How Many Here Are For the death Penalty?

john8pies · Post by **john8pies** » Wed May 11, 2005 7:00 am

I AGREE WITH YOU! Now what was that again about you say `peace` a lot?

hotsauce · Post by **hotsauce** » Wed May 11, 2005 7:01 am

doesn't everyone on death row say their innocence is in question?

I give the death penalty a thumbs up!

devist8me · Post by **devist8me** » Wed May 11, 2005 7:23 am

I think if someone is found guilty, they should be shot on spot. None of this sitting in prison BS for years, allowing my tax dollars to provide for them.

Peg · Post by **Peg** » Wed May 11, 2005 7:28 am

devist8me wrote: I think if someone is found guilty, they should be shot on spot. None of this sitting in prison BS for years, allowing my tax dollars to provide for them.

I sooo agree with you. With DNA testing now, I think the chances of an innocent person being convicted have really decreased.

pantsonfire321@aol.com · Wed May 11, 2005 7:33 am

Im all in favour of the death penalty i just wish we had it here in the UK.sarah janexx

Agnes · Post by **Agnes** » Wed May 11, 2005 10:12 am

To some degree people should be executed for certain crimes. Too many are on "death row" just existing? What good is the death penalty when no-one has been put down for so long? I'm not sure who & when the last execution took place in this country? If more often criminals were put down, maybe others would not commit crimes against people? Too much is going on lately with children, people missing, etc.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Wed May 11, 2005 10:20 am

here are just four reasons i believe in the death penalty~~~david westerfield. danny rolling. richard allen davis. john couey.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Wed May 11, 2005 5:42 pm

I'm unconditionally opposed to this government holding the power to murder citizens. The death penalty will eventually be abolished. We have to wait for the RedStates to civilize themselves first.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Wed May 11, 2005 6:20 pm

David813 wrote: I'm unconditionally opposed to this government holding the power to murder citizens. The death penalty will eventually be abolished. We have to wait for the RedStates to civilize themselves first.
you rather specifically stated "[...]opposed to this government holding the power to murder citizens" - emphasis mine. this would tend to imply that you would not be opposed to a different or other government holding the power to murder citizens.

were you in fact implying that? if so, what government would you prefer to have the power to murder citizens?

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Wed May 11, 2005 6:23 pm

anastrophe wrote: you rather specifically stated "[...]opposed to this government holding the power to murder citizens" - emphasis mine. this would tend to imply that you would not be opposed to a different or other government holding the power to murder citizens.

were you in fact implying that? if so, what government would you prefer to have the power to murder citizens?
[bearing in mind of course that _murder_ is the unlawful taking of innocent life. when the state executes a criminal it is a state execution, it is not murder, by definition]

[noting also that the rate of convicted criminals on death row being set free due to exculpatory DNA evidence pretty strongly suggests that at least until the system is less prone to these irretrievable errors, there should be a moratorium on executions, in my opinion]

David813 · Post by **David813** » Wed May 11, 2005 6:27 pm

anastrophe wrote: you rather specifically stated "[...]opposed to this government holding the power to murder citizens" - emphasis mine. this would tend to imply that you would not be opposed to a different or other government holding the power to murder citizens.

were you in fact implying that? if so, what government would you prefer to have the power to murder citizens?I am opposed to the death penalty. I would feel differently if we were in the midst of setting up the Revolutionary government, in an effort to 'uproot' enemies. That's a different thread I think but I took your bait and here's your fish!!!

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Wed May 11, 2005 6:28 pm

anastrophe wrote:

[noting also that the rate of convicted criminals on death row being set free due to exculpatory DNA evidence pretty strongly suggests that at least until the system is less prone to these irretrievable errors, there should be a moratorium on executions, in my opinion]
I would agree somewhat about a moratorium , unless they were already convicted on SOLID dna evidence.

