'Our Race is Our Nation'
'Our Race is Our Nation'
RedGlitter;665778 wrote: I can't agree that 100 million dead of one people is worse than a lesser dead amount of another.Then turn what you've said about. The entire point of the death-camp holocaust memorialising is exactly that the lesser number of deaths there are more to be mourned and condemned than the larger number of other dead in World War 2. I doubt whether you could write the mirror-image of what you just posted: "I can't agree that 6 million dead Jews is worse than a greater dead amount of another." If you can post it one way but not the other then I think you've already made a "quantity v. quality debate" decision of your own.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
'Our Race is Our Nation'
Irmin;666206 wrote:
Why is race of utmost importance? The answer lies in the title of the post. Without the founding race, the civilisation will collapse, as will its culture. Why else do you think the Jews are promotign miscegenation in the West?
And why do you think civilization would collapse? As it stands, civilization includes many ethnicities and is not held intact by whites. I need something more to go on.
Not true. It was just an aesthetic preference.
Isn't that what I said?
Ask yourself why it is a crime in some countries to quetsion the holocaust. Why do they wish to silence debate and free speech on teh mater? Their own actions gives them away. Why do we not speak of the Russian holocaust where millions of white gentiles parished as a result of Jew imposed communism? I guess it only counts when it concerns gods chosen.
Who says we don't speak of these things? Where are you living that you don't hear of them? Granted, probably many more people are aware of the actual Holocaust than they are about a Russian one, but that could be explained by pop culture.
Why is race of utmost importance? The answer lies in the title of the post. Without the founding race, the civilisation will collapse, as will its culture. Why else do you think the Jews are promotign miscegenation in the West?
And why do you think civilization would collapse? As it stands, civilization includes many ethnicities and is not held intact by whites. I need something more to go on.
Not true. It was just an aesthetic preference.
Isn't that what I said?
Ask yourself why it is a crime in some countries to quetsion the holocaust. Why do they wish to silence debate and free speech on teh mater? Their own actions gives them away. Why do we not speak of the Russian holocaust where millions of white gentiles parished as a result of Jew imposed communism? I guess it only counts when it concerns gods chosen.
Who says we don't speak of these things? Where are you living that you don't hear of them? Granted, probably many more people are aware of the actual Holocaust than they are about a Russian one, but that could be explained by pop culture.
'Our Race is Our Nation'
RedGlitter;666278 wrote: Who says we don't speak of these things? Where are you living that you don't hear of them? Granted, probably many more people are aware of the actual Holocaust than they are about a Russian one, but that could be explained by pop culture.
I've talked with people innocent of the least hint of historical awareness but they all know the words "World War Two" and "millions of Russian deaths".
I was coincidentally reading Paul Kennedy's "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers" last night and came to the following sentence:Russia's population losses were appalling. 7.5 million in the armed forces; 6-8 million civilians killed by the Germans; plus the "indirect" war losses caused by reduced food rations. forced labor, and vastly increased hours of work, so that "altogether probably some 20-25 million Soviet citizens died premature deaths between 1941-1945".His footnote says the final quote is from G Hosking, ""A History of the Soviet Union", 1985.
I'd rather apply the word "holocaust" uniquely to the death camps, if I might be allowed a preference, if only for clarity and to avoid confusion.
You were, I think, if I understood you correctly, trying to tell me that the slaughter of the 6 million holocaust victims was no worse than the deaths of all those Russians.
I've talked with people innocent of the least hint of historical awareness but they all know the words "World War Two" and "millions of Russian deaths".
I was coincidentally reading Paul Kennedy's "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers" last night and came to the following sentence:Russia's population losses were appalling. 7.5 million in the armed forces; 6-8 million civilians killed by the Germans; plus the "indirect" war losses caused by reduced food rations. forced labor, and vastly increased hours of work, so that "altogether probably some 20-25 million Soviet citizens died premature deaths between 1941-1945".His footnote says the final quote is from G Hosking, ""A History of the Soviet Union", 1985.
