Oscar Pistorius.....what next ?

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Bruv
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Oscar Pistorius.....what next ?

Post by Bruv »

Oscar Pistorius , a man with no legs below the knee, ran in the Olympics against able bodied men.

He uses special sprung metal 'legs'.

What happens when they improve the legs so much that it gives him an advantage?

I just don't see how an able bodied flesh and blood athlete can compete against a mechanically enhanced athlete......just don't seem right to me.
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Post by YZGI »

Bruv;1399756 wrote: Oscar Pistorius , a man with no legs below the knee, ran in the Olympics against able bodied men.

He uses special sprung metal 'legs'.

What happens when they improve the legs so much that it gives him an advantage?

I just don't see how an able bodied flesh and blood athlete can compete against a mechanically enhanced athlete......just don't seem right to me.


I see your point. On the other hand people will say if its an advantage to have no legs then you may have your legs cut off.

I think when the time comes where mechanically enhanced athletes can go as fast or set records, the enhanced and not enhanced will be split for competition. Its a tough call either way. I know they have the Para Olympics but I'm sure for the athletes its not quite the same.
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Post by spot »

I agree with you entirely. Allowing that chap to compete has put the Olympics on a course where eventually only artificially enhanced people will be able to win in any competition. So far it's legs, next it'll be eyes, fingertips, mechanical hearts and lungs, replacement oxygen transport fluid. He should never have been let loose.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

spot;1399759 wrote: I agree with you entirely. Allowing that chap to compete has put the Olympics on a course where eventually only artificially enhanced people will be able to win in any competition. So far it's legs, next it'll be eyes, fingertips, mechanical hearts and lungs, replacement oxygen transport fluid. He should never have been let loose.


What an unfortunate term t use for a courageous man who lost both legs.

I agree with Bruv, I don't think It's fair either way but hats off to his courage.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

spot;1399759 wrote: I agree with you entirely. Allowing that chap to compete has put the Olympics on a course where eventually only artificially enhanced people will be able to win in any competition. So far it's legs, next it'll be eyes, fingertips, mechanical hearts and lungs, replacement oxygen transport fluid. He should never have been let loose.


What an unfortunate term to use for a courageous man who lost both legs.

I agree with Bruv, I don't think It's fair either way but hats off to his courage.
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Post by spot »

oscar;1399761 wrote: What an unfortunate term to use for a courageous man who lost both legs.This may be a new use of the word courageous with which I'm unfamiliar. Perhaps you could explain in what sense he's courageous.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

spot;1399765 wrote: This may be a new use of the word courageous with which I'm unfamiliar. Perhaps you could explain in what sense he's courageous.


You know what ? Talk to yourself.

As a double amputee It may not be entirely fair to compete with metal sprung legs but your comments are vile and are unnescessary nor helpful to Bruv's thread.

You really have got a problem....
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Post by spot »

oscar;1399766 wrote: You know what ? Talk to yourself.

As a double amputee It may not be entirely fair to compete with metal sprung legs but your comments are vile and are unnescessary nor helpful to Bruv's thread.

You really have got a problem....
It's not my fault you can't think. Let me try short words.

We have one single example of a chap running on artificial lower legs. He happens to be a world-class performer. Either we have a massive coincidence, unlikely but possible, or the fact that he has these artificial aids to running is the reason he's a world-class performer instead of a mid-ability county runner. There are a lot more of those than there are runners competing internationally. I suggest the odds are that the legs have propelled his inherent ability and not the other way around. This is a meaningful recognized statistical process - taking one at random out of a set you're less likely to pick at a boundary, in this case excellence, than to pick from within the main body.

To have had his lower legs removed as useless before the age of one doesn't make his subsequent progress through life courageous in any sense. If it doesn't kill you it makes you stronger, I thought that was the trite truism of this century. Having lost his legs while saving campers from a rampaging wildebeest, that would be courageous. Courage is a deliberate chosen act, not a response to a setback.
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Post by Accountable »

Bruv;1399756 wrote: Oscar Pistorius , a man with no legs below the knee, ran in the Olympics against able bodied men.

He uses special sprung metal 'legs'.

What happens when they improve the legs so much that it gives him an advantage?

I just don't see how an able bodied flesh and blood athlete can compete against a mechanically enhanced athlete......just don't seem right to me.
Olympic athletes get banned if they try to enhance their performance through chemical means. Would a runner be allowed to wear those springs if he had legs and feet? It would be a fairly simple matter to fashion some.

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Post by Bruv »

spot;1399765 wrote: This may be a new use of the word courageous with which I'm unfamiliar. Perhaps you could explain in what sense he's courageous.


