U.s.r.i.p.

Arena · Post by **Arena** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:52 am

Is the USA a spent force as financial leaders?

How long before the Chinese and Indians are economically stronger?

Post by **jones jones** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:30 am

In your dreams captain!

Arena · Post by **Arena** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:51 am

I can assure you of two things

I am not a Captain

It is not in my dreams.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:20 am

Arena;1439824 wrote: Is the USA a spent force as financial leaders?

How long before the Chinese and Indians are economically stronger?Perhaps you'd like to share with us information you've seen that leads you to that conclusion?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:22 am

jones jones;1439830 wrote: In your dreams captain!Perhaps you'd like to share with us the information that makes you so sure Arena's incorrect?

Post by **LarsMac** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:25 am

You're repeating yourself.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:35 am

I wanted to make sure there was no ambiguity or confusion in what I posted and to whom.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:21 am

Arena;1439824 wrote: Is the USA a spent force as financial leaders?

How long before the Chinese and Indians are economically stronger?

I want to know why that frightens people.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:03 pm

Arena;1439824 wrote: Is the USA a spent force as financial leaders?

How long before the Chinese and Indians are economically stronger?

The fix is in, seems my country can't get it's act together.

Bad enough under the George Bush administration for various reasons the housing market ballooned out of any sense of reason, economy crashes.

Enter Barak Obama.

Ideologically driven, that guy, Obama, ignores the basic concepts of a market driven economy. It is no surprise considering his past experience didn't include work, but was a community activist.

Trillions of dollars later, he just doesn't get it, or care. His goal is not to strengthen our country, but to impose an unsustainable utopia of his dreams.

Yup, we are on the downhill side.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:12 pm

tude dog;1439865 wrote: The fix is in, seems my country can't get it's act together.

Bad enough under the George Bush administration for various reasons the housing market ballooned out of any sense of reason, economy crashes.

Enter Barak Obama.

Ideologically driven, that guy, Obama, ignores the basic concepts of a market driven economy. It is no surprise considering his past experience didn't include work, but was a community activist.

Trillions of dollars later, he just doesn't get it, or care. His goal is not to strengthen our country, but to impose an unsustainable utopia of his dreams.

Yup, we are on the downhill side.Purely strawman argument especially the highlighted part.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:14 pm

tude dog;1439865 wrote: The fix is in, seems my country can't get it's act together.

Bad enough under the George Bush administration for various reasons the housing market ballooned out of any sense of reason, economy crashes.

Enter Barak Obama.

Ideologically driven, that guy, Obama, ignores the basic concepts of a market driven economy. It is no surprise considering his past experience didn't include work, but was a community activist.

Trillions of dollars later, he just doesn't get it, or care. His goal is not to strengthen our country, but to impose an unsustainable utopia of his dreams.

Yup, we are on the downhill side.To prove my point. Lets go piece by piece.

You said "Obama, ignores the basic concepts of a market driven economy."

Okay, exactly which basic concepts has Obama ignored? Specific examples please, along with what you think should have been done.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:34 pm

He can't. Just hates the guy whatever he does.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:45 pm

AnneBoleyn;1439870 wrote: He can't. Just hates the guy whatever he does.I guess he assumes Obama must have lived on MLK Blvd at some point of his life.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:51 pm

Ahso!;1439874 wrote: I guess he assumes Obama must have lived on MLK Blvd at some point of his life.

Well then he'd be wrong, wouldn't he? I assume like most people he knows Obama led a middle-class life in Hawaii & elsewhere.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:53 pm

Ahso! you're awfully good at contests, why don't you think of another one we could all play & enjoy instead of going on one of your silliness rampages?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:56 pm

AnneBoleyn;1439878 wrote: Ahso! you're awfully good at contests, why don't you think of another one we could all play & enjoy instead of going on one of your silliness rampages?Why, so you can then lecture people on what music they should like?

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:03 pm

Ahso!;1439880 wrote: Why, so you can then lecture people on what music they should like?

Okay, I love Led Zep a bit too much! I hang my head in shame!

