Paris

Post by **LarsMac** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 7:08 pm

This is pretty bizarre. My heart goes out to my friends in Paris, and to the members of FG who live in France. May this be resoled quickly.

"France has declared a national state of emergency and has closed its borders after more than 120 people were killed in gun and bomb attacks in Paris."

Paris attacks: More than 120 killed at Bataclan and restaurants - BBC News

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:23 pm

Isn't often I am at a loss for words.

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:29 pm

Just breaks your heart.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:06 am

And they expect this kind of action to get the public opposed to getting involved in the battle against ISIS? The reactions I've seen so far has been that of both Neutrals & those opposed to getting involved finally agreeing that the time has come to get in there & wipe ISIS off the face of the earth.

ISIS just don't seem to get it. I imagine this is likely to be the biggest rallying campaign against them.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:15 am

Horrific.

But what is the proper reaction ?

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:26 am

Bruv;1489474 wrote: Horrific.

But what is the proper reaction ?
Do nothing & you prove that terrorism works.

Hit back - show them that it has the opposite effect.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:43 am

FourPart;1489475 wrote: Do nothing & you prove that terrorism works.

Hit back - show them that it has the opposite effect.

Hit back ? How? Where? Who?

Shooting from the hip, knee jerk reactions brought us to this situation.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:13 am

Bruv;1489476 wrote: Hit back ? How? Where? Who?

Shooting from the hip, knee jerk reactions brought us to this situation.
So I guess I'll see you at the local Mosque to be converted to Islam?

Post by **spot** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:55 am

FourPart;1489473 wrote: ISIS just don't seem to get it. I imagine this is likely to be the biggest rallying campaign against them.I believe the intention is to generate a promiscuous Western backlash against Muslims in general, which if it happened might increase ISIS recruitment. I'm all in favour of restricting the blame to illiberal fundamentalists and their paymasters. Organization and training doesn't come free.

This is definitively a criminal act, I can only hope it will be thoroughly investigated. Merely popping the names of the alleged shooters out of a hat while displaying their bodies isn't going to help, which is all that the Charlie Hebdo investigation achieved as far as I can see.

Describing last night as an 'act of war by IS', as the French President did, is meaningless and unhelpful. Islamic State is a non-national criminal clique, not a nation state. Publicly identifying and prosecuting the criminals who formed it, the criminals who fund it, the criminals who train its criminal members and organize its criminal activities, as well as the criminals who carry the guns, is helpful. Merely farting into the wind is worse than nothing, Mr Hollande, it denies reality. Find out the truth and speak it loudly when you know something.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:17 am

FourPart;1489478 wrote: So I guess I'll see you at the local Mosque to be converted to Islam?

What a bloody ridiculous reply.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:22 am

spot;1489480 wrote: I believe the intention is to generate a promiscuous Western backlash against Muslims in general, which if it happened might increase ISIS recruitment. I'm all in favour of restricting the blame to illiberal fundamentalists and their paymasters. Organization and training doesn't come free.Which I think is exactly what the west is doing fully conscious of what you said. The long plan is to get as many of these people to join, allow the organization to become so large that the groups will have to swell in size and then attack the larger groups thus killing more with each strike.

Will it work? If it does it will take a very long time, which is exactly what the US military has said it's in this for - a very long time.

The west has been doing recruiting of their own by exposing and exploiting the cultural differences that any civilized people would (and should) find objectionable, such as FGM and other female and human rights objections.

It would be nice to sit down and negotiate. However, when religion is involved, especially fundamental religious belief, that isn't going to happen. Add to that the Israel factor.

IOW - we're all f@(ked for a very long time.

If there was ever a good reason to stop reproducing for the sake of future generations, this is it. But that isn't going to happen either, because reproduce is what any and all species do when they feel threatened.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:31 am

Bruv;1489481 wrote: What a bloody ridiculous reply.Hit him back hard with one of those youtube videos of yours, Bruv. That'll teach him.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:34 am

Bruv;1489481 wrote: What a bloody ridiculous reply.

