Ducking Diving.

[jones jones]

As a sports lover and a former footballer in my youth, I follow the BPL ... (for the uninitiated the British Premier League), which in my humble opinion is the crème de la crème of football leagues.

However one aspect of British and world football that irks me is the dive. This is plain and simple cheating and in my opinion players who "dive" should be treated far more harshly than they are today.

I will confine myself to English footballers, as I watch them playing far more than any other players around the world.

I may be wrong, but most English footballers seem to have their have their roots in the working class. In other words, and I know this is not like politically correct, they are probably from the "lower middle class" of English society.

This being so (or not), they were as kids often clipped around the ear hole by mom and dad if they stepped out of line. And as they grew up they learned that if they did not want to spend their entire childhood indoors, they would have to fight for their rights.

(Bear with me. This does have a direct bearing on football.)

And so they pretty soon became "streetwise" and learned that their "fists were mightier

than the pen."

And so they grew into manhood learning the "Liverpool Kiss" and how to kick the crap out of the supporters of rival teams. They spent many a night bleeding in the gutter or on the concrete floor of the local police station.

Those who had talent went on to play football in the Minor Leagues, the Conference, the National League and ultimately the Premier League.

Suddenly these same men who on a Friday and/or Saturday night were able to take a smack in the face with a half brick or bottle and be back at the pub Sunday morning as fit as a fiddle, now collapse and writhe in pain when an opposition football player scrapes his boot down their chin.

Now that's what annoys me because anyone with half a brain can see that that are not in the least bit injured, yet the referee who has been charged by the BPL to keep the game "clean", fall for these antics and blow their whistle for a foul.

Time for a "review system" in football.

[Bruv]

I could expand, but basically you are talking nonsense.

[jones jones]

Bruv;1443486 wrote: I could expand, but basically you are talking nonsense.


Pray do expand citizen Bruv so that I can humiliate you as I have so often done in the past ...

[Snowfire]

Stereotypical, much ?

Yeah we all ended a saturday night knowing what a brick in the face felt like.

Sorry. Not part of my initiation into manhood and I think a complete misunderstanding of football, footballers, the culture surrounding it and especially, the working class

[jones jones]

Snowfire;1443489 wrote: Stereotypical, much ?

Yeah we all ended a saturday night knowing what a brick in the face felt like.

Sorry. Not part of my initiation into manhood and I think a complete misunderstanding of football, footballers, the culture surrounding it and especially, the working class


Then give me a reason why these rough & tough guys suddenly become sissies on the football field.

[Bruv]

jones jones;1443488 wrote: Pray do expand citizen Bruv so that I can humiliate you as I have so often done in the past ...


First.....British Premier League, no such thing.

That will do for starters......we can go from there.

[jones jones]

Bruv;1443491 wrote: First.....British Premier League, no such thing.

That will do for starters......we can go from there.


Barclays Premier League then ... I didn't want to advertise. Is that your best shot DH!

[Bruv]

"English" players in the English Premier League.........

Less than a third are English

[jones jones]

Bruv;1443493 wrote: "English" players in the English Premier League.........

Less than a third are English


True ... but what a sad indictment of British/English football that is. You tried the same thing with your cricket and look where it got you ... Soon as a South African leaves the team its four zip against the Aussies and come three or four days after New Years day its gonna be five zip ... Talk about a whitewash!!! :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

[Snowfire]

I've grown up for 50 years watching predominantly English football. Its evolved to a very different game. Different pitches, different balls, different boots, which all mean more injuries.The considerable amount of money makes a considerable difference too I can remember when Chopper Harris tackled George Best about waist height and George didnt even go down. Different day, different times. Far much less of a contact sport than it ever was and much more technique based

With the money that is in the ENGLISH Premier League, it is a much more important, money orientated business. Far too much at stake

Do I think there is too much play acting ? Sure

Too much feigning injury ? Sure

Do I think it has anything to do with how "hard" you are or whether you've had a tough upbringing or not ? No

[Bruv]

English Premier League Top "Divers"



We imported "Diving"......it would appear.

