Where is God and Christ?

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Mickiel
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Where is God and Christ?

Post by Mickiel »

Well their certainly not on earth, or why would they have to return? I don't even think God has ever been to earth. I think he has sent one or two of his spirits here before, because he has seven spirits. But where is here?
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Where is God and Christ?

Post by spot »

We can certainly try to work out a reasonable answer.

Can we have a description of God and Christ to narrow the field?

If we start with Christ as he is today? This is the easier of the two because we definitely know where the person crucified in Jerusalem, subsequently identified by New Testament writers as Christ, was in the first century. I don't think there's been a more recent sighting of God but if you know one you could describe when, where and by whom.

Anyway. Christ, lunchtime today.

Is Christ dead or alive today?

Does Christ have a physical body composed of atoms today? If we can have a Yes there it narrows down the answer a lot. If we have a No, what is he instead?

If alive today and physical today, is Christ immortal? Please describe those occasions when Christ has actually been or may become dead, if any.

Please list those periods when Christ has not had a physical body but been alive. If any such period exists then we have a major need to define "alive" in a meaningful way which conforms to any standard dictionary you care to select.

Can we also pick away at God for a post or two to get a feel for the problem? Does God have a physical body? I'm not sure how you would answer that but I'm interested.

Can we agree some attributes of God. Is he any of the following: Omnipotent? Omniscient? Omnipresent? How any of these conform with physicality I have no idea. How he can be God while missing one of them I equally can't guess.

As background personal perspective merely to inform the thread in advance, after careful consideration I do not think the word God has any meaning within the universe other than within the minds of people. There is nothing real and outside of the imagination which bears any of the attributes of any monotheistic God. As for the new testament, some of the stories relating to someone they identify as Jesus may reflect in part the experiences of one or more people who lived at any time before the stories were constructed, others may be inventions, but none relate to anyone identified as Jesus who survived the first century much less to anyone alive today.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Where is God and Christ?

Post by Mickiel »

spot;1524986 wrote: We can certainly try to work out a reasonable answer.

Can we have a description of God and Christ to narrow the field?

If we start with Christ as he is today? This is the easier of the two because we definitely know where the person crucified in Jerusalem, subsequently identified by New Testament writers as Christ, was in the first century. I don't think there's been a more recent sighting of God but if you know one you could describe when, where and by whom.

Anyway. Christ, lunchtime today.

Is Christ dead or alive today?

Does Christ have a physical body composed of atoms today? If we can have a Yes there it narrows down the answer a lot. If we have a No, what is he instead?

If alive today and physical today, is Christ immortal? Please describe those occasions when Christ has actually been or may become dead, if any.

Please list those periods when Christ has not had a physical body but been alive. If any such period exists then we have a major need to define "alive" in a meaningful way which conforms to any standard dictionary you care to select.

Can we also pick away at God for a post or two to get a feel for the problem? Does God have a physical body? I'm not sure how you would answer that but I'm interested.

Can we agree some attributes of God. Is he any of the following: Omnipotent? Omniscient? Omnipresent? How any of these conform with physicality I have no idea. How he can be God while missing one of them I equally can't guess.

As background personal perspective merely to inform the thread in advance, after careful consideration I do not think the word God has any meaning within the universe other than within the minds of people. There is nothing real and outside of the imagination which bears any of the attributes of any monotheistic God. As for the new testament, some of the stories relating to someone they identify as Jesus may reflect in part the experiences of one or more people who lived at any time before the stories were constructed, others may be inventions, but none relate to anyone identified as Jesus who survived the first century much less to anyone alive today.




I think the discussion should go well. But I think imagination and extraordinary perception need to be in place , because this is a mystical experience , about mystical people and events. This beyond the normal understanding. I'll do what I can , but I am no magician. This is the most stunning thing I have understood.
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Where is God and Christ?

Post by Mickiel »

Of course when we discuss God and Christ , the discussion is somewhat mute if you don't believe they exist. History has to be believed , or it remains a mystery. Many people believe in God . and I know why . it can be a very moving experience. It is the most sensational knowledge I have obtained. By far.
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Where is God and Christ?

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Mickiel;1525050 wrote: Of course when we discuss God and Christ , the discussion is somewhat mute if you don't believe they exist. History has to be believed , or it remains a mystery. Many people believe in God . and I know why . it can be a very moving experience. It is the most sensational knowledge I have obtained. By far.


I'm entirely in agreement, I have no difficulty at all in agreeing that both words are meaningful and that they relate to human experience. I'm keen to discover whether your understanding includes any physical manifestation of either of them and if so when and where. That was why I posed my initial questions.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
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Where is God and Christ?

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spot;1525054 wrote: I'm entirely in agreement, I have no difficulty at all in agreeing that both words are meaningful and that they relate to human experience. I'm keen to discover whether your understanding includes any physical manifestation of either of them and if so when and where. That was why I posed my initial questions.


I personally know of no physical manifestations , only one spiritual manifestation.
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Where is God and Christ?

Post by spot »

I have no problem with spiritual manifestations.

On the other hand I would find difficulty in interpreting the existence of a spiritual manifestation independent of the experience of a spiritual manifestation. If someone is experiencing a spiritual manifestation then yes, that's capable of interpretation and analysis and even congratulation.

Are we considering a spiritual manifestation in any other context? Because your first post suggests you're trying to locate one beyond Earth's orbit. Are we opening the discussion to include physical alien life?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
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Where is God and Christ?

Post by Mickiel »

spot;1525070 wrote: I have no problem with spiritual manifestations.

On the other hand I would find difficulty in interpreting the existence of a spiritual manifestation independent of the experience of a spiritual manifestation. If someone is experiencing a spiritual manifestation then yes, that's capable of interpretation and analysis and even congratulation.

