How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:24 pm

No evidence for macro evolution. Are you blind. That is pure nonsense.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:37 pm

And still the wannabe scientists keep on putting forth with silliness. Some day they may open their eyes.

Fuzzy · Post by **Fuzzy** » Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:36 am

Ted;1498332 wrote: And still the wannabe scientists keep on putting forth with silliness. Some day they may open their eyes.

I'd say their eyes are always open (when awake that is) but their minds are firmly shut. With a closed mind no new knowledge will enter it. The mind will only accept the writings of the oldest book ever written. There must be something to it, but what is it?

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:34 am

LoL How true.

xfrodobagginsx · Post by **xfrodobagginsx** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 9:24 am

Ted;1498329 wrote: No evidence for macro evolution. Are you blind. That is pure nonsense.

Even Richard Dawkins admits it. Macro Evolution requires transitional fossils, which do not exit. Evolution only occurs within the species, it never produces a new species because that would require an increase in genetic information from one generation to another. The problem is that this has never occured and has never been shown to occur even once. The changes within the species which creates different breeds of dogs, cats, horses, ect. are merely a genetic reshuffling. Here is Richard Dawkins stumped when asked to give an example.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 9:37 am

I skimmed through Dawkins' book on religion "The God Delusion", He was clearly out of his depth. No idea what religion he was describing. Lousy research. Not impressed with Dawkins. Transitional fossils have been found.. Is that not poor research.

Fuzzy · Post by **Fuzzy** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:48 pm

We all know that scientists don't have an answer for everything. That doesn't mean that the crap in the bible is true.

xfrodobagginsx · Post by **xfrodobagginsx** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:17 pm

Fuzzy;1498478 wrote: We all know that scientists don't have an answer for everything. That doesn't mean that the crap in the bible is true.

Don't have an answer for everything? LOL Transitional fossils are the FOUNDATION of Darwinian Evolution and yet he can't name ONE because they don't EXIST!!! You have been duped.

Fuzzy · Post by **Fuzzy** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:48 pm

xfrodobagginsx;1498491 wrote: Don't have an answer for everything? LOL Transitional fossils are the FOUNDATION of Darwinian Evolution and yet he can't name ONE because they don't EXIST!!! You have been duped.

Of course they don't exist, silly. A fish doesn't turn into a bird overnight. It takes millions of years. But of course you would say the earth is only a few thousand years old.

Who is the real duped one? I give you three guesses. Let me know if you need some extra guesses. Haha.

xfrodobagginsx · Post by **xfrodobagginsx** » Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:06 pm

Fuzzy;1498513 wrote: Of course they don't exist, silly. A fish doesn't turn into a bird overnight. It takes millions of years. But of course you would say the earth is only a few thousand years old.

Who is the real duped one? I give you three guesses. Let me know if you need some extra guesses. Haha.

But there is Zero evidence of your assertion. Certainly there should be some sort of transitional fossils. There aren't. ZERO. You have FAITH that they will one day find these missing links. My faith is backed up by the actual evidence.

Fuzzy · Post by **Fuzzy** » Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:45 am

When people claim that evolution is wrong because we “haven’t found the missing link, they understand little to nothing about evolution.

Faith is a belief not based on proof. You keep claiming there is evidence for your beliefs. But you can't produce any concrete evidence.

xfrodobagginsx · Post by **xfrodobagginsx** » Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:29 pm

Fuzzy;1498555 wrote: When people claim that evolution is wrong because we “haven’t found the missing link, they understand little to nothing about evolution.

Faith is a belief not based on proof. You keep claiming there is evidence for your beliefs. But you can't produce any concrete evidence.

I can produce tons of Concrete evidence, but you even admit that Evolution is faith based. It's a religion.

Let' look at some evidence for the existence of God. Have you heard of Irreducible Complexity? It proves that Darwinian Evolution couldn't have happened.

Fuzzy · Post by **Fuzzy** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:13 am

xfrodobagginsx;1498633 wrote: I can produce tons of Concrete evidence, but you even admit that Evolution is faith based. It's a religion.

Let' look at some evidence for the existence of God. Have you heard of Irreducible Complexity? It proves that Darwinian Evolution couldn't have happened.

Yes of course. You are so right.

Keep up the good work.

xfrodobagginsx · Post by **xfrodobagginsx** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:41 pm

Fuzzy;1498712 wrote: Yes of course. You are so right.

Keep up the good work.

THIS VIDEO WILL EXPLAIN HOW THE NEW TESTIMENT OF THE BIBLE WAS CANONIZED (CAME TO BE):

WHOLE VIDEO:

Where Did the New Testament Come From? - Popular Christian Videos

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:41 am

xfrodobagginsx;1498730 wrote: THIS VIDEO WILL EXPLAIN HOW THE NEW TESTIMENT OF THE BIBLE WAS CANONIZED (CAME TO BE):

WHOLE VIDEO:

Where Did the New Testament Come From? - Popular Christian Videos

You could at least get your definitions right

canonize

ËˆkanÉ™nÊŒÉªz/

verb

past tense: canonised; past participle: canonised

1.

(in the Roman Catholic Church) officially declare (a dead person) to be a saint.

"he was the last English saint to be canonized prior to the Reformation"

synonyms: beatify, declare to be a saint

"the last English saint to be canonized"

regard as being above reproach or of great significance.

"we have canonized freedom of speech as an absolute value overriding all others"

2.

sanction by Church authority.

