Vatican to Be Grilled by U.N.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:25 pm

Should be interesting.

Vatican to Face U.N. Committee on Its Child Sex Abuse Record | TIME.com

BBC News - Vatican rebuffs United Nations sex abuse inquiries

The Vatican has refused to provide information requested by the United Nations on the alleged sexual abuse of children by priests, nuns or monks.

The Vatican said the cases were the responsibility of the judicial systems of countries where abuse took place.

Wonder if they will take the moral high ground and pretend they have no responsibility.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:30 pm

"Wonder if they will take the moral high ground and pretend they have no responsibility."

Devil made them do it.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:30 am

At least one cardinal is on record as saying it is the fault of the children for tempting them. The abusers are seen as sinners who had moments of weakness the effect on the victim inconsequential a lot of the comments from the catholic church suggest a distinct lack of empathy for the victims.

Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:34 am

The Vatican has institutionalized it's pedophile protection and should be held accountable.

The Vatican may also have a point in that it is up to individual governments to deal with this issue.

Note that what, 2 years ago when England and Germany were making legal noises at the Vatican, most other Western governments at on their hands and did nothing.

Those governments are no better in terms of morals than the Vatican.

For that evil to grow, all governments need do is nothing.

If I had ------

BRUCE COCKBURN - If I Had A Rocket Launcher - YouTube

Regards

DL

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:10 pm

I like things about this Pope.

Post by **LarsMac** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:36 am

gmc;1444604 wrote: At least one cardinal is on record as saying it is the fault of the children for tempting them. The abusers are seen as sinners who had moments of weakness the effect on the victim inconsequential a lot of the comments from the catholic church suggest a distinct lack of empathy for the victims.

That sounds like the same right-wing drivel the conservatives in the US have been using in defense of rapists. Come to think of it. that is the same logic the Muslim Clerics use for the same purpose.

So, it seems, that mindset is not just among the Catholic leadership. It needs to be hunted down and eradicated, wherever it comes from.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:40 am

LarsMac;1445945 wrote: That sounds like the same right-wing drivel the conservatives in the US have been using in defense of rapists. Come to think of it. that is the same logic the Muslim Clerics use for the same purpose.

So, it seems, that mindset is not just among the Catholic leadership. It needs to be hunted down and eradicated, wherever it comes from.

The mindset is also not religious at its core; perversion and lust are NOT religious connotations or caused by religion; perversion is a human tendency, and no particular group of humans hold a monopoly on it. And it is an affront to religion for anyone to insinuate that.

Post by **LarsMac** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:38 am

Mickiel;1445948 wrote: The mindset is also not religious at its core; perversion and lust are NOT religious connotations or caused by religion; perversion is a human tendency, and no particular group of humans hold a monopoly on it. And it is an affront to religion for anyone to insinuate that.

True. The religious leaders, though, should be at the spearhead of the drive to prevent such behavior, and not be the authoritative voice blaming the victims.

Just like in the past, when many church leaders spoke up in support of slavery, instead of being a driving force to end it.

Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:01 pm

Mickiel;1445882 wrote: I like things about this Pope.

So much for the Protestant distaste for Papal indulgences.

How things have changed.

Protestants have forgotten that what the Pope just recently did with indulgences is what split the church in the first place.

You now embrace what you once hated.

:-5:-5

Regards

DL

Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:05 pm

LarsMac;1445945 wrote: That sounds like the same right-wing drivel the conservatives in the US have been using in defense of rapists. Come to think of it. that is the same logic the Muslim Clerics use for the same purpose.

So, it seems, that mindset is not just among the Catholic leadership. It needs to be hunted down and eradicated, wherever it comes from.

It is institutionalized. The only way to rid yourself of something that deep is to get rid of the institution.

Any who have protected an institution knows that that is the only way to end it's vile ways. You cannot rehabilitate an institution.

Regards

DL

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:30 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1445971 wrote: So much for the Protestant distaste for Papal indulgences.

How things have changed.

Protestants have forgotten that what the Pope just recently did with indulgences is what split the church in the first place.

You now embrace what you once hated.

:-5:-5

Regards

DL

You continue to make errors in your judgement of me; I don't embrace the Vatican or the Pope, and I never hated them either.

Your judgemen of people is not sound; and I have seen this often in you.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:31 pm

LarsMac;1445955 wrote: True. The religious leaders, though, should be at the spearhead of the drive to prevent such behavior, and not be the authoritative voice blaming the victims.

