Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

Is it a sin to want to open one’s eyes instead of being blind?

Is it a sin to do as scriptures urge us to do?

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Gen 3:2 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

Adam and Eve were doing exactly what we are all told by scriptures to do, yet God seemed quite upset.

Why is seeking knowledge and ignoring a vile command to remain in ignorant bliss wrong or a sin?

Are you sinning when you seek knowledge and becoming more like God?

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DL
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Post by gmc »

It's only a sin if you decide it is.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

gmc;1480242 wrote: It's only a sin if you decide it is.


True.

Care to speculate as to why Christians think it a sin to seek and gain knowledge of the moral kind?

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Gnostic Christian Bishop;1480245 wrote: True.

Care to speculate as to why Christians think it a sin to seek and gain knowledge of the moral kind?

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Simple - and the same applies to all controllng Religions. It takes control away from the "Powers That Be" within that Religion - i.e. the Priests / Imams, etc. In order for a person to truly to seek knowledge, they must first accept the premise that anything they have learned thus far may not be so. Once they do this they start thinking independantly & control of telling them how & what to think is lost over them.
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FourPart;1480249 wrote: Simple - and the same applies to all controllng Religions. It takes control away from the "Powers That Be" within that Religion - i.e. the Priests / Imams, etc. In order for a person to truly to seek knowledge, they must first accept the premise that anything they have learned thus far may not be so. Once they do this they start thinking independantly & control of telling them how & what to think is lost over them.


Your use of God as an analogy for a priest or imam is spot on.

They lie when saying come to me and I will set you free. They do not want to free. They want to enslave.

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Post by LarsMac »

My Great Grandfather said that it is a sin to NOT seek knowledge.

It is also, according to him, a sin to discourage others from seeking knowledge.

He was a Presbyterian Minister.
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Post by FourPart »

LarsMac;1480282 wrote: My Great Grandfather said that it is a sin to NOT seek knowledge.

It is also, according to him, a sin to discourage others from seeking knowledge.

He was a Presbyterian Minister.


Sounds good to me.

I could never see the sense in Religious teaching that it was a sin to aspire to do anything other than to observe established dogma as being the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth without question. Surely, if there were a God & the ability is there in all Mankind to question & learn, then it could be said that in His Grand Plan of things that it was intention that they were meant to do exactly that otherwise He wouldn't have designed them with the ability to do so in the first place - that is, of course, working on their own premise that there is a God in the first place.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

LarsMac;1480282 wrote: My Great Grandfather said that it is a sin to NOT seek knowledge.

It is also, according to him, a sin to discourage others from seeking knowledge.

He was a Presbyterian Minister.


That would have had him seeing God as a sinner.

Strange that he chose to remain in the faith.

Many who do not really believe do remain in a religion be they priest or laymen.

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Post by LarsMac »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1480289 wrote: That would have had him seeing God as a sinner.

Strange that he chose to remain in the faith.

Many who do not really believe do remain in a religion be they priest or laymen.

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DL


You do come up with some interesting notions. I'll give you that.

God said, "Seek, and ye shall find."

Pretty sure that covered knowledge.

God does not want ignorant slaves.

Only people who will tell you otherwise are the type of people who feed off the ignorant.
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Post by LarsMac »

Well, the choice is yours.

You can sit in your comfy little pew and let someone feed you dogma, and stay safe and warm, or you can get out there and see what the universe has in store for you.

Somehow, I doubt any God created the universe in all its glory, just so we could sit and sing hymns.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

LarsMac;1480291 wrote: You do come up with some interesting notions. I'll give you that.

God said, "Seek, and ye shall find."

Pretty sure that covered knowledge.

God does not want ignorant slaves.

Only people who will tell you otherwise are the type of people who feed off the ignorant.


Your last is correct and that brings Christianity and Islam to mind. They both feed of those who would deny women and gays equality. Both religions lack righteousness and justice.