1. It doesn't mean anything about anything coming to be. In this context it simply means that after a few creative edits some Canon in the Church decides to say "Yep, I'll go with that".

2. The very word, "Canon" comes from Latin, whereas the language of the Romans at the time would have been Greek.

3. It is also defined as being unique to the Catholic Church. Well, first of all, the Catholic Church is not the be all & end all of Christianity. Second Jesus was Jewish - certainly not Catholic.

4. The whole concept of the Canonisation of Saints couldn't have come into being until the Canonisation of the Bible, could it? So who was it who canonised the Saints refered to in the Bible before the Church even came to be?

magentaflame · Post by **magentaflame** » Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:44 pm

I think he's talking about canon law based on the septuagent.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:58 pm

Jesus himself was a Jewish man not even a Christian.

C

Fuzzy · Post by **Fuzzy** » Wed Jul 20, 2016 5:32 pm

Jesus was as weird as his followers today. Provided he really existed.

magentaflame · Post by **magentaflame** » Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:28 pm

Historians mostly agree that he did. Josepheus mentiins him .but not in the context that christians see him 1000 years later. Christianity is a roman religion . And has to be seen in that context.

Fuzzy · Post by **Fuzzy** » Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:03 am

magentaflame;1498808 wrote: Historians mostly agree that he did. Josepheus mentiins him .but not in the context that christians see him 1000 years later. Christianity is a roman religion . And has to be seen in that context.

The way I see it, the whole show is about 'belief'. I find hard to believe everything that doesn't make sense and is illogical to me. Religion and invisible entities on top of the list.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:59 am

Fuzzy the whole show is about following in the steps of Jesus. It is not about right belief though some would put it that way.

Fuzzy · Post by **Fuzzy** » Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:29 pm

Ted;1498821 wrote: Fuzzy the whole show is about following in the steps of Jesus. It is not about right belief though some would put it that way.

Apparently Jesus asked people to leave their families and follow him. I won't follow him, I don't trust the guy.

xfrodobagginsx · Post by **xfrodobagginsx** » Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:08 pm

Watch the entire video and there is no doubt dinosaurs walked with men. You may want to skip to about 30 minutes into it. That's when he gets into the hard evidence. Don't watch 10 minutes of it and say "that doesn't prove anything" Skip to about 30 minutes into it and then listen.

xfrodobagginsx · Post by **xfrodobagginsx** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:44 pm

Ted;1498821 wrote: Fuzzy the whole show is about following in the steps of Jesus. It is not about right belief though some would put it that way.

It's not a show and it IS about believing that Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose from the dead for your sins. Following Jesus is the result of Believing Him and placing your faith in Him and Salvation's change of heart toward God.

Fuzzy · Post by **Fuzzy** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:47 pm

xfrodobagginsx;1498945 wrote: It's not a show and it IS about believing that Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose from the dead for your sins. Following Jesus is the result of Believing Him and placing your faith in Him and Salvation's change of heart toward God.

What an absolute load of nonsense. If I have sinned against someone then that someone may or may not forgive me. To have some person die for my sins 2000 years before I even start sinning and then coming back to life and disappear in the clouds, which means he didn't really die, is just too stupid to be true.

Pull the other one.

Anyway, after next Friday we will know more. Some idiot on YouTube reckons the world will surely end on July 29 2016.

I'm waiting to see whether the video will still be available on Saturday.

magentaflame · Post by **magentaflame** » Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:39 pm

Fuzzy;1498811 wrote: The way I see it, the whole show is about 'belief'. I find hard to believe everything that doesn't make sense and is illogical to me. Religion and invisible entities on top of the list.

I concur.

From the west eh?

Hmmmm name rings a bell.:sneaky:

Fuzzy · Post by **Fuzzy** » Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:45 pm

magentaflame;1499027 wrote:

Hmmmm name rings a bell.:sneaky:

I'm not surprised, the country is full of Fuzzies and Wuzzies.:wah:

xfrodobagginsx · Post by **xfrodobagginsx** » Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:29 pm

Dr.Jason Lisle: Proof of Creation:

Fuzzy · Post by **Fuzzy** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:50 am

If you need videos to put your point across you really haven't got a leg to stand on.

Forget it, man. There just is no real proof, only fabricated BS.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:42 am

More from Jason Lisle...

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:29 am

Jesus did no die to save us. That is an interpretation of an ancient writing. He clearly was executed for treason or subversive actions. With some 23000 different versions of the Christian faith and many of them claim to have the only handle on the truth,. Which one should I believe? The fact is the early church to about 400 CE did not believe in that approach. They believed in following him and trying to promote justice and compassion. Later additions had him become God incarnate and the atoning death, the virgin birth. These are later additions and do not reflect the earliest church of the apostles. The Bible was never meant to be interpreted the same way for ever. It is to be reinterpreted as our knowledge and experiences move ahead. Fundamentalism and the reading of the Bible literally came into vogue about 200 years ago. The Bible speaks of the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven. In both cases according to scholars it is speaking of a very earthly kingdom right here on earth.

xfrodobagginsx · Post by **xfrodobagginsx** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:44 pm

Ted;1499103 wrote: Jesus did no die to save us. That is an interpretation of an ancient writing. He clearly was executed for treason or subversive actions. With some 23000 different versions of the Christian faith and many of them claim to have the only handle on the truth,. Which one should I believe? The fact is the early church to about 400 CE did not believe in that approach. They believed in following him and trying to promote justice and compassion. Later additions had him become God incarnate and the atoning death, the virgin birth. These are later additions and do not reflect the earliest church of the apostles. The Bible was never meant to be interpreted the same way for ever. It is to be reinterpreted as our knowledge and experiences move ahead. Fundamentalism and the reading of the Bible literally came into vogue about 200 years ago. The Bible speaks of the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven. In both cases according to scholars it is speaking of a very earthly kingdom right here on earth.

