The Ukraine phone call

Post by **spot** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:56 am

The thread books a slot to discuss the brouhaha, since we're about to be offered the "full unredacted text" of the source material tomorrow. I'll be interested to see whose bluff it calls.

Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump)

....You will see it was a very friendly and totally appropriate call. No pressure and, unlike Joe Biden and his son, NO quid pro quo! This is nothing more than a continuation of the Greatest and most Destructive Witch Hunt of all time!

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:00 pm

The only quid-pro-quo that could be is linking the denial of the aid money to the demand for an investigation into the Bidens. I don't think that's the offense per se. I think just requesting a foreign government to investigate a political opponent is the offense in and of itself.

For Pelosi to come out publically for impeachment in the face of definite objections from Israel, The NRA, and religious organizations and lobbies make this appear to be pretty serious in my mind.

Post by **spot** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:14 pm

I'm expecting he asked for a favor, which was a Ukraine public disclosure of dirt on the Bidens. Making a deal contingent on it seems unlikely. We might know tomorrow perhaps.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:09 pm

I'm loathed to use Politico as a source, but it appears there will be an impeachment investigation. https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/ ... ss-1509360

Post by **spot** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:54 pm

Ahso!;1525498 wrote: I'm loathed to use Politico as a source, but it appears there will be an impeachment investigation. https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/ ... ss-1509360

An impeachment investigation is worth a damn sight more to President Trump than it is to his detractors. If you asked him to name one thing that would get donations and votes for him he'd pick an impeachment investigation. It's how he works, it's how he wins, it's how he's done it from the beginning. The enemy is attacking, will we give in or will we fight.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:22 pm

Doing nothing isn't the answer either. Perhaps if the gloves come off and the Democrats forward someone who isn't afraid to mix it up with Trump. Going toe-to-toe might be the best strategy, but it can't be a weakling like Mueller, it has to be someone in the form of an AOC or Amy Klobuchar, or Tusli Gabbard. A fierce female, for sure. What's to lose?

Post by **spot** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:27 pm

Ahso!;1525502 wrote: What's to lose?

The 2024 election. The one next year is the re-election of the incumbent on a wave of hysterical popularity and detestation depending on who you ask.

What you cannot do is mix it up with President Trump. He won't debate anything with anyone, he won't hold a discussion with any opponent, there's no way to engage him in dialog, what he does is capture the headlines and make sure every discussion has him as the topic.

Post by **spot** » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:08 am

So, here we go. The first bang for your buck is that what was released says "a memorandum of a telephone conversation is not a verbatim transcript of a discussion". So much for the President's offer of a "complete, fully declassified and unredacted transcript".

Anyway.

ZELENSKIY: I would also like to thank you for your great support in the area of defense. We are ready to continue to cooperate for the next steps specifically we are almost ready to buy more Javelins from the United States for defense purposes.

TRUMP: I would like you to do us a favor though because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike â€¦ I guess you have one of your wealthy people â€¦ The server, they say Ukraine has it. There are a lot of things that went on, the whole situation. I think you are surrounding yourself with some of the same people. I would like to have the Attorney General call you or your people and I would like you to get to the bottom of it. As you saw yesterday, that whole nonsense ended with a very poor performance by a man named Robert Mueller, an incompetent performance, but they say a lot of it started with Ukraine. Whatever you can do, itâ€™s very important that you do it if thatâ€™s possible.

ZELENSKIY: Yes it is very important for me and everything that you just mentioned earlier. For me as a President, it is very important and we are open for any future cooperation. We are ready to open a new page on cooperation in relations between the United States and Ukraine. For that purpose, I just recalled our ambassador from United States and he will be replaced by a very competent and very experienced ambassador who will work hard on making sure that our two nations are getting closer. I would also like and hope to see him having your trust and your confidence and have personal relations with you so we can cooperate even more so. I will personally tell you that one of my assistants spoke with Mr. Giuliani just recently and we are hoping very much that Mr. G1uliani will be able to travel to Ukraine and we will meet once he comes to Ukraine. I just wanted to assure you once again that you have nobody but friends around us. I will make sure that I surround myself with the best and most experienced people. I also wanted to tell you that we are friends. We are great friends and you Mr. President have friends in our country so we can continue our strategic partnership. I also plan to surround myself with great people and in addition to that investigation, I guarantee as the President of Ukraine that all the investigations will be done openly and candidly. That I can assure you.