God did not say "Seek, and ye shall find." Jesus did but the Father or God he sought was within him and within all of us.

Jesus' God was a living breathing God and not some guy in the sky.

Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is

in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they

say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will

precede you. Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is

outside of you. become acquainted with

will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you

will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living

Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty

and it is you who are that poverty."

If you look up Divine Council you will see what Jesus thought of who God was.

Remember that a Rabbi could overrule God even back then.

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LarsMac;1480295 wrote: Well, the choice is yours.

You can sit in your comfy little pew and let someone feed you dogma, and stay safe and warm, or you can get out there and see what the universe has in store for you.

Somehow, I doubt any God created the universe in all its glory, just so we could sit and sing hymns.


I agree. That would be quite a stupid God.

It is our human need or want that makes us want to be God's make work project for all of eternity. We forget how it really looks in practice and how no God would bother with such puny and insecure people.

We try to make ourselves so important by attaching God to ourselves.

Oh well. All we can do is blame what Freud called our Father Complex that pushes us to be the fittest of our kind.

We just did not have to become so foolish in seeking an impossible Godlike standard when the word God has been stretched out of all proportion.

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Post by Ted »

Without looking it up the readers were told to "Study to "Show thyself approved". That is very plain and straight forward.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1480871 wrote: Without looking it up the readers were told to "Study to "Show thyself approved". That is very plain and straight forward.


For sure.

Yet Christians call that a fall when it comes to Eden and they have used that term against women forever and institutionalized their immoral misogynist policies.

They ignore the law of the land that says we are all equal and I think the governments should rescind their tax exempt status until they follow the law of the land.

Religions do not deserve my respect and I resent having to pay for the shortfall their exemptions cause. Every tax payer should be thinking the same way, especially those who know that all churches and mosques do is lie to the gullible and insecure.

Don't get me started. :mad:

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Post by Smaug »

The Chinese say "The greatest sin is ignorance".
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Post by FourPart »

Smaug;1480954 wrote: The Chinese say "The greatest sin is ignorance".
You learn something everyday.
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Post by mjplatt »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1480239 wrote: Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

Is it a sin to want to open one�s eyes instead of being blind?

Is it a sin to do as scriptures urge us to do?

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Gen 3:2 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good

Adam and Eve were doing exactly what we are all told by scriptures to do, yet God seemed quite upset.

Why is seeking knowledge and ignoring a vile command to remain in ignorant bliss wrong or a sin?

Are you sinning when you seek knowledge and becoming more like God?

Regards

DL


Sin is a victimless crime
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mjplatt;1481208 wrote: Sin is a victimless crime


For me, it's the APPLICATION of that knowledge that defines whether it's sinful. A sword ( for "sword", read knowledge) used to stop, and possibly kill, a psycho gratuitously maiming your children is not, I.M.O. being used sinfully.

A sword used to cut down random, innocent people IS being sinfully used.

It's all in the application...
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It's all in the word you use.....you can only sin against a deity. I agree that there is good and bad and that morality is subjective. I was only making a point about that particular word. If there is no deity then there is no sin, only good and bad actions.
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mjplatt;1481272 wrote: It's all in the word you use.....you can only sin against a deity. I agree that there is good and bad and that morality is subjective. I was only making a point about that particular word. If there is no deity then there is no sin, only good and bad actions.
Then you could say the same sort of thing about Sin's antonyms. Good. Love. etc. Sin, as a word is not exclusive to the world of religion. It's just that religion likes to make everything into a sin. Even the act by which we come into being is classed as "Original Sin".

In general, the 10 Commandments are nothing more than the basis of law worldwide, regardless of religion - if there is even any religion at all. They are basically a set of rules which are common to all societies, without which the societies would fall apart. This is something learned by experience - not something suddenly "God-given". "Sin" is nothing to do with being against a Deity. It is everything to do with being against Society.
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Post by mjplatt »

"Then you could say the same sort of thing about Sin's antonyms. Good. Love. etc"

Those are not the antonyms of sin. Good is the antonym of bad and love is the antonym of hate.

