As in "British Exit." As in "Britain leaving the European Union." As in "Piff Posh, We don't need you. We used to have an Empire. Jolly good, eh what?"
As in... I'm totally confused why this would be a good idea.:-2
Brexit
Brexit
Saint_;1478637 wrote: As in "British Exit." As in "Britain leaving the European Union." As in "Piff Posh, We don't need you. We used to have an Empire. Jolly good, eh what?"
As in... I'm totally confused why this would be a good idea.:-2
It wouldn't - except in the minds of right wing isolationists.
As in... I'm totally confused why this would be a good idea.:-2
It wouldn't - except in the minds of right wing isolationists.
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I read that 58% of the country thinks it's a bad idea, but that still leaves 42% of the country that thinks it's a good idea. Why is that percentage so high?
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It is the latest cause of all that ails us as a country, many believe the clock can be turned back to our glory days, when what we said goes. Now we have to barter and negotiate and we are not used to that.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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Saint_;1478658 wrote: I read that 58% of the country thinks it's a bad idea, but that still leaves 42% of the country that thinks it's a good idea. Why is that percentage so high?
A glut of sheep who believe whatever their media output of preference tells them to believe.
A glut of sheep who believe whatever their media output of preference tells them to believe.
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The original notion of the Common Market was a good one. The Central European Government that makes all the laws we have to abide by is not. We have no control over our own country any more. That is why the percentage is so high.
If the 'promised' referendum, rather than being a simple In / Out one, were to have a 3rd option of a return to the values of the Common Market, I'm certain that's the one that would take the lead.
If the 'promised' referendum, rather than being a simple In / Out one, were to have a 3rd option of a return to the values of the Common Market, I'm certain that's the one that would take the lead.
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I think that in staying in the EU, we do ourselves a dis-service. These are some of problems ; we import far more from the EU than export, we lost much trade and goodwill from many of our Commonwealth allies, we pay 60 Billion per annum to belong to this quango and receive 20 billion back in European Social Fund, we have rampant immigration and health tourism, are unable to deport terrorists, we are unable to enforce our borders properly(how many illegal immigrants?), are subject to the whims of Brussels and have a puppet "Euro Parliament" that is utterly at the mercy of the Brussels Commission (unelected),who can reject and over-rule the Euro Parliament on any decision it may make (this is known as "the democratic defecit", or was when I was protester),hitherto reduced trade with the rest of the world, a weaker Europe because the wealthier countries prop up the poorer ones to the detriment of defence spending in wealthier nations(the "powerhouse" nations such as Germany, France,etc) healthcare spending, education, welfare and employment.
I think that with the removal of the un-elected quango that calls itself the Brussels Commission, and a serious "house clean" and reform, Europe might be a workable proposition, but as it stands, it's a military and financial liability, especially to the wealthier European nations, as the Eastern European nations contribute very little financially OR militarily, apart from giving us more territory to protect, with less military force, due to spending cuts, thus making us weaker, and having to support these ex Eastern Bloc countries is a serious drain on resources, especially with those ailing "PIGS" (Portugal, Italy,Greece, Spain) "borrowing" huge amounts of money as well...who IS liable if these nations default on repayments, as Greece may well do in the next week or so? The rest of the EU community? the IMF? Might not Russia (if it can afford it ) offer a "bail-out" to these struggling nations, in exchange for some advantage or other? Just the "thin end of the wedge", maybe.
Apart from this, the EU seems OK... though think it's days may be numbered! If there was a vote to return the EU to Common Market status again, I might vote for that, but I certainly didn't vote for a european superstate via the back door; no wonder there's a backlash...
(Yes, I copy/pasted some of this from one of my earlier posts, as I couldn't face typing it all again on this AWFUL Toshiba laptop keyboard. Whatever you do, DON'T buy one;every expense spared!!)
I think that with the removal of the un-elected quango that calls itself the Brussels Commission, and a serious "house clean" and reform, Europe might be a workable proposition, but as it stands, it's a military and financial liability, especially to the wealthier European nations, as the Eastern European nations contribute very little financially OR militarily, apart from giving us more territory to protect, with less military force, due to spending cuts, thus making us weaker, and having to support these ex Eastern Bloc countries is a serious drain on resources, especially with those ailing "PIGS" (Portugal, Italy,Greece, Spain) "borrowing" huge amounts of money as well...who IS liable if these nations default on repayments, as Greece may well do in the next week or so? The rest of the EU community? the IMF? Might not Russia (if it can afford it ) offer a "bail-out" to these struggling nations, in exchange for some advantage or other? Just the "thin end of the wedge", maybe.
Apart from this, the EU seems OK... though think it's days may be numbered! If there was a vote to return the EU to Common Market status again, I might vote for that, but I certainly didn't vote for a european superstate via the back door; no wonder there's a backlash...
(Yes, I copy/pasted some of this from one of my earlier posts, as I couldn't face typing it all again on this AWFUL Toshiba laptop keyboard. Whatever you do, DON'T buy one;every expense spared!!)
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
Brexit
t is the latest cause of all that ails us as a country, many believe the clock can be turned back to our glory days, when what we said goes. Now we have to barter and negotiate and we are not used to that.
They also tend to have a belief on a britian that never was. Those who advocate leaving tend to use a kind of brochure speak - they qoute from the last pamphlet they read and can't quite handle it when anyone points out the flaws in what they are saying or challenges the factual content.
If you look at the way UKIP MEP's vote you have to wonder whose interests they have at heart. Not so long ago they helped block attempts to deal with tax evasion by large corporations they're firmly on the side of big business and against workers rights not to mention want to undo all the achievements of the welfare state - like the NHS pro-freedom for big business and rich people, anti-freedom for immigrants, asylum seekers, gay people and other marginalised groups it's the nutty right wing underbelly of the UK.
They also tend to have a belief on a britian that never was. Those who advocate leaving tend to use a kind of brochure speak - they qoute from the last pamphlet they read and can't quite handle it when anyone points out the flaws in what they are saying or challenges the factual content.
If you look at the way UKIP MEP's vote you have to wonder whose interests they have at heart. Not so long ago they helped block attempts to deal with tax evasion by large corporations they're firmly on the side of big business and against workers rights not to mention want to undo all the achievements of the welfare state - like the NHS pro-freedom for big business and rich people, anti-freedom for immigrants, asylum seekers, gay people and other marginalised groups it's the nutty right wing underbelly of the UK.
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gmc;1478736 wrote:
If you look at the way UKIP MEP's vote you have to wonder whose interests they have at heart. Not so long ago they helped block attempts to deal with tax evasion by large corporations they're firmly on the side of big business and against workers rights not to mention want to undo all the achievements of the welfare state - like the NHS pro-freedom for big business and rich people, anti-freedom for immigrants, asylum seekers, gay people and other marginalised groups it's the nutty right wing underbelly of the UK.
So...UKIPMEP doesn't stand for United Kingdom Is Pretty Much Everyone's Pony? I take it they are the "Republicans" of Great Britain by their policies, then.
If you look at the way UKIP MEP's vote you have to wonder whose interests they have at heart. Not so long ago they helped block attempts to deal with tax evasion by large corporations they're firmly on the side of big business and against workers rights not to mention want to undo all the achievements of the welfare state - like the NHS pro-freedom for big business and rich people, anti-freedom for immigrants, asylum seekers, gay people and other marginalised groups it's the nutty right wing underbelly of the UK.
So...UKIPMEP doesn't stand for United Kingdom Is Pretty Much Everyone's Pony? I take it they are the "Republicans" of Great Britain by their policies, then.
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Saint_;1478739 wrote: So...UKIPMEP doesn't stand for United Kingdom Is Pretty Much Everyone's Pony? I take it they are the "Republicans" of Great Britain by their policies, then.
Not sure where they would fit in the american political spectrum.
Not sure where they would fit in the american political spectrum.
Brexit
Saint_;1478739 wrote: So...UKIPMEP doesn't stand for United Kingdom Is Pretty Much Everyone's Pony? I take it they are the "Republicans" of Great Britain by their policies, then.