[jones jones]

Snowfire;1443495 wrote: I've grown up for 50 years watching predominantly English football. Its evolved to a very different game. Different pitches, different balls, different boots, which all mean more injuries.The considerable amount of money makes a considerable difference too I can remember when Chopper Harris tackled George Best about waist height and George didnt even go down. Different day, different times. Far much less of a contact sport than it ever was and much more technique based

With the money that is in the ENGLISH Premier League, it is a much more important, money orientated business. Far too much at stake

Do I think there is too much play acting ? Sure

Too much feigning injury ? Sure

Do I think it has anything to do with how "hard" you are or whether you've had a tough upbringing or not ? No


Snow ... I agree with every word of your post ...

My point was NOT to equate "toughness" to upbringing but rather to draw a parallel between how much pain these footballers probably used to be able to endure OFF the field, compared to how little it takes ON the field to injure them.

[jones jones]

Bruv;1443497 wrote: English Premier League Top "Divers"



We imported "Diving"......it would appear.


Bruv ... Whether or not you imported diving is surely not the point. Diving is diving whether it is done by Africans, South Americans, British or European players. My point as I said in my reply to Snowfire, is NOT to point a finger at any specific footballing country but to simply show that the pain endured on the field of play that causes players to fall as if they'd been shot, is a lot less than what they have taken while growing up.

[Snowfire]

Far more more injuries occur on the football pitch now than ever. Boots in the 60's were pretty much like steel toe capped working boots that covered the ankle. Strong enough for you to lump a wet ball that weighed a good few pounds, 60-70 yards by toe punting. Now boots are very thin and light, barely covering the foot. The ball is very light pretty much all the time. Pitches are no longer like ploughed fields but are immaculately manicured to encourage players to keep the ball on the floor and not in the air, as in the old days.

All this makes it a completely different ball game. Metatarsal injuries were unheard of in my day. Nowadays players have to be careful not to get injured. They are worth more than thoroughbred racehorses.

Money unfortunately, dictates everything

[jones jones]

Snowfire;1443502 wrote: Far more more injuries occur on the football pitch now than ever. Boots in the 60's were pretty much like steel toe capped working boots that covered the ankle. Strong enough for you to lump a wet ball that weighed a good few pounds, 60-70 yards by toe punting. Now boots are very thin and light, barely covering the foot. The ball is very light pretty much all the time. Pitches are no longer like ploughed fields but are immaculately manicured to encourage players to keep the ball on the floor and not in the air, as in the old days.

All this makes it a completely different ball game. Metatarsal injuries were unheard of in my day. Nowadays players have to be careful not to get injured. They are worth more than thoroughbred racehorses.

Money unfortunately, dictates everything


Of course this is the case with "genuine" injuries which of course are still far too common and first prize would be to eliminate injuries as far as possible.

In my footballing days the magic bottle of water cured all ailments on the field ... but then we weren't worth as much as a racehorse's shoe!

[Snowfire]

The upside is we have eliminated 90 minutes of route one football played on a potato field - that was never a winning spectacle - and have some wonderfully entertaining, technically skillful football.

An overstretched point maybe but you get my drift

[Bruv]

I know next to nothing about the English Premier League, I was merely pointing out your opening post was very much a work of fiction or fantasy.

No such thing as a British football league, and the "English" working class culture you gave as a reason for the "diving" with reference to bricks in faces etc.ect.when the divers are predominantly imported players.

I wasn't discussing the state of the Premier League, my comment was entirely about the factual content of the opening post, nothing more.

[jones jones]

Bruv;1443507 wrote: I know next to nothing about the English Premier League, I was merely pointing out your opening post was very much a work of fiction or fantasy.

No such thing as a British football league, and the "English" working class culture you gave as a reason for the "diving" with reference to bricks in faces etc.ect.when the divers are predominantly imported players.

I wasn't discussing the state of the Premier League, my comment was entirely about the factual content of the opening post, nothing more.


Of course Bruv my dear ...

Do come home now ... all is forgiven!

[fuzzywuzzy]

I suppose this is why I find Soccer to be amusing rather than entertaining. Maybe getting hit with a bottle and playing dead as youngins, (so as to avoid another welt) trained them for the performances we know and love today.

[jones jones]

fuzzywuzzy;1443546 wrote: I suppose this is why I find Soccer to be amusing rather than entertaining. Maybe getting hit with a bottle and playing dead as youngins, (so as to avoid another welt) trained them for the performances we know and love today.


Hey ... Happy New Year Fuzz! Great fireworks show in Sydney!

[fuzzywuzzy]

jones jones;1443599 wrote: Hey ... Happy New Year Fuzz! Great fireworks show in Sydney!


Thanks mate you too.

[Bryn Mawr]

jones jones;1443510 wrote: Of course Bruv my dear ...

Do come home now ... all is forgiven!


Your first mistake was in assuming that most English players in the premier league grew up in working class families and came thereby to be streetwise.

Truth is that the majority of them we signed up by a club at twelve or thirteen and mentored by their club throughout their youth - many even living away from their families in club based fosterage.

Any of the academy players that showed a wild side and became streetwise would have been released long ago as unmanageable - indeed that would be taught the tactics of "playing the referee" from the beginning.

[jones jones]

Bryn Mawr;1444120 wrote: Your first mistake was in assuming that most English players in the premier league grew up in working class families and came thereby to be streetwise.

Truth is that the majority of them we signed up by a club at twelve or thirteen and mentored by their club throughout their youth - many even living away from their families in club based fosterage.

Any of the academy players that showed a wild side and became streetwise would have been released long ago as unmanageable - indeed that would be taught the tactics of "playing the referee" from the beginning.


No my Captain it was definitely not my first mistake ... The first mistake was citizen Bruv and then your good self becoming ever so slightly confused by my thread.

My thread was NOT about the working class per se but about diving .... I used the euphemism working class to show that most football players in England today, and I defy you to prove otherwise, can easily take a punch in the nose at the local on any Friday/Saturday might and come out fighting fit. Yet on Saturday afternoon these self same men fall about on a football field writhing in agony when they are touched anywhere near the penalty area. Citizen Joseph "Sepp" Blatter had they same to say recently.

And as for this dear Bryn ...

"Any of the academy players that showed a wild side and became streetwise would have been released long ago as unmanageable - indeed that would be taught the tactics of "playing the referee" from the beginning."

Are you certain we talking about the same sport?

Like if David Beckham or Wayne Rooney had showed a wild side they'd have been released??????????????

It is football we talking about not croquet?

[Bryn Mawr]

jones jones;1444137 wrote: No my Captain it was definitely not my first mistake ... The first mistake was citizen Bruv and then your good self becoming ever so slightly confused by my thread.

My thread was NOT about the working class per se but about diving .... I used the euphemism working class to show that most football players in England today, and I defy you to prove otherwise, can easily take a punch in the nose at the local on any Friday/Saturday might and come out fighting fit. Yet on Saturday afternoon these self same men fall about on a football field writhing in agony when they are touched anywhere near the penalty area. Citizen Joseph "Sepp" Blatter had they same to say recently.

And as for this dear Bryn ...

"Any of the academy players that showed a wild side and became streetwise would have been released long ago as unmanageable - indeed that would be taught the tactics of "playing the referee" from the beginning."

Are you certain we talking about the same sport?

Like if David Beckham or Wayne Rooney had showed a wild side they'd have been released??????????????

It is football we talking about not croquet?


That you choose Beckham and Rooney as examples of a wild side makes my point completely. Gone are the days of Vinny Jones, Billy Bremner, Chopper Harris, Norman Hunter, Nobby Stiles, etc - since the Academy system came in they would simply not have graduated because they would be seen as too much of a liability.

[jones jones]

Bryn Mawr;1444144 wrote: That you choose Beckham and Rooney as examples of a wild side makes my point completely. Gone are the days of Vinny Jones, Billy Bremner, Chopper Harris, Norman Hunter, Nobby Stiles, etc - since the Academy system came in they would simply not have graduated because they would be seen as too much of a liability.


So as I think citizen Bruv said, two thirds of the English Premiership is now made up of non-English footballers. This in itself is an utter disgrace as the England team is surely chosen from players who mostly play for Premiership teams. Doesn't leave much to choose from which is most likely why they have had such "bad luck" at the Football World Cup since 1966.

To get back to my point ... if only one third of the Premiership is made up of English players and these players are NOT from the "working class," are they then the product of Charterhouse, Eton, Harrow, Rugby, Shrewsbury, Westminster and Winchester College and Schools?

[Bryn Mawr]

jones jones;1444146 wrote: So as I think citizen Bruv said, two thirds of the English Premiership is now made up of non-English footballers. This in itself is an utter disgrace as the England team is surely chosen from players who mostly play for Premiership teams. Doesn't leave much to choose from which is most likely why they have had such "bad luck" at the Football World Cup since 1966.

To get back to my point ... if only one third of the Premiership is made up of English players and these players are NOT from the "working class," are they then the product of Charterhouse, Eton, Harrow, Rugby, Shrewsbury, Westminster and Winchester College and Schools?


Who suggested that they were not of the working class?

My point was aimed at your stereotyping of those lads lives' as they grew up :-



This being so (or not), they were as kids often clipped around the ear hole by mom and dad if they stepped out of line. And as they grew up they learned that if they did not want to spend their entire childhood indoors, they would have to fight for their rights.

(Bear with me. This does have a direct bearing on football.)

And so they pretty soon became "streetwise" and learned that their "fists were mightier

than the pen."

And so they grew into manhood learning the "Liverpool Kiss" and how to kick the crap out of the supporters of rival teams. They spent many a night bleeding in the gutter or on the concrete floor of the local police station.




If they spent "many a night bleeding in the gutter" etc they would NOT have graduated from the Academy system as a professional footballer.

[jones jones]

Bryn Mawr;1444148 wrote: Who suggested that they were not of the working class?

My point was aimed at your stereotyping of those lads lives' as they grew up :-

If they spent "many a night bleeding in the gutter" etc they would NOT have graduated from the Academy system as a professional footballer.


I blame myself for not being clear enough in my first post of this thread. I can find no fault with your argument and I have always been the first to concede that a point has been well made as long as it is done in a civilised debate as we are now conducting. So I have no rebuttal at this point.

However ... before I raise the white flag let me ask this about "diving" which is after all and actually what this thread is about ...

Are you prepared to concede this: the score is one all in the last minute of a game that will decide who wins the Premiership. Irrespective of whether a young footballer is the product of a Man U, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea or an other Academy or if he learned the game playing in the streets of the East End of London, he would 99% of the time take a "dive" in the penalty area if the opportunity arose?

Yes or no? No ifs and buts ...

[jones jones]

I have to go an eat a rather later supper ... back like Arnie "I will be back!"

Maybe only tomorrow but I will be!

[Bryn Mawr]

jones jones;1444152 wrote: I blame myself for not being clear enough in my first post of this thread. I can find no fault with your argument and I have always been the first to concede that a point has been well made as long as it is done in a civilised debate as we are now conducting. So I have no rebuttal at this point.

However ... before I raise the white flag let me ask this about "diving" which is after all and actually what this thread is about ...

Are you prepared to concede this: the score is one all in the last minute of a game that will decide who wins the Premiership. Irrespective of whether a young footballer is the product of a Man U, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea or an other Academy or if he learned the game playing in the streets of the East End of London, he would 99% of the time take a "dive" in the penalty area if the opportunity arose?

Yes or no? No ifs and buts ...


A lot of the current crop of players would take a dive - as I said in my first post, I believe that they would have been taught the tactic of "playing the referee" at the academy.

[Bruv]

jones jones;1444152 wrote:

Are you prepared to concede this: the score is one all in the last minute of a game that will decide who wins the Premiership.
The Premiership is dependent on an accumulation of game results over the season, most times the result is not dependent on a single last game......

Irrespective of whether a young footballer is the product of a Man U, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea or an other Academy or if he learned the game playing in the streets of the East End of London, he would 99% of the time take a "dive" in the penalty area if the opportunity arose?As the players in the top teams are made up of international players attracted to this country by the wages and kudos the league gives their short careers........the likelihood is the player diving will be a foreigner Yes or no? No ifs and buts ...


Many of today's players will dive, many will not......no guarantees can be made were people are concerned.

If only life was black and white......suspect you could get a black and white photography thread out of it.....it does take all kinds, don't you know ?

[jones jones]

Bryn Mawr;1444157 wrote: A lot of the current crop of players would take a dive - as I said in my first post, I believe that they would have been taught the tactic of "playing the referee" at the academy.


