Should Christians Own a Gun ... Or Own a Gun Factory?

Post by **jones jones** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:45 am

They say you learn something new every day and I sure did today. Namely that The Vatican Bank is the main shareholder of the largest arms industry in the World. So I asked myself: “Why are you so surprised? I mean these are the guys who brought you The Crusades and the Inquisition.

The IOR (the Institute for the Works of Religion) … damn another euphemism, aka the Vatican Bank has never ever released a list of their assets, so its like rather difficult to figure out how much of Beretta they actually own. However, the head of the Vatican Bank, don’t know if he’s still the boss, Cardinal Calgano, was nick-named Cardinal Rambo. Go figure.

I guess that hardly anyone knows that the Pietro Beretta gun factory Ltd, allegedly the biggest arms industry in the whole world, is controlled by the holding SpA Beretta and that the majority shareholder of the Beretta Holding SpA after Gussalli Ugo Beretta is, wait for it … the IOR (Institute for Religious Works), commonly known as the Vatican Bank.

And all this is going down, so to speak, in the only religious organisation on the planet that has its own independent state … the Vatican City. Most of the golf courses in the world are larger than the Vatican. I’ve been there and it takes about an hour to walk from one side to the other.

Counting its wealth on the other hand will take a lot longer.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:55 am

jones jones;1414436 wrote: They say you learn something new every day and I sure did today. Namely that The Vatican Bank is the main shareholder of the largest arms industry in the World. So I asked myself: ï¿½Why are you so surprised? I mean these are the guys who brought you The Crusades and the Inquisition.

The IOR (the Institute for the Works of Religion) ï¿½ damn another euphemism, aka the Vatican Bank has never ever released a list of their assets, so its like rather difficult to figure out how much of Beretta they actually own. However, the head of the Vatican Bank, donï¿½t know if heï¿½s still the boss, Cardinal Calgano, was nick-named Cardinal Rambo. Go figure.

I guess that hardly anyone knows that the Pietro Beretta gun factory Ltd, allegedly the biggest arms industry in the whole world, is controlled by the holding SpA Beretta and that the majority shareholder of the Beretta Holding SpA after Gussalli Ugo Beretta is, wait for it ï¿½ the IOR (Institute for Religious Works), commonly known as the Vatican Bank.

And all this is going down, so to speak, in the only religious organisation on the planet that has its own independent state ï¿½ the Vatican City. Most of the golf courses in the world are larger than the Vatican. Iï¿½ve been there and it takes about an hour to walk from one side to the other.

Counting its wealth on the other hand will take a lot longer.

Substitute Beretta for Sword.

Then said he unto them, But now, he that has a purse, let him take it, and likewise his bag: and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Luke 22:36

King James

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:57 am

Onward Christian Soldiers?

BTW, what is SpA?

Post by **jones jones** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:07 am

I don't actually know. The name cropped up while I was doing research. However, there is according to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, this ... "Exor S.p.A. is an Italian-based investment company controlled by the Agnelli family who also own Fiat."

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:21 am

tude dog;1414437 wrote: Substitute Beretta for Sword.

Luke 22:36

King JamesAnd this is a justification you lean on for guns? You think Jesus was encouraging his disciples to have weapons?

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:30 am

Ahso!;1414445 wrote: And this is a justification you lean on for guns? You think Jesus was encouraging his disciples to have weapons?

^ Ellul, Jacques (1988). Anarchy and Christianity. p. 64. "The further comment of Jesus explains in part the surprising statement, for he says: 'It is necessary that the prophecy be fulfilled according to which I would be put in the ranks of criminals' (Luke 22:36-37). The idea of fighting with just two swords is ridiculous. The swords are enough, however, to justify the accusation that Jesus is the head of a band of brigands. We have to note here that Jesus is consciously fulfilling prophecy. If he were not the saying would make no sense"

Sell your cloak and buy a sword - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jesus was fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah 53:9-12. It is not, tude, a call for arms; he was rushing to destiny.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:31 am

Accountable;1414439 wrote: Onward Christian Soldiers?

BTW, what is SpA?It appears to have something to do with company filings for the Italian government. Similar to LLC in the US.Subsidiaries

A. Uberti, Srl.

Benelli Armi S.p.A.

Luigi Franchi S.p.A.

SAKO[6]

Stoeger Industries

Beretta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:37 am

Ahso!;1414445 wrote: And this is a justification you lean on for guns? You think Jesus was encouraging his disciples to have weapons?

