I came across this TV mini-series last night and found it fascinating.
It's about Jacob and his twelve sons (Genesis chapter 34) but is told from the perspective of his one daughter (Dinah) and, although it's a Biblical subject the treatment is human, straightforward and it does not gloss over or attempt to justify - the end of the second episode covers the son's massacre of the men of the city of Shechem.
Has anyone else seen it? What did you think?
If not, I can thoroughly recommend it.
The Red Tent
The Red Tent
They did rather ask for it, if I recall.
In the unlikely event of the BBC scheduling the series I shall bookmark it.
In the unlikely event of the BBC scheduling the series I shall bookmark it.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The Red Tent
spot;1509318 wrote: They did rather ask for it, if I recall.
In the unlikely event of the BBC scheduling the series I shall bookmark it.
The Drama channel on a Sunday evening or UKTV Play anytime.
In the unlikely event of the BBC scheduling the series I shall bookmark it.
The Drama channel on a Sunday evening or UKTV Play anytime.
The Red Tent
I have looked on iPlayer and I can see neither.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The Red Tent
spot;1509318 wrote: They did rather ask for it, if I recall.
In the unlikely event of the BBC scheduling the series I shall bookmark it.
Only remotely if you believe that women are the property of their menfolk and then I would argue not.
The brothers set the bride price (and a rather stiff one at that) and the bride price was paid in full. It was only after the bride price had been paid that two of the brothers with their men committed the massacre.
Either they should have refused to set a price and declared a feud or they should have accepted the situation as being resolved once the price had been paid - to accept the payment and then commit the massacre cannot be anything but wrong.
In the unlikely event of the BBC scheduling the series I shall bookmark it.
Only remotely if you believe that women are the property of their menfolk and then I would argue not.
The brothers set the bride price (and a rather stiff one at that) and the bride price was paid in full. It was only after the bride price had been paid that two of the brothers with their men committed the massacre.
Either they should have refused to set a price and declared a feud or they should have accepted the situation as being resolved once the price had been paid - to accept the payment and then commit the massacre cannot be anything but wrong.
The Red Tent
Bryn Mawr;1509328 wrote: Only remotely if you believe that women are the property of their menfolk
You're discussing a tale set in the bronze age. I'm not sure where you would find any other sort of society in the ancient near east. The story would be out of context if you changed its setting to the 1950s, though I bet you could at feasibly do that too.
Hamor the father of Shechem went out unto Jacob to commune with him. And the sons of Jacob came out of the field when they heard it: and the men were grieved, and they were very wroth, because he had wrought folly in Israel in lying with Jacob's daughter: which thing ought not to be done.
Getting the entire village to circumcise themselves was a ploy to make them incapable of resisting an attack later in the week, you'd think. And the original makes no suggestion that Dinah consented to marriage, " he took her, and lay with her" sounds like he didn't make much of an effort to get her consent beforehand.
Should he deal with our sister as with an harlot?
If not, how shall we revenge? - that last bit's more Shakespearean than Biblical but you get the drift.
I finished Howard Jacobson's Shylock Is My Name: a novel, Hogarth 2016 a few weeks ago, it's well up to his standard, you might enjoy it and it's relevant. And his Pussy too, which is timely outrage at the Trump presidency though off topic.
You're discussing a tale set in the bronze age. I'm not sure where you would find any other sort of society in the ancient near east. The story would be out of context if you changed its setting to the 1950s, though I bet you could at feasibly do that too.
Hamor the father of Shechem went out unto Jacob to commune with him. And the sons of Jacob came out of the field when they heard it: and the men were grieved, and they were very wroth, because he had wrought folly in Israel in lying with Jacob's daughter: which thing ought not to be done.
Getting the entire village to circumcise themselves was a ploy to make them incapable of resisting an attack later in the week, you'd think. And the original makes no suggestion that Dinah consented to marriage, " he took her, and lay with her" sounds like he didn't make much of an effort to get her consent beforehand.
Should he deal with our sister as with an harlot?
If not, how shall we revenge? - that last bit's more Shakespearean than Biblical but you get the drift.
