Life after death? This can mean heaven or hell. A true story...

illuminati · Post by **illuminati** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:09 pm

From a friend:

My Grandfather on my Father's side passed away when I was very young. My Step-Grandfather since then had passed away this Summer.. At family gatherings, we always talk about him. He was a very interesting and unique man. He was close friends with many popular people. Frank Sinatra and the rest of the Rat Pack, for example.. He gambled at the BIG tables in Las Vegas. He was treated with great respect wherever he went. He never worked a day in his life, soughta speak...

Well, after Thanksgiving dinner, my Grandmother and I had our usual talks.. But today, things were a little different. She's having an easier time talking about his last moments...

She spoke about how he was in great pain and needed a machine which fed air into his lungs to remain alive... As things began to get worse and worse, he tried removing the air-piece from his face but my Grandmother, at his side, would keep putting it back on. It was only later that she realized he was trying to say he's had enough...

This went on back and forth for awhile.. Unfortunately, he was falling in and out of concienceness as his heart had begun to slow down and stop occasionally..

Keep in mind, now - that this was a very, very tough man. He was never afraid of anyone or anything. He was a bodyguard of a very, very popular person. He'd taken gunshots before...

I've heard so many instances of how people who died momenterally would come back to life to say they'd "seen a light - a tunnel of light" and how "an angel said it wasn't yet my time". This was very different...

The last time he came to for a moment, he had a petrified look in his eyes. He pulled my Grandmother close and said, "They're trying to get me. They're not human. I have to get out of here!" After saying this, in his horrible condition, he tried to get out of bed...

And that was the end...

My Grandmother told me he saw the Gates of Hell.. Until now, I've never had such a positive feeling that what we do in this life can certainly affect the afterlife.. I always try to do what's best and what I think is right.. I hope all of you do your best, as well, to live good, honest lives...

__________________

illuminati · Post by **illuminati** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:30 pm

Who here is familiar with Melvin Morse?

Melvin works at Children's Hospital in Seattle, WA and has done a large amount of research on this subject:

http://www.melvinmorse.com/light.htm

You usually hear about the the typical bright light scenario. What intrigues me is the implication that many (the majority?) of people describe a hellish Near Death Experience.

An earlier cardiologist once reported he found that 80% of NDE's were bad, and only 20% were the happy hopeful ones.

Thoughts? Disturbing? Most people, like myself, were really only aware of the bright light scenarios.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:21 pm

illuminati wrote: I've heard so many instances of how people who died momenterally would come back to life to say they'd "seen a light - a tunnel of light" and how "an angel said it wasn't yet my time". This was very different...

he saw the Gates of Hell.. Until now, I've never had such a positive feeling that what we do in this life can certainly affect the afterlife.. I always try to do what's best and what I think is right.. I hope all of you do your best, as well, to live good, honest lives...

I have also heard many such instances. Presently I am reading a book in Hindi the title of which will read in English as 'Science of re-birth'. I will post if I find anything useful in the book.

The latter part of your message is very encouraging. We always try to do good as Good acts take us to God, and it makes our life good and honest. I hope all FG members share your views.

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 2:44 pm

There is a wonderful film called "What Dreams May Come" with Robin Williams in which he dies before his wife and after their two children. The grief overwhelms his wife and she kills herself. Robin must find her in hell and bring her back. In this film and in my personal belief, 'hell' is the creation of your own mind. She is so convinced that this hellish world is real that the danger to Robin is getting sucked into her belief and losing his own sanity.

The greatest prison is one's own mind.

A dream is a message from the soul and a vision is a more intense experience of the same thing. But sometimes dreams can seem more real than the waking state. I think that your grandfather will resolve his nightmare, if he hasn't already, and move to a more enlightened place...you can certainly still speak to him and offer him guidance if you feel he is not moving on. Even if you can't hear him, (your grandmother might), your thoughts of love and wishes for peace will surely reach him.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 2:59 pm

illuminati wrote: From a friend:

My Grandfather on my Father's side passed away when I was very young. My Step-Grandfather since then had passed away this Summer.. At family gatherings, we always talk about him. He was a very interesting and unique man. He was close friends with many popular people. Frank Sinatra and the rest of the Rat Pack, for example.. He gambled at the BIG tables in Las Vegas. He was treated with great respect wherever he went. He never worked a day in his life, soughta speak...

Well, after Thanksgiving dinner, my Grandmother and I had our usual talks.. But today, things were a little different. She's having an easier time talking about his last moments...

She spoke about how he was in great pain and needed a machine which fed air into his lungs to remain alive... As things began to get worse and worse, he tried removing the air-piece from his face but my Grandmother, at his side, would keep putting it back on. It was only later that she realized he was trying to say he's had enough...

This went on back and forth for awhile.. Unfortunately, he was falling in and out of concienceness as his heart had begun to slow down and stop occasionally..

Keep in mind, now - that this was a very, very tough man. He was never afraid of anyone or anything. He was a bodyguard of a very, very popular person. He'd taken gunshots before...