Then CARRY on

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed May 11, 2005 6:30 pm

In the US

A total of 69 people have been released from death row since 1973 after evidence of their innocence emerged. Twenty-one condemned inmates have been released since 1993, including seven from the state of Illinois alone. Many of these cases were discovered not because of the normal appeals process, but rather as a result of new scientific techniques, investigations by journalists, and the dedicated work of expert attorneys, not available to the typical death row inmate.

This does not include people executed already and later found innocent.

Lots of info at this site.

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Wed May 11, 2005 6:30 pm

David813 wrote: That's a different thread I think but I took your bait and here's your fish!!!
Filleted I might add

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Wed May 11, 2005 6:30 pm

David813 wrote: I am opposed to the death penalty. I would feel differently if we were in the midst of setting up the Revolutionary government, in an effort to 'uproot' enemies. That's a different thread I think but I took your bait and here's your fish!!!
so who among the citizenry would be meat for this grinder? those who disagree with it? state sponsored killing of those who have committed only 'thought crimes'?

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Wed May 11, 2005 6:35 pm

anastrophe wrote: so who among the citizenry would be meat for this grinder? those who disagree with it? state sponsored killing of those who have committed only 'thought crimes'?
Oh I would venture to think david and his revolutionist would like to see GW, Rumsfeld, DeLay, Cheney right up front and center when the trigger was pulled..........

Just a venture now.

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Wed May 11, 2005 8:56 pm

LADYCOP,

I'm for the death penalty as well, if they are 100% guilty so be it DEATH.

I will add a few name to the list: Scott Peterson, Mark Hacking, OJ (who should be on death row. )

here are just four reasons i believe in the death penalty~~~david westerfield. danny rolling. richard allen davis. john couey.

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Wed May 11, 2005 10:01 pm

I am pro death penalty. These people have committed crimes against humanity and I do not want my tax dollars supporting their sorry butts while they make money off of book deals while serving life sentences. I think our appeals process ferrets out most innocents - or at least gives enough time for to make a reasonable doubt case. I feel for the few who slip through the cracks but that does not prevent me from supporting the death penalty in capital crimes.

smithy87 · Post by **smithy87** » Thu May 12, 2005 5:43 am

I am 100% in agreement with the death penalty to those convicted with solid DNA evidence. But it shouldn't just stop at convicted murderers they should also get rid of convicted paedophiles.

The taxpayers get shafted for too much money to keep the scumbags in cushy hotels (oh sorry... I meant to say prison) :-5

The likes of Ian Huntley, Venables and Thompson, Peter Sutcliffe, Ian Brady and Myra Hindley should have all been got rid of and I'm sure there's many more I could mention. With all the commotion going on now about Ian Brady being on his last legs and his refusal to eat food. So what? Leave him in a room to starve to death.

Without going off the subject too much, last year, a man was kicked to death in front of his family outside a restaraunt over an argument about his wife's handbag. This happened about 5mins down the road from me. Three youths were sent to prison for VIOLENT DISORDER not murder. They have served 3 months of an 18 month sentence and are soon to be released on the tag system.

The man's brother has vowed to 'sort out' all 3 murderers upon their release. Naturally you can understand his feelings - he may do it he may not.

My point is, unless the justice system gets to grip with criminals and issues sentences that fit the crime there will be a rise in vigilantes. People will take the law into their own hands because they are not protected from these scrotes (slang for sh*tbags)

There is no deterrent these days and the world is becoming a scary place

kmhowe72 · Post by **kmhowe72** » Thu May 12, 2005 3:57 pm

Are we talking about Micheal ross. because I can tell you I am living right in the heart of it. ok, I don't want anyone trying to track me down. But I live here , and I will tell you. The police preasents has hit a all time high. I was passing the mall this morning and I saw a news truck from nieghboring state. and I said why to myself. Then I saw another one. That is highly unsaul here. Except for the time that roxanne iceskating person got druck and had court here, Their hasn't been this much press.

Anyway I saw protester and I took a drive past the prision and it was holy choas. A very heavy presents indeed.

But this is how I look at it. Anybody who murders a Human being is not in their right mind anyway. But if they are really sick like that mentally retarded man in texas, those people shouldn't be excuted. That was HORRIBLE.