TRUMP: Good because I heard you had a prosecutor who was very good and he was shut down and thatâ€™s really unfair. A lot of people are talking about that, the way they shut your very good prosecutor down and you had some very bad people involved. Mr. Giuliani is a highly respected man. He was the mayor of New York City, a great mayor, and I would like him to call you. I will ask him to call you along with the Attorney General. Rudy very much knows whatâ€™s happening and he is a very capable guy. If you could speak to him that would be great. The former ambassador from the United States, the woman, was bad news and the people she was dealing with in the Ukraine were bad news so I just want to let you know that. The other thing, Thereâ€™s a lot of talk about Bidenâ€™s son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it â€¦ It sounds horrible to me.

ZELENSKIY: I wanted to tell you about the prosecutor. First of all I understand and Iâ€™m knowledgeable about the situation. Since we have won the absolute majority in our Parliament, the next prosecutor general will be 100% my person, my candidate, who will be approved, by the parliament and will start as a new prosecutor in September. He or she will look into the situation, specifically to the company that you mentioned in this issue. The issue of the investigation of the case is actually the issue of making sure to restore the honesty so we will take care of that and will work on the investigation of the case. On top of that, I would kindly ask you if you have any additional information that you can provide to us, it would be very helpful for the investigation to make sure that we administer justice in our country with regard to the Ambassador to the United States from Ukraine as far as I recall her name was Ivanovich. It was great that you were the first one who told me that she was a bad ambassador because I agree with you 100%. Her attitude towards me was far from the best as she admired the previous President and she was on his side. She would not accept me as a new President well enough.

TRUMP: Well, sheâ€™s going to go through some things. I will have Mr. Giuliani give you a call and I am also going to have Attorney General Barr call and we will get to the bottom of it. Iâ€™m sure you will figure it out. I heard the prosecutor was treated very badly and he was a very fair prosecutor so good luck with everything. Your economy is going to get better and better I predict. You have a lot of assets. Itâ€™s a great country. I have many Ukrainian friends, their incredible people.

https://wbng.com/news/national-news-fro ... versation/ - my bolding throughout.

What is completely unmentioned in the released conversation is that "The July call occurred days after Mr Trump directed the US government to withhold about $391m (Â£316m) in military aid to Ukraine". "I would like you to do us a favor though" came immediately after being "almost ready to buy more Javelins from the United States for defense purposes" had been brought into the conversation. What one might call an incentive to follow orders.

"Mr. Giuliani is a highly respected man" is pure Godfather, it really is. It's so Godfather it's comic.

And if that conversation isn't an order to dig dirt on the Bidens, complete with implied threat, I don't know what would qualify. "No pressure"? "No quid pro quo"? He has to be laughing while he says it.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:34 pm

It is rather tiresome that there are some who'd rather ignore the will of the people and seek to trump up charges so to remove a president.

Two presidents have been impeached and neither removed from office.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:25 pm

tude dog;1525523 wrote: It is rather tiresome that there are some who'd rather ignore the will of the people and seek to trump up charges so to remove a president.

Two presidents have been impeached and neither removed from office.

The will of the electoral college does not trump the willful acts of high crimes and misdemeanors. No one made him do what he does, he made those choices himself.

Post by **LarsMac** » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:35 pm

tude dog;1525523 wrote: It is rather tiresome that there are some who'd rather ignore the will of the people and seek to trump up charges so to remove a president.

The "Will of the People" ?

2% more of the voting public chose Billary over The Donald. And another 5% or so, chose somebody else entirely.

I think that The Trumpster actually made it to the office with the largest percentage of votes cast against him of any President in history.

It was a quirk of the States' screwing with the Electoral College that gave the Day to the Fool.

tude dog;1525523 wrote: Two presidents have been impeached and neither removed from office.

Third time is the charm, my granny used to say.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:45 pm

AnneBoleyn;1525526 wrote: The will of the electoral college does not trump the willful acts of high crimes and misdemeanors. No one made him do what he does, he made those choices himself.

Please, let's be serious. From the moment he won the election, before taking the oath there were calls for impeachment. Why wait for high crimes or misdemeanors?