I finished Howard Jacobson's Shylock Is My Name: a novel, Hogarth 2016 a few weeks ago, it's well up to his standard, you might enjoy it and it's relevant. And his Pussy too, which is timely outrage at the Trump presidency though off topic.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The Red Tent
They killed all the man enslaved the women and took all the land and possessions. How did they ask for that? Genocidal warfare is as old as mankind only the religious pretend moral justification for it.
The Red Tent
gmc;1509333 wrote: They killed all the man enslaved the women and took all the land and possessions. How did they ask for that? Genocidal warfare is as old as mankind only the religious pretend moral justification for it.
You're discussing a tale set in the bronze age.
It's a village, not a people. A people, it's genocide. A village, it's a raid.
The raiders are pre-Mosaic, they've never even heard of the God of Moses, they worship idols. The very next book in Genesis starts "Jacob said unto his household, and to all that were with him, Put away the strange gods that are among you, and be clean, and change your garments". They are not raiding this village because an almighty God has told them to, they're raiding this village to avenge the rape of their sister and steal some booty.
You're discussing a tale set in the bronze age.
It's a village, not a people. A people, it's genocide. A village, it's a raid.
The raiders are pre-Mosaic, they've never even heard of the God of Moses, they worship idols. The very next book in Genesis starts "Jacob said unto his household, and to all that were with him, Put away the strange gods that are among you, and be clean, and change your garments". They are not raiding this village because an almighty God has told them to, they're raiding this village to avenge the rape of their sister and steal some booty.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The Red Tent
spot;1509330 wrote: You're discussing a tale set in the bronze age. I'm not sure where you would find any other sort of society in the ancient near east. The story would be out of context if you changed its setting to the 1950s, though I bet you could at feasibly do that too.
Hamor the father of Shechem went out unto Jacob to commune with him. And the sons of Jacob came out of the field when they heard it: and the men were grieved, and they were very wroth, because he had wrought folly in Israel in lying with Jacob's daughter: which thing ought not to be done.
Getting the entire village to circumcise themselves was a ploy to make them incapable of resisting an attack later in the week, you'd think. And the original makes no suggestion that Dinah consented to marriage, " he took her, and lay with her" sounds like he didn't make much of an effort to get her consent beforehand.
Should he deal with our sister as with an harlot?
If not, how shall we revenge? - that last bit's more Shakespearean than Biblical but you get the drift.
I finished Howard Jacobson's Shylock Is My Name: a novel, Hogarth 2016 a few weeks ago, it's well up to his standard, you might enjoy it and it's relevant. And his Pussy too, which is timely outrage at the Trump presidency though off topic.
Selective quoting - you dropped the bit where I accepted that was the way of life then and said that, even so, I would argue that they were wrong.
As I said :-
Either they should have refused to set a price and declared a feud or they should have accepted the situation as being resolved once the price had been paid - to accept the payment and then commit the massacre cannot be anything but wrong.
Hamor the father of Shechem went out unto Jacob to commune with him. And the sons of Jacob came out of the field when they heard it: and the men were grieved, and they were very wroth, because he had wrought folly in Israel in lying with Jacob's daughter: which thing ought not to be done.
Getting the entire village to circumcise themselves was a ploy to make them incapable of resisting an attack later in the week, you'd think. And the original makes no suggestion that Dinah consented to marriage, " he took her, and lay with her" sounds like he didn't make much of an effort to get her consent beforehand.
Should he deal with our sister as with an harlot?
If not, how shall we revenge? - that last bit's more Shakespearean than Biblical but you get the drift.
I finished Howard Jacobson's Shylock Is My Name: a novel, Hogarth 2016 a few weeks ago, it's well up to his standard, you might enjoy it and it's relevant. And his Pussy too, which is timely outrage at the Trump presidency though off topic.
Selective quoting - you dropped the bit where I accepted that was the way of life then and said that, even so, I would argue that they were wrong.
As I said :-
Either they should have refused to set a price and declared a feud or they should have accepted the situation as being resolved once the price had been paid - to accept the payment and then commit the massacre cannot be anything but wrong.
The Red Tent
Bryn Mawr;1509339 wrote: to accept the payment and then commit the massacre cannot be anything but wrong
I suggested there was subterfuge involved. In order to gain the advantage, Jacob's tribe pretended to make a deal. Part of the deal incapacitated the menfolk temporarily, allowing the massacre to succeed. Nothing in the story suggests that the tribe intended to accept payment at any stage, merely that they wanted the villagers prostrate after they'd each cut their own foreskins off.
I've always thought all these Genesis stories were meant to be told around night-time campfires and consequently carry a hefty dose of slap-thigh comedy.
I suggested there was subterfuge involved. In order to gain the advantage, Jacob's tribe pretended to make a deal. Part of the deal incapacitated the menfolk temporarily, allowing the massacre to succeed. Nothing in the story suggests that the tribe intended to accept payment at any stage, merely that they wanted the villagers prostrate after they'd each cut their own foreskins off.
I've always thought all these Genesis stories were meant to be told around night-time campfires and consequently carry a hefty dose of slap-thigh comedy.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The Red Tent
spot;1509343 wrote: I've always thought all these Genesis stories were meant to be told around night-time campfires and consequently carry a hefty dose of slap-thigh comedy.I've never thought of it that way but makes perfect sense.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
The Red Tent
spot;1509343 wrote: I suggested there was subterfuge involved. In order to gain the advantage, Jacob's tribe pretended to make a deal. Part of the deal incapacitated the menfolk temporarily, allowing the massacre to succeed. Nothing in the story suggests that the tribe intended to accept payment at any stage, merely that they wanted the villagers prostrate after they'd each cut their own foreskins off.
I've always thought all these Genesis stories were meant to be told around night-time campfires and consequently carry a hefty dose of slap-thigh comedy.
The way that they achieved it is immaterial, they set the rules and accepted the payment, what happened afterwards was totally wrong.
I've always thought all these Genesis stories were meant to be told around night-time campfires and consequently carry a hefty dose of slap-thigh comedy.
The way that they achieved it is immaterial, they set the rules and accepted the payment, what happened afterwards was totally wrong.
The Red Tent
Bryn Mawr;1509345 wrote: The way that they achieved it is immaterial, they set the rules and accepted the payment, what happened afterwards was totally wrong.
This is an interesting exchange between two brothers, the older holding out the serious moral value and the younger seeing jest.
How many brothers are there in total and where in the order are the two of you? I'm guessing Bryn is the oldest and spot being next.
This is an interesting exchange between two brothers, the older holding out the serious moral value and the younger seeing jest.
How many brothers are there in total and where in the order are the two of you? I'm guessing Bryn is the oldest and spot being next.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
The Red Tent
posted by spot
I've always thought all these Genesis stories were meant to be told around night-time campfires and consequently carry a hefty dose of slap-thigh comedy.
Interesting way of looking at it.
I've always thought all these Genesis stories were meant to be told around night-time campfires and consequently carry a hefty dose of slap-thigh comedy.
Interesting way of looking at it.
The Red Tent
I don't think I would play nice with a dirtbag who raped my sister.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
The Red Tent
Bryn Mawr;1509345 wrote: The way that they achieved it is immaterial, they set the rules and accepted the payment, what happened afterwards was totally wrong.English folklore is replete with examples of one clan or other, invariably English, lying through their teeth and then pulling a fast one on the God-fearing border families of either Scotland or Wales. Or, if we expand the notion of borders, Ireland too. What is unacceptable is that the English were usually the stronger force and had the upper hand to begin with. Presumably they lied not through necessity but to add insult to the injury they inflicted. We then did the same relentlessly wherever we spread the Empire, to any indigenous people we encountered. Even when the colonies rebelled against their mother country the colonists continued to lie as they reduced all neighboring first peoples to destitution. I wouldn't be surprised if the Biblical upbringing these Empire-builders absorbed at home and at school gave them a sense of entitlement to lie with such impunity.
Ahso!;1509346 wrote: This is an interesting exchange between two brothers, the older holding out the serious moral value and the younger seeing jest.
How many brothers are there in total and where in the order are the two of you? I'm guessing Bryn is the oldest and spot being next.
That is a question the two of us have dodged over the last decade on this site. We have neither of us offered biographical notes other than saying we have so many grandchildren we'd need to ask around to find the present total.
We never had siblings. I have inflicted five children on the world, the youngest of whom I'm still hand-rearing. Bryn's (despite his being my junior) have all successfully established households of their own, leaving him more free to travel.
Ahso!;1509346 wrote: This is an interesting exchange between two brothers, the older holding out the serious moral value and the younger seeing jest.
How many brothers are there in total and where in the order are the two of you? I'm guessing Bryn is the oldest and spot being next.
That is a question the two of us have dodged over the last decade on this site. We have neither of us offered biographical notes other than saying we have so many grandchildren we'd need to ask around to find the present total.
We never had siblings. I have inflicted five children on the world, the youngest of whom I'm still hand-rearing. Bryn's (despite his being my junior) have all successfully established households of their own, leaving him more free to travel.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The Red Tent
spot;1509359 wrote:
That is a question the two of us have dodged over the last decade on this site. We have neither of us offered biographical notes other than saying we have so many grandchildren we'd need to ask around to find the present total.
We never had siblings. I have inflicted five children on the world, the youngest of whom I'm still hand-rearing. Bryn's (despite his being my junior) have all successfully established households of their own, leaving him more free to travel.This is a surprise to me. I recall Bryn posting a few years ago that he was then in his seventies. A post, I might add, that appeared to have a devastating effect on Lon because he was surprised to learn that Bryn was older than him.
Oh well, an interesting exchange between the two of you none the less. Sorry to sidetrack you.
That is a question the two of us have dodged over the last decade on this site. We have neither of us offered biographical notes other than saying we have so many grandchildren we'd need to ask around to find the present total.
We never had siblings. I have inflicted five children on the world, the youngest of whom I'm still hand-rearing. Bryn's (despite his being my junior) have all successfully established households of their own, leaving him more free to travel.This is a surprise to me. I recall Bryn posting a few years ago that he was then in his seventies. A post, I might add, that appeared to have a devastating effect on Lon because he was surprised to learn that Bryn was older than him.
Oh well, an interesting exchange between the two of you none the less. Sorry to sidetrack you.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
The Red Tent
spot;1509359 wrote: English folklore is replete with examples of one clan or other, invariably English, lying through their teeth and then pulling a fast one on the God-fearing border families of either Scotland or Wales. Or, if we expand the notion of borders, Ireland too. What is unacceptable is that the English were usually the stronger force and had the upper hand to begin with. Presumably they lied not through necessity but to add insult to the injury they inflicted. We then did the same relentlessly wherever we spread the Empire, to any indigenous people we encountered. Even when the colonies rebelled against their mother country the colonists continued to lie as they reduced all neighboring first peoples to destitution. I wouldn't be surprised if the Biblical upbringing these Empire-builders absorbed at home and at school gave them a sense of entitlement to lie with such impunity.
My specific objection is that this is a not a family of brigands from the borderlands, it's a family that the Bible holds up as the chosen of God, indeed, the descendants of one of the murderers went on to become the anointed priesthood and, as such, the arbiters of morals and ethics for the people of Israel.
For them to act in such an immoral fashion is doubly wrong.
My specific objection is that this is a not a family of brigands from the borderlands, it's a family that the Bible holds up as the chosen of God, indeed, the descendants of one of the murderers went on to become the anointed priesthood and, as such, the arbiters of morals and ethics for the people of Israel.
For them to act in such an immoral fashion is doubly wrong.
The Red Tent
Ahso!;1509369 wrote: This is a surprise to me. I recall Bryn posting a few years ago that he was then in his seventies. A post, I might add, that appeared to have a devastating effect on Lon because he was surprised to learn that Bryn was older than him.
Oh well, an interesting exchange between the two of you none the less. Sorry to sidetrack you.
I don't remember posting that I was in my seventies but I seem to recall that I posted at on time that I was around when Victoria came to the throne
I'm as old as I feel and sometimes I feel very old indeed but for all of that I'm nearly four years younger than Spot
Oh well, an interesting exchange between the two of you none the less. Sorry to sidetrack you.
I don't remember posting that I was in my seventies but I seem to recall that I posted at on time that I was around when Victoria came to the throne
I'm as old as I feel and sometimes I feel very old indeed but for all of that I'm nearly four years younger than Spot
The Red Tent
Bryn Mawr;1509370 wrote: My specific objection is that this is a not a family of brigands from the borderlands, it's a family that the Bible holds up as the chosen of God, indeed, the descendants of one of the murderers went on to become the anointed priesthood and, as such, the arbiters of morals and ethics for the people of Israel.
For them to act in such an immoral fashion is doubly wrong.
Morality is relative especially to a religious person. Read the bible it's OK to lie to someone of as different faith or take their land and women because they are not of your faith on the other hand it's immoral to cheat a fellow believer. The bits about who can be enslaved and under what ciurcumstances are particularly enlightening. The chosen people can take what they want and by the way the rights of women don't feature at all since they are cursed by god and should know their place.
For them to act in such an immoral fashion is doubly wrong.
Morality is relative especially to a religious person. Read the bible it's OK to lie to someone of as different faith or take their land and women because they are not of your faith on the other hand it's immoral to cheat a fellow believer. The bits about who can be enslaved and under what ciurcumstances are particularly enlightening. The chosen people can take what they want and by the way the rights of women don't feature at all since they are cursed by god and should know their place.
The Red Tent
tude dog;1509350 wrote: I don't think I would play nice with a dirtbag who raped my sister.
There's no suggestion of rape in the Bible, just that the couple consummated the engagement rather than the marriage :-
And his soul clave unto Dinah and he loved the damsel and spake kindly unto her. And he spake unto his father saying "Get me this damsel to wife"
Indeed, the Bible states that Shechem was honourable and that the sons of Jacob acted deceitfully.
There's no suggestion of rape in the Bible, just that the couple consummated the engagement rather than the marriage :-
And his soul clave unto Dinah and he loved the damsel and spake kindly unto her. And he spake unto his father saying "Get me this damsel to wife"
Indeed, the Bible states that Shechem was honourable and that the sons of Jacob acted deceitfully.
The Red Tent
gmc;1509373 wrote: Morality is relative especially to a religious person. Read the bible it's OK to lie to someone of as different faith or take their land and women because they are not of your faith on the other hand it's immoral to cheat a fellow believer. The bits about who can be enslaved and under what ciurcumstances are particularly enlightening. The chosen people can take what they want and by the way the rights of women don't feature at all since they are cursed by god and should know their place.
And for this reason I've always seen the Old Testament as a history of the people rather than scripture.
Historically Christianity grew out of Judaism and therefore included the Torah into their scripture. Why the council of Nicosia felt the need to go further than that and include the histories I do not know.
Of course, being Genesis, this story is part of the Pentateuch anyway.
And for this reason I've always seen the Old Testament as a history of the people rather than scripture.
Historically Christianity grew out of Judaism and therefore included the Torah into their scripture. Why the council of Nicosia felt the need to go further than that and include the histories I do not know.
Of course, being Genesis, this story is part of the Pentateuch anyway.
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
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Just to add that in societies where oral history is the only means of transmission of ideas down generations, stories are very powerful things indeed. So while there would likely be some comic elements, mostly they deal with much more serious stuff and give examples of how to deal with issues and people and how they worked in the past. The Old Testament is an example, imo, as are the Icelandic Sagas or the Mabinogion or the Iliad and so on.
...I also wonder if the Old Testament God is in fact a petrochemical/geological phenomenon: They are wandering around in a region where natural crude is at or close below the surface of the earth, they follow a pillar of smoke and fire, talk to a burning bush and have walls fall down...
...I also wonder if the Old Testament God is in fact a petrochemical/geological phenomenon: They are wandering around in a region where natural crude is at or close below the surface of the earth, they follow a pillar of smoke and fire, talk to a burning bush and have walls fall down...
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
The Red Tent
Clodhopper;1509391 wrote: ...I also wonder if the Old Testament God is in fact a petrochemical/geological phenomenon: They are wandering around in a region where natural crude is at or close below the surface of the earth, they follow a pillar of smoke and fire, talk to a burning bush and have walls fall down...
All of which is common on the East side of the Red Sea, in Asir and the Yemen, but not anywhere west of the Jordan or the Sinai. There's a famous 80s book, The Bible Came From Arabia, which goes into convincing detail.
