What does it mean to Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ?

Discuss the Christian Faith.
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What does it mean to Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ?

Post by sheep »

What does it mean to "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ".

About 90% of the time the word believe (used in the new testament part of the bible) comes from a Greek word which is a verb and a verb is an action word. If you want to know what you really believe look at your actions: as your actions are a mirror showing what you really believe.

The words most associated with Jesus are the words Lord and Christ. The word Lord is used 728 times in the new testament part of the bible and most of those uses refer to Jesus, while the word Christ is used 571 times and all of those are a reference to Jesus.

The term Christ is synonymous with the term Messiah: both come from the Greek and Hebrew words "anointed".

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince/Commander...

Now the Messiah was to be King of the Jews.

Mat 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

Mat 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Mat 2:3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.

Mat 2:4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ/Messiah/King should be born.

Mat 2:5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,

Mat 2:6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

So what does it mean to believe in Jesus? It means you believe (verb: through actions) he is your Governor/King/Lord and thus you are his servant: anyone who doesn't believe this is not a Christian (follower of Christ). If you are not committed to following Jesus' teachings: how are you his sheep/follower? You are not.

Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.



If Jesus was given his words from God the Father and Jesus is the Christ/King/Commander/Governer/Messiah is it not clear that what Jesus spoke are actual commandments?

Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you...

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1Jn 2:2 And he (Jesus) is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him (Jesus), if we keep his (Jesus') commandments.

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him (Jesus), and keepeth not his (Jesus') commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his (Jesus') word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him (Jesus').

1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him (Jesus) ought himself also so to walk, even as he (Jesus) walked.



There is a very continuous theme in the NEW TESTAMENT/COVENANT. To deny the Lordship of Christ, in your life, is to deny Christ and not to obey him as Lord is to deny his Lordship.
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You've fallen for a tale with no basis in reality?

Which version have you gone for. Father son and holy ghost or the one and only begotten son - leaving aside god is at best a fornicator.
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I believe that he was a man who existed & that he was basically a Hippy Guru - a total Political Revolutionary, with such a novel aspect on life that, just as with latter day philosophers, took those that came across him by storm. No 'Son' of an imaginary Deity. Just a man.

And to believe does NOT mean to be a Sheep (an animal with no will of its own, I might add) or a Follower. I believe Hitler existed. I do not follow him, though.
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FourPart;1470635 wrote: I believe that he was a man who existed & that he was basically a Hippy Guru - a total Political Revolutionary, with such a novel aspect on life that, just as with latter day philosophers, took those that came across him by storm. No 'Son' of an imaginary Deity. Just a man.

And to believe does NOT mean to be a Sheep (an animal with no will of its own, I might add) or a Follower. I believe Hitler existed. I do not follow him, though.


The Greek word for believe is the verb form of the word persuasion. To be persuaded in Jesus is to be persuaded in him for who he says he is. The abstract form, or noun form, of the word persuasion, is what you are describing: in your form of the word believe. If you are persuaded in Jesus without actions that is not a verb form of persuasion.
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sheep;1470681 wrote: The Greek word for believe is the verb form of the word persuasion. To be persuaded in Jesus is to be persuaded in him for who he says he is. The abstract form, or noun form, of the word persuasion, is what you are describing: in your form of the word believe. If you are persuaded in Jesus without actions that is not a verb form of persuasion.
Utterly wrong. I believe in Jesus as the person he is on record as heving existed. You are trying to say that this is to believe in the superstition that others attribute to him. These are 2 totally different beliefs. One is absolute. The other is abstract.
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FourPart;1470724 wrote: Utterly wrong. I believe in Jesus as the person he is on record as heving existed. You are trying to say that this is to believe in the superstition that others attribute to him. These are 2 totally different beliefs. One is absolute. The other is abstract.


Everyone that saw Jesus in his day believed that he existed. What does that prove? Verbs are action words and how is your form of belief a verb?
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Post by FourPart »

Your argument is not only irrelevant, it's wrong. The word 'believe' is a verb & the way in which I have used it is correct. However, the fact that it is a verb has nothing to do with the subject of belief. 'Move' is a verb, but the context in which it is used has nothing to do with the verb itself. "I move the furniture" is a physical concept", whereas "I move people with my singing" is abstract. Yes, the people who saw him in Jesus' time believed in his existence. How could they fail to do otherwise? His existence was there to see. To believe him to be a Messiah, on the other hand is nothing to to do with the other. The first is based on irrefutable fact. The other is based on an opinion.

Furthermore, 'belief' is equally valid whether it be in the positive or the negative context. "You believe he is a Messiah" is a valid sentence, with which I imagine you would agree. "I believe he was never a Messiah, nor is there any such thing as a Messiah" is also a valid sentence. Both sentences are correct AND both sentences are true. The grammar was never in question. However, your claim that the use of the word which, in its very nature is subjective, is absolute & that to use it affirms that anyone who believes in the physical existence of Jesus must, therefore also believe in the abstract concept of him being the son of an imaginary non-entity is false as well as insulting.
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Post by gmc »

FourPart;1470635 wrote: I believe that he was a man who existed & that he was basically a Hippy Guru - a total Political Revolutionary, with such a novel aspect on life that, just as with latter day philosophers, took those that came across him by storm. No 'Son' of an imaginary Deity. Just a man.

And to believe does NOT mean to be a Sheep (an animal with no will of its own, I might add) or a Follower. I believe Hitler existed. I do not follow him, though.


Since you don't believe in his divinity that would mean to many "christians" that you are not a christian since you do not believe as they do. Be glad you live in secular times at least no one will burn you at the stake as a heretic - for the moment anyway let's hope we never go back to thise days.

Incidentally anyone who believes sheep don't have a will of it's own has never seen one head butting a dog.
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sheep;1470627 wrote: What does it mean to "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ".


To "believe" that Jesus is "the Lord" is your first problem. I knew a fellow from Cardiff who "believed" pigs could fly. He could never produce a flying pig, not even a photo of one airborne ...... but he still "believed" it. I was going to draw an analogy but I forgot what it was.

Cardiff = Jerusalem? Lord = Flight? Jesus = Pig?
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Post by sheep »

FourPart;1470755 wrote: Your argument is not only irrelevant, it's wrong. The word 'believe' is a verb & the way in which I have used it is correct. However, the fact that it is a verb has nothing to do with the subject of belief. 'Move' is a verb, but the context in which it is used has nothing to do with the verb itself. "I move the furniture" is a physical concept", whereas "I move people with my singing" is abstract. Yes, the people who saw him in Jesus' time believed in his existence. How could they fail to do otherwise? His existence was there to see. To believe him to be a Messiah, on the other hand is nothing to to do with the other. The first is based on irrefutable fact. The other is based on an opinion.

Furthermore, 'belief' is equally valid whether it be in the positive or the negative context. "You believe he is a Messiah" is a valid sentence, with which I imagine you would agree. "I believe he was never a Messiah, nor is there any such thing as a Messiah" is also a valid sentence. Both sentences are correct AND both sentences are true. The grammar was never in question. However, your claim that the use of the word which, in its very nature is subjective, is absolute & that to use it affirms that anyone who believes in the physical existence of Jesus must, therefore also believe in the abstract concept of him being the son of an imaginary non-entity is false as well as insulting.


Let me deal with your post in reverse. You say there is no God, can you be 100% sure? Is consciousness a byproduct of the physical, or does consciousness create the physical: as Robert Lanza suggests in his book "biocentrism". As he points out, quantum physics appears to confirm the second is true and that reality is in consciousness, not in the physical which we are conscious of.

The concept that consciousness is eternal can easily explain eternity in uncontradicting terms, while a belief in the physical being eternal has all kinds of contradictions and thus some have tried to justify those contradictions by claiming multidimensional universes, which is to say, since the universe cannot self-exist alone, lets create the idea that there are more physical universes that cannot self-exist. You say there is no God, I say there is only God: as without consciousness nothing actually exists.

You want to claim there is no God, fine, but can you prove that what you see is real apart from consciousness? No, you cannot, as dreams have the exact same structures as non-dream states: except they are longer. What state of consciousness will you have after you die? Might this life be but a dream and a new, longer, conscious state await you still? According to Jesus, the bible, most believers in God and myself, the answer is Yes: this is exactly what will happen. Can you disprove this? No. So keep your ignorant comments to yourself. Your claim, there is no God, is nothing more than an assumption and I believe my belief in God has more grounds in fact than your claim there is no God. You have absolutely no proof God does not exist and as I stated, a belief in God not only makes sense to explain how the physical exists, you cannot even begin to explain how the physical exists and thus you make theories that need continual modifications once people catch on to the problems with them.

I'll make you a deal, you explain a better way to explain eternity from an uncontradicting perspective than consciousness and you can post there is no God, otherwise don't: as your statements are less sound than a belief in God and your ignorance is all that you have.

Next, a person's belief is not belief if not acted upon, actually it is disbelief if not acted upon and thus their belief is disbelief. And this is the issue with your belief in Jesus. You say you believe he existed, but you don't believe what he said: only that he existed. Why are you here? I'm curious. Sure you believe in Jesus' existence, but Jesus wasn't interested in people believing in his existence: but rather in his teachings. And Jesus did teach of God and he claimed his teachings are of God; if you don't believe Jesus why defend that you believe Jesus existed and then condemn what he promoted: if you don't believe his words?

I actually think you're not here to fight for the sake of being a **** disturber, but rather you like what Jesus taught on some levels, but just not on others. I don't think you deny the goodness in Jesus' teachings, on expelling evil from one's actions, by being committed to doing good instead of justifying evil, but I think you are much like others who want to take a piece of Jesus but not the whole package.
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As I said to Pahu, nor can you disprove that Flying Pink Elephants don't exist. They are certainly no less credible.
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FourPart;1470861 wrote: As I said to Pahu, nor can you disprove that Flying Pink Elephants don't exist. They are certainly no less credible.


Uhhg. Criticising the Flying Pink Elephants is going too far. I belong to the Church Of FPE where I am an altar boy alternate Sundays, so I'll thank you not to insult me in such an abrasive fashion. :wah:
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FourPart;1470861 wrote: As I said to Pahu, nor can you disprove that Flying Pink Elephants don't exist. They are certainly no less credible.


Not only can you not prove a negative, but you probably cannot disprove one, either.
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FourPart;1470861 wrote: As I said to Pahu, nor can you disprove that Flying Pink Elephants don't exist. They are certainly no less credible.


I love how you avoid dealing with the issue that consciousness actually makes logical sense to explain how the existence of the seen universe exists. Can you prove consciousness exists? Is it not more credible to believe in consciousness than pink flying elephants? Let me now ask: is it not thus far more credible to believe in an Eternal Consciousness than to believe in pink flying elephants?

I will ask you again to make a logical argument to explain where the physical came from that makes more sense than that it came from an Eternal Consciousness.

Your pink elephant argument doesn't fly here.
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Post by gmc »

You cannot proof something does not exist you are the one claiming god exists it is up to you to prove he does.

posted by sheep

I will ask you again to make a logical argument to explain where the physical came from that makes more sense than that it came from an Eternal Consciousness.


Your hypothesis is that the physical came from eternal consciousness. Now prove it, I reject your hypothesis it is not enough to merely assert that is must be the case. If you believe it why do you believe it?

I would suggest that the physical world was created by pink flying elephants that we can't see them is not proof that they don't exist I defy you to prove that they don't.
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This is the argument I had with Pahu over the difference between Faith & Science. Science takes a hypothesis & seeks to prove it. Until such time it remains an unproven theory & not acceptable as fact. Faith, on the other hand, seeks to create a solution, no matter how bizarre, and mould it to fit the facts and then, accordingly consider their created solution to be the only 'factual solution' above all others.
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gmc;1470899 wrote: You cannot proof something does not exist you are the one claiming god exists it is up to you to prove he does.

posted by sheep



Your hypothesis is that the physical came from eternal consciousness. Now prove it, I reject your hypothesis it is not enough to merely assert that is must be the case. If you believe it why do you believe it?

I would suggest that the physical world was created by pink flying elephants that we can't see them is not proof that they don't exist I defy you to prove that they don't.


Can you prove the physical world exists? I suggest all you can prove is consciousness, as dreams invalidate that the physical world can be proven and since all we can prove is consciousness consciousness is a more logical beginning for our existence: since that is all one can prove. Consciousness can have an eternal existence, while your own scientists have negated that the physical can be eternal. I suggest you have absolutely no foundation for how the universe exists and yet you cannot even begin to disprove that consciousness can absolutely be how it does.