I second that!

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:49 am

Betty Boop;1489484 wrote: I second that!It wasn't as ridiculous a response as you two might think if FP was saying that that would be the consequence of not fighting back (he did indicate that he'd be there too by saying he'd see you there). It might be a reactionary response but it's one that is completely understandable. Living in Europe so close to these Islamic nations must be unsettling, at the least.

We'll have to wait and see if that is what FP was saying though.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:13 am

So, nothing in the news reports I have found gives evidence that IS, or any Muslim organization is behind these attacks.

We have two items, so far, that even hint at such.

In the BBC report:

One of the attackers was said to have shouted "God is great" in Arabic. One witness heard a gunman blaming President Hollande for intervening in Syria.

This is the evidence that is claimed to be "...the first clear evidence that Paris was once again being targeted by Islamists."

From this, Pres Hollande concludes, "this was an act of war by ISIS "

This will likely spark a series of backlash attacks against Muslims in France, and possibly other countries in Europe, and even in the Americas.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:16 am

Bruv;1489476 wrote: Hit back ? How? Where? Who?

Shooting from the hip, knee jerk reactions brought us to this situation.

George W. Bush brought us to this situation.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:18 am

LarsMac;1489486 wrote: So, nothing in the news reports I have found gives evidence that IS, or any Muslim organization is behind these attacks.

We have two items, so far, that even hint at such.

In the BBC report:

This is the evidence that is claimed to be "...the first clear evidence that Paris was once again being targeted by Islamists."

From this, Pres Hollande concludes, "this was an act of war by ISIS "

This will likely spark a series of backlash attacks against Muslims in France, and possibly other countries in Europe, and even in the Americas....Shortly after Hollande's spech, ISIS issued an official statement in French and Arabic claiming responsibility for the attacks, saying France "and those who follow in its path" are the group's "top target." The statement boasted that the targets were "specifically chosen in advance" and carried out by eight men; it also said the attacks had been mounted in retaliation for French airstrikes on ISIS-held territory and insults directed at the Prophet Mohammed, linking Friday night's carnage to the mass murder of cartoonists that took place in January at the offices of French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo.

The AP notes that while the statement was circulated by ISIS supporters, included the group's logo, and "resembled previous statements issued by the group," it was not immediately possible to confirm the authenticity of the statement.French President Hollande says ISIS is responsible for Paris shootings that killed 127.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:29 am

Ahso!;1489489 wrote: ...French President Hollande says ISIS is responsible for Paris shootings that killed 127.

In the same article:

The Associated Press notes that while the statement was circulated by ISIS supporters, included the group's logo, and "resembled previous statements issued by the group," it was not immediately possible to confirm the authenticity of the statement.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:33 am

LarsMac;1489490 wrote: In the same article:

On the other hand. today at approximately 10:20 EST AP did publish a statement that ISIS has now claimed responsibility.

Very curious.

Hollande says, it, then there is a possible claim, not substantiated, and then, half a day later, there is what appears to be an official claim.

I remain suspicious.

Post by **spot** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:45 am

I'm sure official statements are code-authenticated. Those of the IRA always were, people might remember. Otherwise any prat with a phone can spread a lie.

With the IRA one knew to a fairly certain extent what they wanted, who founded them and who funded them - private Americans to a large extent, oddly enough, for several decades. Even so it turns out, as the historical evidence from the 70s and 80s crawls toward the surface, that some of the IRA atrocities and killings were actually ordered and performed within the IRA by official British infiltrators to bolster their repute and help them rise to leadership positions. Nobody in their British chain of command, it goes without saying, is ever going to be disciplined or punished for organizing those bombings and murders.

I have no idea who runs ISIS, who designed ISIS, who funds ISIS or who enables ISIS to exist, and I don't expect to find out. I still think it's sensible to ask who benefits.

