Tinkering with Windows 8.1

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Týr
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Tinkering with Windows 8.1

Post by Týr »

I have a problem I'm mulling over. To an extent it's of my own making, I recognize that from the outset.

Back in 1982 my brother Ted and I each bought a BBC B with an Epson MX 100 printer. The following month my parents kitted themselves out as well so they could deal with two specific issues - correspondence and family history data. A couple of years later I bought an IBM PC clone, the 4.77MHz 640KB 8086 kind. By the late eighties the volume of data my parents were handling was outstripping their BBC B capacity and they made the major leap to MSDOS on a similar PC. I transferred their data into WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS and a data manager called Smartware II and my father, by then in his sixties, learned to lay out text and sort and filter his records very effectively. He used XTGOLD as his file manager and menu system, a slightly prettier equivalent to Norton Commander.

So, skip forward a quarter of a century. Ted and I have occasionally moved his system onto more recent PC hardware but, while he eventually allowed Windows onto his machine as an addition to DOS in order to run a browser and an email package over dial-up and eventually cable, he has never transitioned out of WordPerfect and Smartware for his core tasks. Ted and I kept both packages running with new generations of printers on Windows 95, 98, 2000 and XP using the command line window. We've occasionally exported his text and data into Microsoft Office to demonstrate it but he put his foot down decades ago against changing his workflow.

Today I've ordered replacement hardware for his 6 year old Dell. XP is about to lose its security update path so it's no longer a choice. I've bought a Windows 8.1 licence with the new PC.

This new computer is obviously going to boot into Windows 8.1. I'm reasonably sure I can run VirtualBox on startup to give a full-screen MSDOS and the latest Norton Commander lookalike before the boot finishes. I reckon I can get WordPerfect and Smartware to then talk to his printer. A single key-press should toggle the screen out to his current browser/email package and back in again to his full-screen DOS environment.

The problem is the Windows screen, while he's in his browser. He'll have a mouse and I know he's going to end up inadvertently making these new-fangled gestures, flipping screens without meaning to. He'll flip the machine into pages from which he stands no chance of retracing his steps short of powering down. I've only spent a couple of hours using Windows 8 and that's exactly what happened to me, I was aghast at what Microsoft have done with their operating system.

Has anyone any hints or pointers on transforming the behaviour and appearance of a Windows 8.1 application to the behaviour and appearance of the same application under Windows 2000, which is the most recent visual environment my father's ever been exposed to? (XP called it "classic desktop"). My googling so far has reached Classic Shell - Start menu and other Windows enhancements but I have my doubts.

At least writing this out has focused my mind on what I'm trying to achieve.
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LarsMac
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Tinkering with Windows 8.1

Post by LarsMac »

You may want to explore dual boot. perhaps keep the XP machine, but limit its internet access.

I have one XP machine that use for local only tasks. It has no connection to the outside world.
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Týr
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Tinkering with Windows 8.1

Post by Týr »

LarsMac;1439411 wrote: You may want to explore dual boot. perhaps keep the XP machine, but limit its internet access.

I have one XP machine that use for local only tasks. It has no connection to the outside world.


He switches back and forth on a regular basis. If I were to stick with XP on a non-Internet connection I think I'd have to deploy two computers and all the fiddle of autoswitching the monitor, keyboard and mouse between two boxes. Dual booting would involve him in closing down all his current applications, two-minute pause, open what he wants and then the same process in getting back to where he was.

Even if I go that route he's still going to have Windows 8.1 on his Internet-connected computer, and all my puzzles, about reverting its behaviour to Windows 2000 "classic desktop" with no gestures, remain to be solved. The DOS side of things I think I have nailed down, using VirtualBox - I'm quite used to using it on my own computer to put multiple operating systems up concurrently on the same computer.

How have you coped with Windows 8 screen-switching every time your mouse strays into a gesture-sensitive part of the screen?
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Tinkering with Windows 8.1

Post by Ahso! »

Your dad sounds like a pretty smart chap.

Sorry I can't help with your dilemma.
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Tinkering with Windows 8.1

Post by LarsMac »

I've only played around with Windoze 8 a very little.

I just updated my wife's laptop from 8 to 8.1

I've also noted far fewer security threats against my XP machine in the last year.
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Tinkering with Windows 8.1

Post by Bryn Mawr »

Can't you downgrade the Windows 8 to Windows 7 and get rid of the worst of the behaviour?
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Tinkering with Windows 8.1

Post by Týr »

Bryn Mawr;1439438 wrote: Can't you downgrade the Windows 8 to Windows 7 and get rid of the worst of the behaviour?


