are taking specifically trained jobs, which I doubt they are. For instance, some construction jobs, which most of them seem to be drawn to, I wouldn't think they could get a constuction job with specific skills . I do understand that they are taking jobs but the question is, are people being fired so that illegals can have those jobs?
If so, there's a lawsuit waiting to happen. If not, and our qualified citizens are being turned away for someone who will take a smaller and illegal wage, there, also, is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Perhaps the people in your city need to get together and start a class action lawsuit against the company hiring them and turn this unfair practice into a lesson with benefits.
I know that here and on the coast, most illegals work construction and yard work, very few, if any, specialize in professional jobs as managers or white collar jobs. And no, I am not demeaning any blue collar jobs. I have the utmost respect for construction workers, God bless their souls, working in the heat and cold. I think these people are the hardest working people in the world. I could go on and on about them but I'll stop for now. I know that some people just like construction, it's in their blood and they would rather do that than anything else. So be it, more power to them, they need to fight for the jobs they love! Word of mouth, a letter to the editor, talk radio anything that will turn the town against the employers and give them a wake up call
All I meant to say is that there are jobs out there. Noone is on unemployment because of them or at least, they shouldn't be. The jobs they are taking, require very little skill and our citizens who would rather be doing those jobs could get a job doing something else and probably like it a whole lot more.
Now, having said all that, understand that I am talking as a person who lives in a county of nearly 300,000 people. I would imagine that a small town would have definite problems with illegals especially as close to the border as you seem to be. So, I cannot relate to your problem if you are in a small town. But, I would suggest that if this law I spoke of earlier is not federal but a state law, that you and your fellow citizens confront your state legislators to make it against the law for companies to hire illegals.
I speak better than I write in cases like this, so don't hang me, please! If you have any other comments or questions, feel free to pounce and ask and I will do my best to make myself understood. Didn't mean to get your dander up and certainly was not meaning to call you a dumbass!:-4
Any dumbass that says they are taking our jobs from us is full of it. Don't you think anyone would rather have someone who speaks English and will not have him sent to jail for employing an illegal? Check the help wanted section of your newpaper any day of the week and tell me the illegals are taking our jobs. Take a trip to the coast after school starts and tell me there are no help wanted signs. For craps sake, go to New Orleans and check out the help wanted signs there!
JMO, by the way[/quote
I guess you're calling me and several others dumbasses then, 911, because if you think for one minute that illegals are not ALREADY taking our jobs, you better have another think coming. You're mostly correct with the rest but laughably mistaken on that one aspect. Come on down to my town and I'll show ya.
First off, let me say, I'm on your side.
Second, if someone is employing illegals, turn them in. There is a law against that. Maybe it's only in my state but I thought it was federally mandated, I may be wrong.
There are jobs out there unless of course they are taking specifically trained jobs, which I doubt they are. For instance, some construction jobs, which most of them seem to be drawn to, I wouldn't think they could get a constuction job with specific skills . I do understand that they are taking jobs but the question is, are people being fired so that illegals can have those jobs?
If so, there's a lawsuit waiting to happen. If not, and our qualified citizens are being turned away for someone who will take a smaller and illegal wage, there, also, is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Perhaps the people in your city need to get together and start a class action lawsuit against the company hiring them and turn this unfair practice into a lesson with benefits.
I know that here and on the coast, most illegals work construction and yard work, very few, if any, specialize in professional jobs as managers or white collar jobs. And no, I am not demeaning any blue collar jobs. I have the utmost respect for construction workers, God bless their souls, working in the heat and cold. I think these people are the hardest working people in the world. I could go on and on about them but I'll stop for now.
I know that some people just like construction, it's in their blood and they would rather do that than anything else. So be it, more power to them, they need to fight for the jobs they love! Word of mouth, a letter to the editor, talk radio anything that will turn the town against the employers and give them a wake up callAll I meant to say is that there are jobs out there. Noone is on unemployment because of them or at least, they shouldn't be. The jobs they are taking, require very little skill and our citizens who would rather be doing those jobs could get a job doing something else and probably like it a whole lot more.
Now, having said all that, understand that I am talking as a person who lives in a county of nearly 300,000 people. I would imagine that a small town would have definite problems with illegals especially as close to the border as you seem to be. So, I cannot relate to your problem if you are in a small town. But, I would suggest that if this law I spoke of earlier is not federal but a state law, that you and your fellow citizens confront your state legislators to make it against the law for companies to hire illegals.
I speak better than I write in cases like this, so don't hang me, please!
If you have any other comments or questions, feel free to pounce and ask and I will do my best to make myself understood. Didn't mean to get your dander up and certainly was not meaning to call you a dumbass!:-4When choosing between two evils, I always like to take the one I've never tried before.