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:09 pm

Now that you've given TD plenty of cover, he's got excuses to not engage. Why do you constantly do stuff like that, Anne? Control issues?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:22 pm

tude dog;1439865 wrote: The fix is in, seems my country can't get it's act together.

Bad enough under the George Bush administration for various reasons the housing market ballooned out of any sense of reason, economy crashes.

Enter Barak Obama.

Ideologically driven, that guy, Obama, ignores the basic concepts of a market driven economy. It is no surprise considering his past experience didn't include work, but was a community activist.

Trillions of dollars later, he just doesn't get it, or care. His goal is not to strengthen our country, but to impose an unsustainable utopia of his dreams.

Yup, we are on the downhill side.

Maybe you should go back to basics yourself there are someone things that are too important to be left to the market economy. In particular, education, health and infrastructure. You really should not believe the crap put about by the right wing in america. You need a ell educated healthy workforce for industry to be successful, you also need well paid workers that can buy the stuff that is manufactured. Your big companies shifted everything abroad so they could make and import it cheaply but they forget they need people who can afford to buy the stuff. Your healthcare system is a private cartel that has been able to do as it wishes.

You need regulation to prevent the growth of monopolies and cartels nd to stop companies abusing theior power - Monopolies and cartels are anti-capitalist and destroy the economies in which they are based - yet in america you have politicians that actively protect them. That's one of the reasons why you're up **** creek. Sadly we are as well ironic since it was us that gave the world capitalism and socialism - the two work best together but you can;t even have a rational debate about it (not you personally I am speaking generally about anericans who seem to choke on the word socialist even although they don't understand what it is) Adam Smith inspired socialists as well as capitalist did you know that?

Post by **jones jones** » Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:44 am

Arena;1439836 wrote: I can assure you of two things

I am not a Captain

It is not in my dreams.

If and when you get to understand The Chosen One, you will realize that I use these odd salutations as a sort of "term of endearment."

However if it’s your choice then ... (Jj rips off Captain Arena’s epaulettes and demotes the member the rank of sergeant!)

Well sarge ...

Appearances can often be deceiving. I’m not an economist but I am intelligent and I can read, write and think. The economic downturn and political upheaval around the globe has seemingly made China appear to be a stable market. However in my opinion, even though at the moment economic growth there is high, it will not continue much longer.

In reality the Chinese economy is now far more in debt than most other immerging market economies. Much of this debt has been made by state owned companies and local governments. But bad debts made by these borrowers are not recognized on the balance sheets of Chinese banks as they are ordered by the state to roll these loans over.

These "hidden" bad debts are conservatively estimated to be about 15% of GDP which technically means that the Chinese banking system is probably insolvent.

So these firms who are only kept solvent by bank loans will have to be shut down sooner or later. China looks good right now but in the next two or three years their deficiencies will be exposed and growth will be very much slower. When ever risks are taken, a payback day has to eventually dawn.

The People's Republic of China’s bubble will burst sooner rather than later.

As for India (love the name and I have used it in my latest novel as the name for one of the women characters), a la Nero, they fiddle while their country burns. They look to space, Mars at the moment, for whatever reason while they have a gazillion gazillion people who live in total squalor. India launched its first Mars-bound spacecraft at the cost of 45 million GBP while the UK taxpayers shipped out 280 million GBP to them in "aid" last year.

The average wage in India varies from 118 rupees ($2.18) to 185 rupees ($3.40) per day. That is unless you an "Untouchable", (Dalit) then the caste system comes into play and you lucky if you earn even half as much as this.

Yeah right ...China and India are gonna like out do the USA soon.

Maybe, but I'd rather spend the rest of my days in the good old US of A rather than in either China or India if I had the chance.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:30 am

Excellent post Jones

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:13 am

China has a very bad track record for shipping out poisonous goods. Children's toys and dog treats come to mind just off the top of my head. That certainly doesn't inspire buyer confidence. If their trade suffers, their economy suffers.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:14 am

Thanks for the thought and effort you put into this post, JJ. You make a compelling case if your facts support your assertions. Do they? I haven't checked any of them yet.jones jones;1439957 wrote:

Appearances can often be deceiving. Iï¿½m not an economist but I am intelligent and I can read, write and think. The economic downturn and political upheaval around the globe has seemingly made China appear to be a stable market. However in my opinion, even though at the moment economic growth there is high, it will not continue much longer.