I've heard so many instances of how people who died momenterally would come back to life to say they'd "seen a light - a tunnel of light" and how "an angel said it wasn't yet my time". This was very different...

The last time he came to for a moment, he had a petrified look in his eyes. He pulled my Grandmother close and said, "They're trying to get me. They're not human. I have to get out of here!" After saying this, in his horrible condition, he tried to get out of bed...

And that was the end...

My Grandmother told me he saw the Gates of Hell.. Until now, I've never had such a positive feeling that what we do in this life can certainly affect the afterlife.. I always try to do what's best and what I think is right.. I hope all of you do your best, as well, to live good, honest lives...

__________________

I don't go along with these wonder catholic ideas of heaven and hell. Load of crap. I'll go along with PLAZUL on this one.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 5:34 am

Religion is about mind control. Control of the masses by a cult or church. We see this in our major christian organizations and Islam.

Hate, Torture, Suffering and Death is their ingredients of Faith in a Surpreme Human God.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 6:59 am

capt_buzzard wrote: Religion is about mind control. Control of the masses by a cult or church. We see this in our major christian organizations and Islam.

Hate, Torture, Suffering and Death is their ingredients of Faith in a Surpreme Human God.

Yes one can say that religion is about mind control. But this is self control.

Controlling masses through hate, torture, suffering and death is not religion. If it is said that a particular religion preaches this then it is a wrong interpretation of teachings of that religion.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:57 am

All this heaven & Hell stuff. Crap. Another piece of junk food thoughts for the religious masses.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Sun Nov 07, 2004 6:20 am

capt_buzzard wrote: All this heaven & Hell stuff. Crap. Another piece of junk food thoughts for the religious masses.

It is a thought. Might be junk food for some but fresh food for others.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun Nov 07, 2004 11:14 am

Oh, Capt. Buzzard! You and your silly one liners!

A more interesting comment would be a comparative analysis of how this discussion could be likened to junk food...ie) it is bad for us in some way, it is addictive or fattening,... self indulgent perhaps?

A weed to some is a flower to others. Meaning: explain why this thought may be a weed.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Sun Nov 07, 2004 1:54 pm

Well that's the Junk Food being fed. And they buy it all the time. :-2

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Sun Nov 07, 2004 8:31 pm

koan wrote: Oh, Capt. Buzzard! You and your silly one liners!

A more interesting comment would be a comparative analysis of how this discussion could be likened to junk food...ie) it is bad for us in some way, it is addictive or fattening,... self indulgent perhaps?

A weed to some is a flower to others. Meaning: explain why this thought may be a weed.

No dear, Capt. Buzzard's one liners are not silly. They are of course sometimes difficult to understand. But it is only my opinion.

I will be looking for Capt. Buzzard's answer to your quote, which is a beauty - "A weed to some is a flower to others". Let him explain why this thought is a weed.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun Nov 07, 2004 8:50 pm

Suresh Gupta wrote: No dear, Capt. Buzzard's one liners are not silly. They are of course sometimes difficult to understand. But it is only my opinion.

You are right. I mean only that it is silly he doesn't always grace us with the deeper thoughts that I know he is capable of and which would add more of his "secret spice" to the meal.

I will be looking for Capt. Buzzard's answer to your quote, which is a beauty - "A weed to some is a flower to others". Let him explain why this thought is a weed.

I look forward to it also. That is the main point of the message.

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:42 pm

koan wrote:

The greatest prison is one's own mind.

:)

Wow koan ............. we have a common agreement.

In my opinion,

I think that when you pass away, all that you have is your 'soul' or mind just as you state.

So what is that? Soul..or.. Mind

I think it is MEMORY. That is ALL we have (or will ever have). I believe when we pass on all we have is this soul or memory and that is it. We do not need a body.

If you have lived a fairly clean life and tried to do right you will dwell in happiness. If you have not made amends and lived a not so giving or careing life, you will dwell on all your faults and short comings.

If you have killed or commited atrocities you will not be able to get past those and live in a self hell of your own making.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:00 pm

Let me reproduce here some of my messages posted on another forum related to this topic:

"Soul never dies. Hinduism teaches us that there in no beginning and end for the soul. Water can not wet it. Fire can not burn it. Wind can not blow it. No sharp weapon can cut it. As a person discards old clothes and wear new clothes, so is the soul discards one physical body and houses the other."

"To say that, "it is the body which never dies", can at best be an extension of the scientific theory that matter never ceases to exist. It may take a different form. A human body is made up of 'Panchatatva' and after death it goes back to 'Panchtatva'."

"The Atman (Soul) separates from the God and has to traverse across the time to again reach Him. This journey is performed in a body. The body performs good and bad acts, and the result of these acts determines the path of the journey and the time it is required to take to reach its ultimate destination. Good acts creates a smoother path and lessen the time. Bad acts turn the path in to a difficult path and stretches the time. The cycle is unending. One may call it reincarnation. A smoother path can be termed as heaven and a difficult path as hell. The ultimate power which has a control over this unending activity can be given a name, God."