Mae West
Mae West
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
YZGI;696340 wrote: Are you suggesting all US citizens not give any information out when going for emergency medical treatment?Some are insured, some are rich, some are incapable of paying, some could be forced into payment and left with nothing. I think the entire US medical system is a complete catastrophe brought on by your lifelong federal commitment to military overspending.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
Thanks 911,
Yeah I saw that yesterday and it hit a nerve and I even felt a little sheepish after replying to you because I knew you are not the type of person to be calling anyone dumbass. Soooo....no problem there anymore and thanks again.
I've never attempted to turn in employers for hiring aliens although I live in casino town and the housekeeping departments are swamped with Mexican people, from what I've been able to sniff out, a good portion are here illegally. The casinos know who they're hiring, they just don't care. They play dumb when they get caught and they do it again.
Many of the housekeeping staff walk out with towels and sheets, they pack their purses with the little soaps and they take food from the EDR that can be easily pocketed, like baked potatoes and breads. The casinos know this too yet their random purse searches seem to only be for gaming employees and white ones at that.
I did call INS once to report a family of 14 aliens and was told by INS "there's no point in deporting them, even more will end up coming back in."
That's the attitude they had, so no wonder nothing's being done about it.
I just can't get over this idea that we should all be happy aliens are coming over here. That we should welcome them with open arms because their lives in Mexico are so hard. The casinos even have Cinco de Mayo parties for them. In fact not that long ago, my mom and her coworkers pitched a witch because the casino was going to observe Cinco de Mayo but was not going to observe or allow anyone else to observe, American Independence Day. The Cinco de Mayo parties were then cancelled. I have no beef with anyone being proud of where they come from. Or celebrating it. But if you're here wrongfully from another country, don't dare wave your flag higher than mine.
My patriotism bone is acting up so I'll be back later.
Yeah I saw that yesterday and it hit a nerve and I even felt a little sheepish after replying to you because I knew you are not the type of person to be calling anyone dumbass. Soooo....no problem there anymore and thanks again.
I've never attempted to turn in employers for hiring aliens although I live in casino town and the housekeeping departments are swamped with Mexican people, from what I've been able to sniff out, a good portion are here illegally. The casinos know who they're hiring, they just don't care. They play dumb when they get caught and they do it again.
Many of the housekeeping staff walk out with towels and sheets, they pack their purses with the little soaps and they take food from the EDR that can be easily pocketed, like baked potatoes and breads. The casinos know this too yet their random purse searches seem to only be for gaming employees and white ones at that.
I did call INS once to report a family of 14 aliens and was told by INS "there's no point in deporting them, even more will end up coming back in."
That's the attitude they had, so no wonder nothing's being done about it.
I just can't get over this idea that we should all be happy aliens are coming over here. That we should welcome them with open arms because their lives in Mexico are so hard. The casinos even have Cinco de Mayo parties for them. In fact not that long ago, my mom and her coworkers pitched a witch because the casino was going to observe Cinco de Mayo but was not going to observe or allow anyone else to observe, American Independence Day. The Cinco de Mayo parties were then cancelled. I have no beef with anyone being proud of where they come from. Or celebrating it. But if you're here wrongfully from another country, don't dare wave your flag higher than mine.
My patriotism bone is acting up so I'll be back later.
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
Something else that I just remembered that is pretty appropo for this discussion....just within this past year, an "unnamed casino/hotel" (we all know it's Ramada Express) laid off a profound number of American workers, then turned around and hired illegal Mexicans to take their jobs. In fact, they didn't just hire them, they went across the border and GOT THEM and brought them over. You can imagine how Americans felt when this stuff hit the papers.
The way I see illegal aliens is no different from how union workers on strike see "scabs" crossing the picket line.
The way I see illegal aliens is no different from how union workers on strike see "scabs" crossing the picket line.
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
spot;696355 wrote: Some are insured, some are rich, some are incapable of paying, some could be forced into payment and left with nothing. I think the entire US medical system is a complete catastrophe brought on by your lifelong federal commitment to military overspending.
I'm not sure if it is the military spending or not, but I am damn sure you are correct that our medical system is now a catastrophe. Now around ten years ago, when insurance was actually affordable I would have argued that point, but now all I can say is something needs to be done.
I'm not sure if it is the military spending or not, but I am damn sure you are correct that our medical system is now a catastrophe. Now around ten years ago, when insurance was actually affordable I would have argued that point, but now all I can say is something needs to be done.