Just like in the past, when many church leaders spoke up in support of slavery, instead of being a driving force to end it.

I can agree with that.

Post by **LarsMac** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:59 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1445971 wrote: So much for the Protestant distaste for Papal indulgences.

How things have changed.

Protestants have forgotten that what the Pope just recently did with indulgences is what split the church in the first place.

You now embrace what you once hated.

:-5:-5

Regards

DL

I don't think that most Protestants of today give that much thought to the workings, or the history of the Catholic Church.

I'm sure there are still some who do, but most do not.

Within the circles I run, most of the big church organizations have reached a state of irrelevance.

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1445973 wrote: It is institutionalized. The only way to rid yourself of something that deep is to get rid of the institution.

Any who have protected an institution knows that that is the only way to end it's vile ways. You cannot rehabilitate an institution.

Regards

DL

Well, either the institution reforms, and rehabilitates itself, or it will slowly fade into history.

It's a matter of evolution. Adapt or die off.

Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:38 pm

I am not an atheist but religions have not walked their talk. Any of them.

As a spiritual Gnostic Christian, I think that that shames us all.

But who cares? No one who can do anything about things it seems.

Regards

DL

Post by **LarsMac** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:50 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1446041 wrote: I am not an atheist but religions have not walked their talk. Any of them.

As a spiritual Gnostic Christian, I think that that shames us all.

But who cares? No one who can do anything about things it seems.

Regards

DL

The only thing we can really do about anything is within ourselves.

Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:09 pm

LarsMac;1446043 wrote: The only thing we can really do about anything is within ourselves.

Hogwash.

What did Jesus say? You will know my people by their works and deeds.

For evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing.

Regards

DL

Post by **LarsMac** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:33 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1446047 wrote: Hogwash.

What did Jesus say? You will know my people by their works and deeds.

For evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing.

Regards

DL

Until you are the change you expect to see, you can change nothing.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:43 pm

gmc;1444604 wrote: At least one cardinal is on record as saying it is the fault of the children for tempting them. The abusers are seen as sinners who had moments of weakness the effect on the victim inconsequential a lot of the comments from the catholic church suggest a distinct lack of empathy for the victims.

link please

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:45 pm

gmc;1444558 wrote: Should be interesting.

Vatican to Face U.N. Committee on Its Child Sex Abuse Record | TIME.com

BBC News - Vatican rebuffs United Nations sex abuse inquiries

Wonder if they will take the moral high ground and pretend they have no responsibility.

Wonder if anybody really cares beyond their own bigotry?

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:47 pm

AnneBoleyn;1444561 wrote: "Wonder if they will take the moral high ground and pretend they have no responsibility."

Devil made them do it.

That was insightful.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:50 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1444662 wrote: The Vatican has institutionalized it's pedophile protection and should be held accountable.

OK, whatever that means.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:52 pm

Mickiel;1445882 wrote: I like things about this Pope.

Me too.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:17 pm

LarsMac;1445945 wrote: That sounds like the same right-wing drivel the conservatives in the US have been using in defense of rapists.

woo hoo

That was a real good one buddy.

LarsMac;1445945 wrote: Come to think of it. that is the same logic the Muslim Clerics use for the same purpose.

Now maybe you can explain to the rest of us just what that purpose is.

LarsMac;1445945 wrote: So, it seems, that mindset is not just among the Catholic leadership. It needs to be hunted down and eradicated, wherever it comes from.

Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:01 am

LarsMac;1446051 wrote: Until you are the change you expect to see, you can change nothing.

Just full of clichés eh?

Recognize that sometimes such quotes are garbage and useless.

Regards

DL

Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:04 am

tude dog;1446055 wrote: OK, whatever that means.

It means it is standard operating procedures to protect their pedophiles.

Regards

DL

Post by **LarsMac** » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:17 am

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1446072 wrote: Just full of clichï¿½s eh?

Recognize that sometimes such quotes are garbage and useless.

Regards

DL

Recognize that sometimes a cliche is more than a cliche.

If you are rude and inconsiderate, the whole world will seem like a grumpy place.

Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:26 am

LarsMac;1446077 wrote: Recognize that sometimes a cliche is more than a cliche.

If you are rude and inconsiderate, the whole world will seem like a grumpy place.

Sigh.

Regards

DL

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:09 am

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1446073 wrote: It means it is standard operating procedures to protect their pedophiles.