I'd rather apply the word "holocaust" uniquely to the death camps, if I might be allowed a preference, if only for clarity and to avoid confusion.
You were, I think, if I understood you correctly, trying to tell me that the slaughter of the 6 million holocaust victims was no worse than the deaths of all those Russians.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
'Our Race is Our Nation'
Irmin;666206 wrote: Ask yourself why it is a crime in some countries to quetsion the holocaust. Why do they wish to silence debate and free speech on teh mater? Their own actions gives them away.It was a short-term and foolish decision on someone's part. Prohibition invariably generates a counter-pressure. It's a different matter to banning hate-speech, the former being a factual discussion of evidence and the latter being behaviour likely to disturb Her Majesty's peace.
As far as the Holocaust itself is concerned I have a point to make, though it might lead to an outraged response. The one unforgivable aspect above all others is that once the decision to set the death camps in motion had been taken there was, somewhere central to the design process and from the top down, a policy of making the process as free from pain and fear as possible. People have tried to explain the deception part of the camps, the flowerbeds at the railhead, the "showers" euphemism, the speed of separation and murder once the trains had arrived, as one of expedient efficiency, but I don't think that covers the full range of deception at all though I agree it could.
I think the camp designers built their civilized concern regarding human suffering into those camps, making them less of a hell than they might otherwise have been, and that's what's so unique and unforgiveable about them. It's why they have to be spoken of piously as the worst places ever constructed, to negate any aspect which might suggest the builders had the least concern for the people being processed through them. The worst aspect of the Holocaust is that it was committed by civilized people implementing their civilized values in the barbarous setting of their orders.
As far as the Holocaust itself is concerned I have a point to make, though it might lead to an outraged response. The one unforgivable aspect above all others is that once the decision to set the death camps in motion had been taken there was, somewhere central to the design process and from the top down, a policy of making the process as free from pain and fear as possible. People have tried to explain the deception part of the camps, the flowerbeds at the railhead, the "showers" euphemism, the speed of separation and murder once the trains had arrived, as one of expedient efficiency, but I don't think that covers the full range of deception at all though I agree it could.
I think the camp designers built their civilized concern regarding human suffering into those camps, making them less of a hell than they might otherwise have been, and that's what's so unique and unforgiveable about them. It's why they have to be spoken of piously as the worst places ever constructed, to negate any aspect which might suggest the builders had the least concern for the people being processed through them. The worst aspect of the Holocaust is that it was committed by civilized people implementing their civilized values in the barbarous setting of their orders.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
'Our Race is Our Nation'
spot;667542 wrote: [...]
The one unforgivable aspect above all others is that once the decision to set the death camps in motion had been taken there was, somewhere central to the design process and from the top down, a policy of making the process as free from pain and fear as possible. People have tried to explain the deception part of the camps, the flowerbeds at the railhead, the "showers" euphemism, the speed of separation and murder once the trains had arrived, as one of expedient efficiency, but I don't think that covers the full range of deception at all though I agree it could.
I think the camp designers built their civilized concern regarding human suffering into those camps, making them less of a hell than they might otherwise have been, and that's what's so unique and unforgiveable about them. It's why they have to be spoken of piously as the worst places ever constructed, to negate any aspect which might suggest the builders had the least concern for the people being processed through them. The worst aspect of the Holocaust is that it was committed by civilized people implementing their civilized values in the barbarous setting of their orders.
So the euphamisms & all were not for the Jews, but for the Germans, to help deflect the reality of their actions - am I correct?
The one unforgivable aspect above all others is that once the decision to set the death camps in motion had been taken there was, somewhere central to the design process and from the top down, a policy of making the process as free from pain and fear as possible. People have tried to explain the deception part of the camps, the flowerbeds at the railhead, the "showers" euphemism, the speed of separation and murder once the trains had arrived, as one of expedient efficiency, but I don't think that covers the full range of deception at all though I agree it could.
