How To Get To Heaven When You Die

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How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Post by xfrodobagginsx »

This has absolutely nothing to do with the Bible, Also, I don't need this manuscript to prove Jesus Christ existed, there are dozens and dozens of others.
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How To Get To Heaven When You Die

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xfrodobagginsx;1482726 wrote: This has absolutely nothing to do with the Bible, Also, I don't need this manuscript to prove Jesus Christ existed, there are dozens and dozens of others.
Where (and the Bible doesn't count as a Manuscript)?
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How To Get To Heaven When You Die

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FourPart;1482733 wrote: Where (and the Bible doesn't count as a Manuscript)?


Not included are the writings of Josephus, The Bible, The Apochriphical Writings and the writings of the Early Church:

Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ



TACITUS(55-117) A.D.Cornelius Tactitus is regarded as the greatest historian of ancient Rome. Writing on the reign of Nero, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians in Rome.

“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of on of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the word find their center and become popular.”

PLINY THE YOUNGER: Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor who wrote a letter to Trajan regarding how to deal with Christians who worshiped Christ. These letters concern an episode which marks the first time the Roman government acknowledged Christianity as a religion separate from Judaism, and set a precedent for the massive persecution of Christians that takes place in the second and third centuries.“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sand in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath not to any wicked deeds, not to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor to deny any trust when they should be call to deliver it up, after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food —but food of an ordinary but and innocent kind.”

BABYLONIAN TALMUD: (Completed in the 6th Century A.D

The Babylonian Talmud is a Rabbinic commentary of the Jewish scriptures (Tanach: Old Testament). They are a look into what is a hostile source was saying about Jesus. They could not deny the miracles but claimed that it was sorcery rather than admit to what was a known fact.

On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because He has practiced sorcery (an admission of his miracles) and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the even of the Passover.”

The Babylonian Talmud, vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a

LUCIAN: (120-180 A.D.)

a Greek satirist that spoke scornfully of Christ and Christians, affirming that they were real and historical people, never saying that they were fictional characters.

“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day — the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.”

Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13.

LETTER OF MARA BARSARAPION: (73 A.D.)

Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who lived in the first century A.D. He wrote a letter to his son Serapion that mentions the Jews who killed their King. The letter is now in the possession of the British Museum.

“What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?…After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men…The wise king…Lived on in the teachings he enacted.”

THALLUS: (52 A.D.)

One of the first secular writers that mentioned Christ. Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. Unfortunately, his writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus, a Christian who wrote about AD 221 mentioned Thallus’ account of an eclipse of the sun (Luke 23:44-45).“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.”

Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.

PHLEGON: (1st Century)

A secular historian wrote a history named, “Chronicles.” This original work has been lost, Julius Africanus preserved a small fragment in his writings. Phlegon mentions the eclipse (Matthew 27:45) during the crucifixion of Jesus.

“During the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon.”Africanus, Chronography, 18:1

SUETONIUS: (69-140 A.D.)

A Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. He refers to Christ and Christians and the “disturbances” caused by them, namely not worshipping idols and loving all, including their tormentors.

“Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christ], he [Claudius] expelled them from the city [Rome].” Acts 18:2, which took place in 49 A.D.

Life of Claudius, 25:4.

In another work Suetonius wrote about the fire which devastated Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians and exacted a heavy punishment upon them, among them covering them with pitch and burning them alive in his gardens.

“Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief.”

Lives of the Caesars, 26.2

TOLEDOTH YESHU: (6 Century)

This is a derogatory version of the life of Jesus, growing out of the response of the Jewish community to Christianity. The tradition presented here is most commonly dated to approximately the 6th century CE. The text it self is closer to the 14th century.

Mentions the empty tomb and that the Jewish leaders found it empty. That Jesus was crucified on the eve of the Passover and that He claimed to be God. That Jesus performed sorcery, he healed, and that he taught Rabbis. All of this from a hostile source, with the references above it is a historical fact that Jesus did miracles. His enemies could not refute it, rather they explained it away as sorcery!

CELSUS: (2nd Century)

Criticizes the Gospels, unknowingly reinforces the authors and the content, he alludes to 80 different quotes in the Bible. Admits that the miracles of Jesus were generally believed in the 2nd century.

JULIAN THE APOSTATE: (332-363 A.D.)

Emperor of Rome mentions the Gospels, miracles and other facts about Jesus. Julian had struggled to end the power of Christians in the Roman Empire. Since the day fifty years earlier that Constantine conquered in the sign of the cross, Christian influence had steadily grown. As Julian lay dying from a mortal wound he made the following remark:

“As he bled, the dying emperor groaned, “You have conquered, O Galilean,” referring to Jesus Christ.

CLEMENT OF ROME: (100 A.D.)

Clement affirms the Resurrection, Gospels and that Jesus was sent to earth by God to take away our sins.

“Clement was the fourth bishop of Rome, the first being Peter. Did he know Peter and Paul? It is completely possible that those two Spirit-filled men taught him. Clement even wrote a letter to the Corinthian church that echoed the teachings of the apostles.”

IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH: (50-107 A.D.)

Disciple of the apostles Peter, Paul, and John, who was martyred for his faith in Jesus. He was obviously convinced that Jesus really had lived and that Jesus was all that the apostles has said He was.

“…nearness to the sword is nearness to God; to be among the wild beasts is to be in the arms of God; only let it be in the name of Jesus Christ. I endure all things that I may suffer together with him, since he who became perfect man strengthens me…We have not only to be called Christians, but to be Christians.”