Regards

DL

Wish I could thank you for that, but it really wasn't helpful at all.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:30 am

tude dog;1446052 wrote: link please

My apologies, not a cardinal

Famous Roman Catholic Priest Blames Children For Their Rapes | The New Civil Rights Movement

Nobody in the catholic church seems to have disagreed with him, on the contrary.

Pope Blames Child Abuse Scandal on Society - CBS News

Catholic League’s Bill Donohue Defends Priest Who Blamed Children For Their Abuse | The New Civil Rights Movement

It wasn't me it was them that tempted me.

posted by mickiel

The mindset is also not religious at its core; perversion and lust are NOT religious connotations or caused by religion; perversion is a human tendency, and no particular group of humans hold a monopoly on it. And it is an affront to religion for anyone to insinuate that.

perhaps true but what is religious is the tendency to blame the victim. Goes back to concept of original sin in christian theology, sex is original sin, adam gave in to temptation so it's his fault we got chucked out of paradise but it was eve who tempted him and so began thousands of years of misogyny.

Doesn't matter how tempted you are at the end of the day you are the one who makes the decision to give in. Religion has an unhealthy attitude to sex you see it at it's most extreme in the habib but christians are not far behind, the notion that we are all born sinners and have to be saved and you can sin as much as you like so long as you ask for forgiveness and that makes it OK. A sinner saved tough **** for the victims is the result.

So far as child abuse is concerned only someone with a really perverted way of looking at things could even think about blaming the child. Only the religious ever seriously come out with the argument the victim was asking for it and was guilty of being tempting. Rape is the only crime of assault where the victim has to prove they were "good"

Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:33 am

tude dog;1446082 wrote: Wish I could thank you for that, but it really wasn't helpful at all.

And their protecting pedophiles is not helpful to the new victims either.

I am French speaking English and if you cannot understand common language, I don't see how I can help you.

Just what words can't you figure out?

Regards

DL

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:38 am

gmc;1446088 wrote:

posted by mickiel

perhaps true but what is religious is the tendency to blame the victim. Goes back to concept of original sin in christian theology, sex is original sin, adam gave in to temptation so it's his fault we got chucked out of paradise but it was eve who tempted him and so began thousands of years of misogyny.

Doesn't matter how tempted you are at the end of the day you are the one who makes the decision to give in. Religion has an unhealthy attitude to sex you see it at it's most extreme in the habib but christians are not far behind, the notion that we are all born sinners and have to be saved and you can sin as much as you like so long as you ask for forgiveness and that makes it OK. A sinner saved tough **** for the victims is the result. :

Sex was not the original sin, I totally disagree with that teaching, whoever teaches it. Lust for something off limits was the original sin, not sex; Adam and Eve had a green light to mate from God. Eve committed the first sin, she lusted after the fruit on the forbidden tree. Adams sin was letting Eve do all that she did, and he did absolutely nothing about it; he just stood there.

I also disagree that religion has an " Unhealthy attitude toward sex", I strongly disagree with that. Religion has in fact, one of the most healthy approaches to sex that I am conscious of. Don't do it until you get married. I would put that approach up to any other that you care to list where health is concerned.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:17 am

gmc;1446088 wrote: My apologies, not a cardinal

Famous Roman Catholic Priest Blames Children For Their Rapes | The New Civil Rights Movement

One old priest?

gmc;1446088 wrote: Nobody in the catholic church seems to have disagreed with him,

I don't know what the New Civil Rights Movement's agenda is, except to present a particular point of view, not so much to present a full picture.

Apparently somebody got to him,

I apologize for my comments. I did not intend to blame the victim. A priest (or anyone else) who abuses a minor is always wrong and is always responsible. My mind and my way of expressing myself are not as clear as they used to be. I have spent my life trying to help others the best that I could. I deeply regret any harm I have caused to anyone.

For Immediate Release: August 30, 2012 â€“ Franciscan Friars of the Renewal

gmc;1446088 wrote: on the contrary.

Pope Blames Child Abuse Scandal on Society - CBS News

Pope Benedict XVI told Vatican officials Monday that they must reflect on the church's culpability in its child sex-abuse scandal, but he also blamed a secular society in which he said the mistreatment of children was frighteningly common.

What does one expect from an entertainment show such as CBS NEWS? Short misleading headline grabber.

