WTC Cross

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Aug 05, 2011 6:21 pm

Much has been made recently of the religious cross "found" in the debris at the WTC and so now Christians want it to be part of the spectacle that will replace the towers. An atheistic group is suing to prevent the cross from being placed at the site.

What's your opinion?

Mine is that it should not be part of the site because religion far too often gets to hijack events by having it's signature and symbols placed everywhere. Times are changing and religion is losing it's grip on society.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:46 am

It was there. Some of the people there took it as a source of inspiration just as some took the American flag there as a source of inspiration. It's factual. It's historical. It belongs.

It's truly sad that you're so phobic about Christianity. Were you against the building of the mosque near Ground Zero?

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 6:33 am

It is an artifact from the site, you can not be selective to exclude specific items based on personal opinion.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:47 am

What Is the problem ?

Is the United States not In the main a Christian country ?

You are building a Mosque there so why the horror about a Christian Cross ?

If you don't want religion brought Into the equation, why agree a Mosque ?

Scrat · Post by **Scrat** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:10 am

If it's an artifact that was there before 9/11 it gets to remain. As for the religious aspect of this it doesn't I'd just as soon leave it out or better yet make a ring for the religious fanatics to murder one another in. I'll shovel the sawdust myself.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:32 pm

chonsigirl;1364091 wrote: It is an artifact from the site, you can not be selective to exclude specific items based on personal opinion.It's a matter of opinion that has the cross as part of the site, isn't it?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:39 pm

Accountable;1364089 wrote: It was there. Some of the people there took it as a source of inspiration just as some took the American flag there as a source of inspiration. It's factual. It's historical. It belongs. There were a lot of "artifacts" left after the destruction, under your theory anything that has any inspirational value to anyone should stay, so we should have simply left the rubble alone in the first place.

Accountable;1364089 wrote: It's truly sad that you're so phobic about Christianity. Were you against the building of the mosque near Ground Zero?ad hominem

The Mosque is irrelevant to the issue.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 5:39 pm

Ahso!;1364128 wrote: It's a matter of opinion that has the cross as part of the site, isn't it?

Not at all. If it was jewelry, it was an individual's religious/social/cultural reason for having it. You are not looking at the whole picture, but only one artifact-that seems to upset you greatly, Ahso.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 6:09 pm

chonsigirl;1364180 wrote: Not at all. If it was jewelry, it was an individual's religious/social/cultural reason for having it. You are not looking at the whole picture, but only one artifact-that seems to upset you greatly, Ahso.It doesn't upset me in the least, it's a discussion and I'm playing the devil's advocate.

So then every artifact should be left at the site? And opinion plays no part in the cross' placement?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:29 pm

Ahso!;1364129 wrote: There were a lot of "artifacts" left after the destruction, under your theory anything that has any inspirational value to anyone should stay, so we should have simply left the rubble alone in the first place.
I said from the beginning that the buildings should have been rebuilt exactly to the original blueprints, with possibly a memorial of some type on the floors where the planes hit. Your one and only rationale to disallow the item was because it represents religion to you. I'm merely pointing out that that's weak in the extreme.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:24 pm

Accountable;1364193 wrote: I said from the beginning that the buildings should have been rebuilt exactly to the original blueprints, with possibly a memorial of some type on the floors where the planes hit. Your one and only rationale to disallow the item was because it represents religion to you. I'm merely pointing out that that's weak in the extreme.A cross such as the one we"re talking about represents religion to hundreds of millions of U.S. citizens and others around the globe. Most customs and rite of passage events Americans pass through have religious overtones to them, they're part of the American indoctrination system, I mean - culture.

You seriously cannot be surprised that an American flag and Christian cross are the two main artifacts at the site? 9/11 was an attack on free global trade and it's influence, which America represented most, it was not an attack on Christianity or Americans per se. The majority of those who died were collateral damage. But the religious sect in America has been worked up and feels the need to inject their xenophobia through claiming victimization to ensure the continuation of their religion.