Jesus died to save us. It's in the Scriptures that were written Hundreds of years Before His Birth. It's in the Scriptures that were written by the actual eyewitnesses AFTER His Death, Burial and Resurrection. The Scriptures are supported by the Historical writings of Christ's day. You should believe the one that lines up with Scripture. Fundamentalism has always been around. Many of them were the underground Church who was persecuted for their faith throughout the Centuries. You don't know the scriptures. There isn't a later edition of the Bible. The manuscripts were written by the actual eyewitnesses or they were rejected from the NT. That's the main reason why many of the books were rejected because they were not written by the eyewitnesses.

Fuzzy · Post by **Fuzzy** » Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:18 am

xfrod, tell me something. In your opinion, what would be the difference (for me or anyone) between simply dying and going to heaven?

I mean where would I go if I didn't go to heaven, or hell for that matter?

I can't remember having been to any of those places before I was born. What has changed? The so called fact that I was born a sinner?

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:25 pm

Xfrod I write from my study of scholarly writings and personal interaction with scholars some among the best in the world. Ie Dom Crossan and Marcus Borg were recognized as the best Jesus scholars in the world. Now as for scripture scholarship does not supporft your position in any way. The Gospels were not written by eye witnesses. None of the writers whomever they were never had any contact with Jesus. Paul has only his own experiences to write about and I admire his writings, that is the authentic Pauline letters. Mark the earliest gospel was written about the late 60s. He was writing from other sources and oral tradition. Matthew was written in the 70s. Luke in the lat 70s to early 80s once again whomever the writer was he never met or saw Jesus and John was written at the end of the 1st cent. If we look at ages and life span it was about 35 at that time. Mark would have been a small child at the time of Jesus Matthew would not even around at the time of Jesus and John would have been in his 70s to 80s have been at best non existence before the crucifixion and dead at the Birth of Jesus. The scriptures have been put together from oral tradition, ancient other sources and probably some written sources. They have been put together from multiple sources and that is why you have at least 2 different creation stories and aboout 3 Noah stories/ They have been added to, subtracted from, redacted and revised over and over. That is the history. Mine is not a blind faityh Jesusd said you will know the truth and it will set you free. Amen. Perhapsa you should do a little research on the scholars and their evidence. Fundamentalism is about 200 years old (many scholars) and is a grievous error in reading and a curse to the Christian faith.

After some 60 years of study and research both at home and at university and at the Vancouver school of Theology I know nothing about the scriptures!!!!! I trust God I do not worship the Bible because that is a form of idolatry.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:41 pm

It is believed by some scholars that the statement "Thou art Peter and upon this rock . . . Church" was a later addition added to the Bible by the church much later. How did Judas die. That was indeed a feat. Both ways at the same time?!!! Let's not forget the at least 2 different Noah stories.

xfrodobagginsx · Post by **xfrodobagginsx** » Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:33 pm

Ted;1499242 wrote: It is believed by some scholars that the statement "Thou art Peter and upon this rock . . . Church" was a later addition added to the Bible by the church much later. How did Judas die. That was indeed a feat. Both ways at the same time?!!! Let's not forget the at least 2 different Noah stories.

Judas was different details of the same story. The phrase "Thou are Peter and upon this rock..." is in every manuscript as far as I know. So it shouldn't be in dispute. Especially since it lines up with other verses in the Bible.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:32 am

Eyewitness testimony? Of people that hadn't even been born until hundreds of years after the supposed execution of this rebel - that is, if he even existed in the first place - which, I might add, has never been proven. There isn't any evidence of the census having taken place. And there is no reason for anyone to have to return to there birthplace in order to be taxed. Why would there be? The Romans wouldn't have been interested in where they were born - only where they were at the time, so they could grab their money. Besides, a great number probably wouldn't have any idea where they were born. From the outset - the story of the Nativity, the whole story falls apart. It may have been said, thousands of years previously, in various different interpretations, that there would, one day, be some sort of Saviour. Well, that is hardly unique of Religion. Does the term "Come the Revolution" sound familiar? It's no different. One day it's bound to happen. It doesn't mean that it was any sort of Divine Prophesy, only that some people say that he was who the prophesy was all about. Of course, "The Life of Brian" was never meant to be taken as anything but a farce, but it holds a lot of truths behind it.

As far as proof of his existence is concerned, don't even think about citing Tacitus, which was originally considered to be the only piece of evidence as to his existence, as that has already been demonstrated as having been manipulated & creatively edited, with letters erased & replaced with others, so as to change their meaning. It has already been discredited. Nor is citation of other characters in the story who are known to exist prove anything. Each series of "Blackadder" includes the Sovereigns of the country. While each of these Sovereigns are known to have existed, mention of them, and being able to produce their bodily remains is not proof that Blackadder really existed.

There are no eyewitness accounts - only hearsay tales passed down by word of mouth until such time as someone decided to put these tales down in writing, with a little embellishment of their own. The notion of 'eyewitnesse accounts' is no real different from the "well, this bloke down the pub told me that his brother in law said he had a neighbour whose mate said....".