All of which is common on the East side of the Red Sea, in Asir and the Yemen, but not anywhere west of the Jordan or the Sinai. There's a famous 80s book, The Bible Came From Arabia, which goes into convincing detail.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The Red Tent
Bryn Mawr;1509374 wrote: There's no suggestion of rape in the Bible, just that the couple consummated the engagement rather than the marriage :-
And his soul clave unto Dinah and he loved the damsel and spake kindly unto her. And he spake unto his father saying "Get me this damsel to wife"
Indeed, the Bible states that Shechem was honourable and that the sons of Jacob acted deceitfully.
Here is one translation.
he took her, lay with her, and violated her.
Other translations are like humbled and dishonored. In context sounds like by force.
Anyway, her brothers were not in the mood to have any of that.
And his soul clave unto Dinah and he loved the damsel and spake kindly unto her. And he spake unto his father saying "Get me this damsel to wife"
Indeed, the Bible states that Shechem was honourable and that the sons of Jacob acted deceitfully.
Here is one translation.
he took her, lay with her, and violated her.
Other translations are like humbled and dishonored. In context sounds like by force.
Anyway, her brothers were not in the mood to have any of that.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
The Red Tent
tude dog;1509403 wrote: Here is one translation.
he took her, lay with her, and violated her.
Other translations are like humbled and dishonored. In context sounds like by force.
Anyway, her brothers were not in the mood to have any of that.
There are many translations and each has its own agenda, the one I gave was from the KJV and had no such connotation.
Whatever, had the brothers acted with honour then they would have said that they could not accept redress. As it was they acted deceitfully and threw away their honour.
he took her, lay with her, and violated her.
Other translations are like humbled and dishonored. In context sounds like by force.
Anyway, her brothers were not in the mood to have any of that.
There are many translations and each has its own agenda, the one I gave was from the KJV and had no such connotation.
Whatever, had the brothers acted with honour then they would have said that they could not accept redress. As it was they acted deceitfully and threw away their honour.
The Red Tent
Bryn Mawr;1509374 wrote: There's no suggestion of rape in the Bible, just that the couple consummated the engagement rather than the marriage :-
And his soul clave unto Dinah and he loved the damsel and spake kindly unto her. And he spake unto his father saying "Get me this damsel to wife"
Indeed, the Bible states that Shechem was honourable and that the sons of Jacob acted deceitfully.
Well, From What I can see, there did seem to be an issue:
KJV And Dinah the daughter of Leah, which she bare unto Jacob, went out to see the daughters of the land.
2 And when Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite, prince of the country, saw her, he took her, and lay with her, and defiled her.
NIV
Now Dinah, the daughter Leah had borne to Jacob, went out to visit the women of the land. 2 When Shechem son of Hamor the Hivite, the ruler of that area, saw her, he took her and raped her. 3 His heart was drawn to Dinah daughter of Jacob; he loved the young woman and spoke tenderly to her. 4 And Shechem said to his father Hamor, “Get me this girl as my wife.â€
If someone defiled my sister, or daughter, I think that I would be a bit peeved, to say the least. Of course the KJV used language that might be interpreted to mean he seduced her, and maybe had implied permission. In interesting twist of words in a world dominated by males. (That conversation goes on all too often in today's world. )
And his soul clave unto Dinah and he loved the damsel and spake kindly unto her. And he spake unto his father saying "Get me this damsel to wife"
Indeed, the Bible states that Shechem was honourable and that the sons of Jacob acted deceitfully.
Well, From What I can see, there did seem to be an issue:
KJV And Dinah the daughter of Leah, which she bare unto Jacob, went out to see the daughters of the land.
2 And when Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite, prince of the country, saw her, he took her, and lay with her, and defiled her.