Could I help here?

Remembering that you Spot unilaterally want 'read' to read 'red' so you will not stumble when reeding to your grandchildren, saves you pre-reeding it I suppose, or showing a human frailty perhaps.

I would describe Oscar Pistorius as courageous, in that he has had "To have courage is to have strength to stand in the face of adversity" by standing up to the Athletic ruling bodies.....(On those strange legs too)
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Post by Bruv »

And on second thoughts......"Courage is a deliberate chosen act, not a response to a setback."

I suspect 'choosing' to run in an able bodied Olympics against all the odds, prompting discussions and derision.....like this thread.....is getting close to courageous
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Post by spot »

Bruv;1399771 wrote: he has had "To have courage is to have strength to stand in the face of adversity" by standing up to the Athletic ruling bodies.....(On those strange legs too)Or a good legal team. I think you're putting strain on something that needn't bear it. There are lots of words for what he did, courage needn't be brought into it.

The ruling body simply said there was no evidence presented that demonstrated a net advantage. That's a failure in the gathering of evidence and its presentation. I'd be surprised if it's the case that his performance doesn't benefit. Regardless of whether it does or not, if the precedent allows modified humans unless it can be demonstrated they have a net advantage then there's no podium place left for non-modified humans in international sport, because some modified humans will have an advantage which (by the nature of what can be demonstrated) can't be proven, and they'll be the winners.
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Post by spot »

Bruv;1399772 wrote: And on second thoughts......"Courage is a deliberate chosen act, not a response to a setback."

I suspect 'choosing' to run in an able bodied Olympics against all the odds, prompting discussions and derision.....like this thread.....is getting close to courageousIf he is, in fact, a second-rate runner producing a first-rate performance on the track, the word you're failing to uncover is smug. I don't deride him, I think he should run in the Paralympics. I think the Paralympic performances in general should be higher faster stronger than those in the unaided competition, and if they're not yet then that's down to inadequate equipment and poor training.

I also challenge "against all the odds". What's true is "against opposition".
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Post by Bruv »

spot;1399773 wrote: Or a good legal team. I think you're putting strain on something that needn't bear it. There are lots of words for what he did, courage needn't be brought into it.

The ruling body simply said there was no evidence presented that demonstrated a net advantage. That's a failure in the gathering of evidence and its presentation. I'd be surprised if it's the case that his performance doesn't benefit. Regardless of whether it does or not, if the precedent allows modified humans unless it can be demonstrated they have a net advantage then there's no podium place left for non-modified humans in international sport, because some modified humans will have an advantage which (by the nature of what can be demonstrated) can't be proven, and they'll be the winners.


We have two topics running alongside each other here.....don't we?

The main one being whether anybody with a disability can compete equally with the able bodied.

As a comparison would a sighted person be disadvantaged playing handball with a blind team using an adapted ball containing a bell......if he was blindfold?



Courage........quotes
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Post by spot »

Bruv;1399777 wrote: We have two topics running alongside each other here.....don't we?

The main one being whether anybody with a disability can compete equally with the able bodied.

As a comparison would a sighted person be disadvantaged playing handball with a blind team using an adapted ball containing a bell......if he was blindfold?



Courage........quotes


I'm sure we could invent odd scenarios all night if we stayed up.

I like the quotes. They're overwhelmingly related to doing something special rather than being something special.
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Post by Bruv »

spot;1399775 wrote: If he is, in fact, a second-rate runner producing a first-rate performance on the track, the word you're failing to uncover is smug. I don't deride him, I think he should run in the Paralympics. I think the Paralympic performances in general should be higher faster stronger than those in the unaided competition, and if they're not yet then that's down to inadequate equipment and poor training.

I also challenge "against all the odds". What's true is "against opposition".


You are a cantankerous so and so, slicker than a gob full of snot, comes to mind.



You never ever 'get it' do you ?

This guy is an athlete, he has campaigned for years to compete equally with able bodied athletes.

He has 'fought' the authorities to enable this, in doing so he has shown courage.

He wouldn't really know if his enhanced sprung legs give him an advantage, I doubt very much whether he is smug about it. I suspect he wants to compete equally for his own personal reasons, to be seen as a whole man, equal to other athletes.

If anyone has it wrong it is the authorities, not him.

I suspect they have gone far too far conceding to PC pressures
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Post by Bruv »

spot;1399778 wrote:

I like the quotes. They're overwhelmingly related to doing something special rather than being something special.


Like Oscar..........
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Post by spot »

Bruv;1399781 wrote: Like Oscar..........