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
RedGlitter;696364 wrote: Something else that I just remembered that is pretty appropo for this discussion....just within this past year, an "unnamed casino/hotel" (we all know it's Ramada Express) laid off a profound number of American workers, then turned around and hired illegal Mexicans to take their jobs. In fact, they didn't just hire them, they went across the border and GOT THEM and brought them over. You can imagine how Americans felt when this stuff hit the papers.That would be a perfect illustration for the thread, if you can find the story online for us.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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ThreeStents
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:53 am
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
There's abook out called "Enrique's Journey" by Sonia Nazario, a LA Times reporter who went south and rode the train with some of these kids who come north to be reunited with their parents in the states. Thousands of children travel to the US in search of their families each year. They are often victimized by robbers, sexual predators, and corrupt immigration officials. She won a Pulitzer Prize for feature writing, and so did Don Barletti, the photographer who took the photos along the way. The human side of this issue is a lot darker than the politicians are willing to admit. It has no simple-minded bumper sticker answer.
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
spot;696448 wrote: That would be a perfect illustration for the thread, if you can find the story online for us.
I'm combing the web, Spot, but it's not looking too promising. I would love to be able to provide the background on this for you guys. Our local paper wouldn't even name the casino which either smacks of kickbacks or worse, fear of retaliation.
ThreeStents;696540 wrote: There's abook out called "Enrique's Journey" by Sonia Nazario, a LA Times reporter who went south and rode the train with some of these kids who come north to be reunited with their parents in the states. Thousands of children travel to the US in search of their families each year. They are often victimized by robbers, sexual predators, and corrupt immigration officials. She won a Pulitzer Prize for feature writing, and so did Don Barletti, the photographer who took the photos along the way. The human side of this issue is a lot darker than the politicians are willing to admit. It has no simple-minded bumper sticker answer.
Then the parents shouldn't leave them behind. The people who do this stuff need to take responsibility for the outcomes, including harm to their children.
I'm combing the web, Spot, but it's not looking too promising. I would love to be able to provide the background on this for you guys. Our local paper wouldn't even name the casino which either smacks of kickbacks or worse, fear of retaliation.
ThreeStents;696540 wrote: There's abook out called "Enrique's Journey" by Sonia Nazario, a LA Times reporter who went south and rode the train with some of these kids who come north to be reunited with their parents in the states. Thousands of children travel to the US in search of their families each year. They are often victimized by robbers, sexual predators, and corrupt immigration officials. She won a Pulitzer Prize for feature writing, and so did Don Barletti, the photographer who took the photos along the way. The human side of this issue is a lot darker than the politicians are willing to admit. It has no simple-minded bumper sticker answer.
Then the parents shouldn't leave them behind. The people who do this stuff need to take responsibility for the outcomes, including harm to their children.
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
I want to throw this in. I think it fits in this thread. There are those Mexicans (aka "brown berets") who see California and the American Southwest (where I live) as theirs because they think we "stole" it from them. They call it a reconquista and they want back their land. In this respect they view illegals as heroes for coming over here and "taking what's rightfully theirs."
Here's some plain English historical background on who took whose land:
http://www.barnesreview.org/The__Reconq ... s_dre.html
Here's a radio show's website further showing how they feel about us:
http://www.criminalgovernment.com/docs/rel/atzlan.html
The last link is from 2001 but is still relevant as it continues.
Anyone have any comments on this part?
Here's some plain English historical background on who took whose land:
http://www.barnesreview.org/The__Reconq ... s_dre.html
Here's a radio show's website further showing how they feel about us:
http://www.criminalgovernment.com/docs/rel/atzlan.html
The last link is from 2001 but is still relevant as it continues.
Anyone have any comments on this part?
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double helix
- Posts: 257
- Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:32 pm
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
When I was living in Yakima, Washington in the eighties, I met some illegal Mexicans with this group.
History tells the story here. WE took Texas, New Mexico and portions of Florida and California, if not all of the last two.
Yes we took those pieces of land from them. We also too our East coast and most of the northeast, northwest and central states from the Canadian English and French. I don't hear those last two countries whining.
We took those territories as the spoils of war. The War with Mexico 1846-1848 should shed some light on the subject. http://www.pbs.org/kera/usmexicanwar/index_flash.html
History tells the story here. WE took Texas, New Mexico and portions of Florida and California, if not all of the last two.
Yes we took those pieces of land from them. We also too our East coast and most of the northeast, northwest and central states from the Canadian English and French. I don't hear those last two countries whining.
We took those territories as the spoils of war. The War with Mexico 1846-1848 should shed some light on the subject. http://www.pbs.org/kera/usmexicanwar/index_flash.html
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
RedGlitter;696359 wrote: Thanks 911,
Many of the housekeeping staff walk out with towels and sheets, they pack their purses with the little soaps and they take food from the EDR that can be easily pocketed, like baked potatoes and breads. The casinos know this too yet their random purse searches seem to only be for gaming employees and white ones at that.
I did call INS once to report a family of 14 aliens and was told by INS "there's no point in deporting them, even more will end up coming back in."
