If Not the Creation Myth or Evolution ... What?

Post by **jones jones** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:34 am

For those of us who accept neither the "creation myth" nor Darwin's Theory Of Evolution, what remains? To me a simple belief; mankind is not indigenous to earth but arrived here eons ago from another galaxy, planet or planets.

The average earthling limits their universe to what they can see, hear and feel, so how many vibrations in the cosmos which may well be a communication from extra-terrestrials, pass by our limited senses? We are conditioned from birth to out plane, our tiny comfort zone and we scoff at anything beyond our understanding.

But who on planet earth can say with certainty that an entire alternate universe does not exist in another dimension on another planet? And who can say that birth and death are not simply crossing from one dimension to the other?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:31 am

Who can say booga booga bum bum? I bet more can say that than can say with any certainty that an entire alternate universe does not exist in another dimension on another planet? And who can say that birth and death are not simply crossing from one dimension to the other?

A few million religious followers who would happily burn you at the stake for not agreeing with them.

On a more serious note you're not a Scientologist are you? I can never understand why seemingly intelligent people can be taken in by such nonsense.

Post by **jones jones** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:46 am

"On a more serious note you're not a Scientologist are you? I can never understand why seemingly intelligent people can be taken in by such nonsense."

No I'm not a member of The Church of Scientology. You are saying that the notion that planets other than earth can be inhabitated by intelligent life as well as the possibility of alternate dimensions is nonsense?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:33 am

No I find Scientology to be nonsense, especially when it's founder made no secret of his intention to invent a new religion I find it surprising anyone actually believes in it.

I do not find the notion that other planets may harbour intelligent life to be nonsense as to the possibility of alternate dimensions I have an open mind.

Take past lives and the apparent evidence that people can be taken back to a previous time when they have lived. Why not future lives as well? I have come across research that argues future lives being experienced under hypnosis are possible I am just very sceptical about it. Soothsayers only ever predict anything after the event.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:59 am

jones jones;1377235 wrote: For those of us who accept neither the "creation myth" nor Darwin's Theory Of Evolution, What is it exactly you think Darwin claimed?

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:06 am

I think it is a matter of space. Right now I'm in this space. What space I may or may not inhabit later will be different. I just don't know what the difference will be.

Post by **jones jones** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:23 am

Ahso!;1377252 wrote: What is it exactly you think Darwin claimed?

Basically that man evolved from the ape.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:36 am

jones jones;1377261 wrote: Basically that man evolved from the ape.Well, no. The Homo Sapien (man) is an entirely separate species from the Ape, though there's a common ancestor somewhere. Darwin observed how life changed slowly over time (evolved). Darwin's theory does not address where or how life originated.

Post by **jones jones** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:45 am

Ahso!;1377265 wrote: Well, no. The Homo Sapien (man) is an entirely separate species from the Ape, though there's a common ancestor somewhere. Darwin observed how life changed slowly over time (evolved). Darwin's theory does not address where or how life originated.

An international team, led by Juli Peretó of the Cavanilles Institute in Valencia, now refutes that idea and shows that the British naturalist did explain in other documents how our first ancestors could have come into being.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:28 pm

jones jones;1377268 wrote: An international team, led by Juli Peretó of the Cavanilles Institute in Valencia, now refutes that idea and shows that the British naturalist did explain in other documents how our first ancestors could have come into being.How much time have you spent attempting to understand Evolutionary Theory By Means Of Natural Selection, JJ?

Summarize in your own words what Pereto has stated, please.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:44 pm

jones jones;1377235 wrote: For those of us who accept neither the "creation myth" nor Darwin's Theory Of Evolution, what remains? To me a simple belief; mankind is not indigenous to earth but arrived here eons ago from another galaxy, planet or planets.

I can see two possible theories here but do not know which you are proposing.

Either you are suggesting the literal meaning of your words, that Man and only man came from off planet or the more general life seeded this plant from an external source.

