Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
- magentaflame
- Posts: 3007
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- Location: Victoria, Australia
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
Thankyou to our politicians who debated yesterday and through the night to this morning.
An outcome that has put many peoples hearts and minds at ease.
Daniel Andrews our premier (although i dont always agree with him) has made a few brave decisions....and this was an exelent result. Passed by ten votes. So not a slim margin. (47 to 37).
Its strict legislation but it has passed.
Basically, you must have 6to 12 months to live, in agony that medication will not ileviate. And permission of two chief doctors. We may not all need this but its nice to know its there.
An outcome that has put many peoples hearts and minds at ease.
Daniel Andrews our premier (although i dont always agree with him) has made a few brave decisions....and this was an exelent result. Passed by ten votes. So not a slim margin. (47 to 37).
Its strict legislation but it has passed.
Basically, you must have 6to 12 months to live, in agony that medication will not ileviate. And permission of two chief doctors. We may not all need this but its nice to know its there.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
- magentaflame
- Posts: 3007
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
- Location: Victoria, Australia
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
Im just a little proud to be a Victorian right now. Dont get me wrong here....it still has to pass the upper house but although tight itll be a doddle!.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
In Europe there is Dignitas which, oddly, doesn't offer a lifetime subscription - just annual membership - which rather misses the point. They don't have a freephone number either.
In America they have permissive gun laws which obviate the problem entirely.
In America they have permissive gun laws which obviate the problem entirely.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
Usa!usa!usa!usa!
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
This serious thread went down hill very quickly didn't it ?
It is comforting to know if need be you can check out on your own terms.
It is comforting to know if need be you can check out on your own terms.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
spot;1513458 wrote: In Europe there is Dignitas which, oddly, doesn't offer a lifetime subscription - just annual membership - which rather misses the point. They don't have a freephone number either.
In America they have permissive gun laws which obviate the problem entirely.
I don't think there is much dignity at all in being shot. Besides, the ones who do get shot are usually not the ones who are wanting an early check-out.
We do have a law in the state of Colorado which allows a body to expire instead of waiting for the final moment, but you have be near death to qualify, and then spend you last days dealing with Lawyers and such. How can you call that dignified?
In America they have permissive gun laws which obviate the problem entirely.
I don't think there is much dignity at all in being shot. Besides, the ones who do get shot are usually not the ones who are wanting an early check-out.
We do have a law in the state of Colorado which allows a body to expire instead of waiting for the final moment, but you have be near death to qualify, and then spend you last days dealing with Lawyers and such. How can you call that dignified?
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
LarsMac;1513468 wrote: I don't think there is much dignity at all in being shot. Besides, the ones who do get shot are usually not the ones who are wanting an early check-out.
We do have a law in the state of Colorado which allows a body to expire instead of waiting for the final moment, but you have be near death to qualify, and then spend you last days dealing with Lawyers and such. How can you call that dignified?
Is that like our do not resuscitate orders
BBC - Ethics - Euthanasia: DNR - Do Not Resuscitate
DNR - Do Not Resuscitate
DNRs are Do Not Resuscitate orders. A DNR order on a patient's file means that a doctor is not required to resuscitate a patient if their heart stops and is designed to prevent unnecessary suffering.
The usual circumstances in which it is appropriate not to resuscitate are:
when it will not restart the heart or breathing
when there is no benefit to the patient
when the benefits are outweighed by the burdens
Although DNRs can be regarded as a form of passive euthanasia, they are not controversial unless they are abused, since they are intended to prevent patients suffering pointlessly from the bad effects that resuscitation can cause: broken ribs, other fractures, ruptured spleen, brain damage.
In the case of serious/terminal illness the patient is the one who gets asked what they want to do and their decision supercedes anyone elses opinion.
Why is there any need for lawyers to get involved?
We do have a law in the state of Colorado which allows a body to expire instead of waiting for the final moment, but you have be near death to qualify, and then spend you last days dealing with Lawyers and such. How can you call that dignified?
Is that like our do not resuscitate orders
BBC - Ethics - Euthanasia: DNR - Do Not Resuscitate
DNR - Do Not Resuscitate
DNRs are Do Not Resuscitate orders. A DNR order on a patient's file means that a doctor is not required to resuscitate a patient if their heart stops and is designed to prevent unnecessary suffering.
The usual circumstances in which it is appropriate not to resuscitate are:
when it will not restart the heart or breathing
when there is no benefit to the patient
when the benefits are outweighed by the burdens
Although DNRs can be regarded as a form of passive euthanasia, they are not controversial unless they are abused, since they are intended to prevent patients suffering pointlessly from the bad effects that resuscitation can cause: broken ribs, other fractures, ruptured spleen, brain damage.