That's the attitude they had, so no wonder nothing's being done about it.
I just can't get over this idea that we should all be happy aliens are coming over here. That we should welcome them with open arms because their lives in Mexico are so hard. The casinos even have Cinco de Mayo parties for them. In fact not that long ago, my mom and her coworkers pitched a witch because the casino was going to observe Cinco de Mayo but was not going to observe or allow anyone else to observe, American Independence Day. The Cinco de Mayo parties were then cancelled. I have no beef with anyone being proud of where they come from. Or celebrating it. But if you're here wrongfully from another country, don't dare wave your flag higher than mine.
My patriotism bone is acting up so I'll be back later.
Some part of me agrees with what you wrote here, RedGlitter. My problem as I thought about what you said has to do with mainly that we are dealing with adults, ADULTS, with the faculties of intelligence, reason, compassion, integrity everything intact yet these adults choose to steal or resent me. Is it because I'm white and living in one of the most densely populated spanish speaking regions of the country, culturally spanish as well? Does this mean I must make consessions, walk on eggshells, be afraid to offend someone who may or may not be an American. Is this the definition of being culturall sensitive? You know it has something to do with trust I think. I can't believe I would ever think most who I interact with could or would choose to steal or feel justified in some of the attitudes that must instigate some of those things you mentioned above. Maybe poverty and lack of education brings out the very worst in people. I don't know, I could be living in redneck cracker country and feel just as frustrated. This is a tricky topic.
Peace on Earth everbody!
Erin
Many of the housekeeping staff walk out with towels and sheets, they pack their purses with the little soaps and they take food from the EDR that can be easily pocketed, like baked potatoes and breads. The casinos know this too yet their random purse searches seem to only be for gaming employees and white ones at that.
I did call INS once to report a family of 14 aliens and was told by INS "there's no point in deporting them, even more will end up coming back in."
That's the attitude they had, so no wonder nothing's being done about it.
I just can't get over this idea that we should all be happy aliens are coming over here. That we should welcome them with open arms because their lives in Mexico are so hard. The casinos even have Cinco de Mayo parties for them. In fact not that long ago, my mom and her coworkers pitched a witch because the casino was going to observe Cinco de Mayo but was not going to observe or allow anyone else to observe, American Independence Day. The Cinco de Mayo parties were then cancelled. I have no beef with anyone being proud of where they come from. Or celebrating it. But if you're here wrongfully from another country, don't dare wave your flag higher than mine.
My patriotism bone is acting up so I'll be back later.
Some part of me agrees with what you wrote here, RedGlitter. My problem as I thought about what you said has to do with mainly that we are dealing with adults, ADULTS, with the faculties of intelligence, reason, compassion, integrity everything intact yet these adults choose to steal or resent me. Is it because I'm white and living in one of the most densely populated spanish speaking regions of the country, culturally spanish as well? Does this mean I must make consessions, walk on eggshells, be afraid to offend someone who may or may not be an American. Is this the definition of being culturall sensitive? You know it has something to do with trust I think. I can't believe I would ever think most who I interact with could or would choose to steal or feel justified in some of the attitudes that must instigate some of those things you mentioned above. Maybe poverty and lack of education brings out the very worst in people. I don't know, I could be living in redneck cracker country and feel just as frustrated. This is a tricky topic.
Peace on Earth everbody!
Erin
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
double helix;697138 wrote: We also too our East coast and most of the northeast, northwest and central states from the Canadian English and French. I don't hear those last two countries whining. DH, this may be slightly off topic but - you do realize that the British Crown still owns more square miles of North America than the USA does, don't you? You make it sound like you won, that's all.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
i havent read this whole thread but enough to make this remark..dont judge the whole lot by a few..many mexicans come to usa to find work to survive and better their lives...and anytime a life is lost it is a tragedy...no matter how you look at it...:-6
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
guppy;697178 wrote: i havent read this whole thread but enough to make this remark..dont judge the whole lot by a few..many mexicans come to usa to find work to survive and better their lives...and anytime a life is lost it is a tragedy...no matter how you look at it...:-6
I disagree with the tragedy part.
As for coming here to "better their lives"/take from us, they can do it the legal and proper way and then there will be less complaining.. If they're incapable of doing that, they have no business whatsoever coming here.
I disagree with the tragedy part.
As for coming here to "better their lives"/take from us, they can do it the legal and proper way and then there will be less complaining.. If they're incapable of doing that, they have no business whatsoever coming here.
Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people?
spot;697174 wrote: DH, this may be slightly off topic but - you do realize that the British Crown still owns more square miles of North America than the USA does, don't you? You make it sound like you won, that's all.
yeah, but we got the best parts! :p :wah:
yeah, but we got the best parts! :p
:wah: