My kind of Atheist

Post by **LarsMac** » Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:10 am

This guy is spot on.

Patton Oswalt to Bill Maher and Richard Dawkins: Itâ€™s OK to be an atheist, but not to be a jerk

Oswalt expressed his displeasure with the no-holds barred atheism of HBO host Bill Maher and evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins, comparing them to Fred Phelps, the late leader of the anti-gay Westboro Baptist Church...

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:49 am

Nice article.

We see that same attack attitude right here on this site from time to time. It's as if folks are offended that someone dare to believe differently then they. And it isn't just about religion, we get like that about politics, guns, any topic really.

Post by **LarsMac** » Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:57 am

Seems that way. People become emotionally attached to their particular point of view, or religion, or political beliefs, and rather than offer reasoned support, they simply attack the other guy's position, as if trying to take a military objective.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:11 am

Yes, you are both right, IMO. We fight because we need outer meaning & belief as a description of Who We Are, as we may not be totally sure. The words "I Am" are used to announce who we are to an external audience, not necessarily Who We Are. Again, IMO.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:33 am

I have actually stood off the anti gun law attacks, not because I think you people over there have it right, because I don't.

I have backed off because it is pointless arguing from the European point of view, we all started from different places,so unless we can replay our histories we have start from 'the now' not 'the might have been.'

Post by **LarsMac** » Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:07 pm

Bruv;1476038 wrote: I have actually stood off the anti gun law attacks, not because I think you people over there have it right, because I don't.

I have backed off because it is pointless arguing from the European point of view, we all started from different places,so unless we can replay our histories we have start from 'the now' not 'the might have been.'

That is one of the "Squirrel issues" in this country.

No matter what the subject, or how reasoned the the discussion, all someone needs do is mention guns, and the wingnuts from both ends of the spectrum folks are off on the tangent, and any hope of reason has flown with them.

Religion, Politics, Obama, and guns. Squirrel!!

Post by **LarsMac** » Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:12 pm

Before you ask,

Snowfire · Post by **Snowfire** » Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:17 pm

LarsMac;1476041 wrote: That is one of the "Squirrel issues" in this country.

No matter what the subject, or how reasoned the the discussion, all someone needs do is mention guns, and the wingnuts from both ends of the spectrum folks are off on the tangent, and any hope of reason has flown with them.

Religion, Politics, Obama, and guns. Squirrel!!

They are at least subjects that are easier to discuss now than in the early days of FG. Then, this place would explode. Both ends of the spectrum would set this place alight

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:13 am

LarsMac;1476021 wrote: This guy is spot on.

Patton Oswalt to Bill Maher and Richard Dawkins: Itâ€™s OK to be an atheist, but not to be a jerk well then youâ€™re no different than the housewife thatâ€™s like, â€˜My son killed himself because of a Judas Priest record.â€™â€ he said. â€œNo, your son killed himself because he was an unstable idiot. Spot on? That's your kind of atheist?

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:11 pm

LarsMac;1476030 wrote: ..... rather than offer reasoned support, they simply attack the other guy's position, as if trying to take a military objective.
That's it in a nutshell.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:25 pm

I tend to like Atheist who can admit when they are wrong, and who grow in their knowledge of both Theism and Atheism over the years.

And I tend to like Theist who are the same;

can stand their ground, but tend to understand more about the ground they are not standing on, over time.

Arena · Post by **Arena** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:46 am

Terry Pratchett was an atheist.

ukoldieschat.boards.net/

Snowfire · Post by **Snowfire** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:44 am

Mickiel;1476282 wrote: I tend to like Atheist who can admit when they are wrong, and who grow in their knowledge of both Theism and Atheism over the years.

And I tend to like Theist who are the same;

can stand their ground, but tend to understand more about the ground they are not standing on, over time.

I tend to like Theists who do too

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:23 am

Mickiel;1476282 wrote: I tend to like Atheist who can admit when they are wrong, and who grow in their knowledge of both Theism and Atheism over the years.Ironically, in many cases it's their knowledge of theism that drives people to become Atheist. Many Atheists are those former theists that learned too much about theism actually.

Mickiel;1476282 wrote: And I tend to like Theist who are the same;This is impossible to my mind. A theist cannot in any way understand what it means to be an atheist, or empathize with an atheist because they've never consciously been one. Atheists who are never taught about any gods have an equal difficulty regarding theism, but the difference is that they rarely care, or are indifferent to the notion of religion and gods and probably belief in general, which is what theists should do instead of preaching.

can stand their ground, but tend to understand more about the ground they are not standing on, over time.Again, probably impossible in all cases from a theistic pov and nearly so for a few atheists.

Theists who believe they can understand Atheism are fooling themselves. But then, that's what life s for them anyway, an illusion.

eta: btw, there is no middle ground in actuality.