Assuming that was serious, rather than tongue in cheek, UKIP are the United Kingdom Independant Party. They are very Right Wing, but it is their stance on Independance from the control of Europe which is really rallying support among the electorate, yet the other main parties are all Pro-Europe. Cameron is 'promising' an In / Out Referendum by 2020 (the year of the next General Election, co-incidentally), if he gets in - an outright bribe for votes, if ever I saw one, while Labour flatly refuse to hold one at all. Both parties claim the majority of Britain want to remain in the EU, yet neither are confident enough to put it to the People to prove it.
As far as the MEP part is concerned, that's Member of the European Parliament, which is somewhat ironic, as this is precisely the organisation that UKIP are opposed to, yet they currently hold more British seats in Europe than any other party. If their share of the votes were representative of the General Election, Nigel Farage would be our Prime Minister by an overwhelming majority.
Assuming that was serious, rather than tongue in cheek, UKIP are the United Kingdom Independant Party. They are very Right Wing, but it is their stance on Independance from the control of Europe which is really rallying support among the electorate, yet the other main parties are all Pro-Europe. Cameron is 'promising' an In / Out Referendum by 2020 (the year of the next General Election, co-incidentally), if he gets in - an outright bribe for votes, if ever I saw one, while Labour flatly refuse to hold one at all. Both parties claim the majority of Britain want to remain in the EU, yet neither are confident enough to put it to the People to prove it.
As far as the MEP part is concerned, that's Member of the European Parliament, which is somewhat ironic, as this is precisely the organisation that UKIP are opposed to, yet they currently hold more British seats in Europe than any other party. If their share of the votes were representative of the General Election, Nigel Farage would be our Prime Minister by an overwhelming majority.
Brexit
Not to mention they have no problem taking every penny in salary and expenses that they can get while either not taking part in votes or voting against policies that would have actually helped the UK. They help prevent debate over things that we really should be discussing.
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FourPart;1478757 wrote: Assuming that was serious, rather than tongue in cheek, UKIP are the United Kingdom Independant Party. They are very Right Wing, but it is their stance on Independance from the control of Europe which is really rallying support among the electorate, yet the other main parties are all Pro-Europe. Cameron is 'promising' an In / Out Referendum by 2020 (the year of the next General Election, co-incidentally), if he gets in - an outright bribe for votes, if ever I saw one, while Labour flatly refuse to hold one at all. Both parties claim the majority of Britain want to remain in the EU, yet neither are confident enough to put it to the People to prove it.
As far as the MEP part is concerned, that's Member of the European Parliament, which is somewhat ironic, as this is precisely the organisation that UKIP are opposed to, yet they currently hold more British seats in Europe than any other party. If their share of the votes were representative of the General Election, Nigel Farage would be our Prime Minister by an overwhelming majority.
Unless Cameron has changed his mind (a politician go back on his word? The very idea...!), the referendum is set for 2017. Time for some SERIOUS reform and re-negotiation in Europe, for the meantime. Seize the day, I say!
As far as the MEP part is concerned, that's Member of the European Parliament, which is somewhat ironic, as this is precisely the organisation that UKIP are opposed to, yet they currently hold more British seats in Europe than any other party. If their share of the votes were representative of the General Election, Nigel Farage would be our Prime Minister by an overwhelming majority.
Unless Cameron has changed his mind (a politician go back on his word? The very idea...!), the referendum is set for 2017. Time for some SERIOUS reform and re-negotiation in Europe, for the meantime. Seize the day, I say!
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
Brexit
Smaug;1478775 wrote: Unless Cameron has changed his mind (a politician go back on his word? The very idea...!), the referendum is set for 2017. Time for some SERIOUS reform and re-negotiation in Europe, for the meantime. Seize the day, I say!
The Scorpion in the story...
The Scorpion in the story...
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Smaug;1478775 wrote: Unless Cameron has changed his mind (a politician go back on his word? The very idea...!), the referendum is set for 2017. Time for some SERIOUS reform and re-negotiation in Europe, for the meantime. Seize the day, I say!
If someone could come uop with a convincing case that we would be better off outside the eu I would vote or them but no one can. I se nigel lost hooray.
If someone could come uop with a convincing case that we would be better off outside the eu I would vote or them but no one can. I se nigel lost hooray.
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gmc;1478847 wrote: If someone could come uop with a convincing case that we would be better off outside the eu I would vote or them but no one can. I se nigel lost hooray.
I posted on this very issue earlier in this thread (post #7). Can't be asked to write/paste it again. Tell you what, GMC, at least you've got a leader worth a damn! What with the electoral boundaries the way they are, the idiots that comprise the English electorate, and the deranged rantings of tawdry rags like the Sun extolling the "virtues" of a tory govt, think I've had a bellyful today...
I posted on this very issue earlier in this thread (post #7). Can't be asked to write/paste it again. Tell you what, GMC, at least you've got a leader worth a damn! What with the electoral boundaries the way they are, the idiots that comprise the English electorate, and the deranged rantings of tawdry rags like the Sun extolling the "virtues" of a tory govt, think I've had a bellyful today...
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
Brexit
FourPart;1478789 wrote: The Scorpion in the story...
Yes, we definitely "missed our window of opportunity", didn't we? As for the scorpion... 'nuff said.
Yes, we definitely "missed our window of opportunity", didn't we? As for the scorpion... 'nuff said.
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
Brexit
so - does the vote indicate that the majority of folks want out? How soon can you expect the referendum to occur?
Mr Cameron all but declared victory in a speech after being returned as MP for Witney, in which he set out his intention to press ahead with an in/out referendum on Britain's membership of the European Union and to complete the Conservatives' economic plan.
Election results: Conservatives win majority - BBC News
Mr Cameron all but declared victory in a speech after being returned as MP for Witney, in which he set out his intention to press ahead with an in/out referendum on Britain's membership of the European Union and to complete the Conservatives' economic plan.
Election results: Conservatives win majority - BBC News
I expressly forbid the use of any of my posts anywhere outside of FG (with the exception of the incredibly witty 'get a room already' )posted recently.
Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6
Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6
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flopstock;1478860 wrote: so - does the vote indicate that the majority of folks want out? How soon can you expect the referendum to occur?
I would guess the majority want to stay in, but are unhappy about the way things in general are going.
We did vote to join in principle, long ago, but since the set up of it has changed somewhat. It was a trade organisation, a common market, for the purposes of trade. The political dream was that eventually we would all unite into a united states of Europe, but I don't think that was what people voted for back then. The problem now is that decisions are being taken out of our parliaments hands by the European Parliament, so we are losing some amount of sovereign power.
The knockers all notice every bad part or downside, never the benefits which are harder to measure, at least to my mind.
For me.............I think we are too deeply immersed to just drop out now, inside we can alter things, outside we have no control over it at all.
I would guess the majority want to stay in, but are unhappy about the way things in general are going.
We did vote to join in principle, long ago, but since the set up of it has changed somewhat. It was a trade organisation, a common market, for the purposes of trade. The political dream was that eventually we would all unite into a united states of Europe, but I don't think that was what people voted for back then. The problem now is that decisions are being taken out of our parliaments hands by the European Parliament, so we are losing some amount of sovereign power.
The knockers all notice every bad part or downside, never the benefits which are harder to measure, at least to my mind.
For me.............I think we are too deeply immersed to just drop out now, inside we can alter things, outside we have no control over it at all.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Brexit
Bruv;1478864 wrote: I would guess the majority want to stay in, but are unhappy about the way things in general are going.
We did vote to join in principle, long ago, but since the set up of it has changed somewhat. It was a trade organisation, a common market, for the purposes of trade. The political dream was that eventually we would all unite into a united states of Europe, but I don't think that was what people voted for back then. The problem now is that decisions are being taken out of our parliaments hands by the European Parliament, so we are losing some amount of sovereign power.
The knockers all notice every bad part or downside, never the benefits which are harder to measure, at least to my mind.
For me.............I think we are too deeply immersed to just drop out now, inside we can alter things, outside we have no control over it at all.
I was thinking that if you guys and one other major player drop, it's pretty much over, isn't it?