In reality the Chinese economy is now far more in debt than most other immerging market economies. Much of this debt has been made by state owned companies and local governments. But bad debts made by these borrowers are not recognized on the balance sheets of Chinese banks as they are ordered by the state to roll these loans over.

These "hidden" bad debts are conservatively estimated to be about 15% of GDP which technically means that the Chinese banking system is probably insolvent.Wikipedia says China's Government dept to its GDP as of 2012 is 21.3% - if we add your 15% to that we have a total of of just under 37%. The U.S. is at just over 107%.

List of countries by public debt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The question boils down to be whether or not this much debt can be toxic to a nation's economy.

jones jones;1439957 wrote: So these firms who are only kept solvent by bank loans will have to be shut down sooner or later. China looks good right now but in the next two or three years their deficiencies will be exposed and growth will be very much slower. When ever risks are taken, a payback day has to eventually dawn.

The People's Republic of Chinaï¿½s bubble will burst sooner rather than later.That's a bit of a bold statement, putting a time line on China's bubble bursting. But you might in fact be correct for all we know at this point. There's no question from what I can see in preliminary accounts such as this one... Cinda is one of four asset management companies that Beijing established in 1999 to absorb toxic assets held by the China's four biggest banks. It is the most profitable and the first of the four to seek a public listing, with company disclosures showing large and steady growth of its operations. Cinda IPO to test investor appetite for China's bad debt | Reuters

...Investors don't appear too worried about China's ability ,or, willingness to repay its debt - to itself.

jones jones;1439957 wrote: As for India (love the name and I have used it in my latest novel as the name for one of the women characters), a la Nero, they fiddle while their country burns. They look to space, Mars at the moment, for whatever reason while they have a gazillion gazillion people who live in total squalor. India launched its first Mars-bound spacecraft at the cost of 45 million GBP while the UK taxpayers shipped out 280 million GBP to them in "aid" last year.

The average wage in India varies from 118 rupees ($2.18) to 185 rupees ($3.40) per day. That is unless you an "Untouchable", (Dalit) then the caste system comes into play and you lucky if you earn even half as much as this..These sorts of figures always appear scary to westerners, but I think it worth pointing out that personal income is geographically relative. $3.40 per day seems outrageous if one is attempting to live on that in the US or UK. But India? I don't know.

jones jones;1439957 wrote: Yeah right ...China and India are gonna like out do the USA soon.

Maybe, but I'd rather spend the rest of my days in the good old US of A rather than in either China or India if I had the chance.I'm certain I would as well, but then again, that's where I was raised and the culture I'm most comfortable in.

Perhaps Arena will offer to avail us of his case for his statement.

Post by **jones jones** » Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:19 am

oscar;1439961 wrote: Excellent post Jones

Why thank you Oscar! I do try my best dear ...

Post by **jones jones** » Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:25 am

Ahso!;1440015 wrote: Thanks for the thought and effort you put into this post, JJ. You make a compelling case if your facts support your assertions. Do they? I haven't checked any of them yet.Wikipedia says China's Government dept to its GDP as of 2012 is 21.3% - if we add your 15% to that we have a total of of just under 37%. The U.S. is at just over 107%.

List of countries by public debt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The question boils down to be whether or not this much debt can be toxic to a nation's economy.

That's a bit of a bold statement, putting a time line on China's bubble bursting. But you might in fact be correct for all we know at this point. There's no question from what I can see in preliminary accounts such as this one... Cinda IPO to test investor appetite for China's bad debt | Reuters

...Investors don't appear too worried about China's ability ,or, willingness to repay its debt - to itself.

These sorts of figures always appear scary to westerners, but I think it worth pointing out that personal income is geographically relative. $3.40 per day seems outrageous if one is attempting to live on that in the US or UK. But India? I don't know.

I'm certain I would as well, but then again, that's where I was raised and the culture I'm most comfortable in.

Perhaps Arena will offer to avail us of his case for his statement.

