M J Autopsy

shelbell · Post by **shelbell** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:43 am

Lon;1213420 wrote: Had your husband been under the care of a doctor or had he seen a doctor recently? Was he taking any medications? Not listing a cause of death or stating that the cause of death is undetermined could be considered an attempt to protect someone.

Yes to all..but they hadn't made any changes to anything and nothing was life threatening.

Damn Lon, you are the first person that has mentioned protecting someone...that really pops some questions into my head....

shelbell · Post by **shelbell** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:51 am

farmer giles;1213429 wrote: my thoughts are with you bellyshelly :-6:-6

Thanks buttjim. :wah:

shelbell · Post by **shelbell** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:52 am

Odie;1213433 wrote: and that decision was yours and you made the right one sis.:-4

Thanks sis...:-4

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:55 am

shelbell;1213434 wrote: Yes to all..but they hadn't made any changes to anything and nothing was life threatening.

Damn Lon, you are the first person that has mentioned protecting someone...that really pops some questions into my head....

Consider contacting a Mal Practice attorney by phone and explain your concerns. There should be no charge for a initial consult. I find the fact that there was no hint as to the cause of death, highly suspicious. Don't contact just any attorney.

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:02 pm

"Undetermined" on a death certificate in most cases is used until the autopsy is completed then they change it. This happened to us when my father died sitting in a chair on the patio. When they finished the autopsy they changed it to "Electrolyte Imbalance." There are cases where they really can't determine cause of death as there is no 1 defining cause.

As Lon suggested I would contacting an Attorney as well. Your loss is profound you need an answer for closure.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:04 pm

This is taken from the "National Association Of Medical Examiners"

When the circumstances surrounding death are NOT consistent with SIDS, and investigation does not disclose a reasonably probable cause of death, the following cause-of-death statement may be used:

Part I

A. Unexpected and Undetermined Cause

Due to, or as a consequence of:

B. Part II. OTHER SIGNIFICANT CONDITIONS: Conditions contributing to death but not resulting in the underlying cause of death in Part I

shelbell · Post by **shelbell** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:09 pm

Lon;1213447 wrote: Consider contacting a Mal Practice attorney by phone and explain your concerns. There should be no charge for a initial consult. I find the fact that there was no hint as to the cause of death, highly suspicious. Don't contact just any attorney.

Thanks Lon, I will seriously give this some consideration. I have a couple of attorney friends that can point me in the right direction.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:16 pm

Carla is right----------a Death Certificate is required by the cemetery before they can inter remains and sometimes burial occurs before the results of the autopsy can be determined. You want to see if there was an amended Death Certificate by contacting the Coroner's office.

shelbell · Post by **shelbell** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:18 pm

CARLA;1213450 wrote: "Undetermined" on a death certificate in most cases is used until the autopsy is completed then they change it. This happened to us when my father died sitting in a chair on the patio. When they finished the autopsy they changed it to "Electrolyte Imbalance." There are cases where they really can't determine cause of death as there is no 1 defining cause.

As Lon suggested I would contacting an Attorney as well. Your loss is profound you need an answer for closure.

Lon;1213453 wrote: This is taken from the "National Association Of Medical Examiners"

When the circumstances surrounding death are NOT consistent with SIDS, and investigation does not disclose a reasonably probable cause of death, the following cause-of-death statement may be used:

Part I

A. Unexpected and Undetermined Cause

Due to, or as a consequence of:

B. Part II. OTHER SIGNIFICANT CONDITIONS: Conditions contributing to death but not resulting in the underlying cause of death in Part I

The exact words on the certificate (I just looked) are "unable to determine". There has got to be more to this than they are letting me know. I've always felt that.

shelbell · Post by **shelbell** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:20 pm

Lon;1213458 wrote: Carla is right----------a Death Certificate is required by the cemetery before they can inter remains and sometimes burial occurs before the results of the autopsy can be determined. You want to see if there was an amended Death Certificate by contacting the Coroner's office.

On the original certificate for burial, the cause was left blank. They didn't add the undetermined until almost 12 weeks later. The "undetermined" WAS the amended death certificate.

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:29 pm

Shelbell I took this right of the Medical Examiners site here. As I said undetermined can be used when it is impossible to determine cause of death after thorough investigation. Its rare but it is used.

[QUOTE]Undetermined – “used when the information pointing to one manner of death is no more compelling than one or more other competing manners of death when all available information is considered.