While the emperor Trajan was on a visit to Asia Minor, he arrested Ignatius. When the bishop confessed his faith in Christ, the Emperor sent him in chains to Rome to die. He was hustled to the arena at once and thrown to two fierce lions who immediately devoured him.
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QUADRATUS: (125 A.D.)

Bishop of Athens and a disciple of the apostles. Church historian Eusebius has preserved the only work that we have from Quadratus.

“The deeds of our Savior were always before you, for they were true miracles; those that were healed, those that were raised from the dead, who were seen, not only when healed and when raised, but were always present. They remained living a long time, not only whilst our Lord was on earth, but likewise when he had left the earth. So that some of them have also lived in our times.”

Eusebius, IV, III

EPISTLE OF BARNABAS: (130-38 A.D.)

Mentions the Resurrection, miracles, content of the Gospels and the crucifixion of Jesus.

ARISTIDES: (138-161 A.D.)

Aristides was a second-century Christian believer and philosopher from Athens. This portion of his defense of Christianity was addressed to the Roman Emperor Antonius Pius, who reigned from 138-161 A.D.

“The Son of the most high God, revealed by the Holy Spirit, descended from heaven, born of a Hebrew Virgin. His flesh he received from the Virgin, and he revealed himself in the human nature as the Son of God. In his goodness which brought the glad tidings, he has won the whole world by his life-giving preaching…He selected twelve apostles and taught the whole world by his mediatorial, light-giving truth.

And he was crucified, being pierced with nails by the Jews; and he rose from the dead and ascended to heaven. He sent the apostles into all the world and instructed all by divine miracles full of wisdom. Their preaching bears blossoms and fruits to this day, and calls the whole world to illumination.”

Carey, “Aristides,” 68.

JUSTIN MARTYR(106-167 A.D.)

Justin Martyr is regarded as one of the greatest early Christian apologists. He was born around 100 A.D and was beheaded for his faith in Jesus in 167 A.D. He mentions as facts many things about Jesus and Christianity, such as: The Magi (wise men who brought gifts from Arabia), King Herod, His crucifixion, His garments parted among the Roman soldiers, the apostles leaving him on the night of his arrest, his fulfilled prophecies, His resurrection and His ascending into heaven among many others. These quotes can be found in his debate with Trypho the Jew

HEGESIPPUS]: (2 Century)

Eusebius draws the conclusion that Hegesippus was a Jew that wrote five books called, “Memoirs.” Only fragments remain of his original work in the writings of Eusebius. They show that Hegesippus traveled extensively trying to determine if the stories of Jesus and the apostles were true. He found that they were accurate, even in the troubled church in Corinth.

“The Corinthian church continued in the true doctrine until Primus became bishop. I mixed with them on my voyage to Rome and spent several days with the Corinthians, during which we were refreshed with the true doctrine. On arrival at Rome I pieced together the succession down to Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus, Anicetus being succeeded by Soter and he by Eleutherus. In every line of bishops and in every city things accord with the preaching of the Law, the Prophets, and the Lord.”

Eusebius, The History of the Church, 9.22.2.

TRAJAN: (53-117 A.D.)

Trajan is a Roman Emperor who wrote a letter [see letter] in response to the Governor of Asia Minor, Pliny the Younger. Pliny needed advice in dealing with “Christians” who renounced their belief in Jesus due to fear of torture and execution.

MACROBIUS: (4th-5th Century)

Pascal (Pensees) mentions a quote of Augustus Caesar as an evidence to the murder of the 7-20 male babies (this is based on the population of Bethlehem in 4-6 B.C., which was 700-1,000 people) by King Herod in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:16).

King Herod heard that a king was to be born and his fear and mental instability caused him to kill these male children under two years of age. King Herod killed his Wife, mother in law, and three sons. This is in character with his life of murder and paranoia. King Herod’s reign was described by his enemies as, “He stole to the throne like a fox, ruled like a tiger, and died like a dog.”

Saturnalia, lib. 2, ch.4.

HADRIAN: (106-167 A.D.)

ustin Martyr quotes this Roman Emperor’s letter to Minucius Fundanus, proconsul of Asia Minor. This letter deals with accusations from pagans against the Christians.“I have received the letter addressed to me by your predecessor Serenius Granianus, a most illustrious man; and this communication I am unwilling to pass over in silence, lest innocent persons be disturbed, and occasion be given to the informers for practicing villainy. Accordingly, if the inhabitants of your province will so far sustain this petition of theirs as to accuse the Christians in some court of law, I do not prohibit them from doing so.

But I will not suffer them to make use of mere entreaties and outcries. For it is far more just, if any one desires to make an accusation, that you give judgment upon it. If, therefore, any one makes the accusation, and furnishes proof that the said men do anything contrary to the laws, you shall adjudge punishments in proportion to the offences. And this, by Hercules; you shall give special heed to, that if any man shall, through mere calumny, bring an accusation against any of these persons, you shall award to him more severe punishments in proportion to his wickedness.”

Justin Martyr, The First Apology, Chapters, 68-69.JUVENAL: (55 AD-127 AD)

Juvenal makes a reference of the tortures of Christians by Nero in Rome.

“But just describe Tigellinus and you will blaze amid those faggots in which men, with their throats tightly gripped, stand and burn and smoke, and you trace a broad furrow through the middle of the arena.”

Satires, 1, lines 147-157.SENECA: (3 B.C.-65 A.D.)