Just throwing it out there.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:46 am

tude dog;1414450 wrote: Just throwing it out there.That's pretty evasive.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:50 am

AnneBoleyn;1414448 wrote:

Jesus was fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah 53:9-12. It is not, tude, a call for arms; he was rushing to destiny.

Fine.

Make of it what you want. Nothing to me.

Not like anybody is out there cutting off ears.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:54 am

tude dog;1414452 wrote: Fine.

Make of it what you want. Nothing to me.

Not like anybody is out there cutting off ears.It was your input. Explain why you offered it to the discussion.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:00 pm

Ahso!;1414451 wrote: That's pretty evasive. This is what I'm talking about with you - you don't stand behind anything you write, which appears to be why you choose to be vague. A gun isn't a backbone and a spine is exactly what you lack.

LOL

I stand by what I wrote.

A question was asked about the Church investing in a gun company. I threw out that apparently from the Gospels, Luke, weapons were no problem. And like I pointed out later Jesus' had a buddy who had no problem cutting off an ear.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:14 pm

tude dog;1414456 wrote: LOL

I stand by what I wrote.

A question was asked about the Church investing in a gun company. I threw out that apparently from the Gospels, Luke, weapons were no problem. And like I pointed out later Jesus' had a buddy who had no problem cutting off an ear.Now connect the relevance in what you "threw out there" with why the Vatican invests in a gun manufacturer. Show us your evidence for your assertion.

FYI, this is what a discussion is. We say things out of intellectual honesty rather than flippancy. Light-hearted comments are part of a discussion and can be tolerated to a point, but that's not what you were doing.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:47 pm

tude dog;1414437 wrote: Substitute Beretta for Sword.

Luke 22:36

King James

Quoting a single verse from the Bible rarely gives an accurate account of its meaning - without the context of the rest of the chapter it cannot be understood.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:49 pm

Accountable;1414439 wrote: Onward Christian Soldiers?

BTW, what is SpA?

Similar, I think, to LLP - it denotes the type of company.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:09 pm

Ahso!;1414460 wrote: Now connect the relevance in what you "threw out there" with why the Vatican invests in a gun manufacturer. Show us your evidence for your assertion.

FYI, this is what a discussion is. We say things out of intellectual honesty rather than flippancy. Light-hearted comments are part of a discussion and can be tolerated to a point, but that's not what you were doing.

Evidence?

The connection seemed obvious to me.

According tho Luke, Jesus had no problem with weapons capable of killing, and neither did his followers, and I can't blame them. People don't use swords much in the western world anymore, preferring guns.

Is that plain enough?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:16 pm

tude dog;1414604 wrote: Evidence?

The connection seemed obvious to me.

According tho Luke, Jesus had no problem with weapons capable of killing, and neither did his followers, and I can't blame them. People don't use swords much in the western world anymore, preferring guns.

Is that plain enough?Your problem is that you assume the Christian organization we're discussing has the same warped interpretation of the "scripture" that you do and you've got not a shred of evidence to back that up.. Anne pointed out your error but you don't want to acknowledge it because you're determined to be right in your own mind regardless of how crazy it appears to others reading this thread.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:52 pm

Ahso!;1414605 wrote: Your problem is that you assume the Christian organization we're discussing has the same warped interpretation of the "scripture" that you do and you've got not a shred of evidence to back that up.. Anne pointed out your error but you don't want to acknowledge it because you're determined to be right in your own mind regardless of how crazy it appears to others reading this thread.

Anne posted a reference to Isiah to clarify. If that is her theology, I am not going to argue. That all is a matter of faith.

I am not a Christian and have no idea how they view their own scripture. What I posted was plain language of Luke. I also know that one of his buddies cut off the ear of a Roman soldier, which sounds pretty violent to me.

Maybe I got the story wrong and nobody cut off an ear. Maybe there are secret meanings to the words of Luke not obvious to the run of the mill heathen.

I'll just leave the Christians alone with their scripture.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:00 pm

tude dog;1414607 wrote: Anne posted a reference to Isiah to clarify. If that is her theology, I am not going to argue. That all is a matter of faith.

I am not a Christian and have no idea how they view their own scripture. What I posted was plain language of Luke. I also know that one of his buddies cut off the ear of a Roman soldier, which sounds pretty violent to me.

Maybe I got the story wrong and nobody cut off an ear. Maybe there are secret meanings to the words of Luke not obvious to the run of the mill heathen.