P.S. and even if you claim you don't dream it doesn't negate the argument.
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Cogito Ergo Sum
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FourPart;1470918 wrote: Cogito Ergo Sum


All you prove is that consciousness proves you exist, but it doesn't prove anything but consciousness exists: you are proving my argument here. Thank-you. The problem is that consciousness is all that one can prove and therefore eternal consciousness is more plausible than the physical world. What is in question is not consciousness, but the physical: which you base your science upon.

Since you have proved consciousness exists, I now ask you to prove the physical exists outside of consciousness. Oh but you can't. So what is real and what is believed? Is not consciousness real and the physical questionable? Prove the physical exists outside of consciousness. You see you can't and therefore God is a more plausible fact than the physical: as the physical can't be proven any more than pink flying pigs, or elephants, can.
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sheep;1470929 wrote: You see you can't and therefore God is a more plausible fact than the physical: as the physical can't be proven any more than pink flying pigs can.
Blasphemer. That's Pink Flying ELEPHANTS.

Besides you have also proven my point inasmuch as your God is no more plausible than my Pink Flying Elephants.
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FourPart;1470930 wrote: Blasphemer. That's Pink Flying ELEPHANTS.

Besides you have also proven my point inasmuch as your God is no more plausible than my Pink Flying Elephants.


I love false logic...lol

You err: I have proven the physical world is equally provable to pink flying elephants. Eternal Consciousness is so far the only plausible fact without proving the physical, as a reality, outside of consciousness. So prove the physical exists outside of consciousness: I'm still waiting.
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Without the conciousness of man the physical evidence of reality is not recognised.

Cogito Ergo Sum. I think, therefore I am.

I = Reality.

Think = Abstract / Conciousness

Am = Existence = Reality.

You think there is a God. Your thinking is just your conciousness. As you say, your consiousness can't prove reality. Therefore your God is not real.
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FourPart;1470940 wrote: Without the conciousness of man the physical evidence of reality is not recognised.

Cogito Ergo Sum. I think, therefore I am.

I = Reality.

Think = Abstract / Conciousness

Am = Existence = Reality.

You think there is a God. Your thinking is just your conciousness. As you say, your consiousness can't prove reality. Therefore your God is not real.


You are still missing the point. Since consciousness is all that can be proven and something cannot come from nothing, unless it is the first cause, then consciousness is the only provable likely first cause: as consciousness is all that can be proven; eternal consciousness (God) is more likely a reality than what you see: as the only absolute evidence one has is consciousness.
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It's the age old Chicken / Egg situation. If nothing can some from nothing, then God cannot exist either.
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FourPart;1473771 wrote: It's the age old Chicken / Egg situation. If nothing can some from nothing, then God cannot exist either.


Again you err: there must be an eternal first cause which by definition has no beginning.
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You are using the same argument to prove the existence of a God as you would use to prove the non-existence of a God.

Energy exists. It has always existed.

Energy & matter are interchangable.

Time has been demonstrated to be a dynamic variable, as opposed to being static & linear.

It is, therefore, theoretically possible for time to have a negative value & therefore to exist before time itself.

An interesting paradox.
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FourPart;1473774 wrote: You are using the same argument to prove the existence of a God as you would use to prove the non-existence of a God.

Energy exists. It has always existed.

Energy & matter are interchangable.

Time has been demonstrated to be a dynamic variable, as opposed to being static & linear.

It is, therefore, theoretically possible for time to have a negative value & therefore to exist before time itself.

An interesting paradox.


Actually I'm not. I am using the only factual piece of evidence to claim that consciousness is provable, as matter is not, and therefore one should not assume matter as a provable fact beyond consciousness. I am stating consciousness is all we have as fact and therefore eternal consciousness is the only probable factual evidence that we actually have.

You have tried to claim that a belief in God is a claim assumed against all the physical evidence of science. I am claiming that all physical science is not provable beyond consciousness and what we see in consciousness is not proof of the physical, but only proof of consciousness and it is more viable that eternal consciousness exists than the perceptions of our consciousness.

The way I see time is that all conscious beings, that have a beginning, measure time from that beginning; but the eternal, having no beginning, would have an awareness of all that exists, or could possibly exist, and all would be present in its existence. I see all things that are subject to change as being necessarily finite and thus not possible conceptual ideas to explain the eternal. Consciousness actually makes theoretical sense to explain how eternity, and the finite existence of our conscious estate, can coexist without the contradictions that other ideas present.
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You've been watching The Matrix haven't you?