Most of the things in the ten commandments can be found in earlier religions and are not unique to Christianity. And there are many other "rules" in Christian scripture that Christians readily ignore because they are inconvenient or just plain wrong.

"Sin is nothing to do with being against a Deity. It is everything to do with being against Society."

I don't know what you mean exactly by "against society". Which society are you referring to? If one society does something that is good for that society but bad for a neighboring society is it a sin??? If another society does something for the neighboring society that is ultimately bad for their own society, is it a sin?

In any case, it is merely good or bad (or evil if you like that word) depending on one or the other society's viewpoint, and not sinful unless someones deity declares it so. I know the word sin has become synonymous with evil or bad in conversation, but the concept of sin is different from the concept of good and evil.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Smaug;1480954 wrote: The Chinese say "The greatest sin is ignorance".


Je suis Chinese.:)

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Gnostic Christian Bishop;1481417 wrote: Je suis Chinese.:)

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Moi aussi!:D
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Ying tong, ying tong, ying tong, ying tong, ying tong iddle I po!!
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FourPart;1481439 wrote: Ying tong, ying tong, ying tong, ying tong, ying tong iddle I po!!


Make sure you clean up after yourself.

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Post by Ted »

I think the desire of most Christians is security..With increasing knowledg e one by one the ancient myths are shown for what they are, just that myths. Epilepsy was shone to be a physical conditio. Another myth of demon possession blown away. There is much truth in the ancient documents. There is some history bu little. When read for what it is, "midrash" it becomes a " more than" book. the literal reading of the bible was an error developed about 200 years ago. There were some literalists down through the centuries but they were a small minority. The church has failed in its obligation to teach the reading and interpretation of the Bible. The word of God rightly belons to the risen one and not a book. Thus the Bible for many has come to be an object of idolatry.
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Ted;1481761 wrote: I think the desire of most Christians is security..With increasing knowledg e one by one the ancient myths are shown for what they are, just that myths. Epilepsy was shone to be a physical conditio. Another myth of demon possession blown away. There is much truth in the ancient documents. There is some history bu little. When read for what it is, "midrash" it becomes a " more than" book. the literal reading of the bible was an error developed about 200 years ago. There were some literalists down through the centuries but they were a small minority. The church has failed in its obligation to teach the reading and interpretation of the Bible. The word of God rightly belons to the risen one and not a book. Thus the Bible for many has come to be an object of idolatry.


That was the plan. To create an idol worshiping religion.

I would say that it began more like 1,600 years ago when Constantine bought the then Orthodox church. This first ling speaks of that and the rest is bonus and what I sell.

You will have to expand your ideas of what literalism is.

Gnostic Christians are perpetual seekers after God. God here I define God as the best laws and rules to live life with.

We believe that those laws and rules, as Jesus said, are found in our minds/hearts.

I use the following to try to illustrate this notion. A bit of history and then a mindset and method to do what I promote.



The thinking shown below is the Gnostic Christian’s goal as taught by Jesus but know that any belief can be internalized to activate your higher mind.





This method and mind set is how you become I am and brethren to Jesus, in the esoteric sense.



When you can name your God, I am, and mean yourself, you will begin to know the only God you will ever find. Becoming a God is to become more fully human and a brethren to Jesus.