"When asked 'is there life after death', a Swami replied, "if you want to know about death, you must go to people who are dead or you can meet me after my death". About life he said "I have a rich experience of life and how to add vitality to it"."

"I understand the concept of body and soul in the following manner:

Existence of body and soul are interdependent. Body needs a soul to be live, and soul needs a body to manifest itself. The body can be of any living being, human, animal, bird or any other living creature. Body perishes when soul leaves it, and the remains are assimilated by Panch Bhoot, from where the body came. Soul leaves a body and finds another body. Like a person selects his clothes before discarding born clothes, soul selects another body before it leaves a body.

Body is a tangible object which can be seen and touched. Soul is intangible, which can not be seen and touched. Its presence can however be felt in a living body and absence can be felt when the body becomes non-living.

A person throughout his life collects good and bad points (paap and punya) through his Karma. When the person dies, these paap and punya goes with the soul. The life of the new body in which soul has now manifested, is decided based on the paap and punya carried by the soul from the old body. The individuality is carried forward from one body to another body. The attributes of individuality in the current life only are known to the person in that body but with ime as life progresses. Attributes from other births are not known. This explains, what people call as good Bhagya (destiny) or bad Bhagya. No two persons are born with same Bhagya. God has given a special favour to the human beings to write their own destiny in the current life. The fruits of these good efforts will be enjoyed by the person in whose body the soul will manifest after the death of this body. Of course some fruits may be enjoyed in this body also, but one can not be sure whether these fruits are due to good efforts in this life or previous life(s).

This process goes on till the time the soul qualifies to be one with the Parmatman."

"A body is the combination of Panch Bhoot - Prithvi, Jal, Vayu, Aakash and Agni. After a body dies, it is assimilated in these Panch Bhoot. You are right, it sounds much more peaceful and 'nature-like'. It is the soul in the body which goes in anther body, which can be of a human being, an animal, a bird or any other living creature.

The idea of heaven and hell - there are no separate hell or heaven. Everybody experiences them during his or her life. Due to his good Karmas in this and previous life(s), new body will experience heaven, and due to bad Karma the new body will experience hell. As a person is engaged in both good and bad Karma in life, the body experiences both heaven and hell in a single life itself.

A normal human being has the knowledge of one life only, and that too is made known to him at different times as the life progresses. He has no knwledge of his previous births. Similarly he has no advanced knowledge of his coming births.

Body comes from nature and goes back to nature. It is an endless cycle."

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:36 am

BTS wrote: If you have lived a fairly clean life and tried to do right you will dwell in happiness. If you have not made amends and lived a not so giving or careing life, you will dwell on all your faults and short comings.

If you have killed or commited atrocities you will not be able to get past those and live in a self hell of your own making.
But if you didn't care in life, why would you care in death?

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:34 pm

Suresh Gupta:-6

Thanks for an extremely interesting post on life, death and the soul. It is most interesting.

Shalom

Ted:-6

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:13 pm

Accountable wrote: But if you didn't care in life, why would you care in death?

I think that is why I do care.........

If not then what else is there after death.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 4:49 am

BTS wrote: I think that is why I do care.........

If not then what else is there after death.
Sorry, i didn't make my point. I meant the generic you. I should have said "But if one didn't care in life, why would one care in death?"

DayDreamer · Post by **DayDreamer** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:18 am

My Grandmother told me he saw the Gates of Hell..

That must of really frightend your grandmother,as that was the last words your grandfather said.

KINGDAVID · Post by **KINGDAVID** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:07 pm

illuminati, this was a very interesting expierience your grandfather went threw. but to tell you the truth, there is no hell, to which people are eternaly tormented. ill explain-

Definition: The word Ã¢â‚¬Å“hellÃ¢â‚¬Â is found in many Bible translations. In the same verses other translations read Ã¢â‚¬Å“the grave,Ã¢â‚¬Â Ã¢â‚¬Å“the world of the dead,Ã¢â‚¬Â and so forth. Other Bibles simply transliterate the original-language words that are sometimes rendered Ã¢â‚¬Å“hellÃ¢â‚¬Â; that is, they express them with the letters of our alphabet but leave the words untranslated. What are those words? The Hebrew sheÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ohlÃ‚Â´ and its Greek equivalent haiÃ‚Â´des, which refer, not to an individual burial place, but to the common grave of dead mankind; also the Greek geÃ‚Â´enÃ‚Â·na, which is used as a symbol of eternal destruction. However, both in Christendom and in many non-Christian religions it is taught that hell is a place inhabited by demons and where the wicked, after death, are punished (and some believe that this is with torment)

Does the Bible indicate whether the dead experience pain?

Eccl. 9:5,*10: Ã¢â‚¬Å“The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all .*.*. All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol,* the place to which you are going.Ã¢â‚¬Â (If they are conscious of nothing, they obviously feel no pain.)

Ps. 146:4: Ã¢â‚¬Å“His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts* do perish.Ã¢â‚¬Â Does the Bible indicate that the soul survives the death of the body?