I'll just leave the Christians alone with their scripture.Then why use it to prove your point, especially if you have no idea of what it means by reading the rest of what's around it?

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:31 pm

Ahso!;1414608 wrote: Then why use it to prove your point, especially if you have no idea of what it means by reading the rest of what's around it?

What's around it I missed? You could enlighten me. I suspect there is nothing you have to add except empty harping.

Anne pointed out something that makes sense to her. That being a religious view, there is nowhere for me to go with it.

In the meantime, the plain language of Luke seems very clear.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:15 am

tude dog;1414604 wrote: Evidence?

The connection seemed obvious to me.

According tho Luke, Jesus had no problem with weapons capable of killing, and neither did his followers, and I can't blame them. People don't use swords much in the western world anymore, preferring guns.

Is that plain enough?

No it is not - We (AB and I) have already pointed out that you quote of a single verse of the Bible is, as always in these cases, misleading. The verse, when taken in context, does not support or require the use or ownership of swords but says that, in this particular instance, the Disciples needed to have one or two amongst then in order to fulfil the prophesy.

Is that plain enough?

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:17 pm

Bryn Mawr;1414648 wrote: No it is not - We (AB and I) have already pointed out that you quote of a single verse of the Bible is, as always in these cases, misleading. The verse, when taken in context, does not support or require the use or ownership of swords but says that, in this particular instance, the Disciples needed to have one or two amongst then in order to fulfil the prophesy.

Is that plain enough?

Whatever.

Text, even in context doesn't mean what it says, because

Isaiah wrote a thousand years earlier, , ,

You know, I don't care.

I make a simple observation, no reason to get up all in arms.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:30 pm

tude dog;1414687 wrote: Whatever.

Text, even in context doesn't mean what it says, because

Isaiah wrote a thousand years earlier, , ,

You know, I don't care.

I make a simple observation, no reason to get up all in arms.No you didn't, you're not Christian and you don't know what the Christian bible says. You either read or overheard what another ignorant gun-slinger said and went with it.

That's all okay because your words are immortalized here where you can return and bemoan them at will.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:01 pm

Ahso!;1414697 wrote: No you didn't, you're not Christian and you don't know what the Christian bible says. You either read or overheard what another ignorant gun-slinger said and went with it.

That's all okay because your words are immortalized here where you can return and bemoan them at will.

Still waiting to hear where I quoted the passage out of context.

Of course you have no idea, or I would have heard it by now.

What is this about my words immortalized? That would make me feel G-dly,

except,

This is the internet, NO?

I make mistakes, and I admit that. There is like zero on this thread which would ever cause me any lack of sleep.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:22 am

tude dog;1414687 wrote: Whatever.

Text, even in context doesn't mean what it says, because

Isaiah wrote a thousand years earlier, , ,

You know, I don't care.

I make a simple observation, no reason to get up all in arms.

The last thing I would be is all up in arms :wah:

I do, however, see it as intellectual dishonesty to put up a point, have it shown to be incorrect and totally ignore the response then put the same point up later as if it were fact.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:25 am

tude dog;1414702 wrote: Still waiting to hear where I quoted the passage out of context.

Of course you have no idea, or I would have heard it by now.

What is this about my words immortalized? That would make me feel G-dly,

except,

This is the internet, NO?

I make mistakes, and I admit that. There is like zero on this thread which would ever cause me any lack of sleep.

Posts #6 and #14 already cover it.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:26 am

Bryn Mawr;1414729 wrote: Posts #6 and #14 already cover it.

OK, I read the chapter again.

Like I told Ahso! in #18, Anne posted a reference to Isiah to clarify. If that is her theology, I am not going to argue. That all is a matter of faith. I'll just leave the Christians alone with their scripture.

How you people read it, that is fine with me. I don't want to argue with you or Anne. No doubt you have a better understanding than I do. You both have been polite and respectful.

There is a pest who deserves no consideration, and I will continue to give him the answers he deserves even though it make him seem wise in his own eyes.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:28 am

A slight detour because of an accusation:

Anyone remember the Flip Wilson Show? Wilson did a female character named Geraldine. Geraldine would always blame someone else for her actions, namely The Devil. Geraldine's most famous line was: "The Devil made me buy this dress". Geraldine was a victim of The Devil.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:50 pm

tude, I was not arguing either. Merely using your words to point out, as you did yourself, you know content not context. My dad paid good American cash on my education. Let me at least show-off every now & then by blabbering on a forum. Money well spent. :yh_rotfl