You are moving into the realms of Philosophy, which is basically that of Imagination, but unlike Religion, Philosophy doesn't aspire to be anything other than that of the world of Imagination & Conciousness.
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Post by sheep »

FourPart;1473823 wrote: You've been watching The Matrix haven't you?

You are moving into the realms of Philosophy, which is basically that of Imagination, but unlike Religion, Philosophy doesn't aspire to be anything other than that of the world of Imagination & Conciousness.


I am actually staying with the facts and adding reasoning to them and the only provable fact is consciousness, not the physical.

You want to use science to prove what is and I say okay let's do it, but all that we can prove is consciousness and if you want to prove the physical exists outside of consciousness, I say you cannot do so without making an assumption and isn't that your problem with those who propagate the existence of God?

Now since consciousness is the only provable fact: where did it come from? Don't all sciences start with facts and then use theories to prove out other facts? Now since all we have that is factual is consciousness: shouldn't we stick to the facts and try and use probable theories to explain the facts that exist?

I think you have a faulty belief system, which is based upon unprovable facts, and actually which is based upon assumptions that you would ridicule others for: isn't that your problem with those who try and claim a belief in God against a lack of physical evidence? So, I say, prove out that the physical world exists outside of consciousness. As we have established: you cannot. But you ridicule others for believing in things they cannot prove: who is the fool now?

At least a belief in God uses factual evidence (consciousness) to come to its concussion, while you use not one thread of provable fact to base your theory upon.
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Therein lies the problem. Conciousness, being an abstract item is not something that can be proven. The human mind is essentially no different to a complex set of interlinking programs. A computer also has a complex array of interlinking programs, but the question is whether or not it has conciousness. You may say not, but can you also prove that your own conciousness is not simply a computer program designed to give the impression of what we might call consciousness.

Consciousness cannot be proved & can only be presumed to be real. On the same count, the concious observance of reality can only be seen through the eyes of a consciousness which may, or may not exist.
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sheep;1470627 wrote: What does it mean to "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ".




It means that you've tossed logic out the window and opted for superstition - in hopes that there really is an "after life" - and that you'll be teacher's pet when you get there. Most us hope there is an "after life" but unlike those who believe in Jesus Christ as the ONLY saviour, the rest of us hope that everyone will be in favour when we arrive ...... not only Christians, bloody capitalists.
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FourPart;1473836 wrote: Therein lies the problem. Conciousness, being an abstract item is not something that can be proven. The human mind is essentially no different to a complex set of interlinking programs. A computer also has a complex array of interlinking programs, but the question is whether or not it has conciousness. You may say not, but can you also prove that your own conciousness is not simply a computer program designed to give the impression of what we might call consciousness.

Consciousness cannot be proved & can only be presumed to be real. On the same count, the concious observance of reality can only be seen through the eyes of a consciousness which may, or may not exist.


Now that is funny. First you try and use consciousness to prove your argument; your previous post:

"Without the conciousness of man the physical evidence of reality is not recognised.

Cogito Ergo Sum. I think, therefore I am.

I = Reality.

Think = Abstract / Conciousness

Am = Existence = Reality."

Now you are trying to claim that one can deny their own existence as a reality. I think you might need to be checked into a mental institution with that logic.

All that is now being seen by your logic is that you will do anything to oppose what disproves your desired reality: even if it goes against denying your own existence. How sad.
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Post by sheep »

High Threshold;1473837 wrote: It means that you've tossed logic out the window and opted for superstition - in hopes that there really is an "after life" - and that you'll be teacher's pet when you get there. Most us hope there is an "after life" but unlike those who believe in Jesus Christ as the ONLY saviour, the rest of us hope that everyone will be in favour when we arrive ...... not only Christians, bloody capitalists.


Jesus was not a capitalist and how sad is it that you fail to have any appreciable understanding of what Jesus really represents.
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sheep;1473841 wrote: Now that is funny. First you try and use consciousness to prove your argument; your previous post:

"Without the conciousness of man the physical evidence of reality is not recognised.

Cogito Ergo Sum. I think, therefore I am.

I = Reality.

Think = Abstract / Conciousness

Am = Existence = Reality."

Now you are trying to claim that one can deny their own existence as a reality. I think you might need to be checked into a mental institution with that logic.

All that is now being seen by your logic is that you will do anything to oppose what disproves your desired reality: even if it goes against denying your own existence. How sad.