NIV
Now Dinah, the daughter Leah had borne to Jacob, went out to visit the women of the land. 2 When Shechem son of Hamor the Hivite, the ruler of that area, saw her, he took her and raped her. 3 His heart was drawn to Dinah daughter of Jacob; he loved the young woman and spoke tenderly to her. 4 And Shechem said to his father Hamor, “Get me this girl as my wife.â€
If someone defiled my sister, or daughter, I think that I would be a bit peeved, to say the least. Of course the KJV used language that might be interpreted to mean he seduced her, and maybe had implied permission. In interesting twist of words in a world dominated by males. (That conversation goes on all too often in today's world. )
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
The Red Tent
LarsMac;1509482 wrote: Well, From What I can see, there did seem to be an issue:
KJV
NIV
If someone defiled my sister, or daughter, I think that I would be a bit peeved, to say the least. Of course the KJV used language that might be interpreted to mean he seduced her, and maybe had implied permission. In interesting twist of words in a world dominated by males. (That conversation goes on all too often in today's world. )
I certainly read the defilement as spoiling the property and lessening its value in the eyes of the brothers.
It would be interesting to see the connotations in the original Aramaic as opposed to the prejudices of the translators
KJV
NIV
If someone defiled my sister, or daughter, I think that I would be a bit peeved, to say the least. Of course the KJV used language that might be interpreted to mean he seduced her, and maybe had implied permission. In interesting twist of words in a world dominated by males. (That conversation goes on all too often in today's world. )
I certainly read the defilement as spoiling the property and lessening its value in the eyes of the brothers.
It would be interesting to see the connotations in the original Aramaic as opposed to the prejudices of the translators
The Red Tent
Bryn Mawr;1509490 wrote: I certainly read the defilement as spoiling the property and lessening its value in the eyes of the brothers.
It would be interesting to see the connotations in the original Aramaic as opposed to the prejudices of the translators
Since this is from the Torah, I am not sure how Aramaic plays into it.
If we are going to allow our own prejudices to influence our interpretations, then why should we not consider those of the translators?
It would be interesting to see the connotations in the original Aramaic as opposed to the prejudices of the translators
Since this is from the Torah, I am not sure how Aramaic plays into it.
If we are going to allow our own prejudices to influence our interpretations, then why should we not consider those of the translators?
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
The Red Tent
LarsMac;1509492 wrote: Since this is from the Torah, I am not sure how Aramaic plays into it.
If we are going to allow our own prejudices to influence our interpretations, then why should we not consider those of the translators?
My understanding is that the majority of the Old Testament was written in Aramaic.
If we are going to remove prejudice from our interpretations then we *have* to go back to the original source and work from that - we still won't succeed but unless we do that we have no hope.
If we are going to allow our own prejudices to influence our interpretations, then why should we not consider those of the translators?
My understanding is that the majority of the Old Testament was written in Aramaic.
If we are going to remove prejudice from our interpretations then we *have* to go back to the original source and work from that - we still won't succeed but unless we do that we have no hope.
The Red Tent
Bryn Mawr;1509524 wrote: My understanding is that the majority of the Old Testament was written in Aramaic.
If we are going to remove prejudice from our interpretations then we *have* to go back to the original source and work from that - we still won't succeed but unless we do that we have no hope.
I believe that the scriptures were originally written in Hebrew, and while Aramaic supplanted Hebrew in common usage in the later centuries BC, the Scholars held to Hebrew.
There was a transcription to Aramaic, called the Targem, that was used for the public reading of the scriptures after Aramaic had become the common language of the People.
Perhaps one of our more scholarly members could weigh in on that?
If we are going to remove prejudice from our interpretations then we *have* to go back to the original source and work from that - we still won't succeed but unless we do that we have no hope.
I believe that the scriptures were originally written in Hebrew, and while Aramaic supplanted Hebrew in common usage in the later centuries BC, the Scholars held to Hebrew.
There was a transcription to Aramaic, called the Targem, that was used for the public reading of the scriptures after Aramaic had become the common language of the People.
Perhaps one of our more scholarly members could weigh in on that?
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
The Red Tent
Bryn Mawr;1509524 wrote: My understanding is that the majority of the Old Testament was written in Aramaic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Aramaic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Hebrew_alphabet is relevant too.
The character set in which the Old Testament was written is the Aramaic alphabet, the language is Hebrew not Aramaic other than the exceptions noted - Daniel, Ezekiel and oddments.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Aramaic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Hebrew_alphabet is relevant too.
The character set in which the Old Testament was written is the Aramaic alphabet, the language is Hebrew not Aramaic other than the exceptions noted - Daniel, Ezekiel and oddments.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.