Seneca mentions the cruelties that Nero imposes upon Christians.

“The other kind of evil comes, so to speak, in the form of a huge parade. Surrounding it is a retinue of swords and fire and chains and a mob of beasts to be let loose upon the disemboweled entrails of men. Picture to yourself under his head the prison, the cross, the rack, the hook, and the stake which they drive straight through a man until it protrudes from his throat. Think of human limbs torn apart by chariots driven in opposite directions, of the terrible shirt smeared and interwoven with inflammable materials, and of all the other contrivances devised by cruelty, in addition to those which I have mentioned!”

Epistulae Morales, Epistle 14, “On the Reasons for Withdrawing from the World.”

HIEROCLES: (AD 284-305)

A quote by Eusebius preserves some of the text of this lost work of Hierocles, Philalethes or Lover of Truth. In this quote, Hierocles condemns Peter and Paul as sorcerers. Again, their miracles could not be denied, rather they claimed that they used sorcery.

“And this point is also worth noticing, that whereas the tales of Jesus have been vamped up by Peter and Paul and a few others of the kind,–men who were liars and devoid of education and wizards.”

Eusebius, The Treatise of Eusebius, ch. 2.

ANTONIUS PIUS: (86 AD to 161 AD)

A letter from the Roman Emperor Antoninus Pius to the general assembly in Asia Minor. This letter says that the officials in Aisa Minor were getting upset at the Christians in their province, and that no changes are to be made in Antoninus’ method of dealing with them.

“The Emperor Caesar Titus AElius Adrianus Antoninus Augustus Pius, Supreme Pontiff, in the fifteenth year of his tribuneship, Consul for the third time, Father of the fatherland, to the Common Assembly of Asia, greeting: I should have thought that the gods themselves would see to it that such offenders should not escape.

For if they had the power, they themselves would much rather punish those who refuse to worship them; but it is you who bring trouble on these persons, and accuse as the opinion of atheists that which they hold, and lay to their charge certain other things which we are unable to prove.

But it would be advantageous to them that they should be thought to die for that of which they are accused, and they conquer you by being lavish of their lives rather than yield that obedience which you require of them. And regarding the earthquakes which have already happened and are now occurring, it is not seemly that you remind us of them, losing heart whenever they occur, and thus set your conduct in contrast with that of these men; for they have much greater confidence towards God than you yourselves have.

And you, indeed, seem at such times to ignore the gods, and you neglect the temples, and make no recognition of the worship of God. And hence you are jealous of those who do serve Him, and persecute them to the death.

Concerning such persons, some others also of the governors of provinces wrote to my most divine father; to whom he replied that they should not at all disturb such persons, unless they were found to be attempting anything against the Roman government. And to myself many have sent intimations regarding such persons, to whom I also replied in pursuance of my father’s judgment.

But if any one has a matter to bring against any person of this class, merely as such a person, let the accused be acquitted of the charge, even though he should be found to be such an one; but let the accuser he amenable to justice.”

Justin Martyr, The First Apology, ch. 70
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Early Historical Documents on Jesus Christ

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The historical documents referring to Christ's life and work may be divided into three classes: pagan sources, Jewish sources, and Christian sources. We shall study the three in succession.

Pagan sources

The non-Christian sources for the historical truth of the Gospels are both few and polluted by hatred and prejudice. A number of reasons have been advanced for this condition of the pagan sources:

· The field of the Gospel history was remote Galilee;

· the Jews were noted as a superstitious race, if we believe Horace (Credat Judoeus Apella, I, Sat., v, 100);

· the God of the Jews was unknown and unintelligible to most pagans of that period;

· the Jews in whose midst Christianity had taken its origin were dispersed among, and hated by, all the pagan nations;

· the Christian religion itself was often confounded with one of the many sects that had sprung up in Judaism, and which could not excite the interest of the pagan spectator.

It is at least certain that neither Jews nor Gentiles suspected in the least the paramount importance of the religion, the rise of which they witnessed among them. These considerations will account for the rarity and the asperity with which Christian events are mentioned by pagan authors. But though Gentile writers do not give us any information about Christ and the early stages of Christianity which we do not possess in the Gospels, and though their statements are made with unconcealed hatred and contempt, still they unwittingly prove the historical value of the facts related by the Evangelists.

We need not delay over a writing entitled the "Acts of Pilate", which must have existed in the second century (Justin, "Apol"., I, 35), and must have been used in the pagan schools to warn boys against the belief of Christians (Eusebius, Church History I.9; Church History IX.5); nor need we inquire into the question whether there existed any authentic census tables of Quirinius.

Tacitus

We possess at least the testimony of Tacitus (A.D. 54-119) for the statements that the Founder of the Christian religion, a deadly superstition in the eyes of the Romans, had been put to death by the procurator Pontius Pilate under the reign of Tiberius; that His religion, though suppressed for a time, broke forth again not only throughout Judea where it had originated, but even in Rome, the conflux of all the streams of wickedness and shamelessness; furthermore, that Nero had diverted from himself the suspicion of the burning of Rome by charging the Christians with the crime; that these latter were not guilty of arson, though they deserved their fate on account of their universal misanthropy. Tacitus, moreover, describes some of the horrible torments to which Nero subjected the Christians (Ann., XV, xliv). The Roman writer confounds the Christians with the Jews, considering them as an especially abject Jewish sect; how little he investigated the historical truth of even the Jewish records may be inferred from the credulity with which he accepted the absurd legends and calumnies about the origin of the Hebrew people (Hist., V, iii, iv).