Are we considering a spiritual manifestation in any other context? Because your first post suggests you're trying to locate one beyond Earth's orbit. Are we opening the discussion to include physical alien life?




I think God is some what alien. And I think there is more than one spiritual realities.God for sure is an alien, at least to me.
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Where is God and Christ?

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Where is Christ ? Well in my view he is in a place we call the heavens: up there somewhere. Christ was an alien, but I believe he actually visited the earth once or possibly more in spirit form ; I think the recorded " Jesus" was Christ. I think they exist in another dimension outside of our range, unless we could spot them Spot. Or perhaps they are out of human range.But not out of range of our imagination. It requires great imagination to actually believe they exist, and many of us have that incredible range of imagination and belief. I do and I don't know exactly why some do and others do not. I understand why some do not, its a great stretch for sure. We can't prove it all. We can prove a Jesus existed, but we cannot prove he is the Christ of heaven , we cannot prove that heaven exist.

But that heaven is where I think they are. Nibbling away at our time and brooding over their return to earth, which is very mystical within itself. You speak of the material world ; that is actually one of the reasons I believe in this God and Christ. I just can't get to the belief that all things created itself from nothing , which is also a belief. I like science and all but I am very skeptical of their views on how the material world got here , they have little evidence too. But they have compelling evidence that is mounting , as does the evidence on Jesus is , mounting. The future should be exciting in discovering more knowledge.

Now what do we mean by things " Spiritual"? One of the faults of humanity is thinking we know everything, a grave error in our consciousness.
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spot;1524986 wrote: We can certainly try to work out a reasonable answer.

Can we have a description of God and Christ to narrow the field?

If we start with Christ as he is today? This is the easier of the two because we definitely know where the person crucified in Jerusalem, subsequently identified by New Testament writers as Christ, was in the first century. I don't think there's been a more recent sighting of God but if you know one you could describe when, where and by whom.

Anyway. Christ, lunchtime today.

Is Christ dead or alive today?

Does Christ have a physical body composed of atoms today? If we can have a Yes there it narrows down the answer a lot. If we have a No, what is he instead?

If alive today and physical today, is Christ immortal? Please describe those occasions when Christ has actually been or may become dead, if any.

Please list those periods when Christ has not had a physical body but been alive. If any such period exists then we have a major need to define "alive" in a meaningful way which conforms to any standard dictionary you care to select.

Can we also pick away at God for a post or two to get a feel for the problem? Does God have a physical body? I'm not sure how you would answer that but I'm interested.

Can we agree some attributes of God. Is he any of the following: Omnipotent? Omniscient? Omnipresent? How any of these conform with physicality I have no idea. How he can be God while missing one of them I equally can't guess.

As background personal perspective merely to inform the thread in advance, after careful consideration I do not think the word God has any meaning within the universe other than within the minds of people. There is nothing real and outside of the imagination which bears any of the attributes of any monotheistic God. As for the new testament, some of the stories relating to someone they identify as Jesus may reflect in part the experiences of one or more people who lived at any time before the stories were constructed, others may be inventions, but none relate to anyone identified as Jesus who survived the first century much less to anyone alive today.


A description of God and Christ is personal opinion , spawned by either the bible or personal knowledge and speculation. I speculate that both God and Christ are spirit beings , the bible being one of the few sources that offer some description. They have spirit forums to which some clues are actually given. They have some type of " heads, arms, torso and legs." They have faces, including eyes and mouths. Their eyes are said to be like flames, and the volume of their voices are said to be loud and enigmatic. Christ is said to have hair like wool, and some type of skin like the appearance of brass.

God is said to be bright like the sun and his skin like the appearance of many jewels and crystals. A booming voice and sitting on a throne which is also described. Not much else is written. I think that God has actually changed his appearance over time , adding things to himself. They both may have wings and feet. I used to think that God may have more than one head, because he has seven spirits, and usually one spirit traditionally has a head , but I am unsure. God may also have a dragon like appearance . And yet all of this may be incorrect, I just don't know. It is indeed mystical and unreal. Just impossible to believe.
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For clarification, where you mention "this God" as a counter to "the belief that all things created itself from nothing , which is also a belief", are you suggesting that - let me pick an identification, "The God of Creation" - is identical with "this God" of the present which we've been talking about?

I can easily see that you have a belief in "this God" we're discussing, and you may well have a belief in The God of Creation, but I'm interested in why you equate them as the same God. You seem immediately to ascribe a minimum lifetime of 14 billion years to "this God". Would it bother you if The God of Creation has long since died and that "this God" isn't that old, or is One Eternal God a necessity in your understanding?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
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spot;1525112 wrote: For clarification, where you mention "this God" as a counter to "the belief that all things created itself from nothing , which is also a belief", are you suggesting that - let me pick an identification, "The God of Creation" - is identical with "this God" of the present which we've been talking about?

I can easily see that you have a belief in "this God" we're discussing, and you may well have a belief in The God of Creation, but I'm interested in why you equate them as the same God. You seem immediately to ascribe a minimum lifetime of 14 billion years to "this God". Would it bother you if The God of Creation has long since died and that "this God" isn't that old, or is One Eternal God a necessity in your understanding?


Yes they are identical.
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Post by spot »

That certainly answers a couple of questions about divine attributes then. We have a tick for Omnipotent and Eternal.

Mickiel;1525105 wrote: Now what do we mean by things " Spiritual"? One of the faults of humanity is thinking we know everything, a grave error in our consciousness.


John Milton mentioned how much is still to be discovered. Humanity, he says, is

Deep vers'd in books, and shallow in himself,

Crude or intoxicate, collecting toys,

And trifles for choice matters, worth a sponge,

As children gathering pebbles on the shore.