Post by **spot** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:55 am

FourPart;1489475 wrote: Do nothing & you prove that terrorism works.I'm not sure you lived through the IRA mainland bombing campaign. I did, in London. The recognized position, which had overwhelming support, was that doing nothing - continuing exactly as one would have previously - was the way to prove that the terrorist action had failed, and that if things had changed as a response then the terrorist action would have succeeded.

It would have been nice if the actual terrorists had been prosecuted instead of a bunch of entirely innocent fall-guys mopped up by the police hunt and trumpeted as the perpetrators. Any defendant will do so long as you have a corrupt police and prosecution system which doesn't blench at fabricating evidence.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:56 am

And who could possibly benefit from all of the civilized world being, once again, united against a common enemy?

Post by **spot** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:03 am

Hugh Schofield has written a worthwhile commentary.

In a million petty ways, behaviour is being altered. There are calls for off-duty police-officers to carry guns. Is this the next stage: A society fearful, and under arms?

It is all exactly as the terrorists perpetrators of these attacks want. They would like nothing more than a ratcheting up of the state's powers. After that they will try to stage another attack - proving again the government's limited effectiveness - and the far right will continue its surge.

Which is the other terrorist aim. No-one would be happier than is for Marine Le Pen to sweep to power, and French society to collapse (as it might) into warring factions.

Paris attacks: A new terrorism and fear stalks a city - BBC News

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:31 am

Ahso!;1489483 wrote: Hit him back hard with one of those youtube videos of yours, Bruv. That'll teach him.

What videos?

You come across as a very arrogant know it all, that gets his rocks off putting people down.......... Are you?

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:44 pm

LarsMac;1489486 wrote: So, nothing in the news reports I have found gives evidence that IS, or any Muslim organization is behind these attacks.

We have two items, so far, that even hint at such.

In the BBC report:

This is the evidence that is claimed to be "...the first clear evidence that Paris was once again being targeted by Islamists."

From this, Pres Hollande concludes, "this was an act of war by ISIS "

This will likely spark a series of backlash attacks against Muslims in France, and possibly other countries in Europe, and even in the Americas.

ISIS have claimed responsibility for the attack and the terrorists identified so far appear to have links to that organization.

The sad thing is that at least one of them entered Europe on a Syrian passport claiming to be fleeing ISIS.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:01 pm

Bryn Mawr;1489504 wrote: ISIS have claimed responsibility for the attack and the terrorists identified so far appear to have links to that organization.
Yes, I saw that news release, just minutes after I posted.

Bryn Mawr;1489504 wrote: The sad thing is that at least one of them entered Europe on a Syrian passport claiming to be fleeing ISIS.
I saw that one of the men had a Syrian passport.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:18 pm

LarsMac;1489505 wrote: Yes, I saw that news release, just minutes after I posted.

I saw that one of the men had a Syrian passport.

More than one and at least one of them was recorded as entering Europe through Greece as a refugee seeking asylum.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:36 pm

Bryn Mawr;1489509 wrote: More than one and at least one of them was recorded as entering Europe through Greece as a refugee seeking asylum.

So, the question is, did he deliberately enter Europe with the intent of participating in this? Was the person participating in this the actual owner of that passport?

(The news simply reports that a Syrian passport was found near the body of a suspected attacker.)

If the passport belonged to one of the attackers, what was his motivation in the attack?

We assume a lot from a very small bit of evidence.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:17 pm

LarsMac;1489513 wrote: So, the question is, did he deliberately enter Europe with the intent of participating in this? Was the person participating in this the actual owner of that passport?

(The news simply reports that a Syrian passport was found near the body of a suspected attacker.)

If the passport belonged to one of the attackers, what was his motivation in the attack?

We assume a lot from a very small bit of evidence.