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Post by Ted »

Literalism in broad terms sees the Bible as historically true. Adam and Eve actually lived in a Garden of Eden, The sun stood still for 24 hours to allow Joshua to finish his battle and successfully at that. The Red sea went dry in one path to save the Hebrew.. That Jesus can bounce around in and on the clouds. The Bible is not a history book it is a religious book. In places it has some historical basis but makes great use of metaphor in the broader sense. Like the New Jerusalem is going to come down from the sky. I hope it comes with a complete infrastructure. The Christmas story is pure midrash as is the Easter story. There were no wise men, no star no angel choirs singing in the heavens. The Jews with perhaps the writings attributed to Look wrote the Bible using midrash and thus needs to be read through Jewish eyes or as close as we can get. There is little actual history in the Bible but in some cases historical events were used as a basis for the story. If we want to interpret the Bible we need totry to find out what event caused them to write as they did.
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Ted;1482960 wrote: Literalism in broad terms sees the Bible as historically true. Adam and Eve actually lived in a Garden of Eden, The sun stood still for 24 hours to allow Joshua to finish his battle and successfully at that. The Red sea went dry in one path to save the Hebrew.. That Jesus can bounce around in and on the clouds. The Bible is not a history book it is a religious book. In places it has some historical basis but makes great use of metaphor in the broader sense. Like the New Jerusalem is going to come down from the sky. I hope it comes with a complete infrastructure. The Christmas story is pure midrash as is the Easter story. There were no wise men, no star no angel choirs singing in the heavens. The Jews with perhaps the writings attributed to Look wrote the Bible using midrash and thus needs to be read through Jewish eyes or as close as we can get. There is little actual history in the Bible but in some cases historical events were used as a basis for the story. If we want to interpret the Bible we need totry to find out what event caused them to write as they did.


We have constitutions. The ancients had scriptures.

All was here below, politics and religions, before the Greeks put heaven and God above.

That allowed the introduction of idiocy in the belief in the supernatural and literalism.

Gnostic Christians would not buy into such a brain killing way of thinking so Christianity decimated them and burned their scriptures.

We are back.

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Post by Ted »

As you are well aware the scriptures or christian scriptures did not drop out of the sky complete. The first five books, the Pentatuch,sp we were put together during the Babylonian exile from oral traditions that had been passed on for years. The others were written in their time. Even the so called book of Isaiah was composed by at least three different writers over some 200 years. According The Rev. Dr. Rabbi Daum of the Vancouver School of Theology there is no one correct interpretation of anything in the Bible especially the OT. I accept the ancient writings for what they are, midrash, and enlist the my God given right to interpret the sacred scriptures and sometimes in more than one way. As a Christian and an ecumenist I accept the validity to be found in all the ancient writings. Dr. M. Fox has an interesting book out titled "One River Many Wells. We have all chosen a well to drink from or at least those of us who appreciate religion. When the NT was put together there were multiple of copies of each with none of them the same. That was an interesting exercise.
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Sin to me is not what you do but who you are. Sin is that which is life denying and the good part is life affirming. It is amazing how many try to define or encapsulate God in human language. I believe that is an impossibility. We do not have the "God Language" with which to speak of her/him/it. The most I can say is that God is a great mystery.
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Ted;1483229 wrote: As you are well aware the scriptures or christian scriptures did not drop out of the sky complete. The first five books, the Pentatuch,sp we were put together during the Babylonian exile from oral traditions that had been passed on for years. The others were written in their time. Even the so called book of Isaiah was composed by at least three different writers over some 200 years. According The Rev. Dr. Rabbi Daum of the Vancouver School of Theology there is no one correct interpretation of anything in the Bible especially the OT. I accept the ancient writings for what they are, midrash, and enlist the my God given right to interpret the sacred scriptures and sometimes in more than one way. As a Christian and an ecumenist I accept the validity to be found in all the ancient writings. Dr. M. Fox has an interesting book out titled "One River Many Wells. We have all chosen a well to drink from or at least those of us who appreciate religion. When the NT was put together there were multiple of copies of each with none of them the same. That was an interesting exercise.


I am a Gnostic Christian and esoteric ecumenist and agree with your views of scriptures.

I do not generally agree with idol worshiping Christians.

I do not mind seeking the wisdom in the bible, there is a fair bit of that in there but not the way literal readers think as much of what they find must be reversed to make it moral. Their substitutionary atonement, homophobia and misogyny are three areas in particular that I attack.