In the case of serious/terminal illness the patient is the one who gets asked what they want to do and their decision supercedes anyone elses opinion.
Why is there any need for lawyers to get involved?
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
If I get to that stage I'll have Do Not Converse on a large sign.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
- magentaflame
- Posts: 3007
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
- Location: Victoria, Australia
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
We dont know how it will be administered yet.
One stipulation iis youll have to be under palliative care.
Put it this way, just because a doctor says youve got 12 months to live doesnt mean you can top yourself.....we already have sleeping pills and morphine overdose for that.
Its for when your organs are shutting down and pain relief is longer doing any good.
Its not like DNR....my poor mum had that experience of having to find the paper so the amboes didnt resuss dad.
One stipulation iis youll have to be under palliative care.
Put it this way, just because a doctor says youve got 12 months to live doesnt mean you can top yourself.....we already have sleeping pills and morphine overdose for that.
Its for when your organs are shutting down and pain relief is longer doing any good.
Its not like DNR....my poor mum had that experience of having to find the paper so the amboes didnt resuss dad.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
spot;1513458 wrote: In America they have permissive gun laws which obviate the problem entirely.Even without our liberal gun laws it'd still be easy enough - just walk toward a cop with a less than happy face and reach around the back of your waistband. And it's not even that difficult if you're black. The Mexicans have it the worst - they don't get to die at all - they get thrown in detention cells and then deported. Very discriminatory indeed.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
- magentaflame
- Posts: 3007
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
- Location: Victoria, Australia
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
spot;1513479 wrote: If I get to that stage I'll have Do Not Converse on a large sign.
Hahaha....so you definitely dont want a conversation at that stage of the game.
Hahaha....so you definitely dont want a conversation at that stage of the game.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
spot;1513479 wrote: If I get to that stage I'll have Do Not Converse on a large sign.
I've been considering a tattoo on my chest that reads "DNR - and if you do I'll be seeing you in court!"
I've been considering a tattoo on my chest that reads "DNR - and if you do I'll be seeing you in court!"
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
spot;1513479 wrote: If I get to that stage I'll have Do Not Converse on a large sign.
Boom Boom......you are turning into a laugh a minute poster. (what happened ?)
Boom Boom......you are turning into a laugh a minute poster. (what happened ?)
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
- magentaflame
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- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
- Location: Victoria, Australia
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
Bruv;1513465 wrote: This serious thread went down hill very quickly didn't it ?
It is comforting to know if need be you can check out on your own terms.
What was interesting was who got this over the line....country conservative politicians...those guys say no to everything! They head the no vote for same sex marriage.....which also looks as if its going through in regards to the voluntary postal vote.
It is comforting to know if need be you can check out on your own terms.
What was interesting was who got this over the line....country conservative politicians...those guys say no to everything! They head the no vote for same sex marriage.....which also looks as if its going through in regards to the voluntary postal vote.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
gmc;1513477 wrote: Is that like our do not resuscitate orders
BBC - Ethics - Euthanasia: DNR - Do Not Resuscitate
DNR - Do Not Resuscitate
In the case of serious/terminal illness the patient is the one who gets asked what they want to do and their decision supercedes anyone elses opinion.
Why is there any need for lawyers to get involved?
The Problem with DNR is that you must have actually "died" before they become effective.
It is amazing how long a terminally ill person can remain alive against their will.
BBC - Ethics - Euthanasia: DNR - Do Not Resuscitate
DNR - Do Not Resuscitate
In the case of serious/terminal illness the patient is the one who gets asked what they want to do and their decision supercedes anyone elses opinion.
Why is there any need for lawyers to get involved?
The Problem with DNR is that you must have actually "died" before they become effective.
It is amazing how long a terminally ill person can remain alive against their will.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
- magentaflame
- Posts: 3007
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
- Location: Victoria, Australia
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
One of the conservative politicians said she didnt vote on account of her personal experience but her mefical experience in which she wittnessed a young man who had cancer screaming in pain only hours before his death. Nobody would wish that on their child. And its just not fair to allow a young person to die like that.lets face it that didnt need to happen. You dont want to be a parent relieved at the death of their child just so theyre not in pain anymore.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
LarsMac;1513496 wrote: The Problem with DNR is that you must have actually "died" before they become effective.