I agree, there's lots more that we need to know but the reports here are that the Greeks processed the passport through their systems and the suggestion on the news programs is that the body matches the person processed :-

Paris attacks: 'Three teams' involved - prosecutor Molins - BBC News

A Syrian passport was found next to the body of one of three suicide bombers who struck near the Stade de France stadium during Friday's game, Mr Molins confirmed.

A Greek minister says the passport belonged to a Syrian refugee who had passed through the island of Leros. An Egyptian passport has also been linked to the attacks.

They also suggest that at least one of the terrorists at the Stad de France had a ticket for the game but had been refused entry to the stadium.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:24 pm

Bruv;1489499 wrote: What videos? You know, like the video you posted and asked me to watch that apparently sums me up in a comedy sketch. And you call me arrogant?

Bruv;1489499 wrote: You come across as a very arrogant know it all, that gets his rocks off putting people down.......... Are you?Let's remain on topic here. Tell me what it is in this thread that I've posted that caused me to come across as a know-it-all.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:29 pm

Ahso!;1489520 wrote: ...

Let's remain on topic here...

Excellent suggestion.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:50 pm

LarsMac;1489521 wrote: Excellent suggestion. Agreed.

Does it matter how the gunmen arrived in the country ?

The only reason for making the distinction is to stop further arrivals as if they are ALL terrorists.

They could have arrived legally on a variety of passports, or they could have slipped through the net as if fleeing the troubles in Syria, or they could even be home grown.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:05 pm

Bruv;1489525 wrote: Agreed.

Does it matter how the gunmen arrived in the country ?

The only reason for making the distinction is to stop further arrivals as if they are ALL terrorists.

They could have arrived legally on a variety of passports, or they could have slipped through the net as if fleeing the troubles in Syria, or they could even be home grown.So your accusation doesn't stand up in this thread I take it. Just for the record.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:26 pm

Bruv;1489525 wrote: Agreed.

Does it matter how the gunmen arrived in the country ?

The only reason for making the distinction is to stop further arrivals as if they are ALL terrorists.

They could have arrived legally on a variety of passports, or they could have slipped through the net as if fleeing the troubles in Syria, or they could even be home grown.

True.

One, at least, was a French national. Another was Egyptian. the rest, so far, unidentified. So it could be safe to conclude that allowing the Syrian refugees in to the EU, is not a direct link in the causal chain of these events

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:27 pm

Ahso!;1489520 wrote: Let's remain on topic here.
Especially for you...................Argument Sketch

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:42 pm

I would say that the more 'refugees' we permit to enter Europe, the greater the chances are that we are admitting terrorists under guise of 'refugee' status. Seems straightforward and logical to me. The atrocity in France may well be 'the thin end of the wedge'. Just look at the problems Sweden are having.

I am greatly saddened for the poor people who have suffered and died in Paris, but I fear they will not be the last.

Snowfire · Post by **Snowfire** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:23 am

We should remember also that a day before the French attack, there was another, largely unreported, atrocity in Beruit

A Day Before the Paris Attack, Suicide Bombers Killed 43 in Beirut - Mic

Not interesting enough for the Western press ?

No sufficient western casualties to make it relevant for our papers ?

A bit of an "oh, by the way" reporting.

And there's me listening to our press commentators, this morning on TV, stating " Well social media might be able to report these things first but the press check the facts and get them right."

Really ? Well, you missed a bit !

Post by **LarsMac** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:31 am

Snowfire;1489552 wrote: We should remember also that a day before the French attack, there was another, largely unreported, atrocity in Beruit

A Day Before the Paris Attack, Suicide Bombers Killed 43 in Beirut - Mic

Not interesting enough for the Western press ?

No sufficient western casualties to make it relevant for our papers ?

A bit of an "oh, by the way" reporting.

And there's me listening to our press commentators, this morning on TV, stating " Well social media might be able to report these things first but the press check the facts and get them right."

Really ? Well, you missed a bit !

On any other day, that news would have flooded the wires, but, timing is everything.