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Ted;1483232 wrote: Sin to me is not what you do but who you are. Sin is that which is life denying and the good part is life affirming. It is amazing how many try to define or encapsulate God in human language. I believe that is an impossibility. We do not have the "God Language" with which to speak of her/him/it. The most I can say is that God is a great mystery.


I agree and that is why I can honestly say that all the priests and imams are lying the moment they begin to tell us what they have fathomed about the unfathomable or know of the unknowable.

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Post by Ted »

Trying to discuss or describe the divine is an impossible because we lack the knowledge, the conceptualization ability or the language to do so.
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You know something, Ted. I'm sure I speak for a lot of members here when I say I look forward to your postings. They are clear, concise, informed & detached from personal bias.

Kudos.
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Post by Snowfire »

FourPart;1483675 wrote: You know something, Ted. I'm sure I speak for a lot of members here when I say I look forward to your postings. They are clear, concise, informed & detached from personal bias.

Kudos.


Agree. Ted is a breath of fresh air in an otherwise foul stench of religious bigotry and fundamentalist claptrap
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1483664 wrote: Trying to discuss or describe the divine is an impossible because we lack the knowledge, the conceptualization ability or the language to do so.


I agree. That is one of the thinks that make me say that all priests and imams are knowingly lying to us every time they say anything about what they know of the unknowable.

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FourPart;1483675 wrote: You know something, Ted. I'm sure I speak for a lot of members here when I say I look forward to your postings. They are clear, concise, informed & detached from personal bias.

Kudos.


I like that he agrees with me on most issue so far.

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Post by Ted »

There has been some talk about the Bible being an idol. I agree with that on the part of many folks. Not all of us treat it in that way. The Bible as a book contains much ancient wisdom but it is not the word of God. That rightly belongs to the risen one who was a very human being like the rest of us. However we see in him a manifestation of the true nature of God. There are many other sacred writings that could be added to that book..
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Ted;1484022 wrote: There has been some talk about the Bible being an idol. I agree with that on the part of many folks. Not all of us treat it in that way. The Bible as a book contains much ancient wisdom but it is not the word of God. That rightly belongs to the risen one who was a very human being like the rest of us. However we see in him a manifestation of the true nature of God. There are many other sacred writings that could be added to that book..


Jesus of the N.T. is a lot better than the God of the O.T. even though Trinitarians have to see them as the same God.

Neither character makes a good God when you consider the morality of what they taught.

Rome ruined a lot of the wisdom of the bible because they wanted slaves and not free men or free thinkers. Look at the sheeple that are now in churches and mosques and you see the result of such poor teachings.

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Post by Ted »

I see the Trinity simply as the three masks of God. I would agree with you that the NT Divine is better than the OT Divine. However there was a progression of a concept of God. First an individuals deity, then the family deity and then the tribal deity until some saw God as the world's divinity. Interesting note here Historically the name YHWH was originally a derivative of an Arabian storm god. )Prof. J. Meek, U of Toronto. According to scholars like Crossan, Borg, Spong Elohim was originally the name of a Canaanite God.. Far too many these days try to create god in their own image.
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Post by Ted »

I agree with part of what you are saying. The concept of God began as a personal or individuals God, then it became the family god, and then the tribal god and ultimately the world divinity but seen in different ways in most countries.The God we see in the OT is basically a creative god and a war god. In the NT we see in Jesus the manifestation of the true nature of God. I missed a post somewhere. The nameYHWH is a derivitive of the name of an Arabic storm god. {Prof J. Meek, University of Toronto. Elohim was the name of a canaaite god right up their with Baal and others. Interesting. Jesus showed us a totally new way of living in justice and compassion.
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Post by Ted »

I posted to this on the last page.
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Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1484128 wrote: I see the Trinity simply as the three masks of God. I would agree with you that the NT Divine is better than the OT Divine. However there was a progression of a concept of God. First an individuals deity, then the family deity and then the tribal deity until some saw God as the world's divinity. Interesting note here Historically the name YHWH was originally a derivative of an Arabian storm god. )Prof. J. Meek, U of Toronto. According to scholars like Crossan, Borg, Spong Elohim was originally the name of a Canaanite God.. Far too many these days try to create god in their own image.