We did vote to join in principle, long ago, but since the set up of it has changed somewhat. It was a trade organisation, a common market, for the purposes of trade. The political dream was that eventually we would all unite into a united states of Europe, but I don't think that was what people voted for back then. The problem now is that decisions are being taken out of our parliaments hands by the European Parliament, so we are losing some amount of sovereign power.
The knockers all notice every bad part or downside, never the benefits which are harder to measure, at least to my mind.
For me.............I think we are too deeply immersed to just drop out now, inside we can alter things, outside we have no control over it at all.
I was thinking that if you guys and one other major player drop, it's pretty much over, isn't it?
I expressly forbid the use of any of my posts anywhere outside of FG (with the exception of the incredibly witty 'get a room already' )posted recently.
Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6
Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6
Brexit
flopstock;1478865 wrote: I was thinking that if you guys and one other major player drop, it's pretty much over, isn't it?
I think Europe now revolves around Germany.
The UK has never fully embraced the idea as far as I see it, we have for most of our time in the club been threatening to leave the club, rather than throw all our efforts into making it work for the good of all.
I think Europe now revolves around Germany.
The UK has never fully embraced the idea as far as I see it, we have for most of our time in the club been threatening to leave the club, rather than throw all our efforts into making it work for the good of all.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Brexit
As we import far more than we export, we are far more of an asset to the EU than they are to us. The same goes for the vast difference that we pay into it, compared to what we get out of it. We continue to fork out for benefits to be paid to all comers that they wouldn't get in their home countries. Other EU countries allow themselves to be used as Tax Havens so as to allow the massive Corporation to leech off us via Tax Avoidance. We continue to blindly obey every little law laid down by the EU, while the rest of the states only abide by them whenever it suits them to do so.
The list of reasons to get out goes on...
As far as I see it, there are 3 possible options for a Referendum:
1. A return to the Common Market Treaty, as what was originally voted for.
2. Stay in & continue to be Brussels' Cash Cow.
3. Get the hell out & take back control of our own country.
The list of reasons to get out goes on...
As far as I see it, there are 3 possible options for a Referendum:
1. A return to the Common Market Treaty, as what was originally voted for.
2. Stay in & continue to be Brussels' Cash Cow.
3. Get the hell out & take back control of our own country.
Brexit
FourPart;1478893 wrote: As we import far more than we export, we are far more of an asset to the EU than they are to us. The same goes for the vast difference that we pay into it, compared to what we get out of it. We continue to fork out for benefits to be paid to all comers that they wouldn't get in their home countries. Other EU countries allow themselves to be used as Tax Havens so as to allow the massive Corporation to leech off us via Tax Avoidance. We continue to blindly obey every little law laid down by the EU, while the rest of the states only abide by them whenever it suits them to do so.
The list of reasons to get out goes on...
As far as I see it, there are 3 possible options for a Referendum:
1. A return to the Common Market Treaty, as what was originally voted for.
2. Stay in & continue to be Brussels' Cash Cow.
3. Get the hell out & take back control of our own country.
You talk like we are victims of their system, you forget that we are equal members and we vote as equals, the fact that we don't always get our way is the way democracy works.
I don't want the Tories to govern my country, should I opt out and how ?
The list of reasons to get out goes on...
As far as I see it, there are 3 possible options for a Referendum:
1. A return to the Common Market Treaty, as what was originally voted for.
2. Stay in & continue to be Brussels' Cash Cow.
3. Get the hell out & take back control of our own country.
You talk like we are victims of their system, you forget that we are equal members and we vote as equals, the fact that we don't always get our way is the way democracy works.
I don't want the Tories to govern my country, should I opt out and how ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Brexit
Bruv;1478917 wrote: You talk like we are victims of their system, you forget that we are equal members and we vote as equals, the fact that we don't always get our way is the way democracy works.
I don't want the Tories to govern my country, should I opt out and how ?
That's just it, we ARE victims! Did you get a vote on joining the EU? Or how much power would be transferred to Brussels? Maastricht was signed by John Major in '92 without any kind of recourse to the British people.
I don't want the Tories to govern my country, should I opt out and how ?
That's just it, we ARE victims! Did you get a vote on joining the EU? Or how much power would be transferred to Brussels? Maastricht was signed by John Major in '92 without any kind of recourse to the British people.
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
Brexit
Smaug;1478919 wrote: That's just it, we ARE victims! Did you get a vote on joining the EU? Or how much power would be transferred to Brussels? Maastricht was signed by John Major in '92 without any kind of recourse to the British people.
Wait for gmc to give chapter and verse about how and when it all happened, but I am sure we were never invaded or coerced, we joined a club willingly then the rules changed, it happens.
Wait for gmc to give chapter and verse about how and when it all happened, but I am sure we were never invaded or coerced, we joined a club willingly then the rules changed, it happens.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Brexit
Equal? Don't make me laugh. If the EU Government decided to vote to abolish the UK & make it a dominion of France, do you really believe our "Equal" status would stand a hope in hell? As a tiny pebble on a beach, we are 'equal' to all the other pebbles, but the other pebbles already have their buddies' backs to scratch. The U.K. is not, nor ever has been a popular part of the EU. There was even opposition from the French about our joining the Common Market in the first place. They now have us where they want us, as a piece of property.
Brexit
FourPart;1478928 wrote: Equal? Don't make me laugh. If the EU Government decided to vote to abolish the UK & make it a dominion of France, do you really believe our "Equal" status would stand a hope in hell? As a tiny pebble on a beach, we are 'equal' to all the other pebbles, but the other pebbles already have their buddies' backs to scratch. The U.K. is not, nor ever has been a popular part of the EU. There was even opposition from the French about our joining the Common Market in the first place. They now have us where they want us, as a piece of property.
You really do buy in to this conspiracy stuff don't you. The eu a secret plot by the french to get back at us for trafalgar, waterloo?
That's because we refused to join right at the very beginning, laughed at the very idea and tried to hang on to our ragged cloak as a global power just as all our colonies were becoming independent building their own economies and telling us to get lost. We decided to try and join when we were bankrupt in going hat in hand to the IMF and it had become really really obvious we needed to be opart of the european bloc in order to survive. needed the european development fund to help with the poorer regions in the UK and to try and get a share of all that foreign investment that was heading europes way that we were not getting because we were not members.
That european export market you are so derogatory about would cease to exist and true we would import less because our industry would not need the materials since most of it will not exist any more. At least all the financial services will go with them places like zurich are already rubbing their hands with glee when they take time off from holding their sides laughing. Look at all the businesses that support ukip none of them are major exporters.
If the scots take a leaf out ukip's book and decide to leave the union at least you will be able to frack for oil (you're not gettimng any more of ours) in the tory heartlands - where they have changed the planning laws so you can't stop them. Wonder if you will set up and oil fund or just let all the monies go to private hands?
posted by smaug
That's just it, we ARE victims! Did you get a vote on joining the EU? Or how much power would be transferred to Brussels? Maastricht was signed by John Major in '92 without any kind of recourse to the British people.
Parliamentary democracy haven't you heard of it. You pillocks down south have just voted for more of the same, don;t blame the scots for a tory government we hate the bastards.
You really do buy in to this conspiracy stuff don't you. The eu a secret plot by the french to get back at us for trafalgar, waterloo?
That's because we refused to join right at the very beginning, laughed at the very idea and tried to hang on to our ragged cloak as a global power just as all our colonies were becoming independent building their own economies and telling us to get lost. We decided to try and join when we were bankrupt in going hat in hand to the IMF and it had become really really obvious we needed to be opart of the european bloc in order to survive. needed the european development fund to help with the poorer regions in the UK and to try and get a share of all that foreign investment that was heading europes way that we were not getting because we were not members.
That european export market you are so derogatory about would cease to exist and true we would import less because our industry would not need the materials since most of it will not exist any more. At least all the financial services will go with them places like zurich are already rubbing their hands with glee when they take time off from holding their sides laughing. Look at all the businesses that support ukip none of them are major exporters.
If the scots take a leaf out ukip's book and decide to leave the union at least you will be able to frack for oil (you're not gettimng any more of ours) in the tory heartlands - where they have changed the planning laws so you can't stop them. Wonder if you will set up and oil fund or just let all the monies go to private hands?
posted by smaug
That's just it, we ARE victims! Did you get a vote on joining the EU? Or how much power would be transferred to Brussels? Maastricht was signed by John Major in '92 without any kind of recourse to the British people.