I do remember, we were sitting in the local diner with the news on TV, and there was a mention of the Beirut bombing, but then almost immediately every one cut to live coverage of the attacks going on in Paris.

We humans seem to have fairly short attention spans.

Post by **LarsMac** » Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:12 pm

Well, not everyone is bothered by the events in Paris.

Asia stocks surge after Wall St. takes Paris attacks in stride | Reuters

Civilization triumphs. Sorta

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:27 am

I've just watched the following video and I'm now even more scared of the future deveopments. I believe that there will be no way to stop Islam swamping the world unless somebody can persuade and convince beyond ANY doubt that what is being done by ISIS is going against all the teachings/rulings etc. in the Qu'ran, and that what these IS thugs are doing will be a sure way to prevent them getting into Jannat, the Garden of Allah. To do this will take an extreme effort of time, persuasion (absolutely convincing), and perseverence. I cannot see any person that could do this.

As several people have already said, continually bombing, killing these people and destroying their buildings, only makes martyrs of them and increases their ability to gather more and more people into their cause. So what is the answer ? How can this terrible 'war' be stopped ? Do we really want Shariah law world-wide ?

The first thing that every European country must do is CLOSE THEIR BORDERS. Then organise the return of these migrants to their own country. Whether you like it or not, we are in a state of war with ISIS, and for pity's sake don't say 'where is your proof/evidence of this ............................. IS have admitted their involvement with the Paris bombings and have admitted that Shariah will become world-wide, and that is their intention !

This video demonstrates how Shariah is taking over. It seems obvious that this is the plan, judging from how many young men and very, very few women and children are amongst these so-called migrants. I watched this video in horror. Maybe you will do the same.

Post by **spot** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:47 am

I don't know why you say it as though that's possible, Gill.

There are extreme evangelists who convert people under compulsion of death. It used to be Jesuits, for goodness sake. They died in their beds convinced they'd been right. They nevertheless failed in their absolute conviction that whatever they left alive of the world had to become Christian.

You know they existed, you know that was their policy, you know they failed. What possible reason do you have for thinking their present-day equivalents are any different? There are people trying to create a world war, yes. Some of them are Muslim, some of them are just excited by guns and design operations in the Pentagon. Add them all together and they're a vanishingly small proportion. So they're good with explosions and killing from their desk. The trick is not to believe their lies, whether you're a Muslim or a Daily Mail reeder.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:48 am

I share your concerns Gill but please don't take your information from blatant propaganda as this video clearly is.

I watched for 3 minutes which was more than enough to insult my intelligence.

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:38 am

I wonder how many atrocities, and how much rape, thuggery and general hatred it will take to convince the mainstream public that Europe, and indeed ourselves, have a real, imminent and potent threat to our way of life, and all we hold dear? Just take a look at what happened in Paris, then take a look at whats happening in Sweden right now. Now jet back 20 or so years when we weren't being overwhelmed by a tide of 'immigrants' and anyone can see things were far less dangerous and threatening.

If we do nothing to protect the things we hold dear, then these will be taken from us! Whether we like it or not, people who understand only fear or force cannot usually be persuaded by reason. I would suggest that anyone watching sees the whole 'clip' before making comment on it, or there is a danger of 'going off at half-cock'. I haven't seen any of it at this time, I merely comment on a situation that is all too plain to see. I will watch it at some stage today, and possibly make further comment at some time.

If one 'joins the dots' a rather ominous picture starts to form.

Post by **LarsMac** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:47 am

The time to close your borders has long ago passed. You should not watch such stuff. Its sole purpose is to scare you into doing things out of sheer panic that will only end badly.

Post by **spot** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:14 am

Smaug;1489741 wrote: I wonder how many atrocities, and how much rape, thuggery and general hatred it will take to convince the mainstream public that Europe, and indeed ourselves, have a real, imminent and potent threat to our way of life, and all we hold dear?It is absolutely, totally untrue and I think you're just opportunistically jumping onto a bandwagon to expose your extraordinary prejudices.