There was a chap went to Oxford as Professor of Poetry, whose unpublished notes were printed 93 years after Isaac Newton died. The professor's notes claim he had been told that shortly before death, Newton said "I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me". You can see where this paraphrase originated, at least. Milton did the actual imagery. The professor, who was also an ordained minister in the Church of England, had been abroad until three years after Newton died, so he certainly wasn't a witness.

I would contend that the sentence attributed to Newton conveys a psychological truth, and that attributing it to the towering intellect of Newton carries it sufficiently powerfully down the ages that Milton's original authorship has long been forgotten.

I have my doubts whether the professor of poetry was actually given the words by an accurate reporter. My strong suspicion is that he invented the words in order to convey the psychological truth and pinned them to Newton's deathbed to enhance the effect. I think it probable that he deliberately lied, knowing he lied and thinking lying in this circumstance was acceptable. But whether he was told it or not, I think the claim that the words were uttered by Newton shortly before his death is very unlikely.

Anyway no, I don't think humanity in general, Newton in popular culture or even me in particular, think we know everything. But I do agree that this word "spirit" is a complete unknown and I'm glad you raised it for discussion here. It appears to refer to an aware consciousness that can exist indefinitely with no physical, material support (such as a body or a brain). Is that a fair description?

And yet this same spirit, this aware consciousness, can inhabit a body and be responsible for that body's thoughts and actions. No human body can be alive and not have a spirit. Do please say if I'm wrong in any aspect of your thinking, I'd much rather have a mistake corrected then go off at a tangent.

If I'm right in that description, I have observations you could pick up and discuss.

I do not understand how a spirit can enter a physical body at (or before) birth and become its persona for life. The entire recorded history of Christianity insists that this happens and relies on it as a foundation, as far as I can see, but the word is meaningless to me so far because everything I have been told about neurology persuades me that the brain does all of these things, that it can be seen in scanners to do all of these things, and that if something else is in there doing all of the exact same things in tandem it seems a dreadfully wasteful design.

Your description of what a spirit is, in the context of a living human, might provide a breakthrough in this conversation.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
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spot;1525112 wrote: For clarification, where you mention "this God" as a counter to "the belief that all things created itself from nothing , which is also a belief", are you suggesting that - let me pick an identification, "The God of Creation" - is identical with "this God" of the present which we've been talking about?

I can easily see that you have a belief in "this God" we're discussing, and you may well have a belief in The God of Creation, but I'm interested in why you equate them as the same God. You seem immediately to ascribe oa minimum lifetime of 14 billion years to "this God". Would it bother you if The God of Creation has long since died and that "this God" isn't that old, or is One Eternal God a necessity in your understanding?


I personally believe in one God that I view as an eternal being. And Christ is his son. I do not ascribe a minimum lifetime to them , one of the attributes of being eternal, at times means there was no birth, no beginning , which is incredible. And these are what I suggest is hard to believe , its otherworldly to be eternal , its not in our dictionary . It is beyond our comprehension. How is someone eternal and everlasting? I can't comprehend someone alive that was never born and will never die. This is part of the mystery of God. I truly would like to know him. I think it would be quite something.



There are no necessities in my understanding of God because it changes and turns and moves . As I learn it grows in its own dynamic , being sharpened and constantly corrected. Like a Father talking to his son . I believe in one God , or we can say one Father. Now is Christ now a God? I am unsure he could be, he certainly qualifies. So we can suggest there is one Father and one son. Jesus actually created all things under the Fathers direction , so he certainly can do the things that God does , so in my understanding I am leaning towards Jesus being a God. I am not sure, but it figures.

Now God and Christ hold the power to become invisible , yet another reason we do not know where they are.
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spot;1525129 wrote: That certainly answers a couple of questions about divine attributes then. We have a tick for Omnipotent and Eternal.



John Milton mentioned how much is still to be discovered. Humanity, he says, is

Deep vers'd in books, and shallow in himself,

Crude or intoxicate, collecting toys,

And trifles for choice matters, worth a sponge,

As children gathering pebbles on the shore.

There was a chap went to Oxford as Professor of Poetry, whose unpublished notes were printed 93 years after Isaac Newton died. The professor's notes claim he had been told that shortly before death, Newton said "I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me". You can see where this paraphrase originated, at least. Milton did the actual imagery. The professor, who was also an ordained minister in the Church of England, had been abroad until three years after Newton died, so he certainly wasn't a witness.

I would contend that the sentence attributed to Newton conveys a psychological truth, and that attributing it to the towering intellect of Newton carries it sufficiently powerfully down the ages that Milton's original authorship has long been forgotten.

I have my doubts whether the professor of poetry was actually given the words by an accurate reporter. My strong suspicion is that he invented the words in order to convey the psychological truth and pinned them to Newton's deathbed to enhance the effect. I think it probable that he deliberately lied, knowing he lied and thinking lying in this circumstance was acceptable. But whether he was told it or not, I think the claim that the words were uttered by Newton shortly before his death is very unlikely.

Anyway no, I don't think humanity in general, Newton in popular culture or even me in particular, think we know everything. But I do agree that this word "spirit" is a complete unknown and I'm glad you raised it for discussion here. It appears to refer to an aware consciousness that can exist indefinitely with no physical, material support (such as a body or a brain). Is that a fair description?

And yet this same spirit, this aware consciousness, can inhabit a body and be responsible for that body's thoughts and actions. No human body can be alive and not have a spirit. Do please say if I'm wrong in any aspect of your thinking, I'd much rather have a mistake corrected then go off at a tangent.

If I'm right in that description, I have observations you could pick up and discuss.