Like me you are obviously a thinking earthling Ahso ...

Who knows what the future holds? Maybe China or India or North Korea or Viet Nam or Iran or even Kazakhstan could in the future spring a surprise and become the next Super Power. Me Jj I doubt it ...

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:51 am

What're your thoughts on the GDP difference issue between the US and China?

Post by **jones jones** » Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:01 am

Ahso!;1440028 wrote: What're your thoughts on the GDP difference issue between the US and China?

Anyway before we get to GDP we have to take cognisance of the fact that the USA has an elected government which is totally legitimate with a separation of legislative, judicial, and executive powers.

The peoples Republic of China is ruled by the Chinese Communist Party. There is no separation of powers. No checks and balances. No independent press. So any figures coming out are naturally suspect.

China’s gross domestic product (GDP) was estimated by the IMF at approximately $8.25 trillion in 2012, which is just over 50% of US GDP of approximately $16 trillion for the same year.

While that is a significant gap that may take China many years to close, using another measure known as Purchasing Power Parity (PPP), China is allegedly forecast to race past the U.S. in just a few more years.

Personally I don't think there's much chance of that happening.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:14 am

Did you know that the principle owner of the Banks in China, as well as many of the business ventures, is the PRA? (Peoples' Republic Army)

Post by **jones jones** » Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:22 am

LarsMac;1440035 wrote: Did you know that the principle owner of the Banks in China, as well as many of the business ventures, is the PRA? (Peoples' Republic Army)

No I wasn't aware of this ... But was is the PRA? The Communist Party.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:54 am

jones jones;1440038 wrote: No I wasn't aware of this ... But was is the PRA? The Communist Party.

Sorry, it is actually, more correct to say PLA, Peoples Liberation Army.

The Army is the principle investor and owner of most of the domestic commercial interests in China.

edit: In theory, since the 90s the ventures have been "privatized" but the management is still the same. Predominantly current and former military leaders.

Post by **jones jones** » Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:58 am

LarsMac;1440040 wrote: Sorry, it is actually, more correct to say PLA, Peoples Liberation Army.

The Army is the principle investor and owner of most of the domestic commercial interests in China.

Even so I guess its rather difficult to differentiate between the various parts of the Communist Party as such. Armed forces, banking sector... you name it ...

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:06 am

Posted by larsmac

Sorry, it is actually, more correct to say PLA, Peoples Liberation Army.

The Army is the principle investor and owner of most of the domestic commercial interests in China.

edit: In theory, since the 90s the ventures have been "privatized" but the management is still the same. Predominantly current and former military leaders.

What? You mean the Chinese have a military industrial-complex? Did they pinch that idea from america do you think?:sneaky: Actually it's not as powerful as the american one since the % of GDP spend on the military is far less in china than it is ion america.

Post by **LarsMac** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:25 am

gmc;1440095 wrote: Posted by larsmac

What? You mean the Chinese have a military industrial-complex? Did they pinch that idea from america do you think?:sneaky: Actually it's not as powerful as the american one since the % of GDP spend on the military is far less in china than it is ion america.

Actually, China does not so much have a military-industrial complex as China IS an military-industrial complex.

Getting an accurate accounting of such as military spending as a % of GDP from China is hardly possible, for the very reason it is so.

China's two and a half million man military owns those numbers, and does not offer them for such an accounting.

They have learned well since the Cultural Revolution.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:59 pm

gmc;1439888 wrote: Maybe you should go back to basics yourself there are someone things that are too important to be left to the market economy. In particular, education,

Pretty much since the founding of this country citizens have established government schools, governed at a local level. Best thing to do in this country is abolish the United States Department of Education We managed 203 years without one and I have yet to see any need for it now.

To abolish it would be an immediate savings of over 77 BILLION dollars a year. Further benefit would be savings to future students with reduce cost for education.

health Don't know what that means. Taxing soda pop and ice cream for the benefit of the masses?

and infrastructure

Again, what do you mean? Roads where necessary, I'm down with that.

[QUOTE=gmc;1439888]You really should not believe the crap put about by the right wing in america.