I think the camp designers built their civilized concern regarding human suffering into those camps, making them less of a hell than they might otherwise have been, and that's what's so unique and unforgiveable about them. It's why they have to be spoken of piously as the worst places ever constructed, to negate any aspect which might suggest the builders had the least concern for the people being processed through them. The worst aspect of the Holocaust is that it was committed by civilized people implementing their civilized values in the barbarous setting of their orders.
So the euphamisms & all were not for the Jews, but for the Germans, to help deflect the reality of their actions - am I correct?
'Our Race is Our Nation'
Accountable;667610 wrote: So the euphamisms & all were not for the Jews, but for the Germans, to help deflect the reality of their actions - am I correct?
The camps were hidden from the population at large, but that's not what you're asking.
Did it make matters easier on the conscience of the guards? No, how could it have - they knew the truth behind the euphemisms from their first day.
I suggested that some of the camp designers intended that the euphemistic setting should allay the fears of people arriving and produce the least possible distress until they were dead. Either that can be interpreted as humanism or as cynical convenience for the guards. I'd prefer to find documentary evidence of the reason rather than speculate.
The camps were hidden from the population at large, but that's not what you're asking.
Did it make matters easier on the conscience of the guards? No, how could it have - they knew the truth behind the euphemisms from their first day.
I suggested that some of the camp designers intended that the euphemistic setting should allay the fears of people arriving and produce the least possible distress until they were dead. Either that can be interpreted as humanism or as cynical convenience for the guards. I'd prefer to find documentary evidence of the reason rather than speculate.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
'Our Race is Our Nation'
spot;667613 wrote: The camps were hidden from the population at large, but that's not what you're asking.
Did it make matters easier on the conscience of the guards? No, how could it have - they knew the truth behind the euphemisms from their first day.
I suggested that some of the camp designers intended that the euphemistic setting should allay the fears of people arriving and produce the least possible distress until they were dead. Either that can be interpreted as humanism or as cynical convenience for the guards. I'd prefer to find documentary evidence of the reason rather than speculate.
They were known for documenting everything, weren't they? Too evil for me to fathom.
Did it make matters easier on the conscience of the guards? No, how could it have - they knew the truth behind the euphemisms from their first day.
I suggested that some of the camp designers intended that the euphemistic setting should allay the fears of people arriving and produce the least possible distress until they were dead. Either that can be interpreted as humanism or as cynical convenience for the guards. I'd prefer to find documentary evidence of the reason rather than speculate.
They were known for documenting everything, weren't they? Too evil for me to fathom.
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
'Our Race is Our Nation'
spot;666276 wrote: Then turn what you've said about. The entire point of the death-camp holocaust memorialising is exactly that the lesser number of deaths there are more to be mourned and condemned than the larger number of other dead in World War 2. I doubt whether you could write the mirror-image of what you just posted: "I can't agree that 6 million dead Jews is worse than a greater dead amount of another." If you can post it one way but not the other then I think you've already made a "quantity v. quality debate" decision of your own.
Sorry I just now got to these. What I'm meaning to say is that I think all the deaths are terrible. That one religion or one ethnicity isn't better than the next. What I get from Irmin is that the Aryan deaths are worse because they're the one true race or the best race. That's what his implications mean to me. Am I wrong in my understanding of what he's saying? If that is what he's getting at , I disagree completely.
And as for the numbers, I do understand that we are rightly appalled more by say a school bus full of children that blows up killing all, than we are by a house fire that takes one child. That one child's life in my opinion is no less important than all the kids on the bus combined. How can we put an actual value on a person's life? That's what I was trying to say. I probably have only muddied the waters now though.
spot;667537 wrote: His footnote says the final quote is from G Hosking, ""A History of the Soviet Union", 1985.
I'd rather apply the word "holocaust" uniquely to the death camps, if I might be allowed a preference, if only for clarity and to avoid confusion.
You were, I think, if I understood you correctly, trying to tell me that the slaughter of the 6 million holocaust victims was no worse than the deaths of all those Russians.