Parliamentary democracy haven't you heard of it. You pillocks down south have just voted for more of the same, don;t blame the scots for a tory government we hate the bastards.
Brexit
gmc;1478932 wrote:
That european export market you are so derogatory about would cease to exist and true we would import less because our industry would not need the materials since most of it will not exist any more. At least all the financial services will go with them places like zurich are already rubbing their hands with glee when they take time off from holding their sides laughing. Look at all the businesses that support ukip none of them are major exporters.
Of course it wouldn't cease to exist. It existed perfectly well before this current Colonisation by a European Government crept in. You could, however, turn the argument around & say that without the Common Market the EU couldn't exist - not the other way round, and therein lies the problem.
If the scots take a leaf out ukip's book and decide to leave the union at least you will be able to frack for oil (you're not gettimng any more of ours) in the tory heartlands - where they have changed the planning laws so you can't stop them. Wonder if you will set up and oil fund or just let all the monies go to private hands?
For once, oil isn't the real issue. North Sea Oil is running out & demand is also decreasing as people are looking to cheaper, more eco-friendly alternatives more & more. To base an entire economy on it is plain foolhardiness.
Parliamentary democracy haven't you heard of it. You pillocks down south have just voted for more of the same, don;t blame the scots for a tory government we hate the bastards.
I may be Dan Sarf, but I certainly didn't vote for them. I was stunned to hear that my ward (Southampton Itchen), which had always been a Labour Safe Seat had fallen to Royston Smith, a totally incompetent Tory. He was voted as a Tory Councillor once, and had nearly all the services out on strike after he tried to cut them right back & reduce pay levels. A reaction that no Council in Southampton has ever been able to equal before or since.
Remember the General Strikes of the 70s? I foresee the same thing happening soon.
That european export market you are so derogatory about would cease to exist and true we would import less because our industry would not need the materials since most of it will not exist any more. At least all the financial services will go with them places like zurich are already rubbing their hands with glee when they take time off from holding their sides laughing. Look at all the businesses that support ukip none of them are major exporters.
Of course it wouldn't cease to exist. It existed perfectly well before this current Colonisation by a European Government crept in. You could, however, turn the argument around & say that without the Common Market the EU couldn't exist - not the other way round, and therein lies the problem.
If the scots take a leaf out ukip's book and decide to leave the union at least you will be able to frack for oil (you're not gettimng any more of ours) in the tory heartlands - where they have changed the planning laws so you can't stop them. Wonder if you will set up and oil fund or just let all the monies go to private hands?
For once, oil isn't the real issue. North Sea Oil is running out & demand is also decreasing as people are looking to cheaper, more eco-friendly alternatives more & more. To base an entire economy on it is plain foolhardiness.
Parliamentary democracy haven't you heard of it. You pillocks down south have just voted for more of the same, don;t blame the scots for a tory government we hate the bastards.
I may be Dan Sarf, but I certainly didn't vote for them. I was stunned to hear that my ward (Southampton Itchen), which had always been a Labour Safe Seat had fallen to Royston Smith, a totally incompetent Tory. He was voted as a Tory Councillor once, and had nearly all the services out on strike after he tried to cut them right back & reduce pay levels. A reaction that no Council in Southampton has ever been able to equal before or since.
Remember the General Strikes of the 70s? I foresee the same thing happening soon.
Brexit
Parliamentary democracy haven't you heard of it. You pillocks down south have just voted for more of the same, don;t blame the scots for a tory government we hate the bastards.
I certainly didn't vote tory, and I hate them too! As for Parliamentary democracy, that was abused by Major when he signed Maastricht in '92. Democracy is now further eroded by Brussels (the Brussels Commission...), as they can, at whim, OVERRULE ANY DECISION TAKEN BY THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT. The commission is unelected. So what's democratic about that?
I certainly didn't vote tory, and I hate them too! As for Parliamentary democracy, that was abused by Major when he signed Maastricht in '92. Democracy is now further eroded by Brussels (the Brussels Commission...), as they can, at whim, OVERRULE ANY DECISION TAKEN BY THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT. The commission is unelected. So what's democratic about that?
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
Brexit
Smaug;1478956 wrote:
As for Parliamentary democracy, that was abused by Major when he signed Maastricht in '92. Democracy is now further eroded by Brussels (the Brussels Commission...), as they can, at whim, OVERRULE ANY DECISION TAKEN BY THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT. The commission is unelected. So what's democratic about that?
I hear of this unelected committee overruling stuff all the time, does anybody have any specifics to prove this ?
I don't mean where UK interests are out voted but when common agreements are unilaterally 'at a whim' over turned by a faceless 'unelected' commission.
As for Parliamentary democracy, that was abused by Major when he signed Maastricht in '92. Democracy is now further eroded by Brussels (the Brussels Commission...), as they can, at whim, OVERRULE ANY DECISION TAKEN BY THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT. The commission is unelected. So what's democratic about that?
I hear of this unelected committee overruling stuff all the time, does anybody have any specifics to prove this ?
I don't mean where UK interests are out voted but when common agreements are unilaterally 'at a whim' over turned by a faceless 'unelected' commission.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Brexit
Bruv;1478961 wrote: I hear of this unelected committee overruling stuff all the time, does anybody have any specifics to prove this ?
I don't mean where UK interests are out voted but when common agreements are unilaterally 'at a whim' over turned by a faceless 'unelected' commission.
The European Parliament consists of MEP's from all members of the EU. Fact.
The Brussels Commission has the power, and reserves the right to overrule the EU Parliament on any motion it may pass. It's in the treaty.( This is called THE DEMOCRATIC DEFICIT, or was when I was protesting about the proposed 100 BHP limit on motorcycles ). Fact.
If you feel like finding and logging on, then trawling through thousands of pages of data to find the incidents yourself, then fill your boots!
Why would I wish to lie? I've got better things to do!
I don't mean where UK interests are out voted but when common agreements are unilaterally 'at a whim' over turned by a faceless 'unelected' commission.
The European Parliament consists of MEP's from all members of the EU. Fact.
The Brussels Commission has the power, and reserves the right to overrule the EU Parliament on any motion it may pass. It's in the treaty.( This is called THE DEMOCRATIC DEFICIT, or was when I was protesting about the proposed 100 BHP limit on motorcycles ). Fact.
If you feel like finding and logging on, then trawling through thousands of pages of data to find the incidents yourself, then fill your boots!
Why would I wish to lie? I've got better things to do!
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
Brexit
Whoooa there ........never spoke of lies.
Rumour and headlines speak of legislation over the bend in bananas, and open borders with no conditions attached. I don't believe it......sorry.
Rumour and headlines speak of legislation over the bend in bananas, and open borders with no conditions attached. I don't believe it......sorry.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Brexit
Smaug;1478965 wrote: The European Parliament consists of MEP's from all members of the EU. Fact.
The Brussels Commission has the power, and reserves the right to overrule the EU Parliament on any motion it may pass. It's in the treaty.( This is called THE DEMOCRATIC DEFICIT, or was when I was protesting about the proposed 100 BHP limit on motorcycles ). Fact.
If you feel like finding and logging on, then trawling through thousands of pages of data to find the incidents yourself, then fill your boots!
Why would I wish to lie? I've got better things to do!
You foget to mention the attempt to write a constitution for the eu that was kyboshed by the right wing political parties that prefer to have a foorball they can kick about for the musement of the electorate.
If you can't back up your arguments just say so stamping your foot and saying tis so is not much of an argument. Never mind the eu the ttip treaty is a bigger threat to our nation ask ukip why they support it.
Don't buy UKIP's hypocrisy on TTIP | Left Foot Forward
UKIP economiclly are a fascist party desperate to make us more like america things like the proposed 100bhp are the least of our worries.
Maybe you should o some research yourself.
The Brussels Commission has the power, and reserves the right to overrule the EU Parliament on any motion it may pass. It's in the treaty.( This is called THE DEMOCRATIC DEFICIT, or was when I was protesting about the proposed 100 BHP limit on motorcycles ). Fact.