Jerry Hobbs you know he might have some problems, but when their is cold hard evidence of something henice like that then maybe it should apply their. He might be retatarded. Otheir then that he should get the chair or whatever they do there. Now Scott Peterson I would be hard press to give him the death Penalty because there was NO DIRECT evidence. And I wouldn't want to be proven later that I was wrong. Micheal Ross I don't know enough to make that judgement. I do know that he wants it, then I guess he is going to get. Unless a supreme Miracle happens Like Gov. M. Jodi Rell Pardens him, there no Miricle. And it will snow you know where like blizzard first, before that happens.

On lighter note, I told my husband If see dan Ambrams or some hot shot news man her. I will ask for autogragh,.

PS Just heared there is some moratium on the death penalty ILlnois , guess Jerry Hobbs is not going to be exucated. And like I said if anyone deserve it , it's him. :-5

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Thu May 12, 2005 4:12 pm

kmhowe72 wrote: Are we talking about Micheal ross.

J:-5 kmhowe72:

Glad you brought him up. I was just looking into his scheduled execution early Fri. morning.....

I hope there are no stays or such.

He is one that deserves all he gets and more........

Ross awaits death in New England's first execution in 45 years

Associated Press

Published May 12 2005

SOMERS, Conn. -- A serial killer who struggled to hasten his own death - and was forced to prove he wasn't out of his mind - awaited lethal injection early Friday in New England's first execution in 45 years.

STORY

koan · Post by **koan** » Thu May 12, 2005 7:10 pm

"From this day forward, I no longer shall tinker with the machinery of death. For more than 20 years I have endeavored--indeed, I have struggled--along with a majority of this Court, to develop procedural and substantive rules that would lend more than the mere appearance of fairness to the death penalty endeavor. Rather than continue to coddle the Court's delusion that the desired level of fairness has been achieved and the need for regulation eviscerated, I feel morally and intellectually obligated to concede that the death penalty experiment has failed."

--Harry Blackmun, retired Supreme Court Justice, 1994

"Take it from someone who has spent a career in Federal and state law enforcement, enacting the death penalty . . . would be a grave mistake. Prosecutors must reveal the dirty little secret they too often share only among themselves: The death penalty actually hinders the fight against crime."

--Robert M. Morgenthau, District Attorney, Manhattan, NY, 1995

Just a couple of thoughts from people with opinions based on experience.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Fri May 13, 2005 12:22 am

..........SOMERS, Connecticut (AP) -- A serial killer who struggled to hasten his own death -- and was forced to prove he wasn't out of his mind -- was put to death early Friday in New England's first execution in 45 years. Michael Ross

Agnes · Post by **Agnes** » Fri May 13, 2005 5:52 am

Micheal Ross is dead. He stalked me 20Plus years ago and buried a woman behind my house? I rode the bus with him to school and remember him as a problem child.

kmhowe72 · Post by **kmhowe72** » Fri May 13, 2005 7:28 am

No Kdding. I was right in the middle of it. My town was under seige from reporters.Micheal Ross did get excutated this morning.

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Fri May 13, 2005 8:13 am

LOL. 'scrotes" has to be short for "scrotums" which would be ballbags, not s**tbags...but I get your meaning. :wah:

I'm pretty divided on this issue, I don't believe in killing, but I also think it's a crime to use thousands of my hard-earned dollars to keep a mad dog alive.

We put rabid animals to death, so why not rabid humans?

I think the best bet is some kind of "brain wipe". Use chemicals to destroy the old personality and write a new one. That way society doesn't lose a valuable member.

Agnes · Post by **Agnes** » Fri May 13, 2005 12:46 pm

kmhowe72 wrote: No Kdding. I was right in the middle of it. My town was under seige from reporters.Micheal Ross did get excutated this morning.

what town are you from, he killed people in other states as well as connecticut. i can still see his glasses when he wipped his car around to get a look at me?