Suetonius

Another Roman writer who shows his acquaintance with Christ and the Christians is Suetonius (A.D. 75-160). It has been noted that Suetonius considered Christ (Chrestus) as a Roman insurgent who stirred up seditions under the reign of Claudius (A.D. 41-54): "Judaeos, impulsore Chresto, assidue tumultuantes (Claudius) Roma expulit" (Clau., xxv). In his life of Nero he regards that emperor as a public benefactor on account of his severe treatment of the Christians: "Multa sub eo et animadversa severe, et coercita, nec minus instituta . . . . afflicti Christiani, genus hominum superstitious novae et maleficae" (Nero, xvi). The Roman writer does not understand that the Jewish troubles arose from the Jewish antagonism to the Messianic character of Jesus Christ and to the rights of the Christian Church.

Pliny the Younger

Of greater importance is the letter of Pliny the Younger to the Emperor Trajan (about A.D. 61-115), in which the Governor of Bithynia consults his imperial majesty as to how to deal with the Christians living within his jurisdiction. On the one hand, their lives were confessedly innocent; no crime could be proved against them excepting their Christian belief, which appeared to the Roman as an extravagant and perverse superstition. On the other hand, the Christians could not be shaken in their allegiance to Christ, Whom they celebrated as their God in their early morning meetings (Ep., X, 97, 98). Christianity here appears no longer as a religion of criminals, as it does in the texts of Tacitus and Suetonius; Pliny acknowledges the high moral principles of the Christians, admires their constancy in the Faith (pervicacia et inflexibilis obstinatio), which he appears to trace back to their worship of Christ (carmenque Christo, quasi Deo, dicere).

Other pagan writers

The remaining pagan witnesses are of less importance: In the second century Lucian sneered at Christ and the Christians, as he scoffed at the pagan gods. He alludes to Christ's death on the Cross, to His miracles, to the mutual love prevailing among the Christians ("Philopseudes", nn. 13, 16; "De Morte Pereg"). There are also alleged allusions to Christ in Numenius (Origen, Against Celsus IV.51), to His parables in Galerius, to the earthquake at the Crucifixion in Phlegon (Origen, Against Celsus II.14). Before the end of the second century, the logos alethes of Celsus, as quoted by Origen (Contra Celsus, passim), testifies that at that time the facts related in the Gospels were generally accepted as historically true. However scanty the pagan sources of the life of Christ may be, they bear at least testimony to His existence, to His miracles, His parables, His claim to Divine worship, His death on the Cross, and to the more striking characteristics of His religion.

Jewish sources

Philo

Philo, who dies after A.D. 40, is mainly important for the light he throws on certain modes of thought and phraseology found again in some of the Apostles. Eusebius (Church History II.4) indeed preserves a legend that Philo had met St. Peter in Rome during his mission to the Emperor Caius; moreover, that in his work on the contemplative life he describes the life of the Christian Church in Alexandria founded by St. Mark, rather than that of the Essenes and Therapeutae. But it is hardly probable that Philo had heard enough of Christ and His followers to give an historical foundation to the foregoing legends.

Josephus

The earlist non-Christian writer who refers Christ is the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus; born A.D. 37, he was a contemporary of the Apostles, and died in Rome A.D. 94. Two passages in his "Antiquities" which confirm two facts of the inspired Christian records are not disputed. In the one he reports the murder of "John called Baptist" by Herod (Ant., XVIII, v, 2), describing also John's character and work; in the other (Ant., XX, ix, 1) he disapproves of the sentence pronounced by the high priest Ananus against "James, brother of Jesus Who was called Christ." It is antecedently probable that a writer so well informed as Josephus, must have been well acquainted too with the doctrine and the history of Jesus Christ. Seeing, also, that he records events of minor importance in the history of the Jews, it would be surprising if he were to keep silence about Jesus Christ. Consideration for the priests and Pharisees did not prevent him from mentioning the judicial murders of John the Baptist and the Apostle James; his endeavour to find the fulfilment of the Messianic prophecies in Vespasian did not induce him to pass in silence over several Jewish sects, though their tenets appear to be inconsistent with the Vespasian claims. One naturally expects, therefore, a notice about Jesus Christ in Josephus. Antiquities XVIII, iii, 3, seems to satisfy this expectation:
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About this time appeared Jesus, a wise man (if indeed it is right to call Him man; for He was a worker of astonishing deeds, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with joy), and He drew to Himself many Jews (many also of Greeks. This was the Christ.) And when Pilate, at the denunciation of those that are foremost among us, had condemned Him to the cross, those who had first loved Him did not abandon Him (for He appeared to them alive again on the third day, the holy prophets having foretold this and countless other marvels about Him.) The tribe of Christians named after Him did not cease to this day.

A testimony so important as the foregoing could not escape the work of the critics. Their conclusions may be reduced to three headings: those who consider the passage wholly spurious; those who consider it to be wholly authentic; and those who consider it to be a little of each.

Those who regard the passage as spurious

First, there are those who consider the whole passage as spurious. The principal reasons for this view appear to be the following:

· Josephus could not represent Jesus Christ as a simple moralist, and on the other hand he could not emphasize the Messianic prophecies and expectations without offending the Roman susceptibilities;

· the above cited passage from Josephus is said to be unknown to Origen and the earlier patristic writers;

· its very place in the Josephan text is uncertain, since Eusebius (Church History II.6) must have found it before the notices concerning Pilate, while it now stands after them.