If you feel like finding and logging on, then trawling through thousands of pages of data to find the incidents yourself, then fill your boots!
Why would I wish to lie? I've got better things to do!
You foget to mention the attempt to write a constitution for the eu that was kyboshed by the right wing political parties that prefer to have a foorball they can kick about for the musement of the electorate.
If you can't back up your arguments just say so stamping your foot and saying tis so is not much of an argument. Never mind the eu the ttip treaty is a bigger threat to our nation ask ukip why they support it.
Don't buy UKIP's hypocrisy on TTIP | Left Foot Forward
UKIP economiclly are a fascist party desperate to make us more like america things like the proposed 100bhp are the least of our worries.
Maybe you should o some research yourself.
Brexit
Democratic deficit in the European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As the article states, it serves to benefit the Status Quo & support the higher powers the seek to keep lesser nations under their thumb, but to keep the lesser upstart ones, such as the UK, as the underdogs.
In 'theory' we have a similar system in the U.K., but far more Democratic. When a Bill is passed it has to go to the Lords for approval - who may dismiss it 'at a whim' if the so choose. It hten has to go to the Queen for ratification. She does have the power to refuse it (although this has very rarely happened) up to 3 times, before it gets passed anyway.
As the article states, it serves to benefit the Status Quo & support the higher powers the seek to keep lesser nations under their thumb, but to keep the lesser upstart ones, such as the UK, as the underdogs.
In 'theory' we have a similar system in the U.K., but far more Democratic. When a Bill is passed it has to go to the Lords for approval - who may dismiss it 'at a whim' if the so choose. It hten has to go to the Queen for ratification. She does have the power to refuse it (although this has very rarely happened) up to 3 times, before it gets passed anyway.
Brexit
FourPart;1478997 wrote: Democratic deficit in the European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As the article states, it serves to benefit the Status Quo & support the higher powers the seek to keep lesser nations under their thumb, but to keep the lesser upstart ones, such as the UK, as the underdogs.
In 'theory' we have a similar system in the U.K., but far more Democratic. When a Bill is passed it has to go to the Lords for approval - who may dismiss it 'at a whim' if the so choose. It hten has to go to the Queen for ratification. She does have the power to refuse it (although this has very rarely happened) up to 3 times, before it gets passed anyway.
Where does it say that? Also in the uk we have been landed with a right wing govertnment that the vast majority of the popuklation voted against how is that more democratic?
As the article states, it serves to benefit the Status Quo & support the higher powers the seek to keep lesser nations under their thumb, but to keep the lesser upstart ones, such as the UK, as the underdogs.
I'm scots do you really want to go there?
As the article states, it serves to benefit the Status Quo & support the higher powers the seek to keep lesser nations under their thumb, but to keep the lesser upstart ones, such as scotland, as the underdogs.
What it does say is
Voting in the Council is usually by qualified majority voting, and sometimes unanimity is required. This means that for the vast majority of EU legislation the corresponding national government has usually voted in favour in the Council. To give an example, up to September 2006, out of the 86 pieces of legislation adopted in that year the government of the United Kingdom had voted in favour of the legislation 84 times, abstained from voting twice and never voted against.[12]
As to the european court the UK actually wins most of the cases brought against it.
https://metranet.londonmet.ac.uk/fms/MR ... 190412.pdf
The UK has a very low rate of defeat at Strasbourg. Of some 12,000 applications
lodged against the UK between 1999 and 2010, only 215 (less than 2 per cent)
resulted in a judgment finding a violation of a European Convention right. Put
another way, the UK ‘lost’ only one in 50 cases.
We need a rational debate on membershipm of the eu sadly I don't think we will get it.
The united kingdom is a political union not a country if the decison is taken to break one then why not the other?
As the article states, it serves to benefit the Status Quo & support the higher powers the seek to keep lesser nations under their thumb, but to keep the lesser upstart ones, such as the UK, as the underdogs.
In 'theory' we have a similar system in the U.K., but far more Democratic. When a Bill is passed it has to go to the Lords for approval - who may dismiss it 'at a whim' if the so choose. It hten has to go to the Queen for ratification. She does have the power to refuse it (although this has very rarely happened) up to 3 times, before it gets passed anyway.
Where does it say that? Also in the uk we have been landed with a right wing govertnment that the vast majority of the popuklation voted against how is that more democratic?
As the article states, it serves to benefit the Status Quo & support the higher powers the seek to keep lesser nations under their thumb, but to keep the lesser upstart ones, such as the UK, as the underdogs.
I'm scots do you really want to go there?
As the article states, it serves to benefit the Status Quo & support the higher powers the seek to keep lesser nations under their thumb, but to keep the lesser upstart ones, such as scotland, as the underdogs.
What it does say is
Voting in the Council is usually by qualified majority voting, and sometimes unanimity is required. This means that for the vast majority of EU legislation the corresponding national government has usually voted in favour in the Council. To give an example, up to September 2006, out of the 86 pieces of legislation adopted in that year the government of the United Kingdom had voted in favour of the legislation 84 times, abstained from voting twice and never voted against.[12]
As to the european court the UK actually wins most of the cases brought against it.
https://metranet.londonmet.ac.uk/fms/MR ... 190412.pdf
The UK has a very low rate of defeat at Strasbourg. Of some 12,000 applications
lodged against the UK between 1999 and 2010, only 215 (less than 2 per cent)
resulted in a judgment finding a violation of a European Convention right. Put
another way, the UK ‘lost’ only one in 50 cases.
We need a rational debate on membershipm of the eu sadly I don't think we will get it.
The united kingdom is a political union not a country if the decison is taken to break one then why not the other?
Brexit
gmc;1479002 wrote: The united kingdom is a political union not a country if the decison is taken to break one then why not the other?
Exactly. The option was given to the Scots to get out of the UK & chose not to. Why should we not be afforded the same option re the EU?
Exactly. The option was given to the Scots to get out of the UK & chose not to. Why should we not be afforded the same option re the EU?
Brexit
FourPart;1479004 wrote: Exactly. The option was given to the Scots to get out of the UK & chose not to. Why should we not be afforded the same option re the EU?
Do you remember the reaction and outright hostility, the refusal to even discuss what would happen to the currency, the threat to have a closed borders and put up trade barriers and the sheer outrage that we should even contemplate challenguing the status quo. You can expect the same kind of hostility from the rest of europe. Why should they allow us to continue as members of the trading union if they put up trade barriers all non uk owned factoiries will shut - nissan, toyota, peugeot, ford mitsubishi, we're trade rivals to european nations not partners any more. All the finance houses will shift to where the money is. All the british expats kicked out and forced to return home. eurpe doesn't need us we need them.
Have a vote yes but let's have a rational discussion about it
Do you remember the reaction and outright hostility, the refusal to even discuss what would happen to the currency, the threat to have a closed borders and put up trade barriers and the sheer outrage that we should even contemplate challenguing the status quo. You can expect the same kind of hostility from the rest of europe. Why should they allow us to continue as members of the trading union if they put up trade barriers all non uk owned factoiries will shut - nissan, toyota, peugeot, ford mitsubishi, we're trade rivals to european nations not partners any more. All the finance houses will shift to where the money is. All the british expats kicked out and forced to return home. eurpe doesn't need us we need them.
Have a vote yes but let's have a rational discussion about it
Brexit
gmc;1479014 wrote: Do you remember the reaction and outright hostility, the refusal to even discuss what would happen to the currency, the threat to have a closed borders and put up trade barriers and the sheer outrage that we should even contemplate challenguing the status quo. You can expect the same kind of hostility from the rest of europe. Why should they allow us to continue as members of the trading union if they put up trade barriers all non uk owned factoiries will shut - nissan, toyota, peugeot, ford mitsubishi, we're trade rivals to european nations not partners any more. All the finance houses will shift to where the money is. All the british expats kicked out and forced to return home. eurpe doesn't need us we need them.
Have a vote yes but let's have a rational discussion about it
Rational discussion?
I've heard about those. Can't say I've seen one for a few decades.
They might have gone extinct.
Have a vote yes but let's have a rational discussion about it
Rational discussion?