We need to cease this religious competition and holy war mentality sooner or later so we may as well begin now.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:07 am

Ahso!;1364194 wrote: A cross such as the one we"re talking about represents religion to hundreds of millions of U.S. citizens and others around the globe. Most customs and rite of passage events Americans pass through have religious overtones to them, they're part of the American indoctrination system, I mean - culture.

You seriously cannot be surprised that an American flag and Christian cross are the two main artifacts at the site? 9/11 was an attack on free global trade and it's influence, which America represented most, it was not an attack on Christianity or Americans per se. The majority of those who died were collateral damage. But the religious sect in America has been worked up and feels the need to inject their xenophobia through claiming victimization to ensure the continuation of their religion.

We need to cease this religious competition and holy war mentality sooner or later so we may as well begin now. Good grief !!!

Any free society has the right to express It's religion when that religion Is In the main.

There Is no Holy war mentality, It Is all In your head.

In England, we have Mosque's In most cities. Are you saying that there should not be a Christian Church In the same street as a Mosque?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:26 am

Rather than being aghast at what I write and attempt to pick it apart why not simply offer an opinion about the subject?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:53 am

Ahso!;1364212 wrote: Rather than being aghast at what I write and attempt to pick it apart why not simply offer an opinion about the subject?
Hang on. You started the thread. When questions are put to you In accordance with the subject, you act Indignant and claim that what you write Is being picked apart.?

Why not simply answer the questions put to you which would then In turn offer up debate In which others can follow?

Scrat · Post by **Scrat** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:49 am

There Is no Holy war mentality, It Is all In your head.

There isn't? I think there certainly is, you just need to look under the surface. It's not obvious in most people but in some of the movers and shakers of this it is quite evident.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:53 am

Scrat;1364219 wrote: There isn't? I think there certainly is, you just need to look under the surface. It's not obvious in most people but in some of the movers and shakers of this it is quite evident.I think the percentage of Americans belonging to a religion is in the range of 90+ and of those I believe something like 76% claim a sect of Christianity as their religion. That's a lot.

A number of years ago I read Faces Of The Enemy, an excellent book on wars and religion's part in them. For anyone who may be interested;

Amazon.com: Faces of the Enemy: Reflections of the Hostile Imagination (9780062504678): Sam Keen: Books

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:05 am

Ahso!;1364194 wrote: A cross such as the one we"re talking about represents religion to hundreds of millions of U.S. citizens and others around the globe. Most customs and rite of passage events Americans pass through have religious overtones to them, they're part of the American indoctrination system, I mean - culture. Relevance?

Ahso!;1364194 wrote: You seriously cannot be surprised that an American flag and Christian cross are the two main artifacts at the site?I'm not. I never indicated otherwise. I don't recall reading that anyone was surprised. Where did you get the idea that anyone was surprised?

Ahso!;1364194 wrote: 9/11 was an attack on free global trade and it's influence, which America represented most, it was not an attack on Christianity or Americans per se. The majority of those who died were collateral damage. But the religious sect in America has been worked up and feels the need to inject their xenophobia through claiming victimization to ensure the continuation of their religion.

We need to cease this religious competition and holy war mentality sooner or later so we may as well begin now.
What are you so deathly afraid of? You claim it doesn't upset you; that you're merely playing devil's advocate. But I think it's clear that you are either in denial or lying. I think you're lying. You've been too consistent on this subject to be in denial.

I don't think you would have raised such a stink about any other artifact, regardless of size or symbolic significance. Care to deny that as well?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:12 am

Ahso!;1364225 wrote: I think the percentage of Americans belonging to a religion is in the range of 90+ and of those I believe something like 76% claim a sect of Christianity as their religion. That's a lot.

A number of years ago I read Faces Of The Enemy, an excellent book on wars and religion's part in them. For anyone who may be interested;

Amazon.com: Faces of the Enemy: Reflections of the Hostile Imagination (9780062504678): Sam Keen: BooksStatistics on Religion in America Report -- Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:25 am

Accountable;1364089 wrote: It was there. Some of the people there took it as a source of inspiration just as some took the American flag there as a source of inspiration. It's factual. It's historical. It belongs.

I agree. I have no problem with Christian monuments at disaster sites, although it is a bit unfair to all the other people of different religions that were lost. But que sera sera.