I do not understand how a spirit can enter a physical body at (or before) birth and become its persona for life. The entire recorded history of Christianity insists that this happens and relies on it as a foundation, as far as I can see, but the word is meaningless to me so far because everything I have been told about neurology persuades me that the brain does all of these things, that it can be seen in scanners to do all of these things, and that if something else is in there doing all of the exact same things in tandem it seems a dreadfully wasteful design.

Your description of what a spirit is, in the context of a living human, might provide a breakthrough in this conversation.




I mostly agree with your description of spirit , I can see your thoughts on it. You know I think our consciousness is a spirit. I kind of differ a bit in my thoughts , I do not see the brain as a spirit. I think there is nothing in the human body that we can point to and say this physical part of the body is consciousness. I cannot explain it but consciousness is just there, really having no location in the body. We tend to think that consciousness is inside our heads , because we look with our eyes and peer outward. There is absolutely nothing inside our heads except physical bone and tissue. No doctor can touch anything in your head and call it a spirit.

And yes, we just carry our spirit, or our consciousness, around in our body. The brain supports our spirit consciousness. We need both. The consciousness, or the spirit, is like having a "Ghost" inside of you. I think its uniquely yours and a gift of life from God. Its a thinking conscious ghost. It cannot be seen or touched , but its there and its you. Just as much a part of you as your hands are. It fits your body like a glove. This is yet another reason I believe in creation , I cannot see something like consciousness evolving from nothing that exist.
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Mickiel;1525142 wrote: I mostly agree with your description of spirit , I can see your thoughts on it. You know I think our consciousness is a spirit. I kind of differ a bit in my thoughts , I do not see the brain as a spirit. I think there is nothing in the human body that we can point to and say this physical part of the body is consciousness. I cannot explain it but consciousness is just there, really having no location in the body. We tend to think that consciousness is inside our heads , because we look with our eyes and peer outward. There is absolutely nothing inside our heads except physical bone and tissue. No doctor can touch anything in your head and call it a spirit.

And yes, we just carry our spirit, or our consciousness, around in our body. The brain supports our spirit consciousness. We need both. The consciousness, or the spirit, is like having a "Ghost" inside of you. I think its uniquely yours and a gift of life from God. Its a thinking conscious ghost. It cannot be seen or touched , but its there and its you. Just as much a part of you as your hands are. It fits your body like a glove. This is yet another reason I believe in creation , I cannot see something like consciousness evolving from nothing that exist.


That's very helpful.

Do any of these have consciousness, or the spirit, like having a "Ghost" inside, which is unique and a gift of life from God?

A cow,

rat

snake

spider

parasitic intestinal tapeworm?

If there's a variation in the answer, where does the division happen?

I'm still being serious, I'm not trying to be funny, I think it's an essential question.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
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Post by spot »

Mickiel;1525142 wrote: I think there is nothing in the human body that we can point to and say this physical part of the body is consciousness. I cannot explain it but consciousness is just there, really having no location in the body. We tend to think that consciousness is inside our heads , because we look with our eyes and peer outward. There is absolutely nothing inside our heads except physical bone and tissue.


And yet if you put a human into a CAT scanner and let her listen to spoken language, or music, and to speak, and to do mental arithmetic or think of sunsets or poetry or pray or meditate, different regions of the brain light up consistently from one person to another. Does this not suggest that those regions of the brain are associated with those aspects of thought?

And how do these thought processes differ from consciousness?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
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Post by Mickiel »

spot;1525143 wrote: That's very helpful.

Do any of these have consciousness, or the spirit, like having a "Ghost" inside, which is unique and a gift of life from God?

A cow,

rat

snake

spider

parasitic intestinal tapeworm?

If there's a variation in the answer, where does the division happen?

I'm still being serious, I'm not trying to be funny, I think it's an essential question.




In my personal view, none of those things are conscious beings. I don't see consciousness in animals , I think they are alive and some can think , but they are not conscious as humans are, there is a difference. I know many view animals as conscious beings, I do not. But I tell you, some animals sure seem like they are; I am unconvinced.
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Mickiel;1525147 wrote: In my personal view, none of those things are conscious beings. I don't see consciousness in animals , I think they are alive and some can think , but they are not conscious as humans are, there is a difference. I know many view animals as conscious beings, I do not. But I tell you, some animals sure seem like they are; I am unconvinced.


That's fine, that's helpful.

So we have the cow, for instance. You would agree it is alive, it can eat, sit, turn left or right. It can chase someone across a field to defend its calf. Are these functions you would attribute in humans to conscious choice? Human and cow have evolved from a common ancestor which could also do all of these things.

Does this mean that most of the actions we humans take are not, in fact, conscious? That they're automatic and we have no control over them? Are they not part of our personality?

Or do we need a modified view of what is conscious and what isn't, to provide something exclusive to humans. I'm happy to explore whichever path you would like to take here.

A further problem is that brain damage from a stroke at a given location can prevent a person from speaking, or understanding speech, or remembering names for example. If those are all brain functions as opposed to an aspect of spirit, what are we narrowing spirit down to? Has spirit anything at all to do with recollection, when recollection can be affected by brain damage? I take it you don't regard a nail in the head as capable of causing damage to a spirit.
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Post by Mickiel »

spot;1525144 wrote: And yet if you put a human into a CAT scanner and let her listen to spoken language, or music, and to speak, and to do mental arithmetic or think of sunsets or poetry or pray or meditate, different regions of the brain light up consistently from one person to another. Does this not suggest that those regions of the brain are associated with those aspects of thought?

And how do these thought processes differ from consciousness?