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Fri May 13, 2005 1:41 pm

terrorists,rapers and child abusers. Hang them

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Fri May 13, 2005 1:52 pm

capt_buzzard wrote: terrorists,rapers and child abusers. Hang them
Kill 'em all and let God sort them out, eh Buzz? I agree with that sentiment wholeheartedly.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Fri May 13, 2005 1:59 pm

BabyRider wrote: Kill 'em all and let God sort them out, eh Buzz? I agree with that sentiment wholeheartedly. an eye for an eye

Post by **spot** » Fri May 13, 2005 3:54 pm

Well, Dana, let me have a try at this, since I have a view and various of the replies here are, in my opinion, somewhat emotional and vituperative. You will all, I hope, excuse me if I seem either boring or lost for words, but I've never tried to express this before.

At heart, the question revolves around society and the individual.

No individual has an obligatory contract with society unless both he and society have agreed one. The default state of affairs is that if an individual refuses to either acknowledge or fulfill his obligations toward society, he is an outlaw and society owes no duty toward him in terms of, for example, protection, education, social or health care. Effectively, if the individual declares himself at war with society, he is exercising his right to do so. Society in turn has no power over him save tyrannical power, no duty toward him, and might reasonably wish to expel him from its borders.

If an individual accepts the social contract, even by implication in making use of that protection, education, social or health care, then society has those obligations toward him in exchange for his support and his compliance with society's rules.

In neither case, though, is society allowed (because it is a civil society, and not tyrannical) to abuse or damage the individual, if that is a part of the civil contract. The simple reason for this is the disparity in size and power between them. Society is powerful, and it is therefore incumbent on it to exercise all possible restraint. All doubt has to be resolved in favor of the individual.

Now, if the civil contract is that society may kill the individual who has broken the contract in specified ways, then the death penalty is a consequence agreed to beforehand by the individual and is a known consequence of his actions.

Anyone who lives voluntarily under a regime that can declare his life forfeit in agreed circumstances, and who has a choice in living there and not elsewhere under different rules, and who has invoked the benefits of that society prior to so breaking that society's rules, is subject to the specified penalty. If that is death, then it is death.

Assuming all the foregoing to be reasonable, I conclude:

First, society has an absolute duty to impartially apply its penalties and benefits.

Second, society has an absolute duty to be accurate in its assessment of guilt before it can apply sanctions.

Third, society has to declare the contract in a comprehensible manner before a sanction can be invoked.

On the basis that the United States of America has failed in all three of these categories, I believe it cannot impose sanctions on its citizens which are irreversible or incapable of restitution. I am against the death penalty until those three conditions are met.

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Fri May 13, 2005 4:13 pm

Oh come on Spots. What do you think our judicial system has done? It upholds the laws and sanctions that we - as Americans - have agreed to comply with - in an obligatory contract - by virtue of living in this country. I use the roads - I follow the laws governing the use of those roads or face the consequences. Get it? That was simple. Our constitution guarantees life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I would not be happy having someone else take my life - ergo - that individual goes to the same place he put me. So move to a state that does not have a death penalty and commit murder.

koan · Post by **koan** » Fri May 13, 2005 4:23 pm

Am I on ignore here?

I posted info on the number of wrongfully convicted people on death row...those that have been proven so far and not including those wrongfully executed. I posted quotations from a judge and a DA that know how unjust and biased the death penalty decisions are in the US system to date. No response. Just a truckload of pitchfork waving, mob loving, it-could-never-happen-to-me, blinder wearing, rubberneckers vying for a front row seat at the hanging.

Shame. I've got more info but it almost seems like a wasted effort.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Fri May 13, 2005 4:26 pm

koan wrote: Am I on ignore here?

I posted info on the number of wrongfully convicted people on death row...those that have been proven so far and not including those wrongfully executed. I posted quotations from a judge and a DA that know how unjust and biased the death penalty decisions are in the US system to date. No response. Just a truckload of pitchfork waving, mob loving, it-could-never-happen-to-me, blinder wearing, rubberneckers vying for a front row seat at the hanging.