No, I wasn't trying to say that at all. In fact, the contrary. This may not come out right or it may just sound bad but if you were to ask me, I would say the 6 million Jews got a far worse deal than the Russians, only because of the sheer calculated heinousness of their mode of death. Ovens and vivisection and gas, etc just boggles my mind. It seems that shoving one into a kiln is worse (to me) than say a simple bullet to the head. So when I compare the Holocaust with other tragic events, I'm not comparing who's more important or worth more; I'm just thinking more of the way they died.
Sorry I just now got to these. What I'm meaning to say is that I think all the deaths are terrible. That one religion or one ethnicity isn't better than the next. What I get from Irmin is that the Aryan deaths are worse because they're the one true race or the best race. That's what his implications mean to me. Am I wrong in my understanding of what he's saying? If that is what he's getting at , I disagree completely.
And as for the numbers, I do understand that we are rightly appalled more by say a school bus full of children that blows up killing all, than we are by a house fire that takes one child. That one child's life in my opinion is no less important than all the kids on the bus combined. How can we put an actual value on a person's life? That's what I was trying to say. I probably have only muddied the waters now though.
spot;667537 wrote: His footnote says the final quote is from G Hosking, ""A History of the Soviet Union", 1985.
I'd rather apply the word "holocaust" uniquely to the death camps, if I might be allowed a preference, if only for clarity and to avoid confusion.
You were, I think, if I understood you correctly, trying to tell me that the slaughter of the 6 million holocaust victims was no worse than the deaths of all those Russians.
No, I wasn't trying to say that at all. In fact, the contrary. This may not come out right or it may just sound bad but if you were to ask me, I would say the 6 million Jews got a far worse deal than the Russians, only because of the sheer calculated heinousness of their mode of death. Ovens and vivisection and gas, etc just boggles my mind. It seems that shoving one into a kiln is worse (to me) than say a simple bullet to the head. So when I compare the Holocaust with other tragic events, I'm not comparing who's more important or worth more; I'm just thinking more of the way they died.
'Our Race is Our Nation'
Accountable;667614 wrote: They were known for documenting everything, weren't they? Too evil for me to fathom.
That's the twist, isn't it. We can look back into history and find other examples of mass slaughter where the comfort and distress of the dying weren't considered at all and yes, it's what countries did to each other's populations, it's not right but it happened - the odd million Armenians, for example. Nobody loathes İsmail Enver and his administration for all time as a result. But the one instance where care was taken to reduce the personal suffering of those about to die is the one singled out as uniquely evil, too evil to be fathomed. I do think those two aspects are intertwined. The more civilized your genocide, the more evil it is.
That's the twist, isn't it. We can look back into history and find other examples of mass slaughter where the comfort and distress of the dying weren't considered at all and yes, it's what countries did to each other's populations, it's not right but it happened - the odd million Armenians, for example. Nobody loathes İsmail Enver and his administration for all time as a result. But the one instance where care was taken to reduce the personal suffering of those about to die is the one singled out as uniquely evil, too evil to be fathomed. I do think those two aspects are intertwined. The more civilized your genocide, the more evil it is.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
'Our Race is Our Nation'
RedGlitter;667616 wrote: I'm not comparing who's more important or worth more; I'm just thinking more of the way they died.
What happened to "It's impossible to put a value on a life as I see it"? You do this all the time, you did it with being so much more bothered about twelve honour killing murders a year in the UK than with 5,000 deaths under the back wheels of cars in the US. "I'm just thinking more of the way they died" is a convenient way of refusing to look at the horror of the number, whether it's children under car wheels or Russians facing tanks and starvation.
As for "It seems that shoving one into a kiln is worse (to me) than say a simple bullet to the head", what has that to do either with the Holocaust or with the Russian deaths? What went into the kilns, dead bodies or live victims? And the proportion of anyone killed on the Eastern Front by "a simple bullet to the head" was insignificantly low. Every one of the deaths we're discussing is an individual whose life was stopped. How can you refuse to value each?