Well its close , there is obvious connection between the brain and consciousness. No doubt. But just as there is obvious difference between matter and spirit , in my view there is difference between spirit and flesh. The brain is a piece of meat, consciousness is far, far more; there is no comparison. At least I see none.
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spot;1525148 wrote: That's fine, that's helpful.

So we have the cow, for instance. You would agree it is alive, it can eat, sit, turn left or right. It can chase someone across a field to defend its calf. Are these functions you would attribute in humans to conscious choice? Human and cow have evolved from a common ancestor which could also do all of things.

Does this mean that most of the actions we humans take are not, in fact, conscious? That they're automatic and we have no control over them? Are they not part of our personality? [quote}



I think we do many things that we are not conscious of. For example, while driving a car, much we do, we are not conscious of doing it. We are driving and looking at the traffic , but at the same time there is much we do, but are not conscious of doing it . We subconsciously make sure we do not steer towards the curb. We turn the music on , we are wiping our face, chewing some gum, gripping the wheel while changing hands. All automatically unconsciously doing it. Playing the piano ; the artist is using both hands , using his feet, singing, looking at the audience, remembering his words in the song , breathing correctly while singing , making sure he plays the right notes. Much of this he unconsciously does.



[ quote];

Or do we need a modified view of what is conscious and what isn't, to provide something exclusive to humans. I'm happy to explore whichever path you would like to take here.

A further problem is that brain damage from a stroke at a given location can prevent a person from speaking, or understanding speech, or remembering names for example. If those are all brain functions as opposed to an aspect of spirit, what are we narrowing spirit down to? Has spirit anything at all to do with recollection, when recollection can be affected by brain damage? I take it you don't regard a nail in the head as capable of causing damage to a spirit.


;;

Oh no , as I have said, I think the physical brain and the spirit are working together closely , our conscious thought and the brain, is like putting cool aid and sugar together, they join and exist as a pair. The consciousness feels the pain inflicted and is part of the physical damage.
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Post by spot »

Mickiel;1525151 wrote: ;;

Oh no , as I have said, I think the physical brain and the spirit are working together closely , our conscious thought and the brain, is like putting cool aid and sugar together, they join and exist as a pair. The consciousness feels the pain inflicted and is part of the physical damage.


Perhaps you could describe what difference would be apparent if a human had no spirit. What would be missing to an external observer.
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spot;1525152 wrote: Perhaps you could describe what difference would be apparent if a human had no spirit. What would be missing to an external observer.


That would be quite something. Perhaps they would be like the first humans , if we subtract their ability to reason and learn. Empty them of emotion and drain their talents, then we would have something close to what you suggest.

It may surprise you, but I seriously doubt that early man was conscious anyway. I think they were highly in tune with their senses , but just not conscious as we are. Some of my friends think I am nuts for believing that, but I have my reasons.
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Mickiel;1525181 wrote: That would be quite something. Perhaps they would be like the first humans , if we subtract their ability to reason and learn. Empty them of emotion and drain their talents, then we would have something close to what you suggest.

It may surprise you, but I seriously doubt that early man was conscious anyway. I think they were highly in tune with their senses , but just not conscious as we are. Some of my friends think I am nuts for believing that, but I have my reasons.


I can certainly provide evidence for dogs reasoning and learning and showing emotion and displaying talents. I'm not anthropomorphising, these attributes can be clearly demonstrated. Would you like each of them or can we accept that the evidence exists?

If the evidence exists, why do you list them as characteristics of spirit as opposed to brain?
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spot;1525184 wrote: I can certainly provide evidence for dogs reasoning and learning and showing emotion and displaying talents. I'm not anthropomorphising, these attributes can be clearly demonstrated. Would you like each of them or can we accept that the evidence exists?

If the evidence exists, why do you list them as characteristics of spirit as opposed to brain?


, I have seen it for myself..

We can except the evidence exist.



Human emotion and reasoning plus talents are far superior than animals , can we agree on that?
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Post by spot »

Mickiel;1525199 wrote: , I have seen it for myself..

We can except the evidence exist.



Human emotion and reasoning plus talents are far superior than animals , can we agree on that?


Undoubtedly, though some might think emotions run at a similar level.

So the presence of spirit is apparent by the enhanced reasoning and learning and showing emotion and displaying of talents in humans, rather then by the ability to reason or learn or show emotion or display talents. It's a matter of degree.

Do you find it impossible to believe that these pre-existing attributes could become stronger in humans by the same evolutionary pressure that developed today's dogs from primeval Cambrian fish?
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spot;1525201 wrote: Undoubtedly, though some might think emotions run at a similar level.

So the presence of spirit is apparent by the enhanced reasoning and learning and showing emotion and displaying of talents in humans, rather then by the ability to reason or learn or show emotion or display talents. It's a matter of degree.

Do you find it impossible to believe that these pre-existing attributes could become stronger in humans by the same evolutionary pressure that developed today's dogs from primeval Cambrian fish?


I think humans grow stronger and evolve in some areas yes.
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Post by spot »

Mickiel;1525202 wrote: I think humans grow stronger and evolve in some areas yes.


Could we agree then that you think some human decisions are taken by a person's spirit and other human decisions are taken by a person's brain?

Is it apparent to an observer which part of the person makes a given decision? Is it apparent to the person involved? If either is yes then that's an avenue we could explore to find an aspect of humanity which has changed since God decided to add a spirit to each child born.

Does every human now have one? Are there humans now to whom a spirit has been denied from the start?

The thing is, I'm not sure I could compare one bunch of humans with spirits and another bunch without and know which group was which, and I'm not sure the humans in each group would know either.
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spot;1525203 wrote: Could we agree then that you think some human decisions are taken by a person's spirit and other human decisions are taken by a person's brain?