This is usually an interim classification that indicates a level of uncertainty about the circumstances surrounding the death. This classification is usually changed once the results of the autopsy are received. Undetermined is intended for cases in which it is impossible to establish, with reasonable medical certainty, the circumstances of death after thorough investigation. [/QUOTE]

shelbell · Post by **shelbell** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:37 pm

CARLA;1213469 wrote: Shelbell I took this right of the Medical Examiners site here. As I said undetermined can be used when it is impossible to determine cause of death after thorough investigation. Its rare but it is used.

If they can't determine the cause, I think they should just put "natural causes" on there. Undetermined leaves so many questions and doesn't allow the much needed closure. It seems almost cruel to use this term.

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:46 pm

I couldn't agree more we weren't happy when we saw in on my Dad's death certificate but it was before the autopsy was completed then they amended it. I know you pain with this and hope you can get closure at some point, your right it is cruel.

[QUOTE]If they can't determine the cause, I think they should just put "natural causes" on there. Undetermined leaves so many questions and doesn't allow the much needed closure. It seems almost cruel to use this term.[/QUOTE]

shelbell · Post by **shelbell** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:54 pm

CARLA;1213476 wrote: I couldn't agree more we weren't happy when we saw in on my Dad's death certificate but it was before the autopsy was completed then they amended it. I know you pain with this and hope you can get closure at some point, your right it is cruel.

Thanks Carla. I really appreciate your kindness and understanding.:-4

along-for-the-ride · Post by **along-for-the-ride** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:48 pm

shelbell;1213472 wrote: If they can't determine the cause, I think they should just put "natural causes" on there. Undetermined leaves so many questions and doesn't allow the much needed closure. It seems almost cruel to use this term.

I agree with you, shellbell.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:55 pm

Lon;1213447 wrote: Consider contacting a Mal Practice attorney by phone and explain your concerns. There should be no charge for a initial consult. I find the fact that there was no hint as to the cause of death, highly suspicious. Don't contact just any attorney. You may be interested in this guy who went undetected for years.

Harold Shipman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As a family GP, he got away with over 200 deaths without question.

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:57 pm

if a coroner doesn't know the reason/reasons... automatically another coroner should consult.

It makes him appear very unprofessional as if he has no idea what he is doing.

undermined....is not an answer.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:19 pm

shelbell;1213472 wrote: If they can't determine the cause, I think they should just put "natural causes" on there. Undetermined leaves so many questions and doesn't allow the much needed closure. It seems almost cruel to use this term.

There is no such thing as a death from Natural Causes-------what's natural? You die of something. No one dies from old age. Something will cause the heart to stop, and that something can and should be determined. A clot, a hemorrhage?

ZAP · Post by **ZAP** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:30 pm

Lon;1213923 wrote: There is no such thing as a death from Natural Causes-------what's natural? You die of something. No one dies from old age. Something will cause the heart to stop, and that something can and should be determined. A clot, a hemorrhage?

I agree. Something causes the heart to stop beating.

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:03 pm

shelbell;1213472 wrote: If they can't determine the cause, I think they should just put "natural causes" on there. Undetermined leaves so many questions and doesn't allow the much needed closure. It seems almost cruel to use this term.

Sis, what does natural cause really mean?

It would have to specify.

The same as my mom, she can die from Alzheimer's, but it would have to specify why....

People who die of old age......something had to make them die, heart failure, kidney failure, blood clot etc.

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:45 am

just started watching his memorial.....how sad to see the hurst.

Post by **spot** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:10 pm

Odie;1214171 wrote: just started watching his memorial.....how sad to see the hurst.

My art teacher at school drove around in a hearse. Lousy fuel consumption, top marks for style though.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:17 pm

spot;1214351 wrote: My art teacher at school drove around in a hearse. Lousy fuel consumption, top marks for style though.
My father was a car dealer and no 'Arthur daley' thankyou very much. All brand new cars arriving at the showroom had to be test driven and all the kids at school thought we were incredibly wealthy as went to school in a differnt top of the range car every week. One week when i was about 9 yrs old, dad had to test drive a hearse for a week. what fun that was. It was in the days when folk doffed their caps at a passing hearse and we'd pull faces at them back. I can still recall the looks of astonshment on their faces. Even more fun was having one of dad's coaches all to ourselves to play in.

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:17 pm

spot;1214351 wrote: My art teacher at school drove around in a hearse. Lousy fuel consumption, top marks for style though.

We had a couple of them at our classic car show Saturday nights, the old hursts .....all decked up and spooky, cool they were!