What happened to "It's impossible to put a value on a life as I see it"? You do this all the time, you did it with being so much more bothered about twelve honour killing murders a year in the UK than with 5,000 deaths under the back wheels of cars in the US. "I'm just thinking more of the way they died" is a convenient way of refusing to look at the horror of the number, whether it's children under car wheels or Russians facing tanks and starvation.
As for "It seems that shoving one into a kiln is worse (to me) than say a simple bullet to the head", what has that to do either with the Holocaust or with the Russian deaths? What went into the kilns, dead bodies or live victims? And the proportion of anyone killed on the Eastern Front by "a simple bullet to the head" was insignificantly low. Every one of the deaths we're discussing is an individual whose life was stopped. How can you refuse to value each?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
'Our Race is Our Nation'
posted by Irmin
Ask yourself why it is a crime in some countries to quetsion the holocaust. Why do they wish to silence debate and free speech on teh mater? Their own actions gives them away. Why do we not speak of the Russian holocaust where millions of white gentiles parished as a result of Jew imposed communism? I guess it only counts when it concerns gods chosen.
Generally speaking it is those countries that carried out the holocaust that make it a crime to deny that it happened. Right wing nazism didn't get destroyed it just took a hell of a beating and stopping them pretending it didn't happen is an alternative to beating the crap out of them. It's a bit like those that try and deny the British didn't have an empire and all was done for the best possible motives genocide, concentration camps institutionalised racism nothing to do with the british empire only unpatriotic swine would pretend otherwise. It happened: all nations have committed atrocities and mankind has been slaughtering each other since the day they first walked the earth. What was different about WW1 & 2 was the industrial efficiency of the killing. Now warmongers have to try and persuade all of us to get involved and most don't want to go to war.
Happily I'm a celt. A member of one of the many European tribes that banded together to beat the crap out of the lunatics that fell for all this nonsense about the master race. A casual walk through any European city should help you realise just how diverse our peoples are. There is no founding race The Aryans got lost on the way to Europe and ended up in India instead-mother tongue sanskrit my arse. The myth of the master race is just a way of coping with a massive inferiority complex. Only those who see themselves as not doing as well as they should start convincing themselves they are entitled to what others have.
Ask yourself why it is a crime in some countries to quetsion the holocaust. Why do they wish to silence debate and free speech on teh mater? Their own actions gives them away. Why do we not speak of the Russian holocaust where millions of white gentiles parished as a result of Jew imposed communism? I guess it only counts when it concerns gods chosen.
Generally speaking it is those countries that carried out the holocaust that make it a crime to deny that it happened. Right wing nazism didn't get destroyed it just took a hell of a beating and stopping them pretending it didn't happen is an alternative to beating the crap out of them. It's a bit like those that try and deny the British didn't have an empire and all was done for the best possible motives genocide, concentration camps institutionalised racism nothing to do with the british empire only unpatriotic swine would pretend otherwise. It happened: all nations have committed atrocities and mankind has been slaughtering each other since the day they first walked the earth. What was different about WW1 & 2 was the industrial efficiency of the killing. Now warmongers have to try and persuade all of us to get involved and most don't want to go to war.
Happily I'm a celt. A member of one of the many European tribes that banded together to beat the crap out of the lunatics that fell for all this nonsense about the master race. A casual walk through any European city should help you realise just how diverse our peoples are. There is no founding race The Aryans got lost on the way to Europe and ended up in India instead-mother tongue sanskrit my arse. The myth of the master race is just a way of coping with a massive inferiority complex. Only those who see themselves as not doing as well as they should start convincing themselves they are entitled to what others have.
'Our Race is Our Nation'
You know nothing of our people's history. Aryans in India were as white as you and I. 5000 Years ago all the Aryan males were killed in the great war. Well all the warriors, those who were left tried to keep the Vedas safe, other ran like hell, as Abraham, one of the Brahman priests, did. The animals from Africa attacked India from the south, and only the mountains kept the animals form killing all of our people.