I've heard about those. Can't say I've seen one for a few decades.
They might have gone extinct.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
Brexit
gmc;1479002 wrote: Also in the UK we have been landed with a right wing govertnment that the vast majority of the population voted against how is that more democratic?
Actually, how is that even possible? But to commiserate with you, welcome to the club. We have a right-wing congress dedicated to crashing our country into a wall again.
Actually, how is that even possible? But to commiserate with you, welcome to the club. We have a right-wing congress dedicated to crashing our country into a wall again.
Brexit
The question regarding Currency was a perfectly valid one. The value of a currency is based on the economy of that particular country. When a country becomes independant of the country which holds that currency, there is no reason why they should continue to be able to use that currency except, perhaps, in name only. If / When the U.K. come out of the E.U. currency would not be an issue as we had the foresight not to sign up to the failing Euro.
Brexit
Saint_;1479028 wrote: Actually, how is that even possible? But to commiserate with you, welcome to the club. We have a right-wing congress dedicated to crashing our country into a wall again.
If 34% of the population vote for them and the remaining votes are split equally between two other parties ?
If 34% of the population vote for them and the remaining votes are split equally between two other parties ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Brexit
Bruv;1478978 wrote: Whoooa there ........never spoke of lies.
Rumour and headlines speak of legislation over the bend in bananas, and open borders with no conditions attached. I don't believe it......sorry.
Maybe "lie"was the wrong word to use here. Substitute "exaggerate" for "lie", Bruv!
Rumour and headlines speak of legislation over the bend in bananas, and open borders with no conditions attached. I don't believe it......sorry.
Maybe "lie"was the wrong word to use here. Substitute "exaggerate" for "lie", Bruv!
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
Brexit
gmc;1478991 wrote: You foget to mention the attempt to write a constitution for the eu that was kyboshed by the right wing political parties that prefer to have a foorball they can kick about for the musement of the electorate.
If you can't back up your arguments just say so stamping your foot and saying tis so is not much of an argument. Never mind the eu the ttip treaty is a bigger threat to our nation ask ukip why they support it.
Don't buy UKIP's hypocrisy on TTIP | Left Foot Forward
UKIP economiclly are a fascist party desperate to make us more like america things like the proposed 100bhp are the least of our worries.
Maybe you should o some research yourself.
The Maastricht treaty signed in '92 specifies that the commission(Brussels) CAN overrule decisions taken by the EU Parliament. I or anyone else for that matter, would have to trawl though a lot of Euro Parliament data to find it (THOUSANDS of laws and edicts have been passed since '92). Remember those 3 words in a previous post...
THE DEMOCRATIC DEFICIT; it's what MAG (MotorCycle Action Group) were fighting against this very thing when we opposed the 100bhp limit for motorcycles, we even paid for our own MEP to fight our case in Europe; fortunately we won....and yes, there are more important things, unless you're a biker! I saw this as an, albeit relatively minor, assault on freedom and democracy (FREEDOM of choice, and the attempted denial of this freedom by a PERMANENT,UNELECTED body). Further evidence of democratic lack can be seen in the bloated raft of 'elf and safety law passed by the EU and straight into law by our Parliament,along with many other laws, without consultation. REMEMBER, NOBODY WAS POLLED ABOUT JOINING THE EU IN THE FIRST PLACE. Would you Scots have been happy without your referendum? And what caused Scots to want one anyway? Was it rebellion caused by a political elite that ignored Scottish needs? You bet! And would you be happy to be dictated to by the tories,or labour in perpetuity? You bet your backside you wouldn't!!!
When Major signed Maastricht in '92, he TOTALLY EXCEEDED his mandate, by shifting governance of this Kingdom abroad, effectively ending this country's centuries old right to self-determination! Britain is not liked in Europe, so what chance do we have there, with so many prepared to vote against us at every turn, aided and abetted by Germany(the REAL masers of the EU), France and a whole slew of ex Eastern Bloc nations. Incidentally, the current EU is very similar to Hitler's vision for Europe after the third reich's victory, complete with "puppet" governments... Unacceptable as it stands, and long overdue for major reform!
Besides, what CAN Europe teach us about democracy? We, or possibly the Vikings, were the first Nation(s) to have a "Parliament". Throughout our more recent history, we have RESCUED various European nations FROM the clutches of various EUROPEAN DICTATORS (Napoleon, Kaiser Wilhelm, Adolf Hitler), so I certainly don't look to Europe for inspiration!!
If you can't back up your arguments just say so stamping your foot and saying tis so is not much of an argument. Never mind the eu the ttip treaty is a bigger threat to our nation ask ukip why they support it.
Don't buy UKIP's hypocrisy on TTIP | Left Foot Forward
UKIP economiclly are a fascist party desperate to make us more like america things like the proposed 100bhp are the least of our worries.
Maybe you should o some research yourself.
The Maastricht treaty signed in '92 specifies that the commission(Brussels) CAN overrule decisions taken by the EU Parliament. I or anyone else for that matter, would have to trawl though a lot of Euro Parliament data to find it (THOUSANDS of laws and edicts have been passed since '92). Remember those 3 words in a previous post...
THE DEMOCRATIC DEFICIT; it's what MAG (MotorCycle Action Group) were fighting against this very thing when we opposed the 100bhp limit for motorcycles, we even paid for our own MEP to fight our case in Europe; fortunately we won....and yes, there are more important things, unless you're a biker! I saw this as an, albeit relatively minor, assault on freedom and democracy (FREEDOM of choice, and the attempted denial of this freedom by a PERMANENT,UNELECTED body). Further evidence of democratic lack can be seen in the bloated raft of 'elf and safety law passed by the EU and straight into law by our Parliament,along with many other laws, without consultation. REMEMBER, NOBODY WAS POLLED ABOUT JOINING THE EU IN THE FIRST PLACE. Would you Scots have been happy without your referendum? And what caused Scots to want one anyway? Was it rebellion caused by a political elite that ignored Scottish needs? You bet! And would you be happy to be dictated to by the tories,or labour in perpetuity? You bet your backside you wouldn't!!!
When Major signed Maastricht in '92, he TOTALLY EXCEEDED his mandate, by shifting governance of this Kingdom abroad, effectively ending this country's centuries old right to self-determination! Britain is not liked in Europe, so what chance do we have there, with so many prepared to vote against us at every turn, aided and abetted by Germany(the REAL masers of the EU), France and a whole slew of ex Eastern Bloc nations. Incidentally, the current EU is very similar to Hitler's vision for Europe after the third reich's victory, complete with "puppet" governments... Unacceptable as it stands, and long overdue for major reform!
Besides, what CAN Europe teach us about democracy? We, or possibly the Vikings, were the first Nation(s) to have a "Parliament". Throughout our more recent history, we have RESCUED various European nations FROM the clutches of various EUROPEAN DICTATORS (Napoleon, Kaiser Wilhelm, Adolf Hitler), so I certainly don't look to Europe for inspiration!!
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
Brexit
Smaug;1479091 wrote: The Maastricht treaty signed in '92 specifies that the commission(Brussels) CAN overrule decisions taken by the EU Parliament. I or anyone else for that matter, would have to trawl though a lot of Euro Parliament data to find it (THOUSANDS of laws and edicts have been passed since '92). Remember those 3 words in a previous post...
THE DEMOCRATIC DEFICIT; it's what MAG (MotorCycle Action Group) were fighting against this very thing when we opposed the 100bhp limit for motorcycles, we even paid for our own MEP to fight our case in Europe; fortunately we won....and yes, there are more important things, unless you're a biker! I saw this as an, albeit relatively minor, assault on freedom and democracy (FREEDOM of choice, and the attempted denial of this freedom by a PERMANENT,UNELECTED body). Further evidence of democratic lack can be seen in the bloated raft of 'elf and safety law passed by the EU and straight into law by our Parliament,along with many other laws, without consultation. REMEMBER, NOBODY WAS POLLED ABOUT JOINING THE EU IN THE FIRST PLACE. Would you Scots have been happy without your referendum? And what caused Scots to want one anyway? Was it rebellion caused by a political elite that ignored Scottish needs? You bet! And would you be happy to be dictated to by the tories,or labour in perpetuity? You bet your backside you wouldn't!!!