Ezek. 18:4: Ã¢â‚¬Å“The soul* that is sinningÃ¢â‚¬â€it itself will die.Ã¢â‚¬Â

Ã¢â‚¬Å“The concept of Ã¢â‚¬Ëœsoul,Ã¢â‚¬â„¢ meaning a purely spiritual, immaterial reality, separate from the Ã¢â‚¬Ëœbody,Ã¢â‚¬â„¢*.*.*. does not exist in*the Bible.

Ã¢â‚¬Å“Although the Hebrew word nefesh [in the Hebrew Scriptures] is frequently translated as Ã¢â‚¬Ëœsoul,Ã¢â‚¬â„¢ it would be inaccurate to read into it a Greek meaning. Nefesh .*.*. is never conceived of as operating separately from the body. In the New Testament the Greek word psyche is often translated as Ã¢â‚¬ËœsoulÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ but again should not be readily understood to have the meaning the word had for the Greek philosophers. It usually means Ã¢â‚¬Ëœlife,Ã¢â‚¬â„¢ or Ã¢â‚¬Ëœvitality,Ã¢â‚¬â„¢ or, at times, Ã¢â‚¬Ëœthe self.Ã¢â‚¬â„¢Ã¢â‚¬ÂÃ¢â‚¬â€The Encyclopedia Americana (1977), Vol. 25, p. 236.

What sort of people go to the Bible hell?

Does the Bible say that the wicked go to hell?

Ps. 9:17, KJ: Ã¢â‚¬Å“The wicked shall be turned into hell,* and all the nations that forget God.Ã¢â‚¬Â

Does the Bible also say that upright people go to hell?

Job 14:13, Dy: Ã¢â‚¬Å“[Job prayed:] Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell,* and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt remember me?Ã¢â‚¬Â (God himself said that Job was Ã¢â‚¬Å“a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad.Ã¢â‚¬ÂÃ¢â‚¬â€Job 1:8.)

Acts 2:25-27, KJ: Ã¢â‚¬Å“David speaketh concerning him [Jesus Christ], .*.*. Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,* neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.Ã¢â‚¬Â (The fact that God did not Ã¢â‚¬Å“leaveÃ¢â‚¬Â Jesus in hell implies that Jesus was in hell, or Hades, at least for a time, does it not?)

Does anyone ever get out of the Bible hell?

Rev. 20:13,*14, KJ: Ã¢â‚¬Å“The sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell* delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.Ã¢â‚¬Â (So the dead will be delivered from hell. Notice also that hell is not the same as the lake of fire but will be cast into the lake of fire.)

*** rs p. 170 - p. 171 Hell ***

Why is there confusion as to what the Bible says about hell?

Ã¢â‚¬Å“Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.Ã¢â‚¬ÂÃ¢â‚¬â€The Encyclopedia Americana (1942), Vol. XIV, p. 81.

Translators have allowed their personal beliefs to color their work instead of being consistent in their rendering of the original-language words. For example: (1) The King James Version rendered sheÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ohlÃ‚Â´ as Ã¢â‚¬Å“hell,Ã¢â‚¬Â Ã¢â‚¬Å“the grave,Ã¢â‚¬Â and Ã¢â‚¬Å“the pitÃ¢â‚¬Â; haiÃ‚Â´des is therein rendered both Ã¢â‚¬Å“hellÃ¢â‚¬Â and Ã¢â‚¬Å“graveÃ¢â‚¬Â; geÃ‚Â´enÃ‚Â·na is also translated Ã¢â‚¬Å“hell.Ã¢â‚¬Â (2)*TodayÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s English Version transliterates haiÃ‚Â´des as Ã¢â‚¬Å“HadesÃ¢â‚¬Â and also renders it as Ã¢â‚¬Å“hellÃ¢â‚¬Â and Ã¢â‚¬Å“the world of the dead.Ã¢â‚¬Â But besides rendering Ã¢â‚¬Å“hellÃ¢â‚¬Â from haiÃ‚Â´des it uses that same translation for geÃ‚Â´enÃ‚Â·na. (3)*The Jerusalem Bible transliterates haiÃ‚Â´des six times, but in other passages it translates it as Ã¢â‚¬Å“hellÃ¢â‚¬Â and as Ã¢â‚¬Å“the underworld.Ã¢â‚¬Â It also translates geÃ‚Â´enÃ‚Â·na as Ã¢â‚¬Å“hell,Ã¢â‚¬Â as it does haiÃ‚Â´des in two instances. Thus the exact meanings of the original-language words have been obscured.

i have much more information on hell, if anyone wants to know the truth about hell, and what it means, let me know, ill surely give you the answers, from the bible. thank you, and i hope this msg brought you some comfort illuminati. thanks have a good day.....

Post by **spot** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:19 pm

KINGDAVID wrote: if anyone wants to know the truth about hell, and what it means, let me know, ill surely give you the answersHow is it that some people can feel so certain about an issue of which they have no personal experience? Why is it that the existence of a Holy Text is enough to provide certainty? You're describing your own inner beliefs, you're not describing an external reality. If I were as certain that reincarnation is an established fact, would you feel obliged to accept my assurance?