'Our Race is Our Nation'
good grief 
'Our Race is Our Nation'
And you thought the Scientologists won the prize, Jimbo! Make way L Ron Hubbard, you're a plank of sanity by comparison.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Richard Bell
- Posts: 1228
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 8:56 am
'Our Race is Our Nation'
Irmin;668056 wrote: http://www.h-r----c-l.com/h--h---x/index.html
Oy gevalt ! You're still here ???
Don't you have a cross to burn somewhere ???
( I altered your link so as not to give your dopey beliefs any further publicity.)
Oy gevalt ! You're still here ???
Don't you have a cross to burn somewhere ???
( I altered your link so as not to give your dopey beliefs any further publicity.)
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
'Our Race is Our Nation'
spot;667627 wrote: What happened to "It's impossible to put a value on a life as I see it"? You do this all the time, you did it with being so much more bothered about twelve honour killing murders a year in the UK than with 5,000 deaths under the back wheels of cars in the US. "I'm just thinking more of the way they died" is a convenient way of refusing to look at the horror of the number, whether it's children under car wheels or Russians facing tanks and starvation.
As for "It seems that shoving one into a kiln is worse (to me) than say a simple bullet to the head", what has that to do either with the Holocaust or with the Russian deaths? What went into the kilns, dead bodies or live victims? And the proportion of anyone killed on the Eastern Front by "a simple bullet to the head" was insignificantly low. Every one of the deaths we're discussing is an individual whose life was stopped. How can you refuse to value each?
Spot, this is only my personal take on it. My opinion. Rather, my feeling on it. The reason ovens seem worse to me than shooting someone is only because of the methodic way it was carried out. That could be said for the entire Holocaust experience -if you're asking me- because it chills me how humans built these death camps that in essence were nothing more than factories for disposing of innocent human beings. Taking them out and shooting them seems less "involved" than actually planning a facility to dispose of them. I am NOT saying it WAS worse, only that in my way of thinking it SEEMS worse. It's just my opinion, not a natural fact.
And first, I don't know that all those bodies in kilns were dead. Considering the other atrocities committed against them,I think it's reasonable to consider the possibility of some of them being alive. But alive or dead, it goes back to the methodology of it, for me. That's all I'm trying to say. I don't devalue or value less the lives of the dead Russians or think their death was less horrific.
About the honor killings v. run-over kids, as stupid as I think one would have to be to back up over their child, those are terrible accidents. Honor killings are not. Again, I'm not saying those kids mean any less than women who are killed in these honor killings. But I'm not going to say the deaths of all those kids is worse than honor killing victims just because there are more.
As for "It seems that shoving one into a kiln is worse (to me) than say a simple bullet to the head", what has that to do either with the Holocaust or with the Russian deaths? What went into the kilns, dead bodies or live victims? And the proportion of anyone killed on the Eastern Front by "a simple bullet to the head" was insignificantly low. Every one of the deaths we're discussing is an individual whose life was stopped. How can you refuse to value each?
Spot, this is only my personal take on it. My opinion. Rather, my feeling on it. The reason ovens seem worse to me than shooting someone is only because of the methodic way it was carried out. That could be said for the entire Holocaust experience -if you're asking me- because it chills me how humans built these death camps that in essence were nothing more than factories for disposing of innocent human beings. Taking them out and shooting them seems less "involved" than actually planning a facility to dispose of them. I am NOT saying it WAS worse, only that in my way of thinking it SEEMS worse. It's just my opinion, not a natural fact.
And first, I don't know that all those bodies in kilns were dead. Considering the other atrocities committed against them,I think it's reasonable to consider the possibility of some of them being alive. But alive or dead, it goes back to the methodology of it, for me. That's all I'm trying to say. I don't devalue or value less the lives of the dead Russians or think their death was less horrific.
About the honor killings v. run-over kids, as stupid as I think one would have to be to back up over their child, those are terrible accidents. Honor killings are not. Again, I'm not saying those kids mean any less than women who are killed in these honor killings. But I'm not going to say the deaths of all those kids is worse than honor killing victims just because there are more.