Shame. I've got more info but it almost seems like a wasted effort.You are always ok by me Mother Earth:-6

koan · Post by **koan** » Fri May 13, 2005 4:29 pm

capt_buzzard wrote: You are always ok by me Mother Earth:-6

Don't wreck my rant.

It was a good one.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Fri May 13, 2005 4:33 pm

koan wrote: Don't wreck my rant.

It was a good one.

:yh_dance and say Hello to Ken for me

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Fri May 13, 2005 4:38 pm

koan wrote: Am I on ignore here?

I posted info on the number of wrongfully convicted people on death row...those that have been proven so far and not including those wrongfully executed. I posted quotations from a judge and a DA that know how unjust and biased the death penalty decisions are in the US system to date. No response. Just a truckload of pitchfork waving, mob loving, it-could-never-happen-to-me, blinder wearing, rubberneckers vying for a front row seat at the hanging.

Shame. I've got more info but it almost seems like a wasted effort.

Hey Koan - ever known anyone to meet up with one of those murderers on death row? No? - that's because they are dead.

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Fri May 13, 2005 4:40 pm

koan wrote: Am I on ignore here?

I posted info on the number of wrongfully convicted people on death row...those that have been proven so far and not including those wrongfully executed. I posted quotations from a judge and a DA that know how unjust and biased the death penalty decisions are in the US system to date. No response. Just a truckload of pitchfork waving, mob loving, it-could-never-happen-to-me, blinder wearing, rubberneckers vying for a front row seat at the hanging.

Shame. I've got more info but it almost seems like a wasted effort.
koan I agree to some point as I said earlier. If they have dna evidence and a shut and closed case....Fry em extra crispy.

If there is only he said she said or convicted on substantial evidence with no confession then it needs to be looked at harder. Which is what the appeals courts do NOW.

koan · Post by **koan** » Fri May 13, 2005 4:42 pm

A number of people have met the people on death row, released from death row and executed on death row. There, presumably was a trial. Fair or not. Also, despite what some would have us believe, death row inmates are not things. They were people just like everyone else until they were sentenced then all possibility of identifying with them is artfully removed.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Fri May 13, 2005 4:55 pm

spot wrote:

No individual has an obligatory contract with society unless both he and society have agreed one. i've deleted the entirely of your post, save the opening line of your argument, since with this line your entire argument falls flat on its face. assuming you meant to write "[...]unless both he and society have agreed upon one", which is really about the only interpretation that makes sense, you've declared in this opening sentence a nonsensical, fictional state of affairs that does not obtain in any society.

all persons, save perhaps the rare infant abandoned and suckled by wolves, is born into a society. The infant has no contract with society, for obvious reasons. As one grows older, one learns the rather basic concepts - held across virtually all cultures and societies - of not unjustly depriving others of the fruits of their labors, not unjustly harming others physically or allowing harm to come to others by inaction, honesty, hard work, etc etc etc.. These are the things that make a society - absent these values held by the majority, you don't have a society.

The process of learning these basic concepts, and the implicit agreement to those concepts, forms the contract. no society that i'm aware of presents an infant with a written contract which they must sign stating 'you will not murder others. you will not kidnap others. you will not rape others'. nor even at any later point in life is such a contract presented, for the contract is a bond that is built mutually between the individual and society from birth, and exists absent explicit 'agreement' with it.

i do not need a contract with my country stating that i will not murder others. i was never taught, in fact, either by my parents or in school, that i should not murder others. the illicit, criminal taking of life was never an issue that needed to be spelled out as wrong, it was so obviously wrong that it never needed to be verbalized.

it is thus for the vast majority of those in any given society. we recognize that if someone hurts us, it is unpleasant, and understand thereby that hurting others is unpleasant for them. on that basis, 'normal' people need no further 'instruction' in these basic concepts of civility - as above, the contract is implicit and overwhelmingly obvious in nearly all day to day interaction with others.