The only threat posed by terrorism is that we react hysterically instead of policing it competently, and if we could also manage to police the provocations which are feeding the terrorism that would be all the better. The Muslims living in the West - what we call the mainstream public - as well as those living in the Middle East are the intended victims of what's being done by ISIS and you're taking an active part in that process by screaming here. You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself. You're not offering the answer and demonstrating strength, you're being the problem and displaying weakness.

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:27 am

I have now seen the clip in it's chilling entirety.

My giddy godfathers!! Has anyone actually seen the clip in it's entirety? Is this the future that we're sleepwalking steadily towards? What insane and perilous times we have come to due to political correctness, 'do-gooders', jihaddis and right-wingers if someone like Nick Griffin is one of the few who's actually talking some sense on this issue!!!!!! You'v head the hatred, you've heard the agenda and yet it's still only propaganda?

WE DESERVE TO BE UTTERLY SUBJUGATED OR ERADICATED BY THESE PEOPLE BECAUSE WE REFUSE TO SEE WHAT IS RIGHT BEFORE OUR EYES!!

And at this rate, WE WILL BE!!!

Post by **spot** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:35 am

I suggest you vote for the calculating swine, that's how we change things. I'm all in favour of voting.

If you reed Robert Fisk on his interviews of Osama bin Laden, the turbaned chappie said the people he's targeting are the Muslims of the Middle East. He wanted to radicalize them so as to take over Middle Eastern countries, particularly Egypt, and swatting the US as a hornet's nest was his technique. Well, he's certainly radicalized some simply because the Bush White House jumped at the chance, it was as if Christmas had been declared permanent as far as they were concerned. Osama bin Laden was quite right in predicting how they'd respond, to such an extent that one wonders sometimes whether he was being paid to do kick the nest in the first place. Two groups, identical destinations, he didn't need paying.

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:42 am

spot;1489745 wrote: It is absolutely, totally untrue and I think you're just opportunistically jumping onto a bandwagon to expose your extraordinary prejudices.

The only threat posed by terrorism is that we react hysterically instead of policing it competently, and if we could also manage to police the provocations which are feeding the terrorism that would be all the better. The Muslims living in the West - what we call the mainstream public - as well as those living in the Middle East are the intended victims of what's being done by ISIS and you're taking an active part in that process by screaming here. You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself. You're not offering the answer and demonstrating strength, you're being the problem and displaying weakness.

You talk so blithely of prejudice; did you hear what was said/translated on the clip? DID YOU? It was naked hatred, and to pretend otherwise is to live in fools paradise!!!! Maybe you'll change your mind when they come to your door, but by then it'll probably be too late mate!! The only weakness I can see is our 'roll over' attitude here, and elsewhere in Europe. These 'migrants' are mainly young men who despise us because of our weakness, and take advantage of our generosity. I feel like a voice in the wilderness at present, but when we are 'put down' by this influx I shall remember these complacent individuals who think it can't happen merely because it's not happened yet....... We've had it easy for so long that we think it's always going to be this way.

Pure delusion!! We are being betrayed by complacency and 'ostrich syndrome' at every turn

If that's prejudice then I'm prejudiced;- in favour of survival!!

There's no fool like an old fool....And none so blind as they that WILL NOT see!!

Post by **spot** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:49 am

Smaug;1489750 wrote: did you hear what was said/translated on the clip? DID YOU?For the hundredth time, I have no flash player. I'm tethered to a weak 3G signal in the heart of the Kasbah, I couldn't play your clip even if I was so brain-dead as to accept the inherent security risk. If you actually want to distribute a coherent message, type the words out. It's called discussion.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:58 am

Pure propaganda, the links in the film are cheap and crap, some of the footage looks very old to me. It's well known that BF and their ilk are using decade old footage and trying to make out its current.

Out of interest, where are you browsing to find such clips?