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:07 am

An understanding of "Midrash" answers most if not all of the criticisms above. As far as Tacitus goes scholars have a much different interpretation of the whole issue. Read "Did Jesus Exist" by Bart Ehrmann for an understanding of the historical method. The word is "MIDRASH" as understood in the ancient past.

Fuzzy · Post by **Fuzzy** » Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:52 pm

Has Jesus arrived yet?

xfrodobagginsx · Post by **xfrodobagginsx** » Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:03 pm

FourPart;1499273 wrote: Eyewitness testimony? Of people that hadn't even been born until hundreds of years after the supposed execution of this rebel - that is, if he even existed in the first place - which, I might add, has never been proven. There isn't any evidence of the census having taken place. And there is no reason for anyone to have to return to there birthplace in order to be taxed. Why would there be? The Romans wouldn't have been interested in where they were born - only where they were at the time, so they could grab their money. Besides, a great number probably wouldn't have any idea where they were born. From the outset - the story of the Nativity, the whole story falls apart. It may have been said, thousands of years previously, in various different interpretations, that there would, one day, be some sort of Saviour. Well, that is hardly unique of Religion. Does the term "Come the Revolution" sound familiar? It's no different. One day it's bound to happen. It doesn't mean that it was any sort of Divine Prophesy, only that some people say that he was who the prophesy was all about. Of course, "The Life of Brian" was never meant to be taken as anything but a farce, but it holds a lot of truths behind it.

As far as proof of his existence is concerned, don't even think about citing Tacitus, which was originally considered to be the only piece of evidence as to his existence, as that has already been demonstrated as having been manipulated & creatively edited, with letters erased & replaced with others, so as to change their meaning. It has already been discredited. Nor is citation of other characters in the story who are known to exist prove anything. Each series of "Blackadder" includes the Sovereigns of the country. While each of these Sovereigns are known to have existed, mention of them, and being able to produce their bodily remains is not proof that Blackadder really existed.

There are no eyewitness accounts - only hearsay tales passed down by word of mouth until such time as someone decided to put these tales down in writing, with a little embellishment of their own. The notion of 'eyewitnesse accounts' is no real different from the "well, this bloke down the pub told me that his brother in law said he had a neighbour whose mate said....".

You obviously don't know what you are talking about. The Biblical writings of Christ were written by those who knew Him personally and were eyewitnesses. Peter was an apostle. James and Jude were His half brothers. John was a disciple. If He existed in the first place? Really? You obviously don't know about the dozens of writings from the Historians of His day, not to mention the writings of Josephus and the Roman Historians. They worked for the Caesars and would have been killed if they were lying. The prophecies are divine because there are hundreds of them that were fulfilled in Christ including where He would be born in bethlehem, when He would be born, how He would die, betrayed for 30 pieces of silver and many many more. It's impossible that He is NOT the Christ. I don't need Tacitus. I have dozens of other writings of Him written by early Historians. Again, they ARE eyewitness accounts. Look up when the books were written and by whom. Do a little more research.

Here are some of the Early Writings Regarding Christ by Historians:

Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ

TACITUS(55-117) A.D.Cornelius Tactitus is regarded as the greatest historian of ancient Rome. Writing on the reign of Nero, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians in Rome.

“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of on of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the word find their center and become popular.

PLINY THE YOUNGER: Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor who wrote a letter to Trajan regarding how to deal with Christians who worshiped Christ. These letters concern an episode which marks the first time the Roman government acknowledged Christianity as a religion separate from Judaism, and set a precedent for the massive persecution of Christians that takes place in the second and third centuries.“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sand in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath not to any wicked deeds, not to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor to deny any trust when they should be call to deliver it up, after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food —but food of an ordinary but and innocent kind.

BABYLONIAN TALMUD: (Completed in the 6th Century A.D

The Babylonian Talmud is a Rabbinic commentary of the Jewish scriptures (Tanach: Old Testament). They are a look into what is a hostile source was saying about Jesus. They could not deny the miracles but claimed that it was sorcery rather than admit to what was a known fact.

On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because He has practiced sorcery (an admission of his miracles) and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the even of the Passover.

The Babylonian Talmud, vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a

LUCIAN: (120-180 A.D.)

a Greek satirist that spoke scornfully of Christ and Christians, affirming that they were real and historical people, never saying that they were fictional characters.

“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day — the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account¦.You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.

Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13.

LETTER OF MARA BARSARAPION: (73 A.D.)

Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who lived in the first century A.D. He wrote a letter to his son Serapion that mentions the Jews who killed their King. The letter is now in the possession of the British Museum.

“What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?¦After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men¦The wise king¦Lived on in the teachings he enacted.

THALLUS: (52 A.D.)

One of the first secular writers that mentioned Christ. Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. Unfortunately, his writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus, a Christian who wrote about AD 221 mentioned Thallus’ account of an eclipse of the sun (Luke 23:44-45).“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.

Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.

PHLEGON: (1st Century)

A secular historian wrote a history named, “Chronicles. This original work has been lost, Julius Africanus preserved a small fragment in his writings. Phlegon mentions the eclipse (Matthew 27:45) during the crucifixion of Jesus.

“During the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon.Africanus, Chronography, 18:1

SUETONIUS: (69-140 A.D.)

A Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. He refers to Christ and Christians and the “disturbances caused by them, namely not worshipping idols and loving all, including their tormentors.

“Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christ], he [Claudius] expelled them from the city [Rome]. Acts 18:2, which took place in 49 A.D.

Life of Claudius, 25:4.

In another work Suetonius wrote about the fire which devastated Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians and exacted a heavy punishment upon them, among them covering them with pitch and burning them alive in his gardens.

“Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief.

Lives of the Caesars, 26.2

TOLEDOTH YESHU: (6 Century)

This is a derogatory version of the life of Jesus, growing out of the response of the Jewish community to Christianity. The tradition presented here is most commonly dated to approximately the 6th century CE. The text it self is closer to the 14th century.

Mentions the empty tomb and that the Jewish leaders found it empty. That Jesus was crucified on the eve of the Passover and that He claimed to be God. That Jesus performed sorcery, he healed, and that he taught Rabbis. All of this from a hostile source, with the references above it is a historical fact that Jesus did miracles. His enemies could not refute it, rather they explained it away as sorcery!

CELSUS: (2nd Century)

Criticizes the Gospels, unknowingly reinforces the authors and the content, he alludes to 80 different quotes in the Bible. Admits that the miracles of Jesus were generally believed in the 2nd century.

JULIAN THE APOSTATE: (332-363 A.D.)

Emperor of Rome mentions the Gospels, miracles and other facts about Jesus. Julian had struggled to end the power of Christians in the Roman Empire. Since the day fifty years earlier that Constantine conquered in the sign of the cross, Christian influence had steadily grown. As Julian lay dying from a mortal wound he made the following remark:

“As he bled, the dying emperor groaned, “You have conquered, O Galilean, referring to Jesus Christ.

CLEMENT OF ROME: (100 A.D.)

Clement affirms the Resurrection, Gospels and that Jesus was sent to earth by God to take away our sins.

“Clement was the fourth bishop of Rome, the first being Peter. Did he know Peter and Paul? It is completely possible that those two Spirit-filled men taught him. Clement even wrote a letter to the Corinthian church that echoed the teachings of the apostles.

IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH: (50-107 A.D.)

Disciple of the apostles Peter, Paul, and John, who was martyred for his faith in Jesus. He was obviously convinced that Jesus really had lived and that Jesus was all that the apostles has said He was.

“¦nearness to the sword is nearness to God; to be among the wild beasts is to be in the arms of God; only let it be in the name of Jesus Christ. I endure all things that I may suffer together with him, since he who became perfect man strengthens me¦We have not only to be called Christians, but to be Christians.

While the emperor Trajan was on a visit to Asia Minor, he arrested Ignatius. When the bishop confessed his faith in Christ, the Emperor sent him in chains to Rome to die. He was hustled to the arena at once and thrown to two fierce lions who immediately devoured him.

QUADRATUS: (125 A.D.)

Bishop of Athens and a disciple of the apostles. Church historian Eusebius has preserved the only work that we have from Quadratus.

“The deeds of our Savior were always before you, for they were true miracles; those that were healed, those that were raised from the dead, who were seen, not only when healed and when raised, but were always present. They remained living a long time, not only whilst our Lord was on earth, but likewise when he had left the earth. So that some of them have also lived in our times.

Eusebius, IV, III

EPISTLE OF BARNABAS: (130-38 A.D.)

Mentions the Resurrection, miracles, content of the Gospels and the crucifixion of Jesus.

ARISTIDES: (138-161 A.D.)

Aristides was a second-century Christian believer and philosopher from Athens. This portion of his defense of Christianity was addressed to the Roman Emperor Antonius Pius, who reigned from 138-161 A.D.

“The Son of the most high God, revealed by the Holy Spirit, descended from heaven, born of a Hebrew Virgin. His flesh he received from the Virgin, and he revealed himself in the human nature as the Son of God. In his goodness which brought the glad tidings, he has won the whole world by his life-giving preaching¦He selected twelve apostles and taught the whole world by his mediatorial, light-giving truth.

And he was crucified, being pierced with nails by the Jews; and he rose from the dead and ascended to heaven. He sent the apostles into all the world and instructed all by divine miracles full of wisdom. Their preaching bears blossoms and fruits to this day, and calls the whole world to illumination.

Carey, “Aristides, 68.

JUSTIN MARTYR(106-167 A.D.)

Justin Martyr is regarded as one of the greatest early Christian apologists. He was born around 100 A.D and was beheaded for his faith in Jesus in 167 A.D. He mentions as facts many things about Jesus and Christianity, such as: The Magi (wise men who brought gifts from Arabia), King Herod, His crucifixion, His garments parted among the Roman soldiers, the apostles leaving him on the night of his arrest, his fulfilled prophecies, His resurrection and His ascending into heaven among many others. These quotes can be found in his debate with Trypho the Jew

HEGESIPPUS]: (2 Century)

Eusebius draws the conclusion that Hegesippus was a Jew that wrote five books called, “Memoirs. Only fragments remain of his original work in the writings of Eusebius. They show that Hegesippus traveled extensively trying to determine if the stories of Jesus and the apostles were true. He found that they were accurate, even in the troubled church in Corinth.

“The Corinthian church continued in the true doctrine until Primus became bishop. I mixed with them on my voyage to Rome and spent several days with the Corinthians, during which we were refreshed with the true doctrine. On arrival at Rome I pieced together the succession down to Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus, Anicetus being succeeded by Soter and he by Eleutherus. In every line of bishops and in every city things accord with the preaching of the Law, the Prophets, and the Lord.