But the spuriousness of the disputed Josephan passage does not imply the historian's ignorance of the facts connected with Jesus Christ. Josephus's report of his own juvenile precocity before the Jewish teachers (Vit., 2) reminds one of the story of Christ's stay in the Temple at the age of twelve; the description of his shipwreck on his journey to Rome (Vit., 3) recalls St. Paul's shipwreck as told in the Acts; finally his arbitrary introduction of a deceit practised by the priests of Isis on a Roman lady, after the chapter containing his supposed allusion to Jesus, shows a disposition to explain away the virgin birth of Jesus and to prepare the falsehoods embodied in the later Jewish writings.

Those who regard the passage as authentic, with some spurious additions

A second class of critics do not regard the whole of Josephus's testimony concerning Christ as spurious but they maintain the interpolation of parts included above in parenthesis. The reasons assigned for this opinion may be reduced to the following two:

· Josephus must have mentioned Jesus, but he cannot have recognized Him as the Christ; hence part of our present Josephan text must be genuine, part must be interpolated.

· Again, the same conclusion follows from the fact that Origen knew a Josephan text about Jesus, but was not acquainted with our present reading; for, according to the great Alexandrian doctor, Josephus did not believe that Jesus was the Messias ("In Matth.", xiii, 55; Against Celsus I.47).

Whatever force these two arguments have is lost by the fact that Josephus did not write for the Jews but for the Romans; consequently, when he says, "This was the Christ", he does not necessarily imply that Jesus was the Christ considered by the Romans as the founder of the Christian religion.

Those who consider it to be completely genuine

The third class of scholars believe that the whole passage concerning Jesus, as it is found today in Josephus, is genuine. The main arguments for the genuineness of the Josephan passage are the following:

· First, all codices or manuscripts of Josephus's work contain the text in question; to maintain the spuriousness of the text, we must suppose that all the copies of Josephus were in the hands of Christians, and were changed in the same way.

· Second, it is true that neither Tertullian nor St. Justin makes use of Josephus's passage concerning Jesus; but this silence is probably due to the contempt with which the contemporary Jews regarded Josephus, and to the relatively little authority he had among the Roman readers. Writers of the age of Tertullian and Justin could appeal to living witnesses of the Apostolic tradition.

· Third, Eusebius ("Hist. Eccl"., I, xi; cf. "Dem. Ev.", III, v) Sozomen (Church History I.1), Niceph. (Hist. Eccl., I, 39), Isidore of Pelusium (Ep. IV, 225), St. Jerome (catal.script. eccles. xiii), Ambrose, Cassiodorus, etc., appeal to the testimony of Josephus; there must have been no doubt as to its authenticity at the time of these illustrious writers.

· Fourth, the complete silence of Josephus as to Jesus would have been a more eloquent testimony than we possess in his present text; this latter contains no statement incompatible with its Josephan authorship: the Roman reader needed the information that Jesus was the Christ, or the founder of the Christian religion; the wonderful works of Jesus and His Resurrection from the dead were so incessantly urged by the Christians that without these attributes the Josephan Jesus would hardly have been acknowledged as the founder of Christianity.

All this does not necessarily imply that Josephus regarded Jesus as the Jewish Messias; but, even if he had been convinced of His Messiahship, it does not follow that he would have become a Christian. A number of possible subterfuges might have supplied the Jewish historian with apparently sufficient reasons for not embracing Christianity.

Other Jewish sources

The historical character of Jesus Christ is also attested by the hostile Jewish literature of the subsequent centuries. His birth is ascribed to an illicit ("Acta Pilati" in Thilo, "Codex apocryph. N.T., I, 526; cf. Justin, "Apol.", I, 35), or even an adulterous, union of His parents (Origen, Against Celsus I.28 and I.32). The father's name is Panthera, a common soldier (Gemara "Sanhedrin", viii; "Schabbath", xii, cf. Eisenmenger, "Entdecktes Judenthum", I, 109; Schottgen, "Horae Hebraicae", II, 696; Buxtorf, "Lex. Chald.", Basle, 1639, 1459, Huldreich, "Sepher toledhoth yeshua hannaceri", Leyden, 1705). The last work in its final edition did not appear before the thirteenth century, so that it could give the Panthera myth in its most advanced form. Rosch is of opinion that the myth did not begin before the end of the first century.

The later Jewish writings show traces of acquaintance with the murder of the Holy Innocents (Wagenseil, "Confut. Libr. Toldoth", 15; Eisenmenger op. cit., I, 116; Schottgen, op. cit., II, 667), with the flight into Egypt (cf. Josephus, "Ant." XIII, xiii), with the stay of Jesus in the Temple at the age of twelve (Schottgen, op. cit., II, 696), with the call of the disciples ("Sanhedrin", 43a; Wagenseil, op. cit., 17; Schottgen, loc. cit., 713), with His miracles (Origen, Against Celsus II.48; Wagenseil, op. cit., 150; Gemara "Sanhedrin" fol. 17); "Schabbath", fol. 104b; Wagenseil, op. cit., 6, 7, 17), with His claim to be God (Origen, Against Celsus I.28; cf. Eisenmenger, op. cit., I, 152; Schottgen, loc. cit., 699) with His betrayal by Judas and His death (Origen, "Contra cels.", II, 9, 45, 68, 70; Buxtorf, op. cit., 1458; Lightfoot, "Hor. Heb.", 458, 490, 498; Eisenmenger, loc. cit., 185; Schottgen, loc. cit., 699 700; cf. "Sanhedrin", vi, vii). Celsus (Origen, Against Celsus II.55) tries to throw doubt on the Resurrection, while Toldoth (cf. Wagenseil, 19) repeats the Jewish fiction that the body of Jesus had been stolen from the sepulchre.