As I said - That is the paradox.
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sheep;1473842 wrote: Jesus was not a capitalist and how sad is it that you fail to have any appreciable understanding of what Jesus really represents.


What Jesus was makes no difference at all. What he represents is what Christians profess ….. and Christianity is Capitalist to think that only they can ascend to heaven.
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High Threshold;1473854 wrote: What Jesus was makes no difference at all. What he represents is what Christians profess ….. and Christianity is Capitalist to think that only they can ascend to heaven.
I get what you're saying, but as Capitalism refers to Physical Wealth I don't think that's quite the right term. I think a more accurate term would be Exclusive.
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High Threshold;1473854 wrote: What Jesus was makes no difference at all. What he represents is what Christians profess ….. and Christianity is Capitalist to think that only they can ascend to heaven.


Jesus does not represent what today's professors of the religion hold to, that would be Paul's version of Christianity: not Jesus'. But yes Jesus did state that those who embrace loving their enemies would find mercy for showing mercy and those who did not embrace compassion, but rather retaliated with evil for evil, would find punishment for the retaliated punishment they exhibited. So what is your problem with that?
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FourPart;1473851 wrote: As I said - That is the paradox.


There is no paradox: as one cannot deny the existence of one's own consciousness. All you can deny is what you see, not the consciousness of your own existence. You seem to be having a problem understanding that what you see is not your consciousness: it is what you are conscious of.
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I see a colour which I know to be Red. Who is to say that when you see that same colour that you're not seeing it as what I would call Blue? My Cousin has Mono-Chromatic Colour Blindness, which he never even knew about until fairly recently, yet he has always been able to determine different colours. Theoretically this is not possible. The point is that he sees what he sees in the world of reality. It's his mind that makes up the rest through the power of his imagination.
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sheep;1473861 wrote: Jesus does not represent what today's professors of the religion hold to, that would be Paul's version of Christianity: not Jesus'. But yes Jesus did state that those who embrace loving their enemies would find mercy for showing mercy and those who did not embrace compassion, but rather retaliated with evil for evil, would find punishment for the retaliated punishment they exhibited. So what is your problem with that?
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

(John 14)

Sounds pretty exclusive to me.
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FourPart;1473866 wrote: Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

(John 14)

Sounds pretty exclusive to me.


Do we not judge a persons actions as virtuous or condemnable? Who else totally condemned men for all evil acts towards others: before Jesus came along? What problem do you have with Jesus claiming his teachings to be the standard of what is expected of men?
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FourPart;1473860 wrote: I get what you're saying, but as Capitalism refers to Physical Wealth I don't think that's quite the right term.


OK.



FourPart;1473860 wrote: I think a more accurate term would be Exclusive.


Naw, not strong enough. Let's find a compromise, shall we? "Fascist"?
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sheep;1473861 wrote: Jesus does not represent what today's professors of the religion hold to, that would be Paul's version of Christianity: not Jesus'. But yes Jesus did state that those who embrace loving their enemies would find mercy for showing mercy and those who did not embrace compassion, but rather retaliated with evil for evil, would find punishment for the retaliated punishment they exhibited. So what is your problem with that?


It doesn't matter. What Jesus represented was infidelity to Judaism …..... a blaspheme. Christianity itself is represented by the deeds and philosophy of Christians: discrimination, inequality, nepotism.
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High Threshold;1473877 wrote: It doesn't matter. What Jesus represented was infidelity to Judaism …..... a blaspheme. Christianity itself is represented by the deeds and philosophy of Christians: discrimination, inequality, nepotism.


The Messiah was to be King and establish a new covenant: that is why the Jews continually stated, Moses said... what do you say? The question was not if the Christ would uphold the old covenant, because the prophecies clearly stated he would establish a new one, the question was: is this Jesus really the Messiah? You really should learn more about the Jewish faith before you try and make arguments you are totally ignorant of.

As for your second statement, you are very ignorant if you think one who claims to be a follower of Christ (a professed Christian) is an actual follower of Christ (a real Christian). It is like saying: a person is an pig because they claim they are a pig. A real Christian is one that practices equality: as that is what one that loves their neighbor as themselves does. As for showing favoritism towards others: a real Christian is loving to the just and the unjust; but God does reserve the right to bestow his favor and blessings upon those who please him: do you have a problem with that?