'Our Race is Our Nation'
RedGlitter;668308 wrote: But I'm not going to say the deaths of all those kids is worse than honor killing victims just because there are more.It's a very serious question, and one that's produced messed up answers in the UK before now. The UK government was faced with a freak railway accident ten years ago and put a billion pounds into preventing its recurrence, saving maybe ten or twenty lives over the next forty years. A life a year. The same money put into specific road safety measures, which weren't done because the money had been used on the rail system instead, might have saved a hundred lives a year indefinitely. That's thousands of people dying prematurely and horribly because of a bad decision based on your argument about value.
If I could halve the car-reversal death rate or the honour killing death rate in England for the same fixed cost, I'd go for the car deaths every time.
If I could halve the car-reversal death rate or the honour killing death rate in England for the same fixed cost, I'd go for the car deaths every time.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
'Our Race is Our Nation'
spot;668312 wrote: It's a very serious question, and one that's produced messed up answers in the UK before now. The UK government was faced with a freak railway accident ten years ago and put a billion pounds into preventing its recurrence, saving maybe ten or twenty lives over the next forty years. A life a year. The same money put into specific road safety measures, which weren't done because the money had been used on the rail system instead, might have saved a hundred lives a year indefinitely. That's thousands of people dying prematurely and horribly because of a bad decision based on your argument about value.
If I could halve the car-reversal death rate or the honour killing death rate in England for the same fixed cost, I'd go for the car deaths every time.
Ok, that's fair, Spot. I can see where you're coming from. I am not sure we're not just on opposite sides of the same coin though because we're both saying that a life is valuable when it now seems to me what we ought to be saying is that it's invaluable. You're saying the more deaths there are, the more horrific the loss because we cannot put a price on life. And I am saying that I can't say 5000 deaths are worse than 12 because if I did that, (to me) that would lessen the magnitude of the deaths of 12 human beings. I think you and I are both talking about the sheer magnitude, we just see it in different ways. Am I close??
If I could halve the car-reversal death rate or the honour killing death rate in England for the same fixed cost, I'd go for the car deaths every time.
Ok, that's fair, Spot. I can see where you're coming from. I am not sure we're not just on opposite sides of the same coin though because we're both saying that a life is valuable when it now seems to me what we ought to be saying is that it's invaluable. You're saying the more deaths there are, the more horrific the loss because we cannot put a price on life. And I am saying that I can't say 5000 deaths are worse than 12 because if I did that, (to me) that would lessen the magnitude of the deaths of 12 human beings. I think you and I are both talking about the sheer magnitude, we just see it in different ways. Am I close??
'Our Race is Our Nation'
Invaluable is the cop-out word. Invaluable is the word you get in Baghdad when some clown in uniform hands over $4000 compensation for killing an uninvolved bystander with "we know that no amount of money would possibly repair your loss". That's the sense of invaluable which leads to unaccountable. I'd use valuable every time. Valuable trumps "we didn't mean to" or "these things just happen". "These things just happen" is why those car reversal deaths aren't being stopped.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
'Our Race is Our Nation'
Spot, what would you do to stop the car deaths?? I men stupidity/negligence must be factors so how would we go about preventing that besides a backup alarm on the car to alert the driver to a child?
'Our Race is Our Nation'
RedGlitter;668358 wrote: Spot, what would you do to stop the car deaths?? I men stupidity/negligence must be factors so how would we go about preventing that besides a backup alarm on the car to alert the driver to a child?
That sounds like a reasonable step to take, it's cheap and effective. It's been tested on trucks. A mandatory voice / flash / beep is what refuse collection and shop delivery trucks have in England, for example. When they select reverse all of it goes off and the voice shouts "Beware! Reversing! Get out of the way!" or something similar to that. I'd guess, without looking, that it reduced reversing deaths from that class of vehicle by 90%. Extending it to all motor traffic would do the same there as well. What would it cost? Less than the price of airbags, that's for sure, and it would save more lives than they do. They're mandatory, aren't they?
So what's wrong with the solution you just suggested?
