Christopher Tappin
Christopher Tappin
There are currently two cases that appear to be unrelated, it just seems strange to me that Christopher Tappin has been easily extradited to face charges in the US, while Abu Qatada is proving impossible to return to his own land.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Christopher Tappin
As for the first gentleman, the British are merely unused to the American lust for a conviction regardless of justice. If it can be successfully prosecuted then it makes sod all difference how contrived the case or how egregious the sting.
Regarding Abu Qatada, the chap's a national asset in much the way that Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness were during the Troubles. Talking to Sinn Fein was the pathway to the peace process, talking to Abu Qatada would be no different if we had but the wit to do it. Intransigence in Northern Ireland gave way to the two of them developing into senior statesmen. I'd happily see Abu Qatada in the House of Lords twenty years from now. Wasting him to rot in a Jordanian jail is very short-sighted.
Regarding Abu Qatada, the chap's a national asset in much the way that Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness were during the Troubles. Talking to Sinn Fein was the pathway to the peace process, talking to Abu Qatada would be no different if we had but the wit to do it. Intransigence in Northern Ireland gave way to the two of them developing into senior statesmen. I'd happily see Abu Qatada in the House of Lords twenty years from now. Wasting him to rot in a Jordanian jail is very short-sighted.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Christopher Tappin
spot;1386006 wrote: As for the first gentleman, the British are merely unused to the American lust for a conviction regardless of justice. If it can be successfully prosecuted then it makes sod all difference how contrived the case or how egregious the sting.
Rubbish !!!
If there's an extradition treaty between the US and the UK, there's an extradition treaty. ( Amended 2003 )
Once In place, you can't start picking and choosing who's extradited.
However, There is no extradition treaty In force between the UK and Jordan which adds to the complications of getting rid of Abu Qatada.
It's simple, we have an extradition treaty with the first example and none with the second example.
Rubbish !!!
If there's an extradition treaty between the US and the UK, there's an extradition treaty. ( Amended 2003 )
Once In place, you can't start picking and choosing who's extradited.
However, There is no extradition treaty In force between the UK and Jordan which adds to the complications of getting rid of Abu Qatada.
It's simple, we have an extradition treaty with the first example and none with the second example.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Christopher Tappin
spot;1386006 wrote: As for the first gentleman, the British are merely unused to the American lust for a conviction regardless of justice. If it can be successfully prosecuted then it makes sod all difference how contrived the case or how egregious the sting.
Regarding Abu Qatada, the chap's a national asset in much the way that Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness were during the Troubles. Talking to Sinn Fein was the pathway to the peace process, talking to Abu Qatada would be no different if we had but the wit to do it. Intransigence in Northern Ireland gave way to the two of them developing into senior statesmen. I'd happily see Abu Qatada in the House of Lords twenty years from now. Wasting him to rot in a Jordanian jail is very short-sighted.
I always have to open another window with a dictionary when I read your posts.
If I were American I could see why they might be offended by that "Lust for conviction regardless of justice" remark.
The question I have to ask, and you are the kiddie that might know, doesn't the extradition request from any country have to reach certain criteria before it is agreed to ?
Wouldn't the British look at 'how contrived the case or how egregious the sting' before submitting a UK citizen to another countries justice system ?
Regarding Abu Qatada, the chap's a national asset in much the way that Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness were during the Troubles. Talking to Sinn Fein was the pathway to the peace process, talking to Abu Qatada would be no different if we had but the wit to do it. Intransigence in Northern Ireland gave way to the two of them developing into senior statesmen. I'd happily see Abu Qatada in the House of Lords twenty years from now. Wasting him to rot in a Jordanian jail is very short-sighted.
I always have to open another window with a dictionary when I read your posts.
If I were American I could see why they might be offended by that "Lust for conviction regardless of justice" remark.
The question I have to ask, and you are the kiddie that might know, doesn't the extradition request from any country have to reach certain criteria before it is agreed to ?
Wouldn't the British look at 'how contrived the case or how egregious the sting' before submitting a UK citizen to another countries justice system ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Christopher Tappin
oscar;1386007 wrote: Rubbish !!!