We are well aware of the particular gravity of this sin committed by priests and of our corresponding responsibility. But neither can we remain silent regarding the context of these times in which these events have come to light. There is a market in child pornography that seems in some way to be considered more and more normal by society. The psychological destruction of children, in which human persons are reduced to articles of merchandise, is a terrifying sign of the times. From Bishops of developing countries I hear again and again how sexual tourism threatens an entire generation and damages its freedom and its human dignity. The Book of Revelation includes among the great sins of Babylon â€“ the symbol of the worldâ€™s great irreligious cities â€“ the fact that it trades with bodies and souls and treats them as commodities (cf. Rev 18:13). In this context, the problem of drugs also rears its head, and with increasing force extends its octopus tentacles around the entire world â€“ an eloquent expression of the tyranny of mammon which perverts mankind. No pleasure is ever enough, and the excess of deceiving intoxication becomes a violence that tears whole regions apart â€“ and all this in the name of a fatal misunderstanding of freedom which actually undermines manâ€™s freedom and ultimately destroys it.

In order to resist these forces, we must turn our attention to their ideological foundations. In the 1970s, paedophilia was theorized as something fully in conformity with man and even with children. This, however, was part of a fundamental perversion of the concept of ethos. It was maintained â€“ even within the realm of Catholic theology â€“ that there is no such thing as evil in itself or good in itself. There is only a â€œbetter thanâ€ and a â€œworse thanâ€. Nothing is good or bad in itself. Everything depends on the circumstances and on the end in view. Anything can be good or also bad, depending upon purposes and circumstances. Morality is replaced by a calculus of consequences, and in the process it ceases to exist. The effects of such theories are evident today. Against them, Pope John Paul II, in his 1993 Encyclical Letter Veritatis Splendor, indicated with prophetic force in the great rational tradition of Christian ethos the essential and permanent foundations of moral action. Today, attention must be focussed anew on this text as a path in the formation of conscience. It is our responsibility to make these criteria audible and intelligible once more for people today as paths of true humanity, in the context of our paramount concern for mankind.

Address by the Holy Father on the occasion of Christmas greetings to the Roman Curia

Catholic Leagueâ€™s Bill Donohue Defends Priest Who Blamed Children For Their Abuse | The New Civil Rights Movement

The New Civil Rights Movement, leave something to be desired.

The accusation is scurrilous. In the same interview, Groeschel emphatically said that priests who are sexual abusers â€œhave to leave.â€ His reference to Sandusky was exactly the way a priest-psychologist might be expected to speak: â€œpoor guyâ€ conveys sympathy for his maladiesâ€”it is not a defense of his behavior! Indeed, Groeschel asked, â€œWhy didnâ€™t anyone say anything?â€

FR. GROESCHEL UNDER FIRE - Catholic League

gmc;1446088 wrote: It wasn't me it was them that tempted me.

Whatever.

Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:29 pm

Mickiel;1446091 wrote: [

I also disagree that religion has an Unhealthy attitude toward sex, I strongly disagree with that. Religion has in fact, one of the most healthy approaches to sex that I am conscious of. Don't do it until you get married. I would put that approach up to any other that you care to list where health is concerned.

God has no business in any bedroom of consenting adults.

Keep your jesus off my penis - YouTube

Regards

DL

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:34 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1446144 wrote: God has no business in any bedroom of consenting adults.

Keep your jesus off my penis - YouTube

Regards

DL

God had adults created, it was God who created sex; it was God who created both male and female sex organs.

It was God that did this, consenting adults did not create themselves or sex. You cannot remove him from that picture, but I understand why you are trying.

Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:51 pm

Mickiel;1446146 wrote: God had adults created, it was God who created sex; it was God who created both male and female sex organs.

It was God that did this, consenting adults did not create themselves or sex. You cannot remove him from that picture, but I understand why you are trying.

(7) If There is a Painting... - YouTube

I should need say no more about your pathetic God's creative powers.

Regards

DL

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:15 pm

posted by tude dog

One old priest?

No not just one you can find comments in a similar vein from all over the place that was simply the first one I found cos it hit the mainstream news.

I don't know what the New Civil Rights Movement's agenda is, except to present a particular point of view, not so much to present a full picture

I've never actually heard of them the link summarised his comments, if you like you can look up the on line catholic publications in the states and see for yourself what they have to say about the matter. Come to that I'd never heard of bill donohue either. I'm on a different continent remember the scandal in the states has it's own set of apologists for the church most of the ones I am aware of relate to the UK and ireland.