Eusebius, The History of the Church, 9.22.2.

TRAJAN: (53-117 A.D.)

Trajan is a Roman Emperor who wrote a letter [see letter] in response to the Governor of Asia Minor, Pliny the Younger. Pliny needed advice in dealing with “Christians who renounced their belief in Jesus due to fear of torture and execution.

MACROBIUS: (4th-5th Century)

Pascal (Pensees) mentions a quote of Augustus Caesar as an evidence to the murder of the 7-20 male babies (this is based on the population of Bethlehem in 4-6 B.C., which was 700-1,000 people) by King Herod in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:16).

King Herod heard that a king was to be born and his fear and mental instability caused him to kill these male children under two years of age. King Herod killed his Wife, mother in law, and three sons. This is in character with his life of murder and paranoia. King Herod’s reign was described by his enemies as, “He stole to the throne like a fox, ruled like a tiger, and died like a dog.

Saturnalia, lib. 2, ch.4.

HADRIAN: (106-167 A.D.)

ustin Martyr quotes this Roman Emperor’s letter to Minucius Fundanus, proconsul of Asia Minor. This letter deals with accusations from pagans against the Christians.“I have received the letter addressed to me by your predecessor Serenius Granianus, a most illustrious man; and this communication I am unwilling to pass over in silence, lest innocent persons be disturbed, and occasion be given to the informers for practicing villainy. Accordingly, if the inhabitants of your province will so far sustain this petition of theirs as to accuse the Christians in some court of law, I do not prohibit them from doing so.

But I will not suffer them to make use of mere entreaties and outcries. For it is far more just, if any one desires to make an accusation, that you give judgment upon it. If, therefore, any one makes the accusation, and furnishes proof that the said men do anything contrary to the laws, you shall adjudge punishments in proportion to the offences. And this, by Hercules; you shall give special heed to, that if any man shall, through mere calumny, bring an accusation against any of these persons, you shall award to him more severe punishments in proportion to his wickedness.

Justin Martyr, The First Apology, Chapters, 68-69.JUVENAL: (55 AD-127 AD)

Juvenal makes a reference of the tortures of Christians by Nero in Rome.

“But just describe Tigellinus and you will blaze amid those faggots in which men, with their throats tightly gripped, stand and burn and smoke, and you trace a broad furrow through the middle of the arena.

Satires, 1, lines 147-157.SENECA: (3 B.C.-65 A.D.)

Seneca mentions the cruelties that Nero imposes upon Christians.

“The other kind of evil comes, so to speak, in the form of a huge parade. Surrounding it is a retinue of swords and fire and chains and a mob of beasts to be let loose upon the disemboweled entrails of men. Picture to yourself under his head the prison, the cross, the rack, the hook, and the stake which they drive straight through a man until it protrudes from his throat. Think of human limbs torn apart by chariots driven in opposite directions, of the terrible shirt smeared and interwoven with inflammable materials, and of all the other contrivances devised by cruelty, in addition to those which I have mentioned!

Epistulae Morales, Epistle 14, “On the Reasons for Withdrawing from the World.

HIEROCLES: (AD 284-305)

A quote by Eusebius preserves some of the text of this lost work of Hierocles, Philalethes or Lover of Truth. In this quote, Hierocles condemns Peter and Paul as sorcerers. Again, their miracles could not be denied, rather they claimed that they used sorcery.

“And this point is also worth noticing, that whereas the tales of Jesus have been vamped up by Peter and Paul and a few others of the kind,–men who were liars and devoid of education and wizards.

Eusebius, The Treatise of Eusebius, ch. 2.

ANTONIUS PIUS: (86 AD to 161 AD)

A letter from the Roman Emperor Antoninus Pius to the general assembly in Asia Minor. This letter says that the officials in Aisa Minor were getting upset at the Christians in their province, and that no changes are to be made in Antoninus’ method of dealing with them.

“The Emperor Caesar Titus AElius Adrianus Antoninus Augustus Pius, Supreme Pontiff, in the fifteenth year of his tribuneship, Consul for the third time, Father of the fatherland, to the Common Assembly of Asia, greeting: I should have thought that the gods themselves would see to it that such offenders should not escape.

For if they had the power, they themselves would much rather punish those who refuse to worship them; but it is you who bring trouble on these persons, and accuse as the opinion of atheists that which they hold, and lay to their charge certain other things which we are unable to prove.

But it would be advantageous to them that they should be thought to die for that of which they are accused, and they conquer you by being lavish of their lives rather than yield that obedience which you require of them. And regarding the earthquakes which have already happened and are now occurring, it is not seemly that you remind us of them, losing heart whenever they occur, and thus set your conduct in contrast with that of these men; for they have much greater confidence towards God than you yourselves have.

And you, indeed, seem at such times to ignore the gods, and you neglect the temples, and make no recognition of the worship of God. And hence you are jealous of those who do serve Him, and persecute them to the death.

Concerning such persons, some others also of the governors of provinces wrote to my most divine father; to whom he replied that they should not at all disturb such persons, unless they were found to be attempting anything against the Roman government. And to myself many have sent intimations regarding such persons, to whom I also replied in pursuance of my father’s judgment.

But if any one has a matter to bring against any person of this class, merely as such a person, let the accused be acquitted of the charge, even though he should be found to be such an one; but let the accuser he amenable to justice.