The latter is supportable but the former has many difficulties. Start with the degree of conformity with other lifeforms on the Earth - we share our bone structure with almost all of the other mammals including those that would appear to be totally unlike us such as whales, our body chemistry is indistinguishable from other lifeforms and a very large percentage of our chromosomes are identical.

To reconcile these similarities with Man having formed in an alien environment and only reaching the Earth when fully formed is, I think, impossible. You cannot call upon common roots or even convergent evolution - you are proposing that life formed independently in two different environments and adopted identical forms. Given the billions of possible routes that life could have taken such a degree of similarity is beyond belief.

Another possible suggestion is that a common creator was responsible for both lifeforms but to what end? Occam's razor suggests that it would be a unnecessary complication which would be difficult to justify.

OK, how close do I come to your thinking

Post by **spot** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:25 pm

eons ago from another galaxy... Two questions.

1. How long's an eon?

2. Are you seriously suggesting some form of conscious life has transferred into this galaxy from another? Have you any accurate notion of how much distance separates this galaxy from its nearest neighbour?

xyz · Post by **xyz** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:01 pm

jones jones;1377235 wrote: For those of us who accept neither the "creation myth" nor Darwin's Theory Of Evolution, what remains?

The Christian doesn't care what you believe about how we got here. The scientist doesn't, either, unless you want a job in science.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:09 pm

xyz;1377316 wrote: The Christian doesn't care what you believe about how we got here. The scientist doesn't, either, unless you want a job in science.There are lots of creation believing scientists, including some in the field of biology.

Post by **jones jones** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:15 am

Good Day Gentleman ... I apologise for the delay in replying to your replies to my thread. When I tried yesterday I got a "server error" each time I clicked "submit reply."

I have decided to reply to Ahso, Bryn Mawr and Spot in one post to save time and also so that all our opinions are slotted snugly together one below the other.

Ahso replied:" How much time have you spent attempting to understand Evolutionary Theory By Means Of Natural Selection, JJ?" and "Summarize in your own words what Pereto has stated, please."

I have spent as much time attempting to understand it as I could manage before getting totally bored out of my skull. Unlike the bible, which I have read from cover to cover and which at least has some interesting bits in it, Evolutionary Theory by Means of etc etc doesn’t pop my cork. As far as Professor Pereto is concerned I have read nothing at all of his statement and merely quoted him. Please read on to the end of this post to find out why.

Bryn Mawr replied: “I can see two possible theories here but do not know which you are proposing. Either you are suggesting the literal meaning of your words, that Man and only man came from off planet or the more general life seeded this plant from an external source.

The latter is supportable but the former has many difficulties. Start with the degree of conformity with other lifeforms on the Earth - we share our bone structure with almost all of the other mammals including those that would appear to be totally unlike us such as whales, our body chemistry is indistinguishable from other lifeforms and a very large percentage of our chromosomes are identical.

To reconcile these similarities with Man having formed in an alien environment and only reaching the Earth when fully formed is, I think, impossible. You cannot call upon common roots or even convergent evolution - you are proposing that life formed independently in two different environments and adopted identical forms. Given the billions of possible routes that life could have taken such a degree of similarity is beyond belief.

Another possible suggestion is that a common creator was responsible for both lifeforms but to what end? Occam's razor suggests that it would be a unnecessary complication which would be difficult to justify.

OK, how close do I come to your thinking? “

I speak of race that could possibly have been around maybe a million years or more. A race far, far more intelligent then you or I could possibly imagine. A race capable of cloning not only a human but flora and fauna, a race capable of replicating everything found on their own planet in another world. I can grasp such a possibility quite easily. You obviously cannot. Take from this what you want but read through to the end of this thread to find out more.

Spot replied: … eons ago from another galaxy... Two questions.

1. How long's an eon?

2. Are you seriously suggesting some form of conscious life has transferred into this galaxy from another? Have you any accurate notion of how much distance separates this galaxy from its nearest neighbour?