When Major signed Maastricht in '92, he TOTALLY EXCEEDED his mandate, by shifting governance of this Kingdom abroad, effectively ending this country's centuries old right to self-determination! Britain is not liked in Europe, so what chance do we have there, with so many prepared to vote against us at every turn, aided and abetted by Germany(the REAL masers of the EU), France and a whole slew of ex Eastern Bloc nations. Incidentally, the current EU is very similar to Hitler's vision for Europe after the third reich's victory, complete with "puppet" governments... Unacceptable as it stands, and long overdue for major reform!
Besides, what CAN Europe teach us about democracy? We, or possibly the Vikings, were the first Nation(s) to have a "Parliament". Throughout our more recent history, we have RESCUED various European nations FROM the clutches of various EUROPEAN DICTATORS (Napoleon, Kaiser Wilhelm, Adolf Hitler), so I certainly don't look to Europe for inspiration!!
EH where did the vikings come from? Come to that where did the angles and saxons come from or what are the origins of the word parliament (it's french in case you were wondering) the Normans who still make up most of the upper classes where do you think they came from. Our royal family is german and the queen married a greek refugee homeless afterthe greeks threw out their royal family.
Many in our colonies might not have seen our conquest as being entirely benign or did you forget we are not exactly the peace loving only fight back when provoked people you seem to think we are. What were we defending india and africa from? We took out the dutch because we wanted the spice trade. Went in to hong king with gunboats so we could sell the chinese indian opium.
British empire against the french ( we had a german king don't you know) and german ones ww1 was the last fling of the empires ww2 saw the end of ours. Don';t give me any crap about how we have lays been on the side of freedom and liberty defending the oppressed and we weren't as nasty as the french and germans to the natives.
Clearly you are unaware of the attempt to write a constitution that would have given more power to the MEP's rather than the commission - that was in this century not the last.
They wanted to restrict the power of your motor bike - You got it stopped so much for the eu imposing their will.
Snoopers' charter set to return to law as Theresa May suggests Conservative majority could lead to huge increase in surveillance powers - News - Gadgets and Tech - The Independent
Maybe we need a human rights act and european courts to defend us from our own government which is rather the point of both the legislation and the court. Cameron wants to throw out the human rights act so they can lock people up more easily
THE DEMOCRATIC DEFICIT; it's what MAG (MotorCycle Action Group) were fighting against this very thing when we opposed the 100bhp limit for motorcycles, we even paid for our own MEP to fight our case in Europe; fortunately we won....and yes, there are more important things, unless you're a biker! I saw this as an, albeit relatively minor, assault on freedom and democracy (FREEDOM of choice, and the attempted denial of this freedom by a PERMANENT,UNELECTED body). Further evidence of democratic lack can be seen in the bloated raft of 'elf and safety law passed by the EU and straight into law by our Parliament,along with many other laws, without consultation. REMEMBER, NOBODY WAS POLLED ABOUT JOINING THE EU IN THE FIRST PLACE. Would you Scots have been happy without your referendum? And what caused Scots to want one anyway? Was it rebellion caused by a political elite that ignored Scottish needs? You bet! And would you be happy to be dictated to by the tories,or labour in perpetuity? You bet your backside you wouldn't!!!
When Major signed Maastricht in '92, he TOTALLY EXCEEDED his mandate, by shifting governance of this Kingdom abroad, effectively ending this country's centuries old right to self-determination! Britain is not liked in Europe, so what chance do we have there, with so many prepared to vote against us at every turn, aided and abetted by Germany(the REAL masers of the EU), France and a whole slew of ex Eastern Bloc nations. Incidentally, the current EU is very similar to Hitler's vision for Europe after the third reich's victory, complete with "puppet" governments... Unacceptable as it stands, and long overdue for major reform!
Besides, what CAN Europe teach us about democracy? We, or possibly the Vikings, were the first Nation(s) to have a "Parliament". Throughout our more recent history, we have RESCUED various European nations FROM the clutches of various EUROPEAN DICTATORS (Napoleon, Kaiser Wilhelm, Adolf Hitler), so I certainly don't look to Europe for inspiration!!
EH where did the vikings come from? Come to that where did the angles and saxons come from or what are the origins of the word parliament (it's french in case you were wondering) the Normans who still make up most of the upper classes where do you think they came from. Our royal family is german and the queen married a greek refugee homeless afterthe greeks threw out their royal family.
Many in our colonies might not have seen our conquest as being entirely benign or did you forget we are not exactly the peace loving only fight back when provoked people you seem to think we are. What were we defending india and africa from? We took out the dutch because we wanted the spice trade. Went in to hong king with gunboats so we could sell the chinese indian opium.
British empire against the french ( we had a german king don't you know) and german ones ww1 was the last fling of the empires ww2 saw the end of ours. Don';t give me any crap about how we have lays been on the side of freedom and liberty defending the oppressed and we weren't as nasty as the french and germans to the natives.
Clearly you are unaware of the attempt to write a constitution that would have given more power to the MEP's rather than the commission - that was in this century not the last.
They wanted to restrict the power of your motor bike - You got it stopped so much for the eu imposing their will.
Snoopers' charter set to return to law as Theresa May suggests Conservative majority could lead to huge increase in surveillance powers - News - Gadgets and Tech - The Independent
Maybe we need a human rights act and european courts to defend us from our own government which is rather the point of both the legislation and the court. Cameron wants to throw out the human rights act so they can lock people up more easily
Brexit
It's EU laws that forbid the use of cardboard boxes for shoppers in Supermarkets. Instead the Supermarkets have to pay for them to be taken away as Industrial Waste. The Box Bay was a proud British Tradition, and very Eco-Friendly - until the EU started imposing stupid laws.
Return to the ideal of the EEC & get out of the EU.
Return to the ideal of the EEC & get out of the EU.
Brexit
FourPart;1479132 wrote: It's EU laws that forbid the use of cardboard boxes for shoppers in Supermarkets. Instead the Supermarkets have to pay for them to be taken away as Industrial Waste. The Box Bay was a proud British Tradition, and very Eco-Friendly - until the EU started imposing stupid laws.
Return to the ideal of the EEC & get out of the EU.
It was also a fire risk and the superrmarkets made money selling the cardboard for recycling - as they still do. Besides if you ask nicely I'm sure they wopuld let you nhave one. How do you balance it in your moped?
Return to the ideal of the EEC & get out of the EU.
It was also a fire risk and the superrmarkets made money selling the cardboard for recycling - as they still do. Besides if you ask nicely I'm sure they wopuld let you nhave one. How do you balance it in your moped?
Brexit
gmc;1479114 wrote: EH where did the vikings come from? Come to that where did the angles and saxons come from or what are the origins of the word parliament (it's french in case you were wondering) the Normans who still make up most of the upper classes where do you think they came from. Our royal family is german and the queen married a greek refugee homeless afterthe greeks threw out their royal family.
Many in our colonies might not have seen our conquest as being entirely benign or did you forget we are not exactly the peace loving only fight back when provoked people you seem to think we are. What were we defending india and africa from? We took out the dutch because we wanted the spice trade. Went in to hong king with gunboats so we could sell the chinese indian opium.
British empire against the french ( we had a german king don't you know) and german ones ww1 was the last fling of the empires ww2 saw the end of ours. Don';t give me any crap about how we have lays been on the side of freedom and liberty defending the oppressed and we weren't as nasty as the french and germans to the natives.
Clearly you are unaware of the attempt to write a constitution that would have given more power to the MEP's rather than the commission - that was in this century not the last.
They wanted to restrict the power of your motor bike - You got it stopped so much for the eu imposing their will.
Snoopers' charter set to return to law as Theresa May suggests Conservative majority could lead to huge increase in surveillance powers - News - Gadgets and Tech - The Independent
Maybe we need a human rights act and european courts to defend us from our own government which is rather the point of both the legislation and the court. Cameron wants to throw out the human rights act so they can lock people up more easily
I quoted the Vikings because they also had a form of Parliament (Parlez=Talk/speak/discuss), and they had it before us. If you look in detail at the English language, you will find that we have "borrowed" words from just about every language in the world! Also, I am well aware that our Royal Family is of German descent, what of it? We are a "mongrel race", having been invaded many times in our history, the last invasion being by William The Conqueror. I don't include William Of Orange, as he was invited to take the throne...