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:27 pm

KINGDAVID:-6

Have you ever worked at translating the Bible?

Shalom

Ted:-6

KINGDAVID · Post by **KINGDAVID** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:30 pm

Ted wrote: KINGDAVID:-6

Have you ever worked at translating the Bible?

Shalom

Ted:-6

no i havent. but it has been translated to me, and i share what i learn.

KINGDAVID · Post by **KINGDAVID** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:35 pm

spot wrote: How is it that some people can feel so certain about an issue of which they have no personal experience? Why is it that the existence of a Holy Text is enough to provide certainty? You're describing your own inner beliefs, you're not describing an external reality. If I were as certain that reincarnation is an established fact, would you feel obliged to accept my assurance?

im not describing my own inner beliefs , im describing what the bible says on hell. think of this question, if God is love, why would he create a place of fire with demonic spirits to eternally torment us when we die? hmm. if he really is a god of love , i doubt that he would want to see anyone eternally tormented in such a place, that would make him a cruel an uncaring god , to which he is the complete opposite, an the bible tells us this.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:37 pm

KINGDAVID:-6

I am formally trained in translation and interpretation of both the Greek and the Hebrew.

I do take exception to your comments that translators have let their own personal feelings interfere with what they are translating. This is neither accurate or fair.

That you have been translated to is very nice. How do you know that the persons translating to you was not letting his persoanl beliefs interfere with his tranlation?

Shalom

Ted:-6

KINGDAVID · Post by **KINGDAVID** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:56 pm

Ted wrote: KINGDAVID:-6

I am formally trained in translation and interpretation of both the Greek and the Hebrew.

I do take exception to your comments that translators have let their own personal feelings interfere with what they are translating. This is neither accurate or fair.

That you have been translated to is very nice. How do you know that the persons translating to you was not letting his persoanl beliefs interfere with his tranlation?

Shalom

Ted:-6

i havent just learned this from anyone, i have an abundance of spritual food to which to turn to for my answers to questions an to supply further information on the bible, from the bible. the past year i have been studying with jehovahs witnesses, and now i want to become one of Jehovahs witnesses, and i must say , they really speak the truth about the bible, how u may wonder? , well, i have plenty of information to supply to you or anyone who thinks otherwise about them. and what they truly beleive in, they didnt just spring about, there is a great history behind them, ill explain-

heres some information about what jehovahs witnesses beleive in.

JehovahÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Witnesses

Definition: The worldwide Christian society of people who actively bear witness regarding Jehovah God and his purposes affecting mankind. They base their beliefs solely on the Bible.

What beliefs of JehovahÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Witnesses set them apart as different from other religions?

(1)*Bible: JehovahÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Witnesses believe that the entire Bible is the inspired Word of God, and instead of adhering to a creed based on human tradition, they hold to the Bible as the standard for all their beliefs.

(2)*God: They worship Jehovah as the only true God and freely speak to others about him and his loving purposes toward mankind. Anyone who publicly witnesses about Jehovah is usually identified as belonging to the one groupÃ¢â‚¬â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“JehovahÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Witnesses.Ã¢â‚¬Â

(3)*Jesus Christ: They believe, not that Jesus Christ is part of a Trinity, but that, as the Bible says, he is the Son of God, the first of GodÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s creations; that he had a prehuman existence and that his life was transferred from heaven to the womb of a virgin, Mary; that his perfect human life laid down in sacrifice makes possible salvation to eternal life for those who exercise faith; that Christ is actively ruling as King, with God-given authority over all the earth since 1914.

(4)*GodÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Kingdom: They believe that GodÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Kingdom is the only hope for mankind; that it is a real government; that it will soon destroy the present wicked system of things, including all human governments, and that it will produce a new system in which righteousness will prevail.

(5)*Heavenly life: They believe that 144,000 spirit-anointed Christians will share with Christ in his heavenly Kingdom, ruling as kings with him. They do not believe that heaven is the reward for everyone who is Ã¢â‚¬Å“good.Ã¢â‚¬Â

(6)*The earth: They believe that GodÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s original purpose for the earth will be fulfilled; that the earth will be completely populated by worshipers of Jehovah and that these will be able to enjoy eternal life in human perfection; that even the dead will be raised to an opportunity to share in these blessings.

(7)*Death: They believe that the dead are conscious of absolutely nothing; that they are experiencing neither pain nor pleasure in some spirit realm; that they do not exist except in GodÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s memory, so hope for their future life lies in a resurrection from the dead.

(8)*Last days: They believe that we are living now, since 1914, in the last days of this wicked system of things; that some who saw the events of 1914 will also see the complete destruction of the present wicked world; that lovers of righteousness will survive into a cleansed earth.

(9)*Separate from the world: They earnestly endeavor to be no part of the world, as Jesus said would be true of his followers. They show genuine Christian love for their neighbors, but they do not share in the politics or the wars of any nation. They provide for the material needs of their families but shun the worldÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s avid pursuit of material things and personal fame and its excessive indulgence in pleasure.