if a person living within a society chooses, for example, to murder, or to rape, or to kidnap, they have made a *choice*. with extremely rare exception, the choice is cognitive - they know that what they are doing is wrong. one need not be presented with signs on every street corner stating "remember, don't murder other people" in order not to do so. whether that criminal made use of society's benefits, or somehow magically managed never to have learned the laws of the society within which he exists, is irrelevant. if a person murders another person, they have violated the social contract, no matter whether it was spelled out or not. in no society on earth that i'm aware of is murder considered socially acceptable. in few other societies is rape or kidnap considered socially acceptable. we can of course argue ad nauseaum of those cultures or circumstances where rape and murder have been 'allowed' through malignant neglect. but i'm not aware of any outside of war, conflict, pogrom, where within a culture these crimes are without sanction, for obvious reasons.

it matters not whether an individual 'agrees' with the social contract. in taking an innocent life, in raping someone, in kidnapping someone, it is irrelevant whether the perpetrator has agreed or disagreed with the social contract. their actions explicitly *deny* the victim their basic rights as a human. it is on the basis of the harm caused to the victim that sanctions are taken against the perpetrator. the perpetrator's opinion or philosophy regarding the social contract is irrelevant.

by harming another person the perpetrator has violated the contract the *victim* has with his or her society - that no person is to be criminally harmed by another. the perpetrator's claims to any contract of his or her own are irrelevant at that point.

Post by **spot** » Fri May 13, 2005 4:56 pm

nvalleyvee wrote: Our constitution guarantees life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I would not be happy having someone else take my life - ergo - that individual goes to the same place he put me.Actually, everything I wrote agrees with what you've written here. All I require is that your state comply with my three conditions.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Fri May 13, 2005 5:03 pm

koan wrote: Am I on ignore here?

nope.

I posted info on the number of wrongfully convicted people on death row...those that have been proven so far and not including those wrongfully executed. I posted quotations from a judge and a DA that know how unjust and biased the death penalty decisions are in the US system to date. No response. Just a truckload of pitchfork waving, mob loving, it-could-never-happen-to-me, blinder wearing, rubberneckers vying for a front row seat at the hanging.

Shame. I've got more info but it almost seems like a wasted effort.that's not really a fair assessment. the ebb and flow of topics means that differing opinions may overlap or come into conflict virtually at random. i presented my opinion similar to yours before you posted your numbers.

it is interesting that in the united states, the majority of people are in favor of the death penalty. even here in besottedly liberal california, the majority are in favor of the death penalty. only within the enclaves of the largest metropolitan centers does the majority cleave the other way.

many in other countries see that as a basic unsophistication, or worse barbarity. i disagree, but perhaps that's simply my natural defense of my country of birth.

koan · Post by **koan** » Fri May 13, 2005 5:03 pm

I read the post by Spot regarding 'contracts' with society and won't miss it now that it is gone. Once a person reaches the age of 18 when they can be tried as an adult they are old enough to move if they don't like the 'rules' of that society. By not leaving a state/country one chooses to accept the contract. Any other concept is absurd.

As far as the eye for an eye mentality goes...what good would we all be blind? That is the result of that theory in practice.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Fri May 13, 2005 5:07 pm

spot wrote: Actually, everything I wrote agrees with what you've written here. All I require is that your state comply with my three conditions.
and you are whom to make any demands upon our sovereign nation?

koan · Post by **koan** » Fri May 13, 2005 5:07 pm

anastrophe, when your post turned to indigo it made you seem almost...feminine. Almost. heehee.

I classified everyone under the rant so I would draw out the drowning members who did not support the DP and redirect to some of the arguement. Rather shifty of me, I know. It was a good rant though.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Fri May 13, 2005 5:10 pm

koan wrote: I read the post by Spot regarding 'contracts' with society and won't miss it now that it is gone. Lest the opening of my previous post be misconstrued, when i wrote "i've deleted the entirely of your post", i meant not that i had deleted spot's post, but that i had deleted the entirety of the post in quoting his post, save the first line.

i disagree with spot it seems on the majority of issues, but i don't delete posts simply because i don't agree with what they've said.