That is what we have always done. Create our Gods in our image.

But really, what other template is there but ourselves?

I have no problem with recognizing what Freud and Yung called the Father Complex. That is just our instincts trying to dither out who is the fittest of our species so that we can become that.

Regardless of the species, their ideal, and what we call God here, would be one of their own.

It would be foolish for man to think his ideal or God is other than a man or woman. That would be quite un-natural.

Regards

DL
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Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1484133 wrote: I agree with part of what you are saying. The concept of God began as a personal or individuals God, then it became the family god, and then the tribal god and ultimately the world divinity but seen in different ways in most countries.The God we see in the OT is basically a creative god and a war god. In the NT we see in Jesus the manifestation of the true nature of God. I missed a post somewhere. The nameYHWH is a derivitive of the name of an Arabic storm god. {Prof J. Meek, University of Toronto. Elohim was the name of a canaaite god right up their with Baal and others. Interesting. Jesus showed us a totally new way of living in justice and compassion.


In some of his teachings, yes. In others of his teachings, no.

For instance, his no divorce law is anti-love and anti-compassion and quite unjust.

His notion of vicarious redemption or substitutionary atonement is also quite immoral and it is the base of Christianity.

Is it any wonder then that they would become a homophobic and misogynous religion?

Regards

DL
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Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

Post by Ted »

I do think we must still remember that is a judgement of 1st century thought from a 21st cent world view. In my view it is not a valid way to do it. We have to remember epilepsy and demon position and the use of relics were logical and relevantt to them. They actually believed those things and others as being the way it was..]
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Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1484187 wrote: I do think we must still remember that is a judgement of 1st century thought from a 21st cent world view. In my view it is not a valid way to do it. We have to remember epilepsy and demon position and the use of relics were logical and relevantt to them. They actually believed those things and others as being the way it was..]


I agree that it is old and now immoral outdated thinking.

it is to us to try to get modern people to recognize that fact. Theists are slow to get with it.

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DL
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Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

Post by Ted »

I cannot agree with "morality" The Bible is not a book of morals though there are some in their. Outdated yes but immoral, Not at all. Once again trying to interpret a 1st cent world view in a 21st cent world view. I am not a theist but a panentheist. Look at Paul "The one in whom we live and move and have our being"
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Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1484216 wrote: I cannot agree with "morality" The Bible is not a book of morals though there are some in their. Outdated yes but immoral, Not at all. Once again trying to interpret a 1st cent world view in a 21st cent world view. I am not a theist but a panentheist. Look at Paul "The one in whom we live and move and have our being"


Christians are always saying that the WORD of God is the only worthy objective moral guide but if you prefer to think that they do not get their morals from it, fine.

I do not like that quote from Paul.

We are not to live in God. We are to have God live in us. There is a huge difference.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Paul wanted us slaved to God while Jesus recognized that God is to serve man.

The strong are to serve the weak. Not the weak serve the strong.

Regards

DL
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Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

Post by Ted »

I happen to think Paul was correct. We are part of God and God is part of us.Did Jesus say this? "If a man love me .. .words." This is not necessarily a moral statement. We like to please those we love and that has nothing to do with morality but with love. Jesus' quote on the kingdom is in debate as to whom the author was--the evangelist|. The whole idea of predestination takes away all freedom. Some are predestined to get to heaven and some to hell. I most certainly do not believe that a loving God would do that.God serving man. I think it is a two way street in a servant relationship. I've said it before 80% of the words attributed to Jesus cannot be traced back to the historical Jesus of Nazareth.
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