Hate to clue you in on this, but I am a part of the vast right wing conspiracy. I have traditional values. Ya know like G-d/County. Strong families. Work, produce. Honesty, honor. Heck I was a Boy Scout for crying out loud.

gmc;1439888 wrote: You need a ell educated healthy workforce for industry to be successful, you also need well paid workers that can buy the stuff that is manufactured.

I agree.

gmc;1439888 wrote: Your big companies shifted everything abroad so they could make and import it cheaply but they forget they need people who can afford to buy the stuff.

I don't buy your general comment at all.

gmc;1439888 wrote: Your healthcare system is a private cartel that has been able to do as it wishes.

I must to admit, the health care system in this country needed change.

gmc;1439888 wrote: You need regulation to prevent the growth of monopolies and cartels nd to stop companies abusing theior power - Monopolies and cartels are anti-capitalist and destroy the economies in which they are based - yet in america you have politicians that actively protect them. That's one of the reasons why you're up **** creek. Sadly we are as well ironic since it was us that gave the world capitalism and socialism - the two work best together but you can;t even have a rational debate about it (not you personally I am speaking generally about anericans who seem to choke on the word socialist even although they don't understand what it is) Adam Smith inspired socialists as well as capitalist did you know that?

If you say so.:-3

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:08 pm

posted by tude dog.

Pretty much since the founding of this country citizens have established government schools, governed at a local level. Best thing to do in this country is abolish the United States Department of Education We managed 203 years without one and I have yet to see any need for it now.

To abolish it would be an immediate savings of over 77 BILLION dollars a year. Further benefit would be savings to future students with reduce cost for education.

It was a generic comment - private education, faith schools etc etc is a political issue in the UK. In truth I don't actually know enough about the US system to comment on it. I suspect american pie, porky's and glee might not be a true reflection of things.

Don't know what that means. Taxing soda pop and ice cream for the benefit of the masses?

Nope access to medical care whenever you need it. American posters seem to be endlessly obsessing about the cost of medical care. We all pay national insurance depending on earnings to finance ours it's there for me should I ever need it. Comparing the US and UK systems is a bit pointless let's just say the tories attempt to privatise the NHS are not going down well.

Again, what do you mean? Roads where necessary, I'm down with that.

Yep things like that, toll roads curb trade and left to private industry our electricity, gas and telecommunications infrastructure would never have reached a lot of isolated communities. Don't know what they did in the states to solve that particular problem.

I don't buy your general comment at all.

Fair enough. We don't have to hold the same viewpoints. Our heavy industry has disappeared as well. Over here we blame the unions or thatcher and the tories depending on one's political viewpoint and spit abuse rather than debate such are the passions stirred up.

Hate to clue you in on this, but I am a part of the vast right wing conspiracy. I have traditional values. Ya know like G-d/County. Strong families. Work, produce. Honesty, honor. Heck I was a Boy Scout for crying out loud.

Left wing, atheist, no time for blind patriotism, cured workaholic, sod the protestant work ethic, honest and don't need some prat to tell me what honour is, have my own standards to live up to.

If you say so.

I do say so. At this point, were we sitting face to face, I would buy you a pint (proper beer none of that miller's crap) and sit down for a good discussion:D

OK you can have a jack daniels if you prefer.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:25 pm

Well............I would pay to listen in to the Tude and gmc discussion, might even buy em a beer.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:37 pm

gmc;1440119 wrote: posted by tude dog.

I do say so. At this point, were we sitting face to face, I would buy you a pint (proper beer none of that miller's crap) and sit down for a good discussion:D

OK you can have a jack daniels if you prefer.

You're buying? I'm drink'n.

Short of change? I got credit.

Jack Daniel's? How's ya know?:-6

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:31 am

Posted by bruv

Well............I would pay to listen in to the Tude and gmc discussion, might even buy em a beer.

Or two. Don't know about tude dog but I'm sure I get more intelligent with a few beers in me.

Jack Daniel's? How's ya know?

Well you're american aren't you? With some whiskies when drunk the name needs to be something you can pronounce when totally pissed. something like Laphroaig is hard enough to pronounce when you are sober