If there's an extradition treaty between the US and the UK, there's an extradition treaty. ( Amended 2003 )
Once In place, you can't start picking and choosing who's extradited.
However, There is no extradition treaty In force between the UK and Jordan which adds to the complications of getting rid of Abu Qatada.
It's simple, we have an extradition treaty with the first example and none with the second example.
I understood the reason Abu Qatada wasn't on the first plane out, was due to the simple fact that Jordan might deal with him harshly.......like execute him ?
If there's an extradition treaty between the US and the UK, there's an extradition treaty. ( Amended 2003 )
Once In place, you can't start picking and choosing who's extradited.
However, There is no extradition treaty In force between the UK and Jordan which adds to the complications of getting rid of Abu Qatada.
It's simple, we have an extradition treaty with the first example and none with the second example.
I understood the reason Abu Qatada wasn't on the first plane out, was due to the simple fact that Jordan might deal with him harshly.......like execute him ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Christopher Tappin
Bruv;1386019 wrote: I always have to open another window with a dictionary when I read your posts.
If I were American I could see why they might be offended by that "Lust for conviction regardless of justice" remark.
The question I have to ask, and you are the kiddie that might know, doesn't the extradition request from any country have to reach certain criteria before it is agreed to ?
Wouldn't the British look at 'how contrived the case or how egregious the sting' before submitting a UK citizen to another countries justice system ?
The US extradition treaty with the UK requires that the US paperwork has to be legally correct. There's no test of evidence in any British court before the extradition request is approved.
Going the other way, a US court tests the British evidence before an extradition request of a US resident by the UK is approved. Because the US resident is protected to some extent by the Constitution, apparently.
If I were American I could see why they might be offended by that "Lust for conviction regardless of justice" remark.
The question I have to ask, and you are the kiddie that might know, doesn't the extradition request from any country have to reach certain criteria before it is agreed to ?
Wouldn't the British look at 'how contrived the case or how egregious the sting' before submitting a UK citizen to another countries justice system ?
The US extradition treaty with the UK requires that the US paperwork has to be legally correct. There's no test of evidence in any British court before the extradition request is approved.
Going the other way, a US court tests the British evidence before an extradition request of a US resident by the UK is approved. Because the US resident is protected to some extent by the Constitution, apparently.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Christopher Tappin
Bruv;1386020 wrote: I understood the reason Abu Qatada wasn't on the first plane out, was due to the simple fact that Jordan might deal with him harshly.......like execute him ?
Yes you are right but I am just saying that should the UK have the same extradition treaty as the US and UK, we'd be shot of him by now. Jordon would simply have to make a request and we would be bound by that treaty to hand him over. That would have been the far simpler route we could have taken however, we now have have all this human rights nonsence that does not allow us to boot out any terrorist If his homeland uses torture as Jordon does.
The US do not actually have to give reasons for requesting extradition of a UK national as I understand It,
It's not all one sided. We also have the case of Shrien Dewani who's legal team seem to be doing all they can to avoid extradition to South Africa.
Yes you are right but I am just saying that should the UK have the same extradition treaty as the US and UK, we'd be shot of him by now. Jordon would simply have to make a request and we would be bound by that treaty to hand him over. That would have been the far simpler route we could have taken however, we now have have all this human rights nonsence that does not allow us to boot out any terrorist If his homeland uses torture as Jordon does.
The US do not actually have to give reasons for requesting extradition of a UK national as I understand It,
It's not all one sided. We also have the case of Shrien Dewani who's legal team seem to be doing all they can to avoid extradition to South Africa.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Christopher Tappin
oscar;1386024 wrote: The US do not actually have to give reasons for requesting extradition of a UK national as I understand ItBut the European Court of Human Rights will block the extradition if, for example, the sentence of the US court might include the death penalty, which is why the US paperwork occasionally says that it will forgo a death sentence in the event of a guilty verdict. And, of course, the US penal system excludes the possibility of torture. It's the same test that ECHR applied to this expulsion to Jordan and it would apply equally to a US extradition request.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Christopher Tappin
He will be held in an american prison in conditions that arguable contravene article three of the european convention on human rights
Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This provision usually applies, apart from torture, to cases of severe police violence and poor conditions in detention.