Is it apparent to an observer which part of the person makes a given decision? Is it apparent to the person involved? If either is yes then that's an avenue we could explore to find an aspect of humanity which has changed since God decided to add a spirit to each child born.

Does every human now have one? Are there humans now to whom a spirit has been denied from the start?

The thing is, I'm not sure I could compare one bunch of humans with spirits and another bunch without and know which group was which, and I'm not sure the humans in each group would know either.


I think every human has a spirit, I think a spirit means a consciousness.

I think primordial humans were denied a spirit.
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Mickiel;1525204 wrote: I think every human has a spirit, I think a spirit means a consciousness.

I think primordial humans were denied a spirit.


So can a spirit be damaged just by a brain injury? A spirit presumably can use language but a brain injury can remove comprehension of language. We know the brain is damaged, we can watch the damage on the CAT scanner. Is the spirit incapable of using language as well? Could it use language beforehand?

I'm exploring this concept of dual control centers performing the same function.

Perhaps spirits can't use language?
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spot;1525205 wrote: So can a spirit be damaged just by a brain injury? A spirit presumably can use language but a brain injury can remove comprehension of language. We know the brain is damaged, we can watch the damage on the CAT scanner. Is the spirit incapable of using language as well? Could it use language beforehand?

I'm exploring this concept of dual control centers performing the same function.

Perhaps spirits can't use language?


I don't think a spirit can be damaged , it is really us; who we are, our lives recorded and stored. When we die God takes that recording and stores it. But when the brain is damaged the consciousness is affected , hurt but not destroyed. You can beat a human body beyond description, but as long as the person is still alive, the spirit is still there, the consciousness still present. And when they die, the spirit never dies, it goes to God, wherever he is.Such is my belief.
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In my thoughts , from all theories I have examined , I accept most that humans are really spiritual beings, just now having to live in a physical world. In physical temporary bodies. There is far more to life than we know; this stuff now is not our intended future; no. It can't be, its not enough. Oh one can accept its all to it, because that is as far as their consciousness can go. I have stretched a bit further.
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Where God is , its a mystery, as God is a mystery. Believing God is real or not , hurts no one. We can live and die , our view of God has not hurt humanity ; humans have hurt humans , and often have used religion as an excuse to ravage and hurt each other. This is something God has obviously allowed , he knew we would do this. And he knows what he is going to do about it. None of us are doomed to some hurtful future far ahead, the future belongs to God, and we all will live in it. I don't know what God is going to get out of human suffering , but he wanted it first, before we shift into his reality. Only then will we know how we will benefit from all this we only now understand. I often wonder just what is on his mind ; and I think the complete salvation of all humanity is one thing he wants.
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Mickiel;1525277 wrote: Where God is , its a mystery, as God is a mystery. Believing God is real or not , hurts no one. We can live and die , our view of God has not hurt humanity ; humans have hurt humans , and often have used religion as an excuse to ravage and hurt each other. This is something God has obviously allowed , he knew we would do this. And he knows what he is going to do about it. None of us are doomed to some hurtful future far ahead, the future belongs to God, and we all will live in it. I don't know what God is going to get out of human suffering , but he wanted it first, before we shift into his reality. Only then will we know how we will benefit from all this we only now understand. I often wonder just what is on his mind ; and I think the complete salvation of all humanity is one thing he wants.


Some of what we humans know about "A God", comes from our imagination , history or word of mouth. We reference books and our cultures to rely on such unusual subjects. If I may use my own reasonings and say how I think on the matter, not knowing if a God is listening to me or not. I don't see how something that exist can come into existence without something else that exist, brings it into existence. But using that reasoning , just how is it that God exist? Just as much a mystery as where is God?

Why can't all things just be simple?



How spoiled would humanity be if all things were simple? If you think about it life seems like a puzzle. A mathematical puzzle, an emotional puzzle , a scientific puzzle. Some people actually get so sick of it , they give up on life itself. Just tired of the puzzle, what is right or wrong, who is right or wrong. It takes a certain strength just to keep going, often not even knowing where your going.
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One of the more depressing things about God and Christ is not " Knowing"; not knowing where they are , if they even exist, why they keep hidden; not knowing what they think about you , why they have done things like they have. God knows that we don't know; he knows. So none of this is our fault , which is why I believe in Universalism; or all humans being saved from this unknown dynamic. You don't place billions of humans into this barrel of living without God , then start judging them based on confusion. God would not do that. But many just don't know he would not do that. They base their beliefs on not knowing God. And that only adds to the confusion.
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Post by spot »

Mickiel;1525375 wrote: You don't place billions of humans into this barrel of living without God , then start judging them based on confusion. God would not do that. But many just don't know he would not do that.


I’ll warn you before I start, this is likely to be a longish post. It’s in direct reply to the thread and I think it’s entirely relevant, I hope people have the perseverance to get to the end. A forum is the wrong place for this sort of thing, a forum is meant more for conversation than analysis, but it’s where I’ve reached in considering the points you’ve made here.

The one thing I’ve discovered so far in life is that nothing is true.

There is no truth, there is experience. What people do with experience is make up stories, listen to other people’s stories, choose between stories. That’s when they’re not just doing what they’ve been told to do, of course. Most people for most of history have done what they’ve been told to do, it’s a survival trait.

What some people have done on and off since pre-history is science, which is story-telling. It consists of suggesting a rule and seeing whether the rule can make accurate repeatable predictions of future events. Most often, those future events are observations. The rules which become trusted in that regard are then used to help think up new, untested rules, and so the cycle continues. Science is a very powerful technique. It made electrical circuitry. It made mathematics. It put satellites in orbit.