(10)*Apply Bible counsel: They believe that it is important to apply the counsel of GodÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Word in everyday life nowÃ¢â‚¬â€at home, in school, in business, in their congregation. Regardless of a personÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s past way of life, he may become one of JehovahÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Witnesses if he abandons practices condemned by GodÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Word and applies its godly counsel. But if anyone thereafter makes a practice of adultery, fornication, homosexuality, drug abuse, drunkenness, lying, or stealing, he will be disfellowshipped from the organization.

(The above list briefly states some outstanding beliefs of JehovahÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Witnesses but by no means all the points on which their beliefs are different from those of other groups. i have scriptural backing on these beleifs, if your interested let me know i will share with you scriptures in regards to these beliefs.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:08 pm

KINGDAVID:-6

I honestly thought so. (Jehovah Witness).

I will make a comment on their Bible. You talked of mistranslation because of personal bias.

How about deliberate mistranslation. Make the Bible say what one wants it to say to fit in with preconceived ideas.

How about a complete failure to understand the language of the Bible and how it came to be and what it "really" says.

The forum as someone else has said should not be used for proselytization. It is for discussion and debate.

We could also discuss broken families, child molestation, the death of innocent children by refusal of blood transfusion based on a complete misunderstanding of the Bible, the negative comments made to children when their parents are not around.

At any rate carry on.

Shalom

Ted:-6

KINGDAVID · Post by **KINGDAVID** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:19 pm

Ted wrote: KINGDAVID:-6

I honestly thought so. (Jehovah Witness).

I will make a comment on their Bible. You talked of mistranslation because of personal bias.

How about deliberate mistranslation. Make the Bible say what one wants it to say to fit in with preconceived ideas.

How about a complete failure to understand the language of the Bible and how it came to be and what it "really" says.

The forum as someone else has said should not be used for proselytization. It is for discussion and debate.

We could also discuss broken families, child molestation, the death of innocent children by refusal of blood transfusion based on a complete misunderstanding of the Bible, the negative comments made to children when their parents are not around.

At any rate carry on.

Shalom

Ted:-6
i understand your views on our translation, but our bible says the pretty much the same as do others, our beliefs our from the bible, no where else do they originate. so why is it that you think so, how its it mistranslated? do you have proof for your beleifs about the bible, because i know i do, i have been backing up everything i have said in regards to the bible, ever since i signed up with this forum. like i said i before i dont speak on my own account, but from what the bible says. also i know that this forum is for discussion an debate, me an you are pretty much debating right now in some way, an im am discussing what the bible teachs an says, with scriptural backing, nothing more nothing less. plain an simple. i dont wanna make this in to an argument or anything ted, so i hope me an you can share our views on the bible in a peaceful manner.. thank you..

Post by **spot** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:22 pm

KINGDAVID wrote: im not describing my own inner beliefs , im describing what the bible says on hell. think of this question, if God is love, why would he create a place of fire with demonic spirits to eternally torment us when we die? hmm. if he really is a god of love , i doubt that he would want to see anyone eternally tormented in such a place, that would make him a cruel an uncaring god , to which he is the complete opposite, an the bible tells us this.You don't see the circular nature of your stance? "If God is love" then I'm sure you're right about the nature of hell. How do you know the nature of God? Because the Bible tells you so - at least, the way you read it convinces you that it does. Why do you believe the Bible is correct? We're back to your inner belief at that point, and the way you interpret the Bible which is also a personal matter, whether you share your interpretation in common with that of others or not.

Your inner belief is central to the way you interpret what you read. You say it's knowledge, I say it's nothing of the sort. It may be your conviction, but it isn't objective fact, and at bottom I don't believe you, you've got the whole damned thing all wrong. The God you believe in is a mythical tyrannical bastard whom I would happily, were he real, fight against for all eternity, and your interpretation of scripture stinks to high heaven.

KINGDAVID · Post by **KINGDAVID** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:25 pm

spot wrote: You don't see the circular nature of your stance? "If God is love" then I'm sure you're right about the nature of hell. How do you know the nature of God? Because the Bible tells you so - at least, the way you read it convinces you that it does. Why do you believe the Bible is correct? We're back to your inner belief at that point, and the way you interpret the Bible which is also a personal matter, whether you share your interpretation in common with that of others or not.

Your inner belief is central to the way you interpret what you read. You say it's knowledge, I say it's nothing of the sort. It may be your conviction, but it isn't objective fact, and at bottom I don't believe you, you've got the whole damned thing all wrong. The God you believe in is a mythical tyrannical bastard whom I would happily, were he real, fight against for all eternity, and your interpretation of scripture stinks to high heaven.

ok spot, i wont turn this into an argument with you , becuase its childish, thats your view, i respect that, i would say further , but ill leave it at that , have a nice day..