It is amazing how long a terminally ill person can remain alive against their will.Religious institutions and hospitals can ignore DNR directives too because it goes against their religious beliefs. In the US Catholic organizations have been buying up many of the hospitals.
My kids sometimes ask me how they're going to find me. I tell them it won't be messy, but I'm sure it will be startling no matter how used to the idea I try to get them.
It is amazing how long a terminally ill person can remain alive against their will.Religious institutions and hospitals can ignore DNR directives too because it goes against their religious beliefs. In the US Catholic organizations have been buying up many of the hospitals.
My kids sometimes ask me how they're going to find me. I tell them it won't be messy, but I'm sure it will be startling no matter how used to the idea I try to get them.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
- magentaflame
- Posts: 3007
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
- Location: Victoria, Australia
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
How is it a quick death just because youre shot? What are they using? Elephant guns?
Thats a silly argument! How many have tried to shoot themselves in the head and missed the target.....and thats at point blank range
Thats a silly argument! How many have tried to shoot themselves in the head and missed the target.....and thats at point blank range
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
magentaflame;1513529 wrote: How is it a quick death just because youre shot? What are they using? Elephant guns?
Thats a silly argument! How many have tried to shoot themselves in the head and missed the target.....and thats at point blank rangeWho knows what is and isn't "quick" when it comes to death. I'd bet that in many cases the brain continues to function after the body quits. Near-death experiences seem to support that idea.
Thats a silly argument! How many have tried to shoot themselves in the head and missed the target.....and thats at point blank rangeWho knows what is and isn't "quick" when it comes to death. I'd bet that in many cases the brain continues to function after the body quits. Near-death experiences seem to support that idea.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
- magentaflame
- Posts: 3007
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
- Location: Victoria, Australia
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
Ahso!;1513518 wrote: Religious institutions and hospitals can ignore DNR directives too because it goes against their religious beliefs. In the US Catholic organizations have been buying up many of the hospitals.
My kids sometimes ask me how they're going to find me. I tell them it won't be messy, but I'm sure it will be startling no matter how used to the idea I try to get them.
My kids think im morbid because i have plans and in bad circumstances a date (which ill never disclose to anyone, dont worry its a long way off and subject to change) ....they have no problem with my funeral ideas though.....except for one comment "what if we cant get the worktime off" there's a sign of the times! And exactly why i have plans.
My kids sometimes ask me how they're going to find me. I tell them it won't be messy, but I'm sure it will be startling no matter how used to the idea I try to get them.
My kids think im morbid because i have plans and in bad circumstances a date (which ill never disclose to anyone, dont worry its a long way off and subject to change) ....they have no problem with my funeral ideas though.....except for one comment "what if we cant get the worktime off" there's a sign of the times! And exactly why i have plans.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
- magentaflame
- Posts: 3007
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
- Location: Victoria, Australia
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
Ahso!;1513530 wrote: Who knows what is and isn't "quick" when it comes to death. I'd bet that in many cases the brain continues to function after the body quits. Near-death experiences seem to support that idea.
Depends on blood flow to the brain.
During the debating the opposition wanted the name of the dying agent changed to "poison".. something tells me there will be a choice of drug. Legal drugs that just overdose you. (I say that in good faith and trust though)
The thing is though. With this legislation only a minute number of people will need it. Its not for every single person dying of an illness ....youll have to be RIGHT AT THE END .
I remember not understanding when my nana died. I asked if she was in pain...the answer was theyve given her enough not to kill her. I was a young woman then but i just didnt get it. Shes going to be dead in the next twentyfour hours and still they wont help her. That was just too weird for my own brain to comprehend. Of course she was in pain! Exhausted! And not coming back wirh any kind if amazing resurrection. I didnt much like the woman in life but....damn i dont like to see that kind of suffering. When youre hilding someones hand and telling them they dont have to struggle anymore ....i dont know.
She died some hours later.
Depends on blood flow to the brain.
During the debating the opposition wanted the name of the dying agent changed to "poison".. something tells me there will be a choice of drug. Legal drugs that just overdose you. (I say that in good faith and trust though)
The thing is though. With this legislation only a minute number of people will need it. Its not for every single person dying of an illness ....youll have to be RIGHT AT THE END .
I remember not understanding when my nana died. I asked if she was in pain...the answer was theyve given her enough not to kill her. I was a young woman then but i just didnt get it. Shes going to be dead in the next twentyfour hours and still they wont help her. That was just too weird for my own brain to comprehend. Of course she was in pain! Exhausted! And not coming back wirh any kind if amazing resurrection. I didnt much like the woman in life but....damn i dont like to see that kind of suffering. When youre hilding someones hand and telling them they dont have to struggle anymore ....i dont know.