I do, however, have a BIG problem with Christian monuments and displays in my government buildings!

Were you against the building of the mosque near Ground Zero?

Absolutely, but on common sense grounds. No use rubbing salt in a wound, even unintentionally.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:26 am

Accountable;1364226 wrote: Relevance?Reason for inspiration.

Accountable;1364226 wrote:

What are you so deathly afraid of? You claim it doesn't upset you; that you're merely playing devil's advocate. But I think it's clear that you are either in denial or lying. I think you're lying. You've been too consistent on this subject to be in denial.

I don't think you would have raised such a stink about any other artifact, regardless of size or symbolic significance. Care to deny that as well?Try addressing the subject, a person's ad hominem accusations devalue the rest of what they contribute. You may like to notice that although you and I disagree I've not resorted to personal accusation toward you. Whether I care about the cross being part of the site or not does not mean I cannot occupy either side of the issue during a discussion.

This is a discussion forum, is it not?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 5:55 pm

Ahso!;1364231 wrote: Try addressing the subject,
I'll try, but it's hard to keep track. Is the subject whether an artifact found on site of a disaster area should be be displayed at a museum dedicated to that disaster, or is it eeeeevil religion's destructiveness on society?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:20 pm

Accountable;1364299 wrote: I'll try, but it's hard to keep track. Is the subject whether an artifact found on site of a disaster area should be be displayed at a museum dedicated to that disaster, or is it eeeeevil religion's destructiveness on society?A hint might be to go by what I write and not what your emotions tell you I mean. That's called being ACCOUNTABLE for ones feelings. Ever hear of it before?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:55 pm

Ahso!;1364301 wrote: [QUOTE=Accountable;1364299]I'll try, but it's hard to keep track. Is the subject whether an artifact found on site of a disaster area should be be displayed at a museum dedicated to that disaster, or is it eeeeevil religion's destructiveness on society?A hint might be to go by what I write and not what your emotions tell you I mean. That's called being ACCOUNTABLE for ones feelings. Ever hear of it before?
Well, going by your posts, the preponderance of your opinions being along these lines:Ahso!;1364070 wrote: ... Mine [opinion] is that it should not be part of the site because religion far too often gets to hijack events by having it's signature and symbols placed everywhere. ...Ahso!;1364194 wrote: We need to cease this religious competition and holy war mentality sooner or later so we may as well begin now.Ahso!;1364225 wrote: I think the percentage of Americans belonging to a religion is in the range of 90+ and of those I believe something like 76% claim a sect of Christianity as their religion. That's a lot.
I'd have to conclude that the real subject was the latter, and your subject line only a smokescreen. Apparently you're not comfortable just coming out like a man and stating your case, and prefer to use , um, a more subtle approach.

I'm not into Christian-bashing and am hardly in a position to be their champion, so I'll bow out.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:29 pm

You don't need to be either. Try objectivity. Though I'm sure you'll make the best decision for yourself. See ya!

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:55 am

For anyone else who needs assistance, this first part is the subject and is what should be addressed.Ahso!;1364070 wrote: Much has been made recently of the religious cross "found" in the debris at the WTC and so now Christians want it to be part of the spectacle that will replace the towers. An atheistic group is suing to prevent the cross from being placed at the site.

What's your opinion?And the following is my opinion. If you'd like to discuss my opinion and are capable of doing so in an adult-like fashion void of ad hominem attacks and other personal insults, feel free, however, staying with the above subject may be best.

Ahso!;1364070 wrote: Mine is that it should not be part of the site because religion far too often gets to hijack events by having it's signature and symbols placed everywhere. Times are changing and religion is losing it's grip on society.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:57 pm

Culture War Update - The Dividening of America - American Atheists vs. Ground Zero Cross - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - 08/04/11 - Video Clip | Comedy Central

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:56 am

Accountable;1364570 wrote: Culture War Update - The Dividening of America - American Atheists vs. Ground Zero Cross - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - 08/04/11 - Video Clip | Comedy Central

Finally, I have never figured out why athiest give a crap. It would be like me harping about a painting of someone fishing because I don't like fish. (although I do fish). Uh oh here come the anti fishiests.