It's likely he will be held for some months in custody and will probably have to bankrupt himself in order to pay for his defence. Perhaps he could have have gone to the European courts to argue his case? He has not committed a crime in this country nor are the americans required to prove there is a case to answer all they do is make the request. The treaty is too one sided. Remember we are talking about a country that refused to extradite IRA terrorists because they would not get a fair trial in Britain. The treaty is one sided and needs a judicial review.
Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This provision usually applies, apart from torture, to cases of severe police violence and poor conditions in detention.
It's likely he will be held for some months in custody and will probably have to bankrupt himself in order to pay for his defence. Perhaps he could have have gone to the European courts to argue his case? He has not committed a crime in this country nor are the americans required to prove there is a case to answer all they do is make the request. The treaty is too one sided. Remember we are talking about a country that refused to extradite IRA terrorists because they would not get a fair trial in Britain. The treaty is one sided and needs a judicial review.
Christopher Tappin
How these buggers have reached a position where their courts have universal jurisdiction completely baffles me. It has to be stopped. In a sane world their laws would end at their Homeland border, with the possible exception of laws applying to their own damned citizens.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Christopher Tappin
Why no simple review of the case and the conditions this side of the water ?
That seems the least we could do.
And as an aside......why "Damned citizens" Spot ?
Wouldn't "citizens" suffice ?
That seems the least we could do.
And as an aside......why "Damned citizens" Spot ?
Wouldn't "citizens" suffice ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Christopher Tappin
We have no such arrangement for the simple reason that the Blair government didn't ask for one.
Damned through their misfortune to live under the rule of such a benighted bunch of plutocrats whom they haven't the collective wit to disown and oust.
Damned through their misfortune to live under the rule of such a benighted bunch of plutocrats whom they haven't the collective wit to disown and oust.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Christopher Tappin
Just going on the conditions a seemingly law abiding 65 year old will be held under would be enough to meet the current agreement I would suggest, going on what I have seen about the case.
Best I never asked about the damned bit, now it has gone from them being unwittingly damned by bad luck, to being too stupid not to be damned.
Best I never asked about the damned bit, now it has gone from them being unwittingly damned by bad luck, to being too stupid not to be damned.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Christopher Tappin
Bruv;1386062 wrote: Best I never asked about the damned bit, now it has gone from them being unwittingly damned by bad luck, to being too stupid not to be damned.The question of where responsibility lies is one I've not yet solved. One can look back and say if this had happened, or if that had happened, then the consequence would have been avoided.
Dozens of potential events could have avoided the outbreak of World War Two in 1939, for example. France could have stopped its crippling demand for reparations at the post-war conference. The German electorate could have seen through the advantages of full employment under the Nazis and not elected them into government. The American administration could have stayed neutral and let Germany win World War One - I'm superficially attracted to that solution, actually, though not when I think about it.
Do those reasons make France or the German electorate or the American administration responsible for the outbreak of World War Two in 1939? In some sense yes. In which case what's gone wrong with America really is the responsibility of the American electorate for going along with the two-party system and not voting in sufficient numbers for an alternative.
Dozens of potential events could have avoided the outbreak of World War Two in 1939, for example. France could have stopped its crippling demand for reparations at the post-war conference. The German electorate could have seen through the advantages of full employment under the Nazis and not elected them into government. The American administration could have stayed neutral and let Germany win World War One - I'm superficially attracted to that solution, actually, though not when I think about it.
Do those reasons make France or the German electorate or the American administration responsible for the outbreak of World War Two in 1939? In some sense yes. In which case what's gone wrong with America really is the responsibility of the American electorate for going along with the two-party system and not voting in sufficient numbers for an alternative.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Christopher Tappin
spot;1386076 wrote: The question of where responsibility lies is one I've not yet solved................
........In which case what's gone wrong with America really is the responsibility of the American electorate for going along with the two-party system and not voting in sufficient numbers for an alternative.