Post by **LarsMac** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:15 am

Ahso!;1476300 wrote: Ironically, in many cases it's their knowledge of theism that drives people to become Atheist. Many Atheists are those former theists that learned too much about theism actually.

This is impossible to my mind. A theist cannot in any way understand what it means to be an atheist, or empathize with an atheist because they've never consciously been one. Atheists who are never taught about any gods have an equal difficulty regarding theism, but the difference is that they rarely care, or are indifferent to the notion of religion and gods and probably belief in general, which is what theists should do instead of preaching.

Again, probably impossible in all cases from a theistic pov and nearly so for a few atheists.

Theists who believe they can understand Atheism are fooling themselves. But then, that's what life s for them anyway, an illusion.

eta: btw, there is no middle ground in actuality.

There is no middle ground, only because you choose that to be so.

Many people walk a common ground, regardless of their beliefs. It is those who see no middle ground that are the problem, in my opinion. You have the likes of Phelps and his ilk on the one side, spouting their drivel, and the reactionaries like Dawkins on the other who are doing the same, without even realizing it. Both sides insisting that they are right, and that everyone must agree with them, or be damned.

Most people go on about their lives without really caring which side is right.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:02 am

LarsMac;1476306 wrote: There is no middle ground, only because you choose that to be so.

Many people walk a common ground, regardless of their beliefs. It is those who see no middle ground that are the problem, in my opinion. You have the likes of Phelps and his ilk on the one side, spouting their drivel, and the reactionaries like Dawkins on the other who are doing the same, without even realizing it. Both sides insisting that they are right, and that everyone must agree with them, or be damned.

Most people go on about their lives without really caring which side is right.Nothing on the rest of what I typed?

Could you articulate this middle ground? Not caring which side is right is not a middle ground on the subject of god and religion, it is an indifference to the conversation but that does not equate to middle ground. Religion and God is codified in our laws, influential in life and death decision making by both average citizens as well as law makers and judges so there's no room for middle ground.

There is a lot of diversity in personalities and that is all we see when it comes to people representing their views. Some people are logical, some are emotional, some are comical and so on. We can categorize individuals into groups and label others but the fact is that we're just talking monkeys looking to establish some relevance in our lives. Richard Dawkins is a scientist by profession and not the most effective public speaker/communicator. He does science, but because of some statements he's made and books he's written the religious community wishes for him to be a spokesman for atheism. All Dawkins can do, should do and does do is express his personal opinion. Atheism is not a club, religion or an organization though some atheists wish to create them. Mahr is a comedian and plays to his audience. I've seen Mahr articulate himself every reasonably and effectively in interviews.

There are, to differing degrees - obsessive, passive, aggressive, logical, emotional people on all sides of any conversation or argument, not just this one. Get used to that because that's what we are.

The point comes down to what "belief" means. I personally think it's a term people have learned to hide behind when they've been caught off guard or not fully educated in a subject.

There is no God, in spite that I won't attempt to prove a negative but because it's fact. God has never been proven to be more than a notion in the minds or philosophy of others. If it had been the case that God had been proven then it would be left to those who chose to refute the evidence to show otherwise.

Post by **LarsMac** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:25 am

You don't have to believe in my god, or anybody else's god. I don't care, and I am pretty certain that God - whatever that really is - will not wither away if people do not believe in him/her/it, anymore than the Universe will fade away because some folks can't agree on how it got here.

By the way, I've read many of Dawkins' books, and I am a fan. I also enjoy watching Bill Maher's show. I respect both men a great deal.

I will just say that in my opinion, anyone who insists that we all see things his way is probably wrong.

I live among people who have all sorts of ideas about the universe, and God, and how to go about living. Most of them are very easy to get along with. They live their lives and demonstrate their "religion" by how they live, and none of them insist that the rest of us see things their way. That is the middle ground I speak of.

I also believe that denying the existence of something because of a lack of evidence is just a different form of faith-based reasoning. (A lot of that goes on here

Let's just stick to the evidence. (There is none? OK, then, what are we arguing about?)

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:03 pm

Ahso!;1476300 wrote: Ironically, in many cases it's their knowledge of theism that drives people to become Atheist. Many Atheists are those former theists that learned too much about theism actually.

This is impossible to my mind. A theist cannot in any way understand what it means to be an atheist, or empathize with an atheist because they've never consciously been one. Atheists who are never taught about any gods have an equal difficulty regarding theism, but the difference is that they rarely care, or are indifferent to the notion of religion and gods and probably belief in general, which is what theists should do instead of preaching.

Again, probably impossible in all cases from a theistic pov and nearly so for a few atheists.

Theists who believe they can understand Atheism are fooling themselves. But then, that's what life s for them anyway, an illusion.

eta: btw, there is no middle ground in actuality.

I think that Theist who used to be Atheist, certainly do understand Atheism.

I think that Atheist and Theist who are very close friends, can certainly relate to and learn from each other, because of their friendship.

I think experience, wisdom and learning, can guide any human to understand anything better as they grow. Even things which they believe and don't believe.

And then there is this thing called "Revelation", where a knowledge pops into your head that was not there before; and understanding just seems to come from nowhere. And you just " See it." Like you have never seen it before. I think this happens to both Theist and Atheist. And cannot be limited to either; and the results of such revelations cannot be limited as well. Through this, ( and those listed), one can understand what it is to be something they are not.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:51 pm

Mickiel: I think that Atheist and Theist who are very close friends, can certainly relate to and learn from each other, because of their friendship.

Absolutely.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:36 pm

LarsMac;1476312 wrote: You don't have to believe in my god, or anybody else's god. I don't care, and I am pretty certain that God - whatever that really is - will not wither away if people do not believe in him/her/it, anymore than the Universe will fade away because some folks can't agree on how it got here.You're assuming god is as evident as the Universe. Not true.

I will just say that in my opinion, anyone who insists that we all see things his way is probably wrong.Whom do you speak of? Jesus, Moses? Mohammad? Did you send your kids to school?

I live among people who have all sorts of ideas about the universe,You mean the existence of the Universe? Ideas only matter when fact is involved when it comes to the universe. and God,Conflating god with the universe? Anyone can choose to construct their god anyway they like because unlike the universe there is no true one to base it on. and how to go about living.Great, then let's take god out of school and politics and off our currency. Most of them are very easy to get along with. They live their lives and demonstrate their "religion" by how they live, and none of them insist that the rest of us see things their way. That is the middle ground I speak of.Really? You mean to say that they didn't insist on their children sharing in their religious lives? If they did that means that when the opportunity was there, that's exactly what they did.

I also believe that denying the existence of something because of a lack of evidence is just a different form of faith-based reasoning. (A lot of that goes on here

Let's just stick to the evidence. (There is none? OK, then, what are we arguing about?)What we're arguing about is what we pass down to those who will come after us and the meaning of truth and fact.

The notion of god is not belief, what it is is a misconception or misinterpretation of the world we live in as well as our existence. I can understand why the creation of a god happened, but we now know more about the world and existence and we've learned that the notion of god was incorrect. So we move on - but wait - there are those who just can't seem to grasp the idea of allowing those of us who wish to move on to do so. They drag us back and insist that their prejudices and misconceptions are valid in the face of everything that's been uncovered.

Language matters and when someone invokes god and religion in their daily conversation around me I'm going to ask what it means and why they think it. That's not an attack, it's an opportunity to challenge people and allow them the chance to be more educated - Similar to when a child says 2+2=5.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:37 pm

AnneBoleyn;1476325 wrote: Mickiel: I think that Atheist and Theist who are very close friends, can certainly relate to and learn from each other, because of their friendship.

Absolutely.Personality? Yes! What it's like to be an atheist? Absolutely Not!

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:03 pm

Don't know why I am getting involved in this one........but, lets run this one past you all.

Forget your theisms, pretend they never happened, religion, god, super natural powers, any nod to an all 'powerful' being or beings, and forget the affect they have had on our lives and cultures.

Now start from the pretext that science and the many different arms of science were under discussion here, about what is provable now, what was provable back then, and how our understanding and belief in provable but ever evolving scientific facts has altered over time.......................might that debate take on the same flavour that this discussion has ?

Just saying.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:07 pm

Much of what I have learned about being Atheist has come from talking with Atheist, debating them, and just spending time with them. Which is why I know there are different types of Atheist, all of them are not alike, nor do they all think alike. I remember a thread I once did here, I think I called it " Radical Atheism", or something like that. I have had conversations ( on this site), with at least, I would guess 20 different Atheist, or more over the years. They all were different in my view, but those I found to have the most radical views, reminded me of the self righteous sanctimonious Theist who were the same, just opposite sides of the coin.

Which is why I have a very hard time posting on most Christian websites, because of the presence of that hard line no holds barred unrelenting attitude that fires this enigmatic way of thinking. They think " Its Pure"; you know, there are no in-betweens, you are one or the other, ( in my view they are both the same, just holding different opinions, but both the same coin; both human, just having a completely different way of thinking). You are Theist or Atheist, black or white, good or bad, stupid or smart;

My kind of Atheist can see through and understand all of that, understand that the human can be inbetween, can be one but understand the other; but that's VERY hard to grow to. To actually understand that a human can have trouble understanding why they are one gender, but have the ways and desires of another. That there are people who are sick of Theist and Atheist too, and don't want to be either one.