Would it? I've no reason to believe I can convert Windows 7 to a classical desktop. Have you?
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Tinkering with Windows 8.1

Post by Bryn Mawr »

Týr;1439448 wrote: Would it? I've no reason to believe I can convert Windows 7 to a classical desktop. Have you?


You can certainly downgrade 8 to 7 and the version of 7 pro that I'm currently running on my laptop appears to be well behaved with a fairly standard desktop.
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Tinkering with Windows 8.1

Post by YZGI »

I would get Ted to help.
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Tinkering with Windows 8.1

Post by Týr »

YZGI;1439480 wrote: I would get Ted to help.I'm not sure he's seen Windows 8 at all and I'm of the opinion the problem is mainly a matter of getting round the Windows 8 aspects. Which is why I've raised the thread, looking for suggestions.
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Tinkering with Windows 8.1

Post by Chloe_88 »

I got a laptop with windows 8 a few months ago.. Took me hours to find stuff, and the constant flipping and "apps" drove me mad.

I installed classic shell, so it looks a bit more like XP classic. Some stuff still flips open in the "apps", like pictures, but that was changed by selecting a different programs to start it with. So the classic shell does make it easier..

Windows 8 still annoys me though..
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Tinkering with Windows 8.1

Post by Betty Boop »

I'm wondering what all the fuss is, I have windows 8 and not struggled at all found my way round no problem :-3
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Tinkering with Windows 8.1

Post by Ahso! »

Betty Boop;1439591 wrote: I'm wondering what all the fuss is, I have windows 8 and not struggled at all found my way round no problem :-3Yeah, but you're a Nerd. Aren't you?
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Tinkering with Windows 8.1

Post by Betty Boop »

Ahso!;1439593 wrote: Yeah, but you're a Nerd. Aren't you?


I'm used to more traditionally being accused of being a geek, what's the definition of nerd you're using :wah:
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Tinkering with Windows 8.1

Post by Ahso! »

Betty Boop;1439596 wrote: I'm used to more traditionally being accused of being a geek, what's the definition of nerd you're using :wah:A Geek! ;)
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Tinkering with Windows 8.1

Post by Týr »

Betty Boop;1439591 wrote: I'm wondering what all the fuss is, I have windows 8 and not struggled at all found my way round no problem :-3


Being as you're in the first flush of youth and unburdened with ossified ways, that's no surprise at all.
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Tinkering with Windows 8.1

Post by LarsMac »

We upgraded to 8.1 on my wife's laptop. She now has the "traditional desktop" and is happy with that. Though she doesn't like the new MS Office (Office 365), and wants her Office 2003 back from her old laptop.

That was a Dell OEM version, and I am not sure I can transfer it from a Dell, with XP to a Toshiba Laptop with 8.1

Guess I will find out this weekend.
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Tinkering with Windows 8.1

Post by Týr »

I submit my progress report to the thread...

The hardware arrived. Then some of my various offspring brought the data down from Leicester on their travels. I have combined the two.

Windows 8.1 plus ClassicShell has given me a desktop with no gestures, no charms, boot straight to the desktop and an appearance close enough to Classic (Windows 2000) for me to forget which version I'm actually on. The Start button now pops up the programs and settings menus as it ought to. I can find no trace of either Apps or Metro on the machine - I've no idea how to get Metro or any of the Apps to appear now, not even if I wanted to.

The main difference is that the old quicklaunch bar has melded into the running tasks icons and pin/unpin decides what's visible. That's not too hard to live with. There's no Command window either, there's a Powershell instead which is not the same at all. It's more like the Linux command line than DOS.

I've transferred all the old Thunderbird email history, though I expect Ted will have to set up the new ISP login and password because what I received was for my father's NTL cable service from before he moved house in August.

Both Smartware II and WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS run in a window under DosBox, "emulator software that emulates an IBM PC compatible computer running the older operating system, MS-DOS". I don't have the Leicester printer here so again Ted's going to have to cover that part of the install, but within the emulation window both programs seem quite comfortable and as fast as they were previously.