Also, I'm under no illusions as to the nature of our "conquests". No, we were not particularly benign in the way we treated our conquered "subjects", though we often ended up giving them some sort of education. While we are at it, I never said we were crusaders for the oppressed, but my points stand; we DID remove Napoleon, and prevent him conquering Europe, eventually, we DID stop the Kaiser from doing the same, we DID stop Hitler(with a lot of help, AFTER December 41!!), though we stood alone until then!
I agree about the opium trade, we did conduct those negotiations with gunboats, hence the term "gunboat diplomacy". As regards India and Africa, if we hadn't defended "our" colonies, especially India, the French would have conquered the lot, and the natives would have been even more brutalized. For me, I'm not sure whether to feel comfortable with this portion of history, as I'm a direct blood descendant of "Clive Of India", on my Father's side!
As for re-writing the constitution, I notice you use the words "attempted to re-write the constitution". That's about right, isn't it? ATTEMPTED. Not re-written, ATTEMPTED. As I say, too much dislike for this country in Europe for anything we suggest to make any difference. Rather like the way Westminster treats Scotland, yes?
That's why Scotland "came within an ace" of going independent. As for the 100bhp limit, it's not been "banished", merely put "on indefinite hold". It may return, at some propitious time...
Yes, I feel it's more than likely that the tories will "ramp up" surveillance, and reject the human rights act...good for deporting terrorists, not good for justice at "grass-roots" level, though, as the legislation will be wide open to state-sponsored abuse, with no appeals possible outside our already warped "justice" system. As I said in an earlier post, Europe could be good with MAJOR REFORM, but as it stands, only an Ostrich could say it's OK.
By the way, did you realize that the auditors of the EU finances have (to the best of my knowledge) never "signed off" the audit as being correct, and all monies accounted for, since the inception of the EU...maybe that explains why Europe is struggling, as it begs an obvious question, "where have all the missing BILIONS gone"?
So, take off the "rose tint spectacles" about Europe, it's not "all-singing,all dancing". As an example of this, a few years ago, the Commission stated that "Britain is now on the menu", simply because we resisted attempts from the EU to SERIOUSLY DAMAGE OUR FINANCIAL SECTOR, cityspeak for breaking the UK influence in this area. The saying "With friends like this, who needs enemies" springs to mind. As for that MAJOR REFORM needed, how much of a chance do you think we have of bringing it off? I'll tell you...NO CHANCE, though I feel that we must try, the rest of the EU will block it, simply because they like being able to use us as a "cash cow" (we pay 60 BILLION to Europe, and receive 20 BILLION back in ESF). If you tried to run a business on those lines, you'd soon be bankrupt...
Many in our colonies might not have seen our conquest as being entirely benign or did you forget we are not exactly the peace loving only fight back when provoked people you seem to think we are. What were we defending india and africa from? We took out the dutch because we wanted the spice trade. Went in to hong king with gunboats so we could sell the chinese indian opium.
British empire against the french ( we had a german king don't you know) and german ones ww1 was the last fling of the empires ww2 saw the end of ours. Don';t give me any crap about how we have lays been on the side of freedom and liberty defending the oppressed and we weren't as nasty as the french and germans to the natives.
Clearly you are unaware of the attempt to write a constitution that would have given more power to the MEP's rather than the commission - that was in this century not the last.
They wanted to restrict the power of your motor bike - You got it stopped so much for the eu imposing their will.
Snoopers' charter set to return to law as Theresa May suggests Conservative majority could lead to huge increase in surveillance powers - News - Gadgets and Tech - The Independent
Maybe we need a human rights act and european courts to defend us from our own government which is rather the point of both the legislation and the court. Cameron wants to throw out the human rights act so they can lock people up more easily
I quoted the Vikings because they also had a form of Parliament (Parlez=Talk/speak/discuss), and they had it before us. If you look in detail at the English language, you will find that we have "borrowed" words from just about every language in the world! Also, I am well aware that our Royal Family is of German descent, what of it? We are a "mongrel race", having been invaded many times in our history, the last invasion being by William The Conqueror. I don't include William Of Orange, as he was invited to take the throne...
Also, I'm under no illusions as to the nature of our "conquests". No, we were not particularly benign in the way we treated our conquered "subjects", though we often ended up giving them some sort of education. While we are at it, I never said we were crusaders for the oppressed, but my points stand; we DID remove Napoleon, and prevent him conquering Europe, eventually, we DID stop the Kaiser from doing the same, we DID stop Hitler(with a lot of help, AFTER December 41!!), though we stood alone until then!
I agree about the opium trade, we did conduct those negotiations with gunboats, hence the term "gunboat diplomacy". As regards India and Africa, if we hadn't defended "our" colonies, especially India, the French would have conquered the lot, and the natives would have been even more brutalized. For me, I'm not sure whether to feel comfortable with this portion of history, as I'm a direct blood descendant of "Clive Of India", on my Father's side!
As for re-writing the constitution, I notice you use the words "attempted to re-write the constitution". That's about right, isn't it? ATTEMPTED. Not re-written, ATTEMPTED. As I say, too much dislike for this country in Europe for anything we suggest to make any difference. Rather like the way Westminster treats Scotland, yes?
That's why Scotland "came within an ace" of going independent. As for the 100bhp limit, it's not been "banished", merely put "on indefinite hold". It may return, at some propitious time...
Yes, I feel it's more than likely that the tories will "ramp up" surveillance, and reject the human rights act...good for deporting terrorists, not good for justice at "grass-roots" level, though, as the legislation will be wide open to state-sponsored abuse, with no appeals possible outside our already warped "justice" system. As I said in an earlier post, Europe could be good with MAJOR REFORM, but as it stands, only an Ostrich could say it's OK.
By the way, did you realize that the auditors of the EU finances have (to the best of my knowledge) never "signed off" the audit as being correct, and all monies accounted for, since the inception of the EU...maybe that explains why Europe is struggling, as it begs an obvious question, "where have all the missing BILIONS gone"?
So, take off the "rose tint spectacles" about Europe, it's not "all-singing,all dancing". As an example of this, a few years ago, the Commission stated that "Britain is now on the menu", simply because we resisted attempts from the EU to SERIOUSLY DAMAGE OUR FINANCIAL SECTOR, cityspeak for breaking the UK influence in this area. The saying "With friends like this, who needs enemies" springs to mind. As for that MAJOR REFORM needed, how much of a chance do you think we have of bringing it off? I'll tell you...NO CHANCE, though I feel that we must try, the rest of the EU will block it, simply because they like being able to use us as a "cash cow" (we pay 60 BILLION to Europe, and receive 20 BILLION back in ESF). If you tried to run a business on those lines, you'd soon be bankrupt...
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
Brexit
gmc;1479144 wrote: It was also a fire risk and the superrmarkets made money selling the cardboard for recycling - as they still do. Besides if you ask nicely I'm sure they wopuld let you nhave one. How do you balance it in your moped?
I put it on the footplate.
I put it on the footplate.
Brexit
FourPart;1479132 wrote: It's EU laws that forbid the use of cardboard boxes for shoppers in Supermarkets. Instead the Supermarkets have to pay for them to be taken away as Industrial Waste. The Box Bay was a proud British Tradition, and very Eco-Friendly - until the EU started imposing stupid laws.
Return to the ideal of the EEC & get out of the EU. Did they offer a logic for this law?
Return to the ideal of the EEC & get out of the EU. Did they offer a logic for this law?
I expressly forbid the use of any of my posts anywhere outside of FG (with the exception of the incredibly witty 'get a room already' )posted recently.
Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6
Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6
Brexit
flopstock;1479161 wrote: Did they offer a logic for this law?
Logic? EU?? I suspect they have to come up with reasons in order to keep the Bureauocrats in a job, and their job is to keep coming up with nonsensical laws.
Logic? EU?? I suspect they have to come up with reasons in order to keep the Bureauocrats in a job, and their job is to keep coming up with nonsensical laws.