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:04 pm

LarsMac;1525529 wrote: The "Will of the People" ?

2% more of the voting public chose Billary over The Donald. And another 5% or so, chose somebody else entirely.

I think that The Trumpster actually made it to the office with the largest percentage of votes cast against him of any President in history.

It was a quirk of the States' screwing with the Electoral College that gave the Day to the Fool.

???

LarsMac;1525529 wrote: Third time is the charm, my granny used to say.

I am no fan of the Don, but I do not look forward to removing a president strictly for political reason.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:39 pm

tude dog;1525535 wrote: ???

I am no fan of the Don, but I do not look forward to removing a president strictly for political reason.

Comparative table of elections

Democratic-Republican Â· DR Democratic Â· D Republican Â· R

Election Winner and party Electoral College Popular vote[a] Runner-up and party Turnout[a]

Votes % Votes Margin % Margin % %

1824 John Quincy Adams DR 84/261 32.18% 113,122 âˆ’38,149 30.92% âˆ’10.44% Andrew Jackson DR 26.90%

1876 Rutherford B. Hayes R 185/369 50.14% 4,034,311 âˆ’254,235 47.92% âˆ’3.02% Samuel J. Tilden D 81.80%

1888 Benjamin Harrison R 233/401 58.10% 5,443,892 âˆ’90,596 47.80% âˆ’0.79% Grover Cleveland D 79.30%

2000[17] George W. Bush R 271/538 50.37% 50,456,002 âˆ’543,895 47.87% âˆ’0.51% Al Gore D 51.20%

2016[31] Donald Trump R 304/538 55.50% 62,984,828 âˆ’2,868,686 46.09% âˆ’2.10% Hillary Clinton D 56.30%

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:25 am

spot;1525500 wrote: An impeachment investigation is worth a damn sight more to President Trump than it is to his detractors. If you asked him to name one thing that would get donations and votes for him he'd pick an impeachment investigation. It's how he works, it's how he wins, it's how he's done it from the beginning. The enemy is attacking, will we give in or will we fight.

My sense is that Trump's negatives are rising due to the constant spectacle of a 70+ juvenile-minded, adolescent-behaving person occupying what should be an honorable position. Trump's constant name-calling, acting out and playing the victim mentality has finally become tiring to far more than not.

I'm not a fan of corporate-minded, neoliberal democrats like great-grandma Pelosi, but I think she's pushed the correct button this time, as I said previously, in the face of obvious objections from Israel, the NRA, and religious groups. Those are tough lobbyist organizations to stick a thump up to.

My opinion is that it's time to take it to this xenophobic, racist, rapist and childish coward, born and bred with a silver spoon in his mouth. The A$$hole's been squatting for far too long now.

Post by **spot** » Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:57 am

But you know perfectly well that the Senate is never going to pass an impeachment with the required two-thirds majority. President Trump is fireproof against the charge. What will come of it is a whipped-up Trump base storming into a second term.

The man needs noise and conflict and anger in order to thrive. In a calm reserved considerate society he'd have been jailed long ago.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:12 am

tude dog;1525534 wrote: Please, let's be serious. From the moment he won the election, before taking the oath there were calls for impeachment. Why wait for high crimes or misdemeanors?
He DID commit them. All on his own. Without help.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:47 am

spot;1525551 wrote: But you know perfectly well that the Senate is never going to pass an impeachment with the required two-thirds majority.

The funny thing about lawyers is when and where the rubber meets the road, that they are bound to follow the law, they often appear to suddenly grow a conscience. That's better than going up against a disbarment board. They may be hardcore Republican capitalist corruption artists, but they are lawyers first. I expect them to play offense as a defense until the legal process forces their hands to wear their lawyer hats.

The wheel has been set in motion now and we will all have to see how it plays out. There is no question in my mind that there will be many, many entities on both sides working hard behind the scene doing their best to twist and misconfigure every word coming out of this inquiry, but again, when it gets serious, I do expect to see an unfamiliar, yet welcomed discipline among lawyers.

Robert Mueller had every intention in protecting his faux reputation as an honest, deliberate and reputable prosecutor and law enforcer, so he bailed where he could without committing more than he had to to the process. Hopefully, Pelosi will appoint a hard-nosed young female willing to throw some dirt into the wind to make a name for herself. One with a mind similar to that of Megan Rapinoe's body and a tenacious attitude like that of AOC to get in the face of Trump and throw him around the room a bit. A female like that is bound to get to Trump's psyche more than another coward like Robert Mueller.