So in other words it is the academy that teaches these players to cheat?

So in other words a player will dive whether he has been in an academy since the age of twelve or not.

IMO "diving" is cheating and is akin to a cricketer not walking when he knows without doubt that he edged the ball to the slip fielder and is not given out by the umpire.

How many cricketers on 99 or 199 would walk? Very few. How many cricketers playing under the Duckworth Lewis system with one ball to go and knowing that if they lose their wicket the World Cup final will be lost would walk/ None.

Diving is cheating and the play acting that goes with it is obvious. Once the free kick/penalty is awarded in their favour they make a miraculous recovery and their faked injury is forgotten.

[Bryn Mawr]

jones jones;1444206 wrote: So in other words it is the academy that teaches these players to cheat?

So in other words a player will dive whether he has been in an academy since the age of twelve or not.

IMO "diving" is cheating and is akin to a cricketer not walking when he knows without doubt that he edged the ball to the slip fielder and is not given out by the umpire.

How many cricketers on 99 or 199 would walk? Very few. How many cricketers playing under the Duckworth Lewis system with one ball to go and knowing that if they lose their wicket the World Cup final will be lost would walk/ None.

Diving is cheating and the play acting that goes with it is obvious. Once the free kick/penalty is awarded in their favour they make a miraculous recovery and their faked injury is forgotten.


How does the second line come from the first or from anything I've said?

IMHO the Academy teach the players the rules and just how far they believe those rules can be pushed - and where and when they can be pushed that little bit further.

Of course diving is cheating, of course standing your ground knowing you've edged the ball is against the spirit of the rules (but not cheating and any batsman who walked in the circumstances you describe would find himself out of a job soon after) but the players are paid to do everything in their power to win and that includes playing the referee if they think they can get away with it.

[jones jones]

Bryn Mawr;1444214 wrote: How does the second line come from the first or from anything I've said?

IMHO the Academy teach the players the rules and just how far they believe those rules can be pushed - and where and when they can be pushed that little bit further.

Of course diving is cheating, of course standing your ground knowing you've edged the ball is against the spirit of the rules (but not cheating and any batsman who walked in the circumstances you describe would find himself out of a job soon after) but the players are paid to do everything in their power to win and that includes playing the referee if they think they can get away with it.


"Playing the ref" is simply a euphemism for cheating. In other words what you're saying is that young footballers are taught to cheat in the BPL.

[Bruv]

BPL?

That's where I came in......... talk about flogging a dead horse.

[jones jones]

Bruv;1444220 wrote: BPL?

That's where I came in......... talk about flogging a dead horse.


Wow, a thought just crossed your mind ... Must have been a long and lonely journey!

Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time.

[LarsMac]

Perhaps it's time to think about Replay/review like the American football League.

When a player goes down, review the tapes. If it was a dive, the other team gets the ball.

[jones jones]

LarsMac;1444245 wrote: Perhaps it's time to think about Replay/review like the American football League.

When a player goes down, review the tapes. If it was a dive, the other team gets the ball.


Now that's an awesome idea Lars ... Only I think that the diver should then spend maybe ten minutes in the sin bin like we have in rugby union.

[Bruv]

jones jones;1444236 wrote: Wow, a thought just crossed your mind ... Must have been a long and lonely journey!

Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time.
You really make me laugh.......... please stop it.

[LarsMac]

jones jones;1444247 wrote: Now that's an awesome idea Lars ... Only I think that the diver should then spend maybe ten minutes in the sin bin like we have in rugby union.


I have recently seen a few guys in the NBA take a dive and play review has shown them for what they were. Though, so far, the NBA has not made any determination on how it should be handled. If it becomes a problem, though, I am sure they will put a stop to it. A couple of free throws from a dive can mean the game when it's close.

[jones jones]

Bruv;1444257 wrote: You really make me laugh.......... please stop it.




This is no battle of wits between you and me because I never pick on an unarmed man.

Now FGS go away!!! Or better still put me back on ignore!

[Bruv]

jones jones;1444267 wrote: This is no battle of wits between you and me because I never pick on an unarmed man.

Now FGS go away!!! Or better still put me back on ignore!


I have never availed myself of the ignore option........where would this thread have gone without my input?