If oscar ever does anything special, let me know.
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Post by Wandrin »

The olympic committee originally rejected him, but reconsidered after talking with experts about whether his blades would enhance his performance. They were shown prosthetics that would and would not enhance performance and then decided to allow him to compete.

The real problem will come in shortly, since gene splicing is a reality and a parent can choose to "enhance" a fertilized egg, to grow a child with the "right" genes for a given sport. There is no way to detect whether this has been done.
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Post by Bruv »

spot;1399782 wrote: If oscar ever does anything special, let me know.
Oscar against all the odds ran in the Olympics.....................are you keeping up ?
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Post by Accountable »

Wandrin;1399803 wrote: The olympic committee originally rejected him, but reconsidered after talking with experts about whether his blades would enhance his performance. They were shown prosthetics that would and would not enhance performance and then decided to allow him to compete.
So you're saying that he could have won gold, but they set him up to be barely good enough to show up, but ultimately fail? On Purpose??
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Post by jones jones »

Kinda like a guy with false teeth having an advantage at a hot dog eating competition I guess.
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Post by Wandrin »

Accountable;1399822 wrote: So you're saying that he could have won gold, but they set him up to be barely good enough to show up, but ultimately fail? On Purpose??


No. That's not what I said at all. The experts consulted by the olympic committee said that prosthetics of the type that he uses would not give him an unfair advantage over others. The experts showed the committee the types of prosthetics that would and would not confer an advantage and explained the difference. After this bit of education, the committee allowed him to compete.
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Post by jones jones »

As we are constantly being reminded by the advocates of the "PC" doctrine, people with this kind of "disability" are "physically challenged." Therefor being "challenged" is surely more of a disadvantaged than an advantage.
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Post by YZGI »

His name sounds like a Gladiator.
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Post by Snooz »

I thought it sounded like a Roman public toilet.
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Post by Accountable »

Could be both.
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Post by spot »

I do hope the chap's kept to his fitness program during the recent brou-ha. I'm preparing a letter to the South African Embassy recommending temporary release during the Paralympics of 2016, 2020 and 2024 so he can continue to represent his country. I still don't think he should be allowed anywhere near the Olympics though.
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Post by G#Gill »

He always admitted that he shot his fiancée - not realising that it was her. So he was bound to get a custodial sentence whatever. But deliberate murder was not possible to prove beyond doubt. What a responsibility for just one judge to give a verdict.

Is it better justice to have a jury decide on guilt or innocence, or to have one judge to decide these things ? Perhaps 3 judges would be the ideal ?
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Post by spot »

The judge's summing up regarding the evidence and the requirements of the law would have been the same had there been a jury. Whether the jury would have followed the judge's advice or not is another matter. The verdict that the judge in this case came to is an excellent one because she refused to be dazzled by the bullying of the prosecution. The fact that a person can paint a picture which fits the available evidence doesn't make that picture a true representation, it just means he's a good story-teller. The judge threw out his picture as one of several possibilities, saying she wouldn't convict on a "maybe" however well it hung together.

What juries are good at is recognizing a law is unfair, and bringing in a not guilty verdict in the teeth of overwhelming evidence of guilt. No judge would ever do that. Time after time, for example, Victorian juries came back with Not Guilty verdicts despite the evidence where unmarried mothers-to-be had deliberately failed to bring an unborn child to term, given that a guilty verdict would have resulted in her being hanged. That's what juries are for, in my opinion.
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Post by FourPart »

I've always found the circumstances of it being an 'accidental' shooting extremely questionable. This was not a matter of being surprised by a potential intruder & a spur of the moment shot. This was a calculated shot firing through a closed door. That is no accident. That is an intention to kill. The fact that the person he shot was not the intruder he was expecting is neither here nor there. Regardless of who the victim was, it was still pre-meditated murder. The act has never been in question - only the intended victim. He claims that he thought it was an intruder (who just happens to stop by to use the bathroom, closing the door behind him?), but we only have his word for that. Either way, it doesn't make any difference. The fact is that it was deliberate, premeditated murder, plain & simple - yet they're not even proceeding with a Murder charge, but Manslaughter instead.
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Post by spot »

The judge's point is that yes, you can tell that story and it makes sense, but she doesn't know it to be true beyond reasonable doubt. That final phrase has been the bedrock of English law for centuries, though it's being whittled down these last few years which is a deplorable matter of great regret.
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Post by FourPart »

The question is where you drawn the borderline of 'Reasonable' Doubt. If the defendant were to claim that it wasn't really him who committed the crime, but a bunch of Aliens who beamed into his place & framed him, then there is a 'doubt', regardless of how microscopic that doubt may be, but however ridiculous or plausible a claim may be, without hard evidence there is no Black or White, just loads of shades of Grey - and even WITH evidence, no matter how reliable it may appear, there is still always room for doubt - somewhere.
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Post by G#Gill »

You've just answered your own question. There is reasonable doubt concerning pre-meditated murder, hence the not guilty verdict.
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Post by LarsMac »

It is easy to sit here, thousands of mile away, with no skin in the game, and talk about what one can be certain of.