What some other people have done on and off since pre-history is religion, which is story-telling. It consists of suggesting a rule and seeing whether the rule can make a coherent interpretation of past events. Most often, those past events are passed down by the shaman, the story-teller, or later by the scribes who know how to get a coherent story out of a bag-load of campfire tales especially if they tweak the tales and make a few key figures carry several names. Jacob and Israel spring to mind. Various Abrams. Or making a key figure carry a generic name like Adam. Can religion make accurate repeatable predictions of future events? Of course not, it never set out to. Give a scribe a king list and a scribe can know exactly what God thought of each king by what fate befell him. Stands to reason, after all. Give a scribe enough fast-induced hallucinations and he’ll write the entire Book of Revelations but it’s not an accurate prediction of a future event. Give a religion a Book of Revelation and the religion’s adherents will treat it as an accurate prediction of a future event and milk it for millennia.

The story telling is far broader than these categories, obviously. You can have a rule that slavery is a benefit to society, that prison deters people from breaking laws, that punishing lawbreakers is a good principle. You can have a rule that words from the past may no longer be spoken even when discussing the past – the word-censorship on ForumGarden won’t even let me put up an example here to make my point. You can have a rule that a person is inherently more valuable than an animal, or that wealth-creators should benefit financially from their activities. We’ve seen examples of societies where being a non-productive burden leads to sanatoria where the patients are made to die, where being uncooperative leads to sanatoria where the patients are lobotomised, where being a domesticated farm animal leads to a slaughterhouse and family mealtimes. They’re all rules made up by elements of a society, they’re all untestable, they’re all possible only because they are what happens. Should the world operate for the greatest good of the greatest number? Maybe there need to be safeguards to protect the individual. Look, we just invented Human Rights.

This thread described part of the story you’ve adopted. This post has described an equivalent part of mine. There is not a lot of overlap but I hope you agree I’m still on topic.
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I think your on topic and I agree with much of what you said. People have lived throughout history just repeating what they have learned and religion is just one of the things they have learned. We live our lives according to our dreams. We create stories and pass them down to each generation. Each generation takes it as truth. One day we challenged this and began to scientifically apply things we learned and the scientific Revolution began. I question the scientific truth as well as the religious truth, both are full of crap in certain areas. Science has discovered more relevant truth than religion has in my view. That is my opinion. The scientific Revolution punched some serious holes in religion. I don't like religion that well myself , it is full of deceptions. A lot of the stories we passed down were just invented by human consciousness. And I know that , so it requires some serious thought to begin to believe in God in a serious manner. The truth is when it comes to God, it seems like most people believe that story.
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That’s very productive, thank you. We’re certainly in a position to explore the source and meaning of some of our vocabulary, that would be a helpful step. We could indulge in a little story telling and see what religious common ground we can invent, the more the merrier.

If we can focus in on one evening just outside a cave complex part-way up a hill overlooking a Dolomite valley. I’m looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_religion for serendipitous inspiration at the moment if you’d like a quick glance. The date is 9th February 27439 BC, Gregorian style, and it’s an hour after sunset. The children are safely asleep at the back of the cave and the corpse of Gudri is being washed before they put it in the burial cave with the ancestors.

I think the question “where is Gudri now” is admissible. Gudri had a personality, the bit of Gudri which is obviously no longer present. They’re about to take Gudri to join his parents who died decades earlier. The words “Gudri has gone to rejoin those who went before” will be natural to the story-teller whenever Gudri is brought to mind over the next few years. The direction that takes the story is fairly evident. If you’re looking for a duality between body and soul, that’s a good starting place. Gudri is with the ancestors at the happy hunting ground, feasting, safe, waiting for his children to join him. It may even be that only the good children will get to see him again so do what you’re told and don’t break those taboos we told you about.

The undying soul is an entirely human construct, as made-up a part of religious story-telling as anything else and it ends up, by the time of Torquemada, as a powerful aspect of societal control. We will burn you at the stake of you step outside these boundaries, it’s the only way we can save your eternal soul from your heretical belief and behavior.

But “Where is Gudri now?”. The story-teller knows that too. As the sun rises unerringly in the East and sets in the West so life’s journey begins at the sunrise and goes eventually into the sunset. Gudri’s taken his grave goods and walked into the Summerland. The Queen of the Summerland’s guard has accepted him for entry, has let him pass, and then it was all smiles and how the tribe is getting on and let’s go and give thanks to the Queen and do a bit of eternal worship before the next hunt.

The gods of the tribe need a history, that’s why they have such a good story-teller. The first phase of stories might mention Gaia the mother and Birgit the bright god, she’s the one who helps the mightiest of the hunters and beats up the best game so long as she’s included in the feasts, a portion set aside for her, libations poured to the ground in her honor. Eventually the story-teller includes Odin and the inevitable rebirth of everything at Ragnarök. The concept of eternal life goes back a long way but it is just that, a concept, a story-teller’s construct. It’s no better or worse than any other story, it’s no less true than everything else, nothing known to anyone has ever been true, it has always, everywhere, been an interpretation of experience. I suggest that a religion is a gathering together of stories into a more or less coherent body and that the design is tweaked to add power to the religion. Odin was once powerful. Zeus was powerful. Christianity and Islam are still moving the ball upfield. God only knows what the Hindus are doing with their pantheon these days but there’s a lot of milk still being poured at the feet of Ganesha.
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Post by Raphael »

There is a very reasonable point of view which says -- you have a brain , so use it .

But I think there is a certain class of problem where it is absurd to think that the brain can answer them for a long time and / or -- perhaps --- ever .

What sort of problems ?

Those where the brain has yet to establish the reference points which even allow the problem to be accurately outlined .

Such as where is God ?

Forget Jesus because if you find God , 'he' will tell you all about his alleged son .