Christian sources

Among the Christian sources of the life of Jesus we need hardly mention the so called Agrapha and Apocrypha. For whether the Agrapha contain Logia of Jesus, or refer to incidents in His life, they are either highly uncertain or present only variations of the Gospel story. The chief value of the Apocrypha consists in their showing the infinite superiority of the Inspired Writings by contrasting the coarse and erroneous productions of the human mind with the simple and sublime truths written under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

Among the Sacred Books of the New Testament, it is especially the four Gospels and the four great Epistles of St. Paul that are of the highest importance for the construction of the life of Jesus.

The four great Pauline Epistles (Romans, Galatians, and First and Second Corinthinas) can hardly be overestimated by the student of Christ's life; they have at times been called the "fifth gospel"; their authenticity has never been assailed by serious critics; their testimony is also earlier than that of the Gospels, at least most of the Gospels; it is the more valuable because it is incidental and undesigned; it is the testimony of a highly intellectual and cultured writer, who had been the greatest enemy of Jesus, who writes within twenty-five years of the events which he relates. At the same time, these four great Epistles bear witness to all the most important facts in the life of Christ: His Davidic descent, His poverty, His Messiahship, His moral teaching, His preaching of the kingdom of God, His calling of the apostles, His miraculous power, His claims to be God, His betrayal, His institution of the Holy Eucharist, His passion, crucifixion, burial, resurrection, His repeated appearances (Romans 1:3-4; 5:11; 8:2-3; 8:32; 9:5; 15:8; Galatians 2:17; 3:13; 4:4; 5:21; 1 Corinthians 6:9; 13:4; etc.). However important the four great Epistles may be, the gospels are still more so. Not that any one of them offers a complete biography of Jesus, but they account for the origin of Christianity by the life of its Founder. Questions like the authenticity of the Gospels, the relation between the Synoptic Gospels, and the Fourth, the Synoptic problem, must be studied in the articles referring to these respective subjects.
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I'm not going to bother going through all that pasting, as the very first line said it all. You just couldn't resist citing the Bible as a 'manuscript', as well as "early writings of the Church" (which is essentially IS the early Bible, as are the Apocryphle Writings). You also cite Tacitus, which has just been shown to be have been faked. You didn't need to do a Pahu by flooding several posts because you couldn't fit all of what no-one's going to bother reading into a single post.

Personally I don't doubt the existence of Jesus, but the point is that there is no evidence to PROVE he ever existed, other than hearsay & folklore.
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FourPart;1482789 wrote: I'm not going to bother going through all that pasting, as the very first line said it all. You just couldn't resist citing the Bible as a 'manuscript', as well as "early writings of the Church" (which is essentially IS the early Bible, as are the Apocryphle Writings). You also cite Tacitus, which has just been shown to be have been faked. You didn't need to do a Pahu by flooding several posts because you couldn't fit all of what no-one's going to bother reading into a single post.

Personally I don't doubt the existence of Jesus, but the point is that there is no evidence to PROVE he ever existed, other than hearsay & folklore.


The point of it was to show you how OVERWHELMING the evidence is against you. The Bible IS a manuscript, but as you can clearly see, I don't need it to prove Jesus Christ's existence and I don't need Tacitus, whether fake or not as you can see. There is OVERWHELMING existence. It's YOUR fault if you choose to ignore the overwhelming evidence because it contains a couple of items that you personally have issue with.
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The bible is no more a manuscript proving the existence of Jesus than Grimm's Fairy Tales is prove of the existence of Troll Murdering Goats. If, however, there were independent evidence as to the existence of Troll Murdering Goats, that would be a different matter - But there isn't. There are, however, plenty of other story books which relate to Trolls & their Goat enemies, but they are all variants of the same source. Moriarty appears in several of the Sherlock Holmes stories. The separate stories, therefore, taken in the context of the Bible, verify his existence in real life. The point is that different variations of a story taken from the same doubtful source is no evidence of its veracity. The only manuscript that comes close to proving anything is Tacitus, and that has been proven to have been fraudulently edited.

At the beginning you said you could come up with dozens of manuscripts to support your claim. I asked which ones, emphasising that the Bible doesn't count as a manuscript. You promptly responded by pasting a whole load of rubbish from the Bible, claiming that the Bible was a manuscript, when I had already stated that it did not count, as it could not be used to verify itself. It's like someone putting a plea of Not Guilty in court, then when questioned on what proof he has of being not guilty, insists that he said he didn't do it when he was first arrested, then expecting that to be taken as corroborating evidence of his innocence. If, however, it had been documented that at the time of the alleged offence he had been some other Police Station at the opposite end of the country already had him under arrest for something entirely different THAT would be evidence. The Bible is HIS claim that he is innocent, because he said so earlier, and that it was recorded as having said so. An independent manuscript would be the other Police Station confirming that couldn't have done what he was accused of, because he was in the cells somewhere else at the time. If Tacitus hadn't been doctored, that might have come close to being some level of corroboration. But it was doctored & is, therefore, invalid, and demonstrates the levels that believers will go to in order to perpetuate a lie.
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xfrodobagginsx;1482842 wrote:
Have you read the Comments to that? Right from the start there is an absolute falsehood. He claims an argument to be 'proof'. As I've said to Pahu, I argue that my Fluffy Flying Pink Elephants exist. You cannot prove they do not exist. This is not proof that they do.
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Apparently Jesus showed up at a hotel the other day with a hand full of nails and asked whether they could put him up for the night.
Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental.
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Fuzzy;1482858 wrote: Apparently Jesus showed up at a hotel the other day with a hand full of nails and asked whether they could put him up for the night.