But put yourself in the position of the defendant, knowing your life is on the line, and think about that "reasonable doubt" from there.

Or from the judge or jury perspective, knowing that the decision you make could result in a person hanging from a rope.
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Post by spot »

A rather more sensible interpretation of the meaning of murder has been applied, on appeal.Justice Lorimer Leach said that having armed himself with a high-calibre weapon, Pistorius must have foreseen that whoever was behind the door might die. Pistorius' lawyer argued that he believed that there was an intruder in the house but the judge said that the identity of the person behind the door was irrelevant.

Oscar Pistorius verdict changed to murder - BBC News

Rather more sensible than the squirmings of last year.
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Post by Bruv »

Being that the original Judge was a black women, can I hazard the theory that she lent over backwards to the white accused man, so as not to show bias ?
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Bruv;1490246 wrote: Being that the original Judge was a black women, can I hazard the theory that she lent over backwards to the white accused man, so as not to show bias ?


Ask your wife. I'll bet she laughs at you!!!!!!!
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Post by Bruv »

AnneBoleyn;1490250 wrote: Ask your wife. I'll bet she laughs at you!!!!!!!


Judge Thokozile Masipa born the same year as me but in Soweto, so while I was viewing Sharpville and 'The Troubles' from London, she was living it.

My wife is a few years younger, she worked under Rhodesian PM Ian Smith's regime for a while, attitudes were very similar in both countries.

When I read out my comment she agreed I could be right.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

In that case, Bruv, I guess you are.
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Post by Bruv »

AnneBoleyn;1490253 wrote: In that case, Bruv, I guess you are.


There have been times when I have been introduced to Zimbabweans, and they have called me sir and either curtsied or bowed.

It can be embarrassing and maybe I am being super sensitive.....but the older of my wife's kids can't call me by my christian name, it's not an age thing.

There is a feeling of inferiority from many first generation Africans, sometimes over compensated. The second generation don't always inherit the cautiousness of their parents, demanding equality in a still unequal world........and that unfortunately is where the trouble starts.
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Post by spot »

We appear to be due for sentencing.

Oscar Pistorius: Sentencing hearing begins in murder case - BBC News

Serving six months, or whatever he served, really wasn't adequate. Time served at home on curfew isn't either.
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Post by magentaflame »

Six years.......pathetic

He'll be out in 2 to 3.
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Post by spot »

Three years. He has to serve a minimum of half the six year sentence in jail. It's better than the original eight months.

He'd have done far better not to have fueled his brain on testosterone, or at least stopped trying to wriggle out of the consequence of killing someone with deliberate intent.
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Oscar Pistorius.....what next ?

Post by spot »

The reconsidered sentence has now reached 15 years, still the minimum for murder.

There's no indication in the report of the proportion of this revised sentence which must be served in jail before a parole process can be considered, but I bet it's less than half.

Oscar Pistorius jail term for killing Reeva Steenkamp more than doubled - BBC News
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Oscar Pistorius.....what next ?

Post by magentaflame »

Just saw this in the news....thought it was 13? At least they somewhat doubled it.
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Oscar Pistorius.....what next ?

Post by LarsMac »

Someone from South Africa might come along and enlighten us on the laws governing Parole in that country?
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Oscar Pistorius.....what next ?

Post by spot »

magentaflame;1514940 wrote: Just saw this in the news....thought it was 13? At least they somewhat doubled it.


The sentence has been revised to 15 of which he has cumulatively already served something over a year in jail, between bouts of being released.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
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Oscar Pistorius.....what next ?

Post by G#Gill »

At the time of the trial, I thought it very strange that somebody would fire four shots through a closed door without ascertaining if it was his girlfriend first. He must have seen that she was not in bed, so the chances were that she was in fact in the bathroom, as that was where he heard noises coming from ! I was suspicious about the whole story that he spun. I expect he will be out of prison in about 7 years any way. His running career, though, is well and truly over.
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Oscar Pistorius.....what next ?

Post by magentaflame »

Was discussing this at work.

I'm not sure about you guys ......but when in a long relationship do any of you close the bathroom door ? In fact do you lock it? That's the bit that confuses me. I would want to know why the bathroom door was locked.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
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