The Bible is clearly just a partial peep at one or two matters and in a very simple way .

But it does offer some very believable clues about God .

Unknowable, being a key one .

So take the hint and make your life searches more relevant to these times , efficient and productive . imho .
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This must be a new use of the word "believable" which which I am not yet familiar.

There is language and there is Physics. Language has the word "unknowable", while Physics has an exploratory tool called mathematics. I know which I'd entrust with my hard-earned understanding of the world.

The bible has been in existence ever since Ezra's scribes established the Temple on the run-down ruins of an older complex and stole Jerusalem, settling into a life of well-fed luxury. I'm delighted that the corpus has survived so well but it is solely the construct of human minds. The word "unknowable" is an aspect of fiction, not of a real-life independent monster leeching off its terrorized creation. When I see a rainbow I am not looking at a promise made by a genocidal outrage, I am looking at a campfire folk tale.
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Post by Raphael »

Guess you are stuck in that old fashioned way of thinking .

The world of probability and the statistical significance of data allows meaningful inferences and one expression exampling this is , 'believability .

Come on Spot , it is time to review and catch up .
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Post by spot »

Oddly enough I'm quite comfortable with both probability and statistics, especially when manipulating numbers through what are reasonably simple arithmetic processes. I have on occasion taught the subjects to non-specialists.

The degree of credence to allow in given circumstances of measurement is one of my strong points. None of this has the slightest overlap with theology. Even Pascal could only boil that down to a childish binary wager, if you recall.
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Post by Raphael »

spot;1526896 wrote: Oddly enough I'm quite comfortable with both probability and statistics, especially when manipulating numbers through what are reasonably simple arithmetic processes. I have on occasion taught the subjects to non-specialists.

The degree of credence to allow in given circumstances of measurement is one of my strong points. None of this has the slightest overlap with theology. Even Pascal could only boil that down to a childish binary wager, if you recall.


A binary proposition is a totally precise probability .

And is enough for Mr Bloggs living his anomaly free and 99.999999999 % uneventful life .

Unfortunately the binary view does not exist in real terms following the discovery and proofs of Quantum theory .

Now everything has to be measured in terms of probability but with previously

considered two condition alternative states being actually three . At minimum .
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Post by spot »

Raphael;1526898 wrote: Now everything has to be measured in terms of probability but with previously considered two condition alternative states being actually three . At minimum .


The last time I checked, Russian silos could direct a warhead onto a given location to within 65cm. All without a single mention of quantum considerations in their guidance computer. That's quite good enough for my own day to day tasks.
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Post by Raphael »

Not sure what that has to do with the price of parsnips .

We were talking about the types and rigour of available proofs to sensibly talk about a specific subject -- the existence of God .

How do you imagine that the system handling those Russian missiles has a bearing on this matter ?

Even if the computer responsibility was quantum ,(probably not yet available ) , I fail to even see a possible relation of missile statistics and the computer system to the presence or absence of any individual , let alone the supposed singularity .

I think you have veered off the track .And crashed .
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Post by spot »

Raphael;1526908 wrote: Not sure what that has to do with the price of parsnips .

We were talking about the types and rigour of available proofs to sensibly talk about a specific subject -- the existence of God .

How do you imagine that the system handling those Russian missiles has a bearing on this matter ?

Even if the computer responsibility was quantum ,(probably not yet available ) , I fail to even see a possible relation of missile statistics and the computer system to the presence or absence of any individual , let alone the supposed singularity .

I think you have veered off the track .And crashed .


No, it's just that you can't follow quotes by the look of it. I was responding, explicitly, to "Now everything has to be measured in terms of probability". I would particularly bring the "everything" to your attention.

"God", meanwhile, is a human mental construct with no external reality. So is Justice and Hope but these days we do not, in reasonable conversation, personify Justice or Hope. For some reason some people still personify God which makes the word, and the very notion, unpalatable. I'd happily use the concept if nobody went in for this brainless externalization but since they do it's a barrier to communication, not an aid.
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Raphael
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Where is God and Christ?

Post by Raphael »

spot;1526910 wrote: No, it's just that you can't follow quotes by the look of it. I was responding, explicitly, to "Now everything has to be measured in terms of probability". I would particularly bring the "everything" to your attention.




You seem badly out of form today .

Why bring ," everything ", to my attention ?

It was me who used the term in the first instance .

Repeating :- it now encompasses more than two states -- the old 'Binary ' universe .

It encompasses at least three -- Quantum theory in simple terms .

And it will cover more than three sometime in the future when we can better cope with the many extra dimensions predicated by Quantum theory .

Of course picturing a multi dimensional entity such as God in 'human' terms is limiting and ultra simple .

But kids and not very smart people need a simple primer for something complex that they will not ever understand .
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spot
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Where is God and Christ?

Post by spot »

Yay! Dutch incarnate! I think you must have found his threads to post such a good facsimile.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Mickiel
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Where is God and Christ?

Post by Mickiel »

spot;1526930 wrote: Yay! Dutch incarnate! I think you must have found his threads to post such a good facsimile.


The thread welcomes all views. In my view God is real because reality is real and nothing real created itself. It's too hard for something to invent itself. That is unacceptable to me, the way I figure things.
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spot
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Where is God and Christ?

Post by spot »

Mickiel;1526947 wrote: The thread welcomes all views. In my view God is real because reality is real and nothing real created itself. It's too hard for something to invent itself. That is unacceptable to me, the way I figure things.


What puzzles me is that you require this causation to be conscious and aware. I have no idea why you regard that as a necessity, still less why you think it should continue to be conscious and aware 14 billion years later. I don't remember you ever addressing that aspect, I'd welcome your opinion.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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