Well, if you will recall, there was no room at the Inn for Jesus.
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Heaven, Hell. Do they exist. The concept of hell came from the Mesopotamians in an attemp to try to understand evil. Jesus apparently spoke of the kingdom of God. He told us that the kingdom was withing.. These present two different answers to the . Generally the "kingdom" was to be on eearth. Some have mistaken that for some place not yet visisble. Jesus apparently said to the one thief on the cross that today he would be in paradise with me. ????.

I do not know if heaven exists but my ultimate trust in in the Divine so whatever is there will be OK.,
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Hell is the pain we are subjected to in life. Heaven is when it all shuts down.
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Hell is a major out of depression.
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out should have read bout
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Is it "The Road well travelled or the one few have travelled??
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Perhaps on a magic carpet. LOL
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Ted;1482891 wrote: Heaven, Hell. Do they exist. The concept of hell came from the Mesopotamians in an attemp to try to understand evil. Jesus apparently spoke of the kingdom of God. He told us that the kingdom was withing.. These present two different answers to the . Generally the "kingdom" was to be on eearth. Some have mistaken that for some place not yet visisble. Jesus apparently said to the one thief on the cross that today he would be in paradise with me. ????.

I do not know if heaven exists but my ultimate trust in in the Divine so whatever is there will be OK.,


Jesus warned of hell, more than He spoke about Heaven. If you believe the Bible is God's Word as I do, it warns of hell and speaks of Heaven. Jesus will one day set up His Kingdom here on Earth. At that time, all of the suffering will cease on earth and those who reject Him as Lord and Savior will be judged.
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xfrodobagginsx;1482973 wrote: Jesus warned of hell, more than He spoke about Heaven. If you believe the Bible is God's Word as I do, it warns of hell and speaks of Heaven. Jesus will one day set up His Kingdom here on Earth. At that time, all of the suffering will cease on earth and those who reject Him as Lord and Savior will be judged.


Still trying to scare people into believing the unbelievable? I don't mind personally, but when you guys do it to little kids, I draw the line and call it child abuse. You got away with it for thousands of years, but it's time to stop now.
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The Ultimate Proof of Creation by Dr. Jason Lisle:



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A little about the veracity of Jason Lisle...

Another passel of creationist lies - Bad Astronomy : Bad Astronomy
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Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental.
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What some of these people do to a religious faith is in my opinion immoral.
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Why is that, Ted?
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flopstock you are correct about diversity. The forum survives on that diversity. My understanding of the Christian faith is modern and liberal and not appreciated by all Christians. So what I love it.
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fuzzy. I consider making promises one cannot keep to be immoral. The idea of a person trying to convert a person to Christianity on their death bed is an attempt to use fear to make a conversion when that person has enough on her/his mind. Using coercion and fear to make oneself feel better is in my view immoral. The Christian faith was founded on both justice and compassion and coercion and fear have no place in either. Consider Fred Phelps in the US, He is a person who pickets the funerals of GLBT people. Christianity??? not in my view. My view says that is evil. The same for all the anti-gay crap.
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Got you now, Ted. I thought you meant it is immoral to poke fun at religion. I'm sure a god gave us our sense of humor, but it probably was not the god of the old testament. He was too busy killing his creations.
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Fuzzy;1483247 wrote: Got you now, Ted. I thought you meant it is immoral to poke fun at religion. I'm sure a god gave us our sense of humor, but it probably was not the god of the old testament. He was too busy killing his creations.


The Bible explains why those who are not Born Again hate God:



Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Carnal=Fleshly or unregenerated, not born again)
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Fuzzy;1483247 wrote: Got you now, Ted. I thought you meant it is immoral to poke fun at religion. I'm sure a god gave us our sense of humor, but it probably was not the god of the old testament. He was too busy killing his creations.


God is more concerned about saving our souls than jokes I believe.
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Being 'Born Again' just implies he didn't do the job properly the first time round.
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xfrodobagginsx;1483362 wrote: God is more concerned about saving our souls than jokes I believe.


God couldn't care less about our souls. That's if there is a god and souls. I have a feeling they only exist in certain people's imagination.
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Fuzzy;1483440 wrote: God couldn't care less about our souls. That's if there is a god and souls. I have a feeling they only exist in certain people's imagination.


God wouldn't have sent His only Son to be mocked, ridiculed and DIE if He didn't care about us. Would you be willing to send Your son to die for people who hate you? God did that for us. What Love He has for us.
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xfrodobagginsx;1483590 wrote: Would you be willing to send Your son to die for people who hate you?


Of course not. Can you think of a more stupid thing to do?
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That's just your interpretation on that. Just where does it say that's what his intentions were? By that I don't mean other interpretations from the Bible. Where does it quote God saying that was the reason? For that matter, where does it quote Jesus as saying that? By the time it had happened he wasn't around any more to get any quotes from.

You are saying that his reason was philanthropic, for the benefit of all Mankind.