No more playing the victim for Trump, those days are over. He had a legitimate issue with the antics of the intelligent community, but the jury has now been in for a while on that and it's old news now. That his loyalists can't see that and get into the present is their problem. Most Americans can see more straight than that.

It's time to get this dude playing the Richie Rich character out of the White House.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:58 am

Trump betrayed his oath to "defend the Constitution." The call reads like a classic organized crime conversation.

I always figured he'd go down for sex offenses (whores and adultery), or tax evasion (devaluing buildings when declaring them) , or money laundering (and having everyone stay at his personal hotels), or fraud (not paying contractors), or....well let's just say, Tude Dog, that is isn't an accident he's in trouble.

I think we can both agree that he's a really slimy and corrupt individual.

Post by **LarsMac** » Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:38 am

tude dog;1525535 wrote: ???

I am no fan of the Don, but I do not look forward to removing a president strictly for political reason.

Nor do I. However, the guy should never have even been on the ballot to start with.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:21 am

tude dog;1525535 wrote:

I am no fan of the Don, but I do not look forward to removing a president strictly for political reason.

You keep saying that, but....What is it about Trump that you're not a fan of.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:12 pm

Ahso!;1525558 wrote: You keep saying that, but...What is it about Trump that you're not a fan of.

He is a loathsome individual.

Post by **spot** » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:29 pm

tude dog;1525562 wrote: He is a loathsome individual.

Is there a sense in the country that it's clear "it was a very friendly and totally appropriate call"? It certainly appears very friendly on the surface but I doubt the Ukrainian participant was smiling.

magentaflame · Post by **magentaflame** » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:32 pm

I'm wondering how the Ukraine people feel about this and about their president being put in htis position ?

Post by **spot** » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:44 pm

We have a public response from the Consigliere.

â€œIt is impossible that the whistleblower is a hero and Iâ€™m not. And I will be the hero! These morons â€“ when this is over, I will be the hero,â€ Giuliani told the Atlantic.

I'm sure Rudy Giuliani in his prime would never have been caught speaking so crassly.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:45 pm

tude dog;1525562 wrote: He is a loathsome individual.

Meaning what? What makes Trump a loathsome individual? What has he done or said that makes you think that about him? Do you believe a "loathsome individual" should be occupying the White House? You appear to support his policies.

Post by **spot** » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:51 pm

The CIA whistleblower had a second point which hasn't appeared in the thread so far, I think it ought.

II. Efforts to restrict access to records related to the call

In the days following the phone call, I learned from multiple U.S. officials that senior White House officials had intervened to â€œlock downâ€ all records of the phone call, especially the official word-for-word transcript of the call that was producedâ€”as is customaryâ€”by the White House Situation Room.

This set of actions underscored to me that White House officials understood the gravity of what had transpired in the call.

White House officials told me that they were â€œdirectedâ€ by White House lawyers to remove the electronic transcript from the computer system in which such transcripts are typically stored for coordination, finalization, and distribution to Cabinet-level officials.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... pe=Article

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:01 pm

spot;1525563 wrote: Is there a sense in the country that it's clear "it was a very friendly and totally appropriate call"? It certainly appears very friendly on the surface but I doubt the Ukrainian participant was smiling.

You want he thows out a kiss?

Nobody Pushed Me

Post by **spot** » Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:04 pm

tude dog;1525572 wrote: Nobody Pushed Me

I haven't the least idea what that link leads to, it's just a black page. I see the word Video in the URL though. I use words, I don't watch television. I can't quote television. Television is an ephemeral narcotic.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:09 pm

spot;1525573 wrote: I haven't the least idea what that link leads to, it's just a black page. I see the word Video in the URL though. I use words, I don't watch television. I can't quote television. Television is an ephemeral narcotic.

It's a useless video of the dude from Ukraine sitting next to Trump at the UN saying he wasn't pressured. Of course, he'd say that.

Post by **spot** » Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:21 pm

Ahso!;1525575 wrote: It's a useless video of the dude from Ukraine sitting next to Trump at the UN saying he wasn't pressured. Of course, he'd say that.