I find it sad that you continually make red herring arguments: you are not helping your cause.

I really think you only post in the hopes of trying to dissuade people from believing in God, or following the teachings of Christ. But in looking back at your previous posts, I see a person that states things like, believing in God is like believing in the tooth fairy and yet when arguments are made that show how believing in God is more rational than believing in the physical that cannot be proven outside of consciousness, you fail to have any rational argument to prove the physical actually exists outside of consciousness. I am waiting for one shred of evidence to prove that the physical exists outside of consciousness. You say a belief in God cannot be proven. I say the physical world cannot be proven outside of consciousness and that consciousness is the only provable fact and therefore God is the only rational assumption one can make: BASED UPON THE FACTS.

Is it us theists that are diluted or is it you Atheists whom are diluted? The factual evidence points to you Atheists as having a belief system that is absolutely baseless upon one shred of factual evidence.
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posted by sheep

I say the physical world cannot be proven outside of consciousness and that consciousness is the only provable fact and therefore God is the only rational assumption one can make: BASED UPON THE FACTS.




If consciousness is the only fact it is not rational to assume that god must therefore be the one that brought you in to existence. It would be more rational to assume that you are god and created the world around you. We are all figments of your imagination.
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Post by sheep »

gmc;1473881 wrote:



If consciousness is the only fact it is not rational to assume that god must therefore be the one that brought you in to existence. It would be more rational to assume that you are god and created the world around you. We are all figments of your imagination.


Lol, everything in my conscious awareness tells me that I have a beginning and you say I should claim to be eternal? You say it is not rational to believe in God. I say it is the only rational that makes sense.

Sometimes I wonder if some of you people actually think about what you are saying, or if you just have verbal diarrhea.
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sheep;1473880 wrote: ..... The question was not if the Christ would uphold the old covenant, because the prophecies clearly stated he would establish a new one ......


Do you not understand English? "Grandad will arrive in a Morris Minor and upon arriving he will then discard the Morris and peddle his push bike the rest of the journey" ....... is not the the same thing as, "He will arrive on a push bike."
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sheep;1473883 wrote: Lol, everything in my conscious awareness tells me that I have a beginning and you say I should claim to be eternal? You say it is not rational to believe in God. I say it is the only rational that makes sense.


Exactly the point. It is in YOUR consciousness that tells you that reality is not real at all & that the world exists only in YOUR conciousness. Conciousness, by definition is in the mind. The mind is the home of Imagination. Ergo Consciousness is Imagination. Imagination is not Reality. In YOUR Imagination you can decide for yourself what is Rational or not. YOU have decided to imagine that you are not eternal. YOU have decided to believe that you have a beginning. YOU have decided not to believe that you are God. Dreams are Imagination. Dream are part of Consciousness. You are living in a dreamworld where fantasy is reality & reality is fantasy.
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FourPart;1473890 wrote: Exactly the point. It is in YOUR consciousness that tells you that reality is not real at all & that the world exists only in YOUR conciousness. Conciousness, by definition is in the mind. The mind is the home of Imagination. Ergo Consciousness is Imagination. Imagination is not Reality. In YOUR Imagination you can decide for yourself what is Rational or not. YOU have decided to imagine that you are not eternal. YOU have decided to believe that you have a beginning. YOU have decided not to believe that you are God. Dreams are Imagination. Dream are part of Consciousness. You are living in a dreamworld where fantasy is reality & reality is fantasy.




Consciousness, by definition, is the awareness of self and self has the ability to dream, but the ability to dream is not consciousness. Strictly speaking: consciousness is the awareness of self and nothing more.

You did well up until you made the erroneous statement that consciousness is imagination. Consciousness is not imagination and that is where your whole statement falls apart. Your consciousness has a beginning and therefore it cannot be the beginning. You are making statements based upon false logic (errors). Something cannot come from nothing. Even if we can create something, in this conscious reality, from nothing: it still takes us to do the creating and it is not really coming from nothing, but rather, it is coming from us creating it.
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Post by sheep »

High Threshold;1473885 wrote: Do you not understand English? "Grandad will arrive in a Morris Minor and upon arriving he will then discard the Morris and peddle his push bike the rest of the journey" ....... is not the the same thing as, "He will arrive on a push bike."


Does anyone make any sense of High Threshold's ramblings?
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