I say that (hypothetically assuming that he was the son of some God) it was the maliscious act of an abusive Father who simply got pleasure out of watching people suffer, as has been demonstrated in so many other places in the Bible.

Now, the difference between these 2 interpretations is that I have provided backup to WHY my interpretation is more likely in the form of precedence. Yours has absolutely no foundation for the claim.
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First of al there is no one correct interpretation to any verse in the bible OT and NT "Rev Dr. Rabbi R. Daum of the Vancouver School of Theology. The atonement theology has on very large problem what kind of God would be so angry and petulant as to demand a blood sacrifice of His only Son? One that we should praise and honour. I think not;
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I accept that God is an experiential reality.
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Ted;1483666 wrote: I accept that God is an experiential reality.
As is the enjoyment of Music or Art. They are thing that the person experiencing them know to exist in their own way, but to explain what it is or why a particular piece affects them in a certain way is a total impossibility. The use of metaphor is the only thing that comes close.

I have Aspergers, and I have great difficulty in understanding certain situations, so I often cope by closing my eyes & visualising things in pictures. The thing is that they can often be the same pictures, except with different overtones. How I interpret things like that is impossible to explain fully, but it is real to me, and I understand it fully.
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What do you base your beliefs upon?
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xfrodobagginsx;1483894 wrote: What do you base your beliefs upon?
Mainly on what I can see, hear, touch, feel, smell, etc. Then on logically based conclusions. Logic says that some intelligent life form, with male human features existed before time and suddenly decided to create the heavens & the earth over a period of 6 days. I therefore believe there to be no God.
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xfrodobagginsx;1483894 wrote: What do you base your beliefs upon?


I can only believe what makes sense to me. The book of lies and religion make no sense whatsoever.
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Fuzzy;1483929 wrote: I can only believe what makes sense to me. The book of lies and religion make no sense whatsoever.


What makes you so sure it's a book of lies? It's supported by secular History I hope you realize.
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FourPart;1483912 wrote: Mainly on what I can see, hear, touch, feel, smell, etc. Then on logically based conclusions. Logic says that some intelligent life form, with male human features existed before time and suddenly decided to create the heavens & the earth over a period of 6 days. I therefore believe there to be no God.


This is not a logical argument. You say logic says that an intelligent life fore existed before time and decided to created the heaven and the earth, then you say that you don't believe in God. These two statements are contradictory.
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xfrodobagginsx;1483953 wrote: What makes you so sure it's a book of lies? It's supported by secular History I hope you realize.


Like what? The ark, walking on water, virgin birth, talking snake, eternal hell fire, etc etc? I truly believe the bible is a book of fairy tales and lies. I can't prove it to you, same as you can't prove it isn't so, but I have a lot of faith in what I believe.
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Fuzzy;1483962 wrote: Like what? The ark, walking on water, virgin birth, talking snake, eternal hell fire, etc etc? I truly believe the bible is a book of fairy tales and lies. I can't prove it to you, same as you can't prove it isn't so, but I have a lot of faith in what I believe.


Don't forget about the Eyewitnesses who recorded it, the historical writings that support the eyewitness writings , the hundreds of fulfilled prophecies of Jesus's first coming fulfilled in Scripture, the fact that the disciples were willing to give up their lives for the faith (they wouldn't have done that had He not really risen from the dead) and the explosion of Christianity shortly after the resurrection.
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toricity of the Bible. Midrash is a method of interpretation and in ancient times also a method of writing using grThe Bible first of all is not a history book. If one really wants to understand it one must become familiar with "midrash". One should also look at it through Jewish eyes. Historical research by and large does not support the historicity of the Bible stories. Midrash was a form of both interpretation and writing back in those days. Some examples there is absolutely no evidence for the Exodus as described, Jericho had been destroyed hundreds of years before Joshua ever got there, David existed we know since an inscription has been found listting the words "House of David. No evidence exists for a large kingdom under his rule. More likely he was a local tribal warlord. As for prophesy: It was not written down for some distant time the the time in which it was written.It was not about some future event After the profound experience of Jesus as a human being they began to believe he was divine. They searched the OT for such indications and then appended them to him. For instance the story said he had to be born in Bethlehem but in reality his very name shows where he was born "Jesus of Nazareth" just as Mary Magdalene was Mary from Magdela.. They wrote the stories of Jesus to fit the prophesyas they saw it. Nor is the Bible in and of itself "The Word of God" It becomes for some Christians the word of God because God speaks to them through those very human words. The Bible was witten by Jews with one possible exception Luke and Acts. "The Word of God" does not belong to a book it belongs to the risen one and no other. Thus the Bible has in fact become an object of idolotry. Not good. Crossan, Borg, Spong, Kung and a host of other s
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The missing part says that the historicathe historicity of the Bible probably should ha e added the stories.l research does not support
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Trying to write to fast. The historical research does not support the Bible as a history book.
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xfrodobagginsx;1484016 wrote: Don't forget about the Eyewitnesses who recorded it, the historical writings that support the eyewitness writings , the hundreds of fulfilled prophecies of Jesus's first coming fulfilled in Scripture, the fact that the disciples were willing to give up their lives for the faith (they wouldn't have done that had He not really risen from the dead) and the explosion of Christianity shortly after the resurrection.


Eyewitnesses recorded it? I don't think so. A bunch of people with an agenda made it all up. Religion started when the first con man met the first idiot.

Too many contradictions and very little, if any, evidence.
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