1. To which eon are you referring? There are four eons in the Earth's history. The Hadean Eon lasted about 0.7 billion years, the Archaistic Eon lasted about 1.8 billion years, the Protrusion Eon lasted about 1.5 billion years and the Paleozoic Eon (which is the present eon) has lasted about 0.6 billion years. My own guess would be that an eon is between 40 million to 600 million years.

2. I certainly am and yes I do have an accurate notion.

You see you have to start thinking outside the paradigm box Spot. What about light speed, wormholes, star gates? You believe that because they are not yet a reality on earth, they are impossible dreams?

For too long the majority of modern 21st century earthlings have mistakenly and arrogantly believed and still do believe that we are the only people in the universe. They believe that ten, twenty and even thirty thousand years ago most of mankind was an ignorant savage, incapable of doing anything more intelligent than grunting.

Astronomers study million year old history, so how dare they speak for the current cosmos? How can they conceive of what is possible and ridicule extra-terrestrial life?

Now, having replied to each of you individually and I know you are gonna call it a cop out, but I am now done with this thread. You see I post a thread when I have something on my mind that I want to commit to writing so that I can be done with it. I could post it in a gazillion other places on the internet but I choose to post here. (A gazillion is 7,000,000 Spot.)

I know you guys love to debate but I do not, nor do I enjoy forum ping-pong. I have no more to offer this thread. I am bored with this thread … I get bored very easily and very quickly. Thank you.

Post by **jones jones** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:19 am

xyz;1377316 wrote: The Christian doesn't care what you believe about how we got here. The scientist doesn't, either, unless you want a job in science.

Well that's right unchristian of the christian then xyz. I thought that christians were among the most caringest folk on the planet! I wonder if il Papa knows about this total lack of caring on the part of the christians?

Post by **spot** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:35 am

jones jones;1377354 wrote: You see you have to start thinking outside the paradigm box Spot.I prefer to speculate about the real world. What you're doing seems utterly pointless.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:13 pm

Now, having replied to each of you individually and I know you are gonna call it a cop out, but I am now done with this thread. You see I post a thread when I have something on my mind that I want to commit to writing so that I can be done with it. I could post it in a gazillion other places on the internet but I choose to post here. (A gazillion is 7,000,000 Spot.)

I know you guys love to debate but I do not, nor do I enjoy forum ping-pong. I have no more to offer this thread. I am bored with this thread … I get bored very easily and very quickly. Thank you.

Note to self, don't bother reading jones jones threads in future.

Post by **jones jones** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:34 pm

gmc;1377388 wrote: Note to self, don't bother reading jones jones threads in future.

You mean you used to actually read my threads? I am so flattered! Far out man ..

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:43 pm

jones jones;1377354 wrote:

Bryn Mawr replied: “I can see two possible theories here but do not know which you are proposing. Either you are suggesting the literal meaning of your words, that Man and only man came from off planet or the more general life seeded this plant from an external source.

The latter is supportable but the former has many difficulties.

I speak of race that could possibly have been around maybe a million years or more. A race far, far more intelligent then you or I could possibly imagine. A race capable of cloning not only a human but flora and fauna, a race capable of replicating everything found on their own planet in another world. I can grasp such a possibility quite easily. You obviously cannot. Take from this what you want but read through to the end of this thread to find out more.

Not a problem, a barren Earth terraformed and seeded by an alien race is at least a defensible starting position - very possible that the resultant colony would die back and forget its origins in the interregnum. As unlikely as the proposition may appear I can offer no evidence that it is false.

Post by **spot** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:55 pm

Bryn Mawr;1377395 wrote: Not a problem, a barren Earth terraformed and seeded by an alien race is at least a defensible starting position - very possible that the resultant colony would die back and forget its origins in the interregnum. As unlikely as the proposition may appear I can offer no evidence that it is false.

Though mind you, they could have done it last Monday. It seems no different on the likelihood stakes.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:52 pm

I thought if a person states that they reject something, in this instance Evolutionary Theory, they know what it is they're rejecting. That is obviously not the case with you, JJ.