That sounds like a reasonable step to take, it's cheap and effective. It's been tested on trucks. A mandatory voice / flash / beep is what refuse collection and shop delivery trucks have in England, for example. When they select reverse all of it goes off and the voice shouts "Beware! Reversing! Get out of the way!" or something similar to that. I'd guess, without looking, that it reduced reversing deaths from that class of vehicle by 90%. Extending it to all motor traffic would do the same there as well. What would it cost? Less than the price of airbags, that's for sure, and it would save more lives than they do. They're mandatory, aren't they?
So what's wrong with the solution you just suggested?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
'Our Race is Our Nation'
Newer luxury cars are offering self-parallel parking, automatic accident aversion (the car actually swerves on its own to avoid an accident), and proximity alarms to warn the driver that he's getting too close.
It's only a matter of time before all cars have these.
It's only a matter of time before all cars have these.
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
'Our Race is Our Nation'
spot;668371 wrote: That sounds like a reasonable step to take, it's cheap and effective. It's been tested on trucks. A mandatory voice / flash / beep is what refuse collection and shop delivery trucks have in England, for example. When they select reverse all of it goes off and the voice shouts "Beware! Reversing! Get out of the way!" or something similar to that. I'd guess, without looking, that it reduced reversing deaths from that class of vehicle by 90%. Extending it to all motor traffic would do the same there as well. What would it cost? Less than the price of airbags, that's for sure, and it would save more lives than they do. They're mandatory, aren't they?
So what's wrong with the solution you just suggested?
I don't know if airbags are mandatory here. I will see if I can find that out.
Nothing is wrong with my solution that I am aware of but my best guess is that even though it may not be too expensive to install alarms, manufacturers would bark about the cost and then pass it onto consumers who would complain about having to have a mandatory "something extra" they had to pay for. That's my best guess.
So what's wrong with the solution you just suggested?
I don't know if airbags are mandatory here. I will see if I can find that out.
Nothing is wrong with my solution that I am aware of but my best guess is that even though it may not be too expensive to install alarms, manufacturers would bark about the cost and then pass it onto consumers who would complain about having to have a mandatory "something extra" they had to pay for. That's my best guess.
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
'Our Race is Our Nation'
From Wiki:
Airbags become mandatory
On July 11, 1984, the U.S. government required cars being produced after April 1, 1989 to have driver's side air bags or automatic seat belts (the automatic seat belt was a technology, now discarded, that "forced" motorists to wear seatbelts). Airbag introduction was stimulated by the U.S. DOT.[7]
In 1998, dual front airbags were mandated by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), and de-powered, or second-generation air bags were also mandated. This was due to the injuries caused by first-generation air bags that were designed to be powerful enough to restrain people who were not wearing seatbelts.
Airbags become mandatory
On July 11, 1984, the U.S. government required cars being produced after April 1, 1989 to have driver's side air bags or automatic seat belts (the automatic seat belt was a technology, now discarded, that "forced" motorists to wear seatbelts). Airbag introduction was stimulated by the U.S. DOT.[7]
In 1998, dual front airbags were mandated by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), and de-powered, or second-generation air bags were also mandated. This was due to the injuries caused by first-generation air bags that were designed to be powerful enough to restrain people who were not wearing seatbelts.
'Our Race is Our Nation'
RedGlitter;668378 wrote: Nothing is wrong with my solution that I am aware of but my best guess is that even though it may not be too expensive to install alarms, manufacturers would bark about the cost and then pass it onto consumers who would complain about having to have a mandatory "something extra" they had to pay for. That's my best guess.
Maybe that's what comes of saying every life's invaluable instead of costing out the benefits?
Maybe that's what comes of saying every life's invaluable instead of costing out the benefits?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
'Our Race is Our Nation'
spot;668394 wrote: Maybe that's what comes of saying every life's invaluable instead of costing out the benefits?
Rather, I think it's laziness and greed. And sometimes apathy.
Rather, I think it's laziness and greed. And sometimes apathy.