She died some hours later.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
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Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
magentaflame;1513450 wrote: Thankyou to our politicians who debated yesterday and through the night to this morning.
An outcome that has put many peoples hearts and minds at ease.
Daniel Andrews our premier (although i dont always agree with him) has made a few brave decisions....and this was an exelent result. Passed by ten votes. So not a slim margin. (47 to 37).
Its strict legislation but it has passed.
Basically, you must have 6to 12 months to live, in agony that medication will not ileviate. And permission of two chief doctors. We may not all need this but its nice to know its there.
This is bad because it's a slippery slope where at some point you will have to justify your right to live or they will kill you.
An outcome that has put many peoples hearts and minds at ease.
Daniel Andrews our premier (although i dont always agree with him) has made a few brave decisions....and this was an exelent result. Passed by ten votes. So not a slim margin. (47 to 37).
Its strict legislation but it has passed.
Basically, you must have 6to 12 months to live, in agony that medication will not ileviate. And permission of two chief doctors. We may not all need this but its nice to know its there.
This is bad because it's a slippery slope where at some point you will have to justify your right to live or they will kill you.
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
xfrodobagginsx;1513567 wrote: This is bad because it's a slippery slope where at some point you will have to justify your right to live or they will kill you.
Your grasp of the written word is appalling.
Your grasp of the written word is appalling.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
xfrodobagginsx;1513567 wrote: This is bad because it's a slippery slope where at some point you will have to justify your right to live or they will kill you.
A bit like authorized Christians converting Jews at sword-point and then having them burned at the stake for still being Jewish, by the sound of it. Or like authorized Christians torturing women into confessing witchcraft, so they could burn them at the stake too. These being real events with hundreds of thousands dead, as opposed to hypothetical unlikely what-if guesses with no dead at all. Your notion of God smells of an evil well past its use-by date.
A bit like authorized Christians converting Jews at sword-point and then having them burned at the stake for still being Jewish, by the sound of it. Or like authorized Christians torturing women into confessing witchcraft, so they could burn them at the stake too. These being real events with hundreds of thousands dead, as opposed to hypothetical unlikely what-if guesses with no dead at all. Your notion of God smells of an evil well past its use-by date.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
If you're a christian suicide is a mortal sin and that is the origin of their moral dilema - which is fine if that is what they want to believe but they have no right to force others to live by their beliefs. They also used to believe suffering in childbirth was a woman's lot and the will of god and refused the use of anaesthetics .
https://www.ft.com/content/1e2ce5d6-aad ... 0077b07658
Doctors disagreed sharply on the risks of anaesthesia. Chloroform could complicate births, advised one obstetrician, Professor Charles Meigs: painful contractions during labour were “natural and physiological forces that the Divinity has ordained us to enjoy or to sufferâ€. When the Queen was again pregnant in 1850 her doctors – Sir James Clark and Charles Locock – consulted the leading London anaesthetist of the time, John Snow, later famous for his work on cholera. But prudence again won out and the Queen was denied chloroform.
In the UK they will dope somebody terminally ill and in pain until they pass peacefully and respect the DNR request of the patient there are circumstamces when that is the best option, I'm sure in the past doctors will have quietly administered a fatal dose of painkiller it should be something between the doctor and the patient - watching someone in pain even while unconscious when you know the end is inevitable is no fun. To watch someone in pain while fully compos mentis and then tell them they have no right to choose to die is something only the sanctimonious can do. Suiffering is not the road to heaven why does anyone give credence to that nonsense.
posted by xfrodobagginsx
This is bad because it's a slippery slope where at some point you will have to justify your right to live or they will kill you.
Why do you think people are out to kill you?
https://www.ft.com/content/1e2ce5d6-aad ... 0077b07658
Doctors disagreed sharply on the risks of anaesthesia. Chloroform could complicate births, advised one obstetrician, Professor Charles Meigs: painful contractions during labour were “natural and physiological forces that the Divinity has ordained us to enjoy or to sufferâ€. When the Queen was again pregnant in 1850 her doctors – Sir James Clark and Charles Locock – consulted the leading London anaesthetist of the time, John Snow, later famous for his work on cholera. But prudence again won out and the Queen was denied chloroform.