President Trump sat next to him at the UN yesterday? The President must be rattling in his cage to have staged that.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:43 pm

spot;1525577 wrote: President Trump sat next to him at the UN yesterday? The President must be rattling in his cage to have staged that.

Yeah, he's scared, and he should be. He screwed himself by doing exactly what Michael Cohen said he does by his tendency to suggest behaviors by others. His problem is he's no longer talking to and around two-bit criminals that follow his advice. He got caught. He's as good as out of the office from what I can see.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:48 pm

Nate Silver at FiveThirtyEight agrees. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/if ... d-for-him/

"And Iâ€™m not that rare person who hears it both ways. No. Iâ€™m on the side that says itâ€™s bad for Trump. And like the Yanny or Laurel thing or The Dress, I have trouble seeing how people see it any other way. But Iâ€™d also say you shouldnâ€™t take that guess very seriously. Our track record when using statistical models is pretty darn good, but when Iâ€™m in guess mode, I donâ€™t claim to be much better than a replacement-level pundit. With that said, there is a little bit of polling data that points in the bad-for-Trump direction (more about that in a moment). And for the record, this is relatively new territory for me. Up until now, Iâ€™ve been skeptical of the political wisdom of impeachment for Democrats, as yesterdayâ€™s post detailed. The logic behind my this-is-bad-for-Trump guess is that the White Houseâ€™s record of Trumpâ€™s conversation with Zelensky represents the best-case scenario for Trump. And that best-case scenario is still potentially fairly bad for him. They have Trump on record as imploring a foreign leader to investigate Joe Biden, one of his most likely opponents in the 2020 general election."

Post by **spot** » Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:05 pm

I just saw an observation on the joint interview with both Presidents at the UN. It was labelled "Hostage Video". That's very clever.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:07 pm

Haha!

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:23 pm

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:51 am

tude dog;1525562 wrote: He is a loathsome individual.Ahso!;1525566 wrote: Meaning what? What makes Trump a loathsome individual? What has he done or said that makes you think that about him? Do you believe a "loathsome individual" should be occupying the White House? You appear to support his policies.

Before you get too far into your fetal position defense, which begins with posting cartoons, allow me to remind you that you raised the spectacle of your faux disclaimer that "I'm no fan of the Don", and that makes it relevant.

Any person who is serious about what they post would feel obliged to answer the questioned posed.

Because seriously, what can there be in your mind (that's a question in itself, isn't it.) that causes you to judge Trump as a "loathsome individual" when you appear to scoff at the allegations from multiple females about his sexual harassment and predatory behaviors, even though he readily admitted it with his "grab them by the pussy" brag, or his multiple affairs during his three marriages.

Trump's shady business practices and reputation for leaving independent contractors unpaid for services rendered hasn't elicited a peep out of you as far as I can remember.

When one examines Trump's personal history he appears to be about anything and everything someone such as yourself would admire. He's a rich white neoliberal WASP who relates to nothing other than money seriously, he appears to agree with your assessment that most black people are "animals", he's learned to kowtow to the NRA, Israel and ultra-religious representatives like Ted Cruz and Tom McCarthy, and he's deathly afraid of the reproductive habits of brown people,and he kisses up to Mitch McConnel when and wherever he can.

What's not to like for someone such as you? Praytell!

Post by **spot** » Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:33 am

Today's update? I believe we have a death threat.

President Trump:I want to know whoâ€™s the person that gave the whistle-blower the information, because thatâ€™s close to a spy. You know what we used to do in the old days when we were smart? Right? With spies and treason, right? We used to handle them a little differently than we do now.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/26/us/p ... ule=inline

What reasonable inference can we take from - I paraphrase - you know what we used to do to spies? Well I want to know who the person is.

I'd take it as a threat if it were me.

The whole of that address is worth reading.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:18 am

spot;1525601 wrote: Today's update? I believe we have a death threat.

What reasonable inference can we take from - I paraphrase - you know what we used to do to spies? Well I want to know who the person is.

I'd take it as a threat if it were me.

The whole of that address is worth reading.

Trump doesn't take advice and he doesn't know how to keep his mouth shut. I expect to see him just bury himself deeper at this point. He's dragged Barr and Pence into the fray without realizing that he's allowing people to be cornered which is only bound to make matters worse for him. But then that's what adolescent people do. Especially bully types.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:13 am

Ahso!;1525598 wrote:

When one examines Trump's personal history he appears to be about anything and everything someone such as yourself would admire.