Ya can't fix stupid, can ya.

Post by **jones jones** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:59 am

spot;1377400 wrote: Though mind you, they could have done it last Monday. It seems no different on the likelihood stakes.

You English ... you never cease to amaze me. You cannot or will not see the broader picture. If any theory put forward does not gell with your way of thinking, then you pour scorn on any such thoery. I mean like duh, if its Tuesday it must be Belgium kinda syndrome.

You have been on your tiny island from day one, conquering and then losing your Empire ... fighting your 19th/20th century wars and getting your asses kicked, then being bailed out by the USA, without whose help you would now be a province of Nazi Germany.

So free your mind Spot and like I said yesterday, get out the box into the 21st century.

There is a whole new world out there in the cosmos!

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:01 pm

What you offer is not a theory, it's a fantasy.

Post by **jones jones** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:11 pm

Ahso!;1377408 wrote: I thought if a person states that they reject something, in this instance Evolutionary Theory, they know what it is they're rejecting. That is obviously not the case with you, JJ.

Ya can't fix stupid, can ya.

Wow Professor Ahso ... Now if I was a vindictive kinda guy, which I am not and if I was a like very insecure dude, which I am not, I might take offence & even report you for this post. Are you really, actually and intentionally calling me, moi, Jj stoopid? Nah. you wouldn't do that, would you? I know I would nevva evva insult a fellow Forum Garden member like that. Tell me I am wrong and so restore my faith!

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:15 pm

I thought you were done with this thread.

Post by **jones jones** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:24 pm

Ahso!;1377460 wrote: What you offer is not a theory, it's a fantasy.

Ones man's fantasy is another man's reality Professor!

Post by **jones jones** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:27 pm

Ahso!;1377466 wrote: I thought you were done with this thread.

Now that is what makes me so fascinating and so popular ... my unpredictability! I say one thing cos I am bored and "shazammy" next minute I'm nor bored and I decide to take up the cudgels again.

Don't tell me you don't enjoy crossing swords with me Professor, cos I know you do. I am good for FG and everyone who is anyone knows it, or should by now know it!

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:32 pm

jones jones;1377468 wrote: Ones man's fantasy is another man's reality Professor!So long as you cease referring to your fantasy as a theory.

Post by **spot** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:35 pm

jones jones;1377459 wrote: You English ... you never cease to amaze me. You cannot or will not see the broader picture.

Last Thursdayism - RationalWiki

It's a long-established bit of mockery. I particularly refer you to the quote on that page from 1921:There is no logical impossibility in the hypothesis that the world sprang into being five minutes ago, exactly as it then was, with a population that "remembered" a wholly unreal past. There is no logically necessary connection between events at different times; therefore nothing that is happening now or will happen in the future can disprove the hypothesis that the world began five minutes ago. ”

—Bertrand Russell, The Analysis of Mind, 1921, pp. 159–60)

Post by **jones jones** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:42 pm

Ahso!;1377471 wrote: So long as you cease referring to your fantasy as a theory.

But I don't see it as a fantasy. Can you prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that I am wrong and that which I have proposed is indeed fantasy? I know that I cannot do so in respect to either the creation myth or the evolution theory.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:49 pm

jones jones;1377476 wrote: But I don't see it as a fantasy. Can you prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that I am wrong and that which I have proposed is indeed fantasy? I know that I cannot do so in respect to either the creation myth or the evolution theory.You know nothing about Evolutionary Theory, you should leave it out of your references, it causes your very loose logic to appear stupid. You're better off sticking with subjects you can converse on, that's all I'm saying. All your "I'm bored with that" BS when asked to defend or clarify what you've written makes you appear infantile-minded.