Well there you go.......I knew with a bit of thought you could sort it out, but obviously not within the same paragraph.....well done.
........In which case what's gone wrong with America really is the responsibility of the American electorate for going along with the two-party system and not voting in sufficient numbers for an alternative.
Well there you go.......I knew with a bit of thought you could sort it out, but obviously not within the same paragraph.....well done.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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Christopher Tappin
spot;1386076 wrote:
Do those reasons make France or the German electorate or the American administration responsible for the outbreak of World War Two in 1939? In some sense yes. In which case what's gone wrong with America really is the responsibility of the American electorate for going along with the two-party system and not voting in sufficient numbers for an alternative.
Cobblers.
The UK has many alternative parties ( 3 far right parties to start with ) yet the electorate In the main opts for the three mainstream parties when voting. Having said that, make that two main stream partes... The Lib Dems are finished.
Do those reasons make France or the German electorate or the American administration responsible for the outbreak of World War Two in 1939? In some sense yes. In which case what's gone wrong with America really is the responsibility of the American electorate for going along with the two-party system and not voting in sufficient numbers for an alternative.
Cobblers.
The UK has many alternative parties ( 3 far right parties to start with ) yet the electorate In the main opts for the three mainstream parties when voting. Having said that, make that two main stream partes... The Lib Dems are finished.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Christopher Tappin
oscar;1386108 wrote: Cobblers.
The UK has many alternative parties ( 3 far right parties to start with ) yet the electorate In the main opts for the three mainstream parties when voting. Having said that, make that two main stream partes... The Lib Dems are finished.
Actually they don't. Neither of the two main parties rarely gets more than a third of the overall vote. Out first past the post system effectively renders any real alternative impossible to achieve. PR was imposed om Germany after ww2 because it prevents a small party like the nazis getting an unbalanced number of seats as happens with the fist past the post system. The tories are busy gerrymandering even as we speak in order to really bugger uopm the lib dems. I expect you know that as well a I do. Labour thought it would work against the SNP in Scotland but they cocked it up by pissing off the electorate and there is an alternative to the tories, scots tories love PR they would have no seats otherwise.
Incredibly I agree with you, the lib dems are finished
The UK has many alternative parties ( 3 far right parties to start with ) yet the electorate In the main opts for the three mainstream parties when voting. Having said that, make that two main stream partes... The Lib Dems are finished.
Actually they don't. Neither of the two main parties rarely gets more than a third of the overall vote. Out first past the post system effectively renders any real alternative impossible to achieve. PR was imposed om Germany after ww2 because it prevents a small party like the nazis getting an unbalanced number of seats as happens with the fist past the post system. The tories are busy gerrymandering even as we speak in order to really bugger uopm the lib dems. I expect you know that as well a I do. Labour thought it would work against the SNP in Scotland but they cocked it up by pissing off the electorate and there is an alternative to the tories, scots tories love PR they would have no seats otherwise.
Incredibly I agree with you, the lib dems are finished
Christopher Tappin
Shoddy bloody country.
BBC News - Extradited Briton Chris Tappin denied bail in US
BBC News - Extradited Briton Chris Tappin denied bail in US
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Christopher Tappin
spot;1386722 wrote: Shoddy bloody country.
BBC News - Extradited Briton Chris Tappin denied bail in US
Have you ever been grabbed by the Fuzz Spot ?
BBC News - Extradited Briton Chris Tappin denied bail in US
Have you ever been grabbed by the Fuzz Spot ?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Christopher Tappin
oscar;1386727 wrote: Have you ever been grabbed by the Fuzz Spot ?
I think he's old enough to be past the fuzz stage..
I think he's old enough to be past the fuzz stage..
Christopher Tappin
So a foreign citizen that voluntarily turned up to be extradited to a foreign country is a flight risk? If he was he would have disappeared in the UK. You do have to wonder at the intelligence of American judges it seems you are guilty if arrested and charged the evidence doesn't matter and all is for the best in the best of all countries. I wonder why he didn't appeal to the European court of human rights the whole point of which is to give you an appeal when your own government has it in for you.