In The Dog's defense, I doubt he actually "admires" any of those detestable qualities of the trumpster.

But, like most of his supporters, he does seem to be "blind-eyed" to anything trump does. You know, trump once bragged he could shoot someone down in the street and get away with it. If there were only his supporters on the planet, I suspect that is true.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:25 pm

Saint_;1525607 wrote: In The Dog's defense, I doubt he actually "admires" any of those detestable qualities of the trumpster.

But, like most of his supporters, he does seem to be "blind-eyed" to anything trump does.Then let "The Dog" say that. It shouldn't be so hard. Let's hear him explain what he means by "loathsome individual" as it relates to Trump.Saint_;1525607 wrote: You know, trump once bragged he could shoot someone down in the street and get away with it.

He wasn't bragging, he was making an observation. Trump himself couldn't believe that so many people were looking past his disgusting history.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:52 pm

Ahso!;1525598 wrote: Before you get too far into your fetal position defense, which begins with posting cartoons, allow me to remind you that you raised the spectacle of your faux disclaimer that "I'm no fan of the Don", and that makes it relevant.

Draft dodgers have no business being Commander in Chief. He has the arrogance to disrespect a true war hero, John McCain. Using race as a weapon, the Birther stuff for example. I also read that besides taking liberal mulligans and driving golf carts on putting greens.

That's just off the top of my head and I just don't have the time of desire to complete an essay to satisfy you.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:05 pm

tude dog;1525618 wrote: Draft dodgers have no business being Commander in Chief. He has the arrogance to disrespect a true war hero, John McCain. Using race as a weapon, the Birther stuff for example. I also read that besides taking liberal mulligans and driving golf carts on putting greens.

That's just off the top of my head and I just don't have the time of desire to complete an essay to satisfy you.

Thanks.

Post by **spot** » Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:06 pm

tude dog;1525618 wrote: Draft dodgers have no business being Commander in Chief. He has the arrogance to disrespect a true war hero, John McCain.

No, let's not leave that unchallenged. Heroes are not the people protected by air cover who who get sent abroad to kill less well armed foreigners. Heroes are the people who refuse to prop up the warlord elite. When ordered to kill whoever they're told to, mostly at minimal risk to themselves from as far away as they can get, the heroes are the ones who refuse.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:11 pm

Peacemakers are heroes to me. Except for reasons of self-defense, I find war and killing an atrocity in the highest regard.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:31 pm

spot;1525620 wrote: No, let's not leave that unchallenged. Heroes are not the people protected by air cover who who get sent abroad to kill less well armed foreigners. Heroes are the people who refuse to prop up the warlord elite. When ordered to kill whoever they're told to, mostly at minimal risk to themselves from as far away as they can get, heroes refuse.

Fair enough.

In the context of who served our country, Trump comes out a big fat zero. He constantly praises the US military which he refused to serve whereas McCain flew dangerous missions knowing he may be killed or captured.

I admire that.

Post by **spot** » Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:37 pm

tude dog;1525624 wrote: Fair enough.

In the context of who served our country, Trump comes out a big fat zero. He constantly praises the US military which he refused to serve whereas McCain flew dangerous missions knowing he may be killed or captured.

I admire that.

President Trump praises the US military while keeping them kennelled. Praising them is a requirement for getting elected to any political post in America. Keeping them locked in their bedroom is a novelty.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:40 pm

For the life of me, I can't understand why you don't support impeaching Trump then. He's as guilty as sin for what he's being charged with. He's admitted soliciting the Ukrainian President to investigate Biden and his son. Whether Biden is guilty of what Trump alleges or not, it's still soliciting meddling into our elections. That's a crime.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:41 pm

spot;1525625 wrote: President Trump praises the US military while keeping them kennelled. Praising them is a requirement for getting elected to any political post in America. Keeping them locked in their bedroom is a novelty.

I understand Trump uses drones even more than Obama did.

Post by **spot** » Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:50 pm

Ahso!;1525627 wrote: I understand Trump uses drones even more than Obama did.

Count the corpses. President Trump may have clocked up a few thousand, Presidents Obama and Bush were each into their millions.