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:28 pm

KINGDAVID:-6

At this point in time I will withold further comment beyond this post. I have seen what this organization has done to families and individuals. I have heard from ex Jehovah Witnesses about the evil that was done to them. I have nothing against you personally. I do not know you. However, I have absolutely no use whatsoever for that organization. In fact hostile does not even come close to how I feel.

I you choose to follow this group good for you. Carry on.

Shalom

Ted

KINGDAVID · Post by **KINGDAVID** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:30 pm

JAB wrote: Where and how do you come up with the number 144,000??

please read this jab , this wil satisfy your qeustion in regards to the 144,000 who they are an where that number comes from.

To how many does the Bible hold out hope of heavenly life?

Luke 12:32: Ã¢â‚¬Å“Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.Ã¢â‚¬Â

Rev. 14:1-3: Ã¢â‚¬Å“I saw, and, look! the Lamb [Jesus Christ] standing upon the Mount Zion [in heaven; see Hebrews 12:22-24], and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. .*.*. And they are singing as if a new song .*.*. and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.Ã¢â‚¬Â

Are the 144,000 only natural Jews?

Rev. 7:4-8: Ã¢â‚¬Å“I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: .*.*. Judah .*.*. Reuben .*.*. Gad .*.*. Asher .*.*. Naphtali .*.*. Manasseh .*.*. Simeon .*.*. Levi .*.*. Issachar .*.*. Zebulun .*.*. Joseph .*.*. Benjamin.Ã¢â‚¬Â (These cannot be the tribes of natural Israel because there never was a tribe of Joseph, the tribes of Ephraim and Dan are not included in the list here, and the Levites were set aside for service in connection with the temple but were not reckoned as one of the 12 tribes. See Numbers 1:4-16.)

Rom. 2:28,*29: Ã¢â‚¬Å“He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code.Ã¢â‚¬Â

Gal. 3:26-29: Ã¢â‚¬Å“You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. .*.*. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really AbrahamÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.Ã¢â‚¬Â

Is the number 144,000 merely symbolic?

The answer is indicated by the fact that, after mention of the definite number 144,000, Revelation 7:9 refers to Ã¢â‚¬Å“a great crowd, which no man was able to number.Ã¢â‚¬Â If the number 144,000 were not literal it would lack meaning as a contrast to the Ã¢â‚¬Å“great crowd.Ã¢â‚¬Â Viewing the number as literal agrees with JesusÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ statement at Matthew 22:14 regarding the Kingdom of the heavens: Ã¢â‚¬Å“There are many invited, but few chosen.Ã¢â‚¬Â

Do those of the Ã¢â‚¬Å“great crowdÃ¢â‚¬Â referred to at Revelation 7:9,*10*also go to heaven?

Revelation does not say of them, as it does of the 144,000, that they are Ã¢â‚¬Å“bought from the earthÃ¢â‚¬Â to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion.Ã¢â‚¬â€Rev. 14:1-3.

The description of them as Ã¢â‚¬Å“standing before the throne and before the LambÃ¢â‚¬Â indicates, not necessarily a location,*but an approved condition. (Compare Revelation 6:17; Luke 21:36.) The expression Ã¢â‚¬Å“before the throneÃ¢â‚¬Â (Greek, eÃ‚Â·noÃ‚Â´piÃ‚Â·on tou throÃ‚Â´nou; literally, Ã¢â‚¬Å“in sight of the throneÃ¢â‚¬Â) does not require that they be in heaven. Their position is simply Ã¢â‚¬Å“in sightÃ¢â‚¬Â of God, who tells us that from heaven he beholds the sons of men.Ã¢â‚¬â€Ps. 11:4; compare Matthew 25:31-33; Luke 1:74,*75; Acts 10:33.

The Ã¢â‚¬Å“great crowd in heavenÃ¢â‚¬Â referred to at Revelation 19:1,*6*is not the same as the Ã¢â‚¬Å“great crowdÃ¢â‚¬Â of Revelation 7:9. The ones in heaven are not described as being Ã¢â‚¬Å“out of all nationsÃ¢â‚¬Â or as ascribing their salvation to the Lamb; they are angels. The expression Ã¢â‚¬Å“great crowdÃ¢â‚¬Â is used in a variety of contexts in the Bible.Ã¢â‚¬â€Mark 5:24; 6:34; 12:37.

Post by **spot** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:31 pm

KINGDAVID wrote: ok spot, i wont turn this into an argument with you , becuase its childish, thats your view, i respect that, i would say further , but ill leave it at that , have a nice day..:)There's two sorts of posters on here, David, those who converse and those who copy/paste reams of crud off other internet sites. All your bulk posting in this thread is uncredited plagiarism from other people's work on other sites from years ago, and I detest that sort of abuse of a discussion forum.

KINGDAVID · Post by **KINGDAVID** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:36 pm

Ted wrote: KINGDAVID:-6

At this point in time I will withold further comment beyond this post. I have seen what this organization has done to families and individuals. I have heard from ex Jehovah Witnesses about the evil that was done to them. I have nothing against you personally. I do not know you. However, I have absolutely no use whatsoever for that organization. In fact hostile does not even come close to how I feel.