Post by **jones jones** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:50 pm

spot;1377472 wrote: Last Thursdayism - RationalWiki

It's a long-established bit of mockery. I particularly refer you to the quote on that page from 1921:There is no logical impossibility in the hypothesis that the world sprang into being five minutes ago, exactly as it then was, with a population that "remembered" a wholly unreal past. There is no logically necessary connection between events at different times; therefore nothing that is happening now or will happen in the future can disprove the hypothesis that the world began five minutes ago. ”

—Bertrand Russell, The Analysis of Mind, 1921, pp. 159–60)

Jeeze Spot ... I really really really hate to say this but ... I totally agree with what you have posted here. I think it must be the very first time in four years. I am so ashamed of myself!

Its a bit like "solipsism" I think

Post by **jones jones** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:14 pm

Ahso!;1377477 wrote: You know nothing about Evolutionary Theory, you should leave it out of your references, it causes your very loose logic to appear stupid. You're better off sticking with subjects you can converse on, that's all I'm saying. All your "I'm bored with that" BS when asked to defend or clarify what you've written makes you appear infantile-minded.

Oooooh! We have now progressed from stupid to appear stupid to BS to infantile-minded. Now if I wasn't such an easy going lovable type I might just take offence. :yh_rotfl

theia · Post by **theia** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:47 pm

spot;1377472 wrote: Last Thursdayism - RationalWiki

It's a long-established bit of mockery. I particularly refer you to the quote on that page from 1921:There is no logical impossibility in the hypothesis that the world sprang into being five minutes ago, exactly as it then was, with a population that "remembered" a wholly unreal past. There is no logically necessary connection between events at different times; therefore nothing that is happening now or will happen in the future can disprove the hypothesis that the world began five minutes ago. ”

—Bertrand Russell, The Analysis of Mind, 1921, pp. 159–60)

I like that quote!

Post by **spot** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:48 pm

jones jones;1377478 wrote: Jeeze Spot ... I really really really hate to say this but ... I totally agree with what you have posted here. I think it must be the very first time in four years. I am so ashamed of myself!

Its a bit like "solipsism" I think
The fact that it's a logical possibility has no effect whatever on the likelihood of it being a meaningful description of the real world.

Atlynox · Post by **Atlynox** » Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:52 pm

The best option is waiting for the Higgs-particle to be found.

If there is a Higgs-particle (?) than there is structure in the universe. After the quantum weirdness there is still order.

So Einstein was right when he said God doesn't play with dice.

And for the other side: "They will never find the Higgs-particle"!

So the uncertainty principle will remain. Is there a higher cause? 50/50.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:25 pm

jones jones;1377235 wrote: For those of us who accept neither the "creation myth" nor Darwin's Theory Of Evolution, what remains? To me a simple belief; mankind is not indigenous to earth but arrived here eons ago from another galaxy, planet or planets.

The average earthling limits their universe to what they can see, hear and feel, so how many vibrations in the cosmos which may well be a communication from extra-terrestrials, pass by our limited senses? We are conditioned from birth to out plane, our tiny comfort zone and we scoff at anything beyond our understanding.

But who on planet earth can say with certainty that an entire alternate universe does not exist in another dimension on another planet? And who can say that birth and death are not simply crossing from one dimension to the other?

What a cop out. So, if your alien origins exist... where did they come from? You're still stuck with the same question no matter how many aliens you want to have exist.

Post by **jones jones** » Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:23 am

koan;1377552 wrote: What a cop out. So, if your alien origins exist... where did they come from? You're still stuck with the same question no matter how many aliens you want to have exist.

Miz Koan ... If you'd been anyone other than Spot's clone trying like him to place me in a bad light, I would be prepared to spar with you. As it is I have memories from way back when that are not pleasant and you are right up there amongst them. So I would prefer not ever again interact with you. I will retire lest I open myself up to an infraction or worse.

You take care now and have an awesome day!

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:45 am

Here you go JJ. A little ammunition for you.

NASA Telescope Confirms Alien Planet in Habitable Zone - Yahoo! News

Post by **jones jones** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:04 am

YZGI;1377822 wrote: Here you go JJ. A little ammunition for you.

NASA Telescope Confirms Alien Planet in Habitable Zone - Yahoo! News

Thanx YZ but they a bit behind times!