Justin Martyr, The First Apology, ch. 70

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:05 pm

Nonsense. We don't even know who the gospel writers were. The names applied to the gospel writers were given long after they were written.

xfrodobagginsx · Post by **xfrodobagginsx** » Tue Aug 02, 2016 5:55 pm

Ted;1499388 wrote: Nonsense. We don't even know who the gospel writers were. The names applied to the gospel writers were given long after they were written.

Wrong. The vast majority of Scholars would disagree with you.

xfrodobagginsx · Post by **xfrodobagginsx** » Tue Aug 02, 2016 5:55 pm

Several years ago, My cousin was playing with a lighter in his bedroom. He caught a newspaper or comic book or something on fire and threw it on his bed. There were several people sleeping there. The whole house went up in flames. Everyone got out except for my 3 year old cousin sarah. They had written her off as dead. The whole house was in flames and filled with smoke. An off duty fireman happened to be driving by and saw the smoke. He stopped to help. He looked into the bedroom window and saw her sitting under the window with her hands on her head. He pulled her out and she was burned and has some scars to this day. He asked her how she knew to come over to that window and sit on the ground. She said that the man in the fire told her "Don't be afraid, to go over to the window sit down and put your hands over your head and face". Years later, she recounted her story with me. She said that the man had no face, light shining from it, he was 3 feet tall and dressed in white. He was floating in the corner of the room. My Grandparents were deeply committed Christians. Often times my Grandmother would be up all night, having trouble sleeping, praying for the safety of the family. At the same exact time that the fire was going on, my grandmother was several miles away sleeping in her bed. She heard a voice that told her "There's been a fire, Liz and the kids got out ok". A few minutes later, my Grandfather got the call on the phone "There's been a fire, liz and the kids got out ok" He tried to tell her what they said, but she already knew. The reason that God Spoke to her, I believe, is because it was HER prayer that the Lord was answering. Otherwise, my cousin would have died in the fire.

ZAP · Post by **ZAP** » Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:12 am

xfrodobagginsx;1499565 wrote: Several years ago, My cousin was playing with a lighter in his bedroom. He caught a newspaper or comic book or something on fire and threw it on his bed. There were several people sleeping there. The whole house went up in flames. Everyone got out except for my 3 year old cousin sarah. They had written her off as dead. The whole house was in flames and filled with smoke. An off duty fireman happened to be driving by and saw the smoke. He stopped to help. He looked into the bedroom window and saw her sitting under the window with her hands on her head. He pulled her out and she was burned and has some scars to this day. He asked her how she knew to come over to that window and sit on the ground. She said that the man in the fire told her "Don't be afraid, to go over to the window sit down and put your hands over your head and face". Years later, she recounted her story with me. She said that the man had no face, light shining from it, he was 3 feet tall and dressed in white. He was floating in the corner of the room. My Grandparents were deeply committed Christians. Often times my Grandmother would be up all night, having trouble sleeping, praying for the safety of the family. At the same exact time that the fire was going on, my grandmother was several miles away sleeping in her bed. She heard a voice that told her "There's been a fire, Liz and the kids got out ok". A few minutes later, my Grandfather got the call on the phone "There's been a fire, liz and the kids got out ok" He tried to tell her what they said, but she already knew. The reason that God Spoke to her, I believe, is because it was HER prayer that the Lord was answering. Otherwise, my cousin would have died in the fire.

Thanks for sharing that.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:01 pm

xfrodobagginsx;1499565 wrote: Several years ago, My cousin was playing with a lighter in his bedroom. He caught a newspaper or comic book or something on fire and threw it on his bed. There were several people sleeping there. The whole house went up in flames. Everyone got out except for my 3 year old cousin sarah. They had written her off as dead. The whole house was in flames and filled with smoke. An off duty fireman happened to be driving by and saw the smoke. He stopped to help. He looked into the bedroom window and saw her sitting under the window with her hands on her head. He pulled her out and she was burned and has some scars to this day. He asked her how she knew to come over to that window and sit on the ground. She said that the man in the fire told her "Don't be afraid, to go over to the window sit down and put your hands over your head and face". Years later, she recounted her story with me. She said that the man had no face, light shining from it, he was 3 feet tall and dressed in white. He was floating in the corner of the room. My Grandparents were deeply committed Christians. Often times my Grandmother would be up all night, having trouble sleeping, praying for the safety of the family. At the same exact time that the fire was going on, my grandmother was several miles away sleeping in her bed. She heard a voice that told her "There's been a fire, Liz and the kids got out ok". A few minutes later, my Grandfather got the call on the phone "There's been a fire, liz and the kids got out ok" He tried to tell her what they said, but she already knew. The reason that God Spoke to her, I believe, is because it was HER prayer that the Lord was answering. Otherwise, my cousin would have died in the fire.