I you choose to follow this group good for you. Carry on.

Shalom

Ted im sorry you feel this way ted, but taking to heart what another ex witness says about the rest of jehovahs witnesses doesnt seem very credible unless youve expierenced the life of one for yourself. an what evil r you talkin about that was done to them? personally in my view, my life has changed drastically when i became one , i couldnt be happier to tell you the truth. and why is it that you fee so much anger towards them, what did they do to you, what hapened? what makes you feel this way? please tell me.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:36 pm

spot:-6

Calm down, calm down. LOL

Shalom

Ted:-6

KINGDAVID · Post by **KINGDAVID** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:39 pm

spot wrote: There's two sorts of posters on here, David, those who converse and those who copy/paste reams of crud off other internet sites. All your bulk posting in this thread is uncredited plagiarism from other people's work on other sites from years ago, and I detest that sort of abuse of a discussion forum.

spot i dont know what you got against me. but, if your trying to make me angry or get me upset it wont work, you may say what you want, ill respect that. i wont lash back or disrespect you in anyway, so please why do you do it to me. also by copying an pasting, what is wrong with that? i would much rather do that then sit here an type it, besides its not information from other sites , its the information i receive from jehovahs witnesses an them only.

Post by **spot** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:43 pm

Ted wrote: Calm down, calm down. LOLYou wanna make something of it, big boy? You wanna come outside and say that again, huh? Make my day, why doncha.

Speaking of which, the BC ferry sinking disappeared from the news far too quickly for me to get much of an idea of why it happened - bad weather, I assumed. Were you close to it? I've used the ferry from Tsawwassen to Swartz Bay, but never up the coast. It seems strange that something like that can explode out of nowhere.

Post by **spot** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:48 pm

KINGDAVID wrote: spot i dont know what you got against meFirstly, your assumption of knowledge as opposed to opinion. Secondly, your willingness to make others work harder than yourself in order to hold a conversation with you, by flinging bulk material that cost you no effort into a conversation.

Rapunzel · Post by **Rapunzel** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:51 pm

Good Lord! Virtual fisticuffs between three grown men!

Good thing I didn't say "Three Wise Men" huh? :wah:

But to all of you I say:~

Jesus said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Uh~oh. Incoming! Duck!

KINGDAVID · Post by **KINGDAVID** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:52 pm

JAB wrote: Ah yes. But then, I don't take all the words of the Bible literally so I hardly think I'd take the number 144,000 literally either - especially if I was #144,001 and had the gates of heaven slammed in my face.

that is fine jab, but your missing the point about these 144,000 ones that the bible talks about, these are the ones that have been anoited with holy spirit, so not any old person can go to heaven, only ones that are selected by god, and he empowers those ones with holy spirit to care out the work of our lord jesus christ . take for example the disciples did in jesus' time, they were chosen to care out the work of our lord jesus, not just any person, they had gods holy spirit to a great extent to provide people with spiritual food, which by they wrote the gospels, speakin of many great things, about the future, the end of times, and who goes to heaven, an much more, so tell me by readin there words in each of there books,do u honestly think, that they dont have the spirit of god in them, no one can speak such things on there own account, by foretelling future events in the near future, an speaking glorious words about god his kingdom, an about jesus.

take a brief look at this

Who selects the ones who will go to heaven?

2*Thess. 2:13,*14: Ã¢â‚¬Å“We are obligated to thank God always for you, brothers loved by Jehovah, because God selected you from the beginning for salvation by sanctifying you with spirit and by your faith in the truth. To this very destiny he called you through the good news we declare, for the purpose of acquiring the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.Ã¢â‚¬Â

Rom. 9:6,*16: Ã¢â‚¬Å“Not all who spring from Israel are really Ã¢â‚¬ËœIsrael.Ã¢â‚¬â„¢*.*.*. It depends, not upon the one wishing nor upon the one running, but upon God, who has mercy.Ã¢â‚¬Â

Post by **spot** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:06 pm

Rapunzel wrote: Good Lord! Virtual fisticuffs between three grown men!I can never quite judge whether I sound argumentative, when I post. I do hope not, I try to be reasoned and friendly at all times. I'd be upset if anyone took my words to be unfriendly.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:37 am

spot:-6

LOL. I took them in the spirit they were given and that seemed to me to be in jest as were mine thus the LOL.

The Queen of the North was an old ship but she was beautiful. They have released very little information to date. I suppose that has to do with legal issues.

It would appear that the two on duty, who were by the way the required number, thought, for some reason they were about 7 knots north of where they actually were. The two missing folks are presumed to have gone down with the ship.

I was no where near the site but have ridden the Queen of the North a few times. The inside passage is one beautiful cruise. It takes 18 hrs to make the run between Port Hardy and Prince Rupert. That is one day each way. A neat way to spend 3 or 4 days for a small holiday.

They are presently looking for a ship to replace her. In the meantime they have hired a barge to make the usual necessary deliveries along the way.

Shalom

Ted:-6