The Metro user interface disgusts me, now that I've seen it before removing it. There are damnable advertisements on the PC desktop, flashing away and changing from time to time. I've had an unalterable rule since my first computer, nothing moves, winks or otherwise exposes itself on my screen without my explicit permission. That's why, for example, I disable smilies and animated GIFs, and why I run Adblock and NoFlash and NoScript in my browsers. The only thing moving on my screen at the moment is the text cursor and the seconds count on my taskbar digital clock. That level of visual tranquility is also an essential for my father, not that I've asked his opinion. He's going to have enough qualms on being faced with a 21" 1920x1080 monitor for the first time. I'll get Ted to show him where to find the magnifier.

I did find a Norton Commander file manager with two panes displaying directories side by side. I never quite worked out why Microsoft abandoned File Manager though even that was an abysmal answer since it still relied on mouse dragging rather than keyboard navigation. What I picked up for this machine is Double Commander. It has the standard keystrokes, F3 to view, F4 to edit, F5 to copy, F6 to move, F7 for a new directory and F8 to delete. How can that not be easier to use than a mouse, whether you have a single directory pane or two on the screen? Windows Explorer is a dire attempt at providing file management and always has been.

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Tinkering with Windows 8.1

Post by LarsMac »

I had upgraded my wife's laptop to 8.1 and got rid of the Metro thingy.

She likes it much better now.

Had not seen Classicshell, yet. May give that a try.

Once you get rid of that ugly-ass start page, Windoze 8.1 is not too bad. I am installing it on my new gaming rig so I can have a go at some of the new games coming out.

Though for all my financial stuff, I am perfectly happy to leave it all on my old Pentium 4 with XP that sits back well behind my firewall and is NEVER used for random browsing.
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Tinkering with Windows 8.1

Post by Bryn Mawr »

Týr;1440097 wrote: I submit my progress report to the thread...

The hardware arrived. Then some of my various offspring brought the data down from Leicester on their travels. I have combined the two.

Windows 8.1 plus ClassicShell has given me a desktop with no gestures, no charms, boot straight to the desktop and an appearance close enough to Classic (Windows 2000) for me to forget which version I'm actually on. The Start button now pops up the programs and settings menus as it ought to. I can find no trace of either Apps or Metro on the machine - I've no idea how to get Metro or any of the Apps to appear now, not even if I wanted to.

The main difference is that the old quicklaunch bar has melded into the running tasks icons and pin/unpin decides what's visible. That's not too hard to live with. There's no Command window either, there's a Powershell instead which is not the same at all. It's more like the Linux command line than DOS.

I've transferred all the old Thunderbird email history, though I expect Ted will have to set up the new ISP login and password because what I received was for my father's NTL cable service from before he moved house in August.

Both Smartware II and WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS run in a window under DosBox, "emulator software that emulates an IBM PC compatible computer running the older operating system, MS-DOS". I don't have the Leicester printer here so again Ted's going to have to cover that part of the install, but within the emulation window both programs seem quite comfortable and as fast as they were previously.

The Metro user interface disgusts me, now that I've seen it before removing it. There are damnable advertisements on the PC desktop, flashing away and changing from time to time. I've had an unalterable rule since my first computer, nothing moves, winks or otherwise exposes itself on my screen without my explicit permission. That's why, for example, I disable smilies and animated GIFs, and why I run Adblock and NoFlash and NoScript in my browsers. The only thing moving on my screen at the moment is the text cursor and the seconds count on my taskbar digital clock. That level of visual tranquility is also an essential for my father, not that I've asked his opinion. He's going to have enough qualms on being faced with a 21" 1920x1080 monitor for the first time. I'll get Ted to show him where to find the magnifier.

I did find a Norton Commander file manager with two panes displaying directories side by side. I never quite worked out why Microsoft abandoned File Manager though even that was an abysmal answer since it still relied on mouse dragging rather than keyboard navigation. What I picked up for this machine is Double Commander. It has the standard keystrokes, F3 to view, F4 to edit, F5 to copy, F6 to move, F7 for a new directory and F8 to delete. How can that not be easier to use than a mouse, whether you have a single directory pane or two on the screen? Windows Explorer is a dire attempt at providing file management and always has been.


I played with DOSBox for a while but never managed to get it to run either program full screen - as soon as you switched it to full screen mode the video locked (although it was still accepting keystrokes).

Given the state of the paternal eyesight that was a big restriction - everything runs full screen with text the size of a billboard.
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