In the UK they will dope somebody terminally ill and in pain until they pass peacefully and respect the DNR request of the patient there are circumstamces when that is the best option, I'm sure in the past doctors will have quietly administered a fatal dose of painkiller it should be something between the doctor and the patient - watching someone in pain even while unconscious when you know the end is inevitable is no fun. To watch someone in pain while fully compos mentis and then tell them they have no right to choose to die is something only the sanctimonious can do. Suiffering is not the road to heaven why does anyone give credence to that nonsense.
posted by xfrodobagginsx
This is bad because it's a slippery slope where at some point you will have to justify your right to live or they will kill you.
Why do you think people are out to kill you?
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Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
Bruv;1513569 wrote: Your grasp of the written word is appalling.
Take it in the words of the Wacky Liberal Hero George Bernard Shaw:
Take it in the words of the Wacky Liberal Hero George Bernard Shaw:
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
The religious have been justifying who has the right to exist, who is worthy, who is legitimate or illegitimate who is human or who is not as human as they are since religion was invented. Racism is a religious construct to justify subjugating and enslaving entire people because the colour of their skin marked them out as inferior it's an execrise in religious hypocrisy that they prefer to pretend never and doesn't still happen.
George bernard shaw hardly qualifies as a liberal his views on eugenics alone exclude him from that label as would his support of stalin, mussolini and hitler. I take it you are an american as most americans seem to have little idea what qualifies as liberal ideals or thinking.
George bernard shaw hardly qualifies as a liberal his views on eugenics alone exclude him from that label as would his support of stalin, mussolini and hitler. I take it you are an american as most americans seem to have little idea what qualifies as liberal ideals or thinking.
- magentaflame
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Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
Or socialism.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
magentaflame;1513606 wrote: Or socialism.
Democratic Socialism is a fine idea. However, putting it into practice in the modern world, As Venezuela has learned, is far more difficult than it ought to be.
Democratic Socialism is a fine idea. However, putting it into practice in the modern world, As Venezuela has learned, is far more difficult than it ought to be.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
LarsMac;1513609 wrote: Democratic Socialism is a fine idea. However, putting it into practice in the modern world, As Venezuela has learned, is far more difficult than it ought to be.
It has been said there was a capitalist conspiracy working against the Venezuelans, I am not clever enough to understand how it works.
It has been said there was a capitalist conspiracy working against the Venezuelans, I am not clever enough to understand how it works.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
gmc;1513605 wrote: The religious have been justifying who has the right to exist, who is worthy, who is legitimate or illegitimate who is human or who is not as human as they are since religion was invented. Racism is a religious construct to justify subjugating and enslaving entire people because the colour of their skin marked them out as inferior it's an execrise in religious hypocrisy that they prefer to pretend never and doesn't still happen.
George bernard shaw hardly qualifies as a liberal his views on eugenics alone exclude him from that label as would his support of stalin, mussolini and hitler. I take it you are an american as most americans seem to have little idea what qualifies as liberal ideals or thinking.
He is a liberal hero. He was a Marxist. He was a far left nut.
George bernard shaw hardly qualifies as a liberal his views on eugenics alone exclude him from that label as would his support of stalin, mussolini and hitler. I take it you are an american as most americans seem to have little idea what qualifies as liberal ideals or thinking.
He is a liberal hero. He was a Marxist. He was a far left nut.
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
LarsMac;1513609 wrote: Democratic Socialism is a fine idea. However, putting it into practice in the modern world, As Venezuela has learned, is far more difficult than it ought to be.
You do realise that most of the european countries have social democratic parties running them and have had since the end of ww2? - apart from spain that has the fascists in ascendency again.
Far-right protesters give fascist salutes in Madrid as thousands rally over Catalonia crisis | The Independent
Sadly the right is making a comeback in the UK and europe
posted byxfrodobagginsx
He is a liberal hero. He was a Marxist. He was a far left nut.
You rather prove my point, you can't be a liberal and a marxist the two are mutually exclusive. You now have a right wing government in the US backed up by the christian right hell bent it seems on destroying liberal democracy. Enjoy
You do realise that most of the european countries have social democratic parties running them and have had since the end of ww2? - apart from spain that has the fascists in ascendency again.
Far-right protesters give fascist salutes in Madrid as thousands rally over Catalonia crisis | The Independent
Sadly the right is making a comeback in the UK and europe
posted byxfrodobagginsx
He is a liberal hero. He was a Marxist. He was a far left nut.
You rather prove my point, you can't be a liberal and a marxist the two are mutually exclusive. You now have a right wing government in the US backed up by the christian right hell bent it seems on destroying liberal democracy. Enjoy
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
xfrodobagginsx;1513620 wrote: He is a liberal hero. He was a Marxist. He was a far left nut.