What does one expect from an entertainment show such as CBS NEWS? Short misleading headline grabber.

read what he actually said for yourself if you want. It's not exactly a made up story. He was also peddling the myth that hitler was an atheist - skimming over the effect of two thousand years of christian propaganda against the jews and hitler's avowed belief he was doing god's work. But I digress

posted by mickiel

Sex was not the original sin, I totally disagree with that teaching, whoever teaches it. Lust for something off limits was the original sin, not sex; Adam and Eve had a green light to mate from God. Eve committed the first sin, she lusted after the fruit on the forbidden tree. Adams sin was letting Eve do all that she did, and he did absolutely nothing about it; he just stood there.

You just rather made my point. Eve gets blamed for adam's weakness and eve the evil temptress came in to being along with eve's curse .

To the woman he said,

â€œI will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;

in pain you shall bring forth children.

Your desire shall be for your husband,

and he shall rule over you.â€ (Genesis 3:16)

As to which was the original sin, sex or lust for the forbidden you can argue the toss with someone else that believes in the nonsense.

God had adults created, it was God who created sex; it was God who created both male and female sex organs.

It was God that did this, consenting adults did not create themselves or sex. You cannot remove him from that picture, but I understand why you are trying.

If you want to believe in such a vindictive capricious god good luck to you.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:41 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1446151 wrote: (7) If There is a Painting... - YouTube

I should need say no more about your pathetic God's creative powers.

Regards

DL

I would not use the term " Pathetic" to describe your beliefs.

I am finished with you. You are too insulting and judgemental to debate in earnest.

Peace on your journey

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:51 pm

tude dog;1446055 wrote: OK, whatever that means.

It is quite specific, saying whatever does not make it any less of a valid claim - you might debate it but you cannot dismiss it without putting up a counter argument.

Singh-Song · Post by **Singh-Song** » Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:39 am

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1446151 wrote: (7) If There is a Painting... - YouTube

I should need say no more about your pathetic God's creative powers.

Regards

DL

It's your God too, Christian Bishop. If He is so pathetic, and (at least according to your definition) a construct of human imagination, then why are you so fascinated with him? Why do you feel the need to preach the message of a God which is in His nature naught but your imaginary friend? Let Him go, my friend. You already recognise that he is a construct, born of need from your prior sense of spiritual unfulfilment. Let Him go, give up your spiritual splinter figure, and you will be whole once more...

On the actual topic though, yes, I agree that the deep-rooted paedophilia and perversion which is only now being exposed beyond doubt through actual investigations into the previously untouchable Vatican, and the hierarchy of the Catholic Church around the world, is disgusting, and should be abhorrent to anyone. Does this make Catholicism in itself a depraved and perverted faith? It certainly tips the scales towards being more repugnant, but I don't think it's fair to make that claim. Should the entirety of Christianity, or of Religion as a whole, be tarred with the same brush? Of course not.

Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:31 am

Singh-Song;1446200 wrote: It's your God too, Christian Bishop. If He is so pathetic, and (at least according to your definition) a construct of human imagination, then why are you so fascinated with him? Why do you feel the need to preach the message of a God which is in His nature naught but your imaginary friend? Let Him go, my friend. You already recognise that he is a construct, born of need from your prior sense of spiritual unfulfilment. Let Him go, give up your spiritual splinter figure, and you will be whole once more...

On the actual topic though, yes, I agree that the deep-rooted paedophilia and perversion which is only now being exposed beyond doubt through actual investigations into the previously untouchable Vatican, and the hierarchy of the Catholic Church around the world, is disgusting, and should be abhorrent to anyone. Does this make Catholicism in itself a depraved and perverted faith? It certainly tips the scales towards being more repugnant, but I don't think it's fair to make that claim. Should the entirety of Christianity, or of Religion as a whole, be tarred with the same brush? Of course not.

If the head is rotten then the body cannot be healthy.

Have you looked lately and to answer your question or comment on my relenting, see below.

It is my view that all right wing literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are moral religionists, --- as well as those who do not believe. Literalists hurt their parent religions --- and everyone else, be he a believer or not. Literalists and the right wing of religions make us all into laughing stocks. Their God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution has got to go. So must beliefs in fantasy, miracles and magic. These are all evil.

Religulous [part 1] - YouTube

They also do much harm to their own.

African witches and Jesus

In The name Of Jesus: Child Witches (1 of 2) - YouTube

Jesus Camp 1of 3

LiveLeak.com - Jesus Camp - Part 1 (3)

Death to Gays.

Rachel Maddow interviews David Bahati - Part 1 - YouTube

For evil to grow my friends, all good people need do is nothing.

Fight them when you can. It is your duty to our fellow man.

Regards

DL