A random occurrence, no matter how fortuitous, is no evidence of anything to do with the divine. However, it is a demonstration of how the scriptures would have come to be. You hear of the events. Your mind selectively picks out a few & disregards the rest. You then apply that to fit with your personal belief, and the story takes on a new tack in being related to someone else, etc. You weren't in the room at the time to see what happened. You are merely going by 2nd hand information. Smoke inhalation is known to cause hallucinations. The relatnig of the story also happened years after the event, where the passage of time would have distorted things in the memory. The scriptures, in turn go by 100s of stories being passed down the line, each being subject to its own embellishments. YouTube & FaceBay are packed with pictures (often photoshopped) claiming to be images of 'angels' at the side of someone at death's door, but when you look at them the 'image' is clearly nothing but tricks of the light & shadows. The mind is also known to see faces in random patterns - such as in clouds etc. - or smoke.

xfrodobagginsx · Post by **xfrodobagginsx** » Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:49 pm

FourPart;1499603 wrote: A random occurrence, no matter how fortuitous, is no evidence of anything to do with the divine. However, it is a demonstration of how the scriptures would have come to be. You hear of the events. Your mind selectively picks out a few & disregards the rest. You then apply that to fit with your personal belief, and the story takes on a new tack in being related to someone else, etc. You weren't in the room at the time to see what happened. You are merely going by 2nd hand information. Smoke inhalation is known to cause hallucinations. The relatnig of the story also happened years after the event, where the passage of time would have distorted things in the memory. The scriptures, in turn go by 100s of stories being passed down the line, each being subject to its own embellishments. YouTube & FaceBay are packed with pictures (often photoshopped) claiming to be images of 'angels' at the side of someone at death's door, but when you look at them the 'image' is clearly nothing but tricks of the light & shadows. The mind is also known to see faces in random patterns - such as in clouds etc. - or smoke.

You must not have read it. 1) My Grandmother heard a voice that woke her up and told her what happened. 2) Then she recieved a phone call several minutes later confirming what she heard. 3) My cousin saw an angel in the fire who told her what to do and where to go. 4) A fireman was off duty just happened to be where he told her to go. You can't discount my Grandmother as light and shadows when there is no way she could have known about what was happening. My Grandmother prayed for the family every day and God answered her prayer. That's what happened. That's why she was the one to hear the voice and why my cousin is alive. This story isn't scripture.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:27 pm

xfrodobagginsx;1499642 wrote: You must not have read it. 1) My Grandmother heard a voice that woke her up and told her what happened. 2) Then she recieved a phone call several minutes later confirming what she heard. 3) My cousin saw an angel in the fire who told her what to do and where to go. 4) A fireman was off duty just happened to be where he told her to go. You can't discount my Grandmother as light and shadows when there is no way she could have known about what was happening. My Grandmother prayed for the family every day and God answered her prayer. That's what happened. That's why she was the one to hear the voice and why my cousin is alive. This story isn't scripture.

I didn't say it WAS scripture, only that it was typical of how scripture comes to be - by tales that are relayed by words of mouth, many years after the event, clouded by faded memories & embellished (subconciously) in so doing to explain certain things. For example - it is possible that what she was 'told' was actually something she had been taught in school, and could have recalled it in a dream in that moment of danger (the human mind does this - as in the 'life rushing before your eyes' scenario - there is a theory that the mind does this to access any related previous experience) but that over the years, this is reinterpreted into the status of a vision.

As for a distant relative knowing of things - to that I have no doubt whatsoever of its plausibility. I am a strong believer in telepathy - especially within close family. I have had similar experiences myself. Notably one occasion when we had recently moved to a new house in Lancashire, and I came down & told my parents that Colin & Viv (Uncle & Aunt) were in hospital in Birmingham. I was about 5 years old & had no idea where Birmingham was. I was sent back to bed & it was dismissed as being a dream. The next morning we received a telegram. Colin & Viv & been on their way up to pay a surprise visit to our new home & had come off their motorbike, and were, indeed, in hospital in Birmingham. However, I don't take this as being any kind of divine messenger, just inter family telepathy. I have no Scientific evidence for this, other than that animals have been observed to show sign of distress when other members of their herd / pack are also in distress, even when totally separated from each other. In fact you will find that most members here will probably have experienced some similar sort of instance of telepathy in their lives. The thing is, however, it is human nature to try to fill in the gaps & come up with an acceptable explanation, no matter how implausible. With Colin & Viv, I appear to have picked up some kind of telepathic message. Nothing more. Nothing less. There was no reason for this, or any kind of ensuing interaction. It simply was. No big deal.

xfrodobagginsx · Post by **xfrodobagginsx** » Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:24 pm

Please take the time to read this first post and vote in the poll.

Fuzzy · Post by **Fuzzy** » Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:00 pm

According to the Boshongo people of central Africa, in the beginning there was only darkness, water and the great god Bumba.

One day Bumba, in pain from a stomachache, vomited up the sun. In time the sun dried up some of the water, leaving land.

But Bumba was still in pain and vomited some more. Up came the moon, the stars and then some animals: the leopard the crocodile the turtle and finally man etc etc.

Sounds feasible?

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:03 pm

Exfrod you are incorrect in your statements about the gospel writers. I can give you a list of world recognized scholars who disagree with you. The fact is we simply do not know who they were. Also from professors at the Vancouver School of Theology..

I did have a very good psychology professor at university who was blunt about the fact that there are inexplicable things that happen in this world.. I like others have had experiences and I resent folks trying to tell me what I experienced after all it was my experience and not theirs.

To be somewhat blunt I was raised in a literalist and fundamentalist church. It was evil and thus I left. What utter nonsense was being preached and believed. I know for a fact there are others as well many others.

The earliest church did not have all of this crap. They knew that Jesus was a ordinary human being who stood for what he believed was right. They new the scriptures were not to be taken literally. They new the scriptures had to be reinterpreted as knowledge increased and time moved on with new understandings. A few ignorant so called scholars then began fundamentalism.