What about communist ? Why leave that one out ?
What about communist ? Why leave that one out ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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Bruv;1513630 wrote: What about communist ? Why leave that one out ?
He was a Communist. So anyway, he is just one example of how far left ideology ends up.
He was a Communist. So anyway, he is just one example of how far left ideology ends up.
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Americans often aren't aware that liberalism over here isn't what they think of as liberalism over there.
Liberalism over here is about the maximum freedom of the individual compatible with a free and fair society. It looks back to Wilberforce and the Abolition of Slavery for its inspiration. It believes in private property, equality before the law and that people should be able to go as far as their talent will take them regardless of race, colour or creed.
It is therefore completely incompatible with Marxism or any form or communism which does not believe in private property, puts the convenience of the government above the law and people's talents entirely at the disposal of the State.
Liberalism over here is about the maximum freedom of the individual compatible with a free and fair society. It looks back to Wilberforce and the Abolition of Slavery for its inspiration. It believes in private property, equality before the law and that people should be able to go as far as their talent will take them regardless of race, colour or creed.
It is therefore completely incompatible with Marxism or any form or communism which does not believe in private property, puts the convenience of the government above the law and people's talents entirely at the disposal of the State.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
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Clodhopper;1513710 wrote: Americans often aren't aware that liberalism over here isn't what they think of as liberalism over there.
Liberalism over here is about the maximum freedom of the individual compatible with a free and fair society. It looks back to Wilberforce and the Abolition of Slavery for its inspiration. It believes in private property, equality before the law and that people should be able to go as far as their talent will take them regardless of race, colour or creed.
It is therefore completely incompatible with Marxism or any form or communism which does not believe in private property, puts the convenience of the government above the law and people's talents entirely at the disposal of the State.
Maximum freedom for Liberals, as long as your not a Christian, Conservative, Pro Traditional Values, Pro Christian Values...basically as long as you agree with the Liberals. How are those who speak out against radical islam treated?
Liberalism over here is about the maximum freedom of the individual compatible with a free and fair society. It looks back to Wilberforce and the Abolition of Slavery for its inspiration. It believes in private property, equality before the law and that people should be able to go as far as their talent will take them regardless of race, colour or creed.
It is therefore completely incompatible with Marxism or any form or communism which does not believe in private property, puts the convenience of the government above the law and people's talents entirely at the disposal of the State.
Maximum freedom for Liberals, as long as your not a Christian, Conservative, Pro Traditional Values, Pro Christian Values...basically as long as you agree with the Liberals. How are those who speak out against radical islam treated?
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Is English your first language Bilbo ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
xfrodobagginsx;1513724 wrote: Maximum freedom for Liberals, as long as your not a Christian, Conservative, Pro Traditional Values, Pro Christian Values...basically as long as you agree with the Liberals. How are those who speak out against radical islam treated?
The religious bleat about how their religious freedom is infringed upon when they are prevented from discriminating against people whose lifestyles they disapprove of and they are stopped from imposing their ridiculous belief system on others and can't grasp that no one is stopping them going to church or living their lives as they choose stop feeling sorry fornyourselves and be grateful you ove in a liberal democracy. In a religious society there is no freedom and no such concept as human rights,
How are those who speak out against radical islam treated?
In saudi arabia they get imprisoned without trial.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/09/15/sau ... s-arrested
In america you can call donald trump a wanker and it's not a criminal offence even if donald thinks no one should take the piss out of the president. That liberal democracy enjoy the last few days of it.
The religious bleat about how their religious freedom is infringed upon when they are prevented from discriminating against people whose lifestyles they disapprove of and they are stopped from imposing their ridiculous belief system on others and can't grasp that no one is stopping them going to church or living their lives as they choose stop feeling sorry fornyourselves and be grateful you ove in a liberal democracy. In a religious society there is no freedom and no such concept as human rights,
How are those who speak out against radical islam treated?
In saudi arabia they get imprisoned without trial.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/09/15/sau ... s-arrested
In america you can call donald trump a wanker and it's not a criminal offence even if donald thinks no one should take the piss out of the president. That liberal democracy enjoy the last few days of it.
- magentaflame
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The upper house in victoria are into their 33rd hour of debating.
It failed to get through the upper house in NSW.
It failed to get through the upper house in NSW.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
- magentaflame
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Hooray! You can now die with dignity in victoria
Welll just an update. It past the upper house. You can now die with dignity in the state of Victoria.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!