There are humans who are tired of humans and being human. Dogs don't get tired of being dogs. Cats don't try to be human. Fish don't try to imitate elephants.

Humans are the ones who are confused; and they can be very radical about even their confusion.

Post by **LarsMac** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:27 pm

For being a free-thinker, you sure have a lot of limits.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:31 pm

LarsMac;1476344 wrote: For being a free-thinker, you sure have a lot of limits.

Oh I have a lot of limits, for sure.

I am curious; are you suggesting that you have no limitations?

Post by **LarsMac** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:43 pm

Mickiel;1476346 wrote: Oh I have a lot of limits, for sure.

I am curious; are you suggesting that you have no limitations?

Not at all. My limitations are all too often quite obvious.

But Hopefully, I continue to grow and slough off some of them.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:54 pm

LarsMac;1476349 wrote: Not at all. My limitations are all too often quite obvious.

But Hopefully, I continue to grow and slough off some of them.

Its the limitations that I have which I cannot see that concern me the most.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:59 pm

Even the Universe has its limitations. That why it has the need to expand.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 3:17 pm

FourPart;1476352 wrote: Even the Universe has its limitations. That why it has the need to expand.

I am curious, can Atheism expand?

Explain to me the future of Atheism ; I would like to hear your answer.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 3:23 pm

Mickiel;1476356 wrote: I am curious, can Atheism expand?

Explain to me the future of Atheism ; I would like to hear your answer.

Atheists expand by seeking out the REAL answers. Theists deny reality in the belief that the only answer to everything is their God & therefore have no need to expand.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:19 pm

FourPart;1476358 wrote: Atheists expand by seeking out the REAL answers. Theists deny reality in the belief that the only answer to everything is their God & therefore have no need to expand.

You will expand when you realize that there are many Theist who are seeking out the real answers; you're talking with one and don't even realize it.

Post by **LarsMac** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:08 pm

FourPart;1476358 wrote: Atheists expand by seeking out the REAL answers. Theists deny reality in the belief that the only answer to everything is their God & therefore have no need to expand.

That seems a fairly narrow PoV, in my not-so humble opinion.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:16 pm

LarsMac;1476380 wrote: That seems a fairly narrow PoV, in my not-so humble opinion.

I think narrowness is the result of needing to lower the views of others in order to give your views an enlightened elevation. Theist and Atheist who need to do this to each other, is old school, in my view.

And I hope the new generation on both sides advance from needing to do this, to doing something about it that could open dialog that this type of thinking closes.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:09 pm

LarsMac;1476380 wrote: That seems a fairly narrow PoV, in my not-so humble opinion.See what I mean about theists not being able to get atheism. There is no god or room for god in the life of the atheist. We acknowledge with certainty that there is no god - nohow or nowhere. To you that appears arrogant, but it isn't, it's simply unambiguous. You're always leaving open the possibility of woo which to the atheist is just plain silly and a waste of time that clouds judgment. You'll never get that unless...But once one realizes atheism one cannot unknow it and that's why there's no place for god or religion with the atheist.

And you can't adopt a philosophical view of atheism to try to understand it. It's not a philosophy, it's an acknowledgment of fact, pure fact.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:15 pm

Mickiel;1476377 wrote: You will expand when you realize that there are many Theist who are seeking out the real answers; you're talking with one and don't even realize it.I was one of those theists, it's why I became an atheist. That said, you don't decide to go from theism to atheism, it happens as the veil lifts from your eyes. It took me years.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:20 pm

This is a great depiction of what it's like to be an atheist, imv.

Post by **LarsMac** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:32 pm

OK, Pal, Drop your cross one more time and yer outa the parade.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:43 pm

Ahso!;1476392 wrote: I was one of those theists, it's why I became an atheist. That said, you don't decide to go from theism to atheism, it happens as the veil lifts from your eyes. It took me years.

Flip the coin the other way; I know Theist who were once Atheist; they did not decide to change, they described it as a veil being lifted from them, ( or a revelation). It took them years.

You cannot limit this experience to only one side or one experience, ( or only Theism going to Atheism), it goes both ways, its ambidextrious, its bisexual- it goes both ways.

Its not just you're way. Its not just your experience. You can only see it through you're eyes, you cannot see it through another's eyes, another's experience; it is you who are limiting your life experience.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:44 pm

LarsMac;1476394 wrote: OK, Pal, Drop your cross one more time and yer outa the parade.That's an interesting reply; "toughen up". Though when I or Dawkins, Mahr or most other atheists do and begin to stand our ground or highlight contradictions we're then accused of being belligerent by you theists. Though I understand that most theists are by default martyrs and have developed a victims mentality, I do wish they'd make up their minds.