In Class Warfare, Guess Which Class Is Winning

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:51 pm

In Class Warfare, Guess Which Class Is Winning - New York Times

“There’s class warfare, all right,” Mr. Buffett said, “but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”

Maybe with the tea oarty they've created a monster they can't control. Mo matter what happens in the next few days it seems quite likely that the days of the US dollar as the main currency for world trade is numbered. It was already being mooted before all this anyway.(by strauss-kahn while head of the IMF if you are in to conspiracy theories) now it' seems a certainty that will change.

So what do you reckon - are you going to default? I think the news media here have given up trying to guess.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:59 pm

gmc;1363610 wrote: In Class Warfare, Guess Which Class Is Winning - New York Times

Maybe with the tea oarty they've created a monster they can't control. Mo matter what happens in the next few days it seems quite likely that the days of the US dollar as the main currency for world trade is numbered. It was already being mooted before all this anyway.(by strauss-kahn while head of the IMF if you are in to conspiracy theories) now it' seems a certainty that will change.

So what do you reckon - are you going to default? I think the news media here have given up trying to guess.

Nah.

They'll come up with a last-minute compromise that both sides will take credit for, and find ways of pointing fingers at the other side.

Remember, next year is an election year.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:23 pm

Yes, they will pull through at the last minute like Lars said.

Ach, you used the word class-only 5 weeks until school starts!

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:40 pm

All the hype---all the hoopla----I'll give five to one that there will not be a default.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:30 am

I don;t suppose there will be a default but either way the days of the dollar as the worlds currency are numbered I think. The tea party will claim a victory and perhaps built their power base. I really don't know I've given up trying to make sense of US politics

Ach, you used the word class-only 5 weeks until school starts!

I didn't, warren buffet did. I thought the US was supposed to be a classless society but some of your politicians seem to have utter contempt for ordinary people and think they should just accept the crumbs of the rich man's table. The notion that wealth will trickle down and the rich shouldn't be taxed so they can spread their largesse is incredibly patronising goodness knows why anyone puts up with it.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:21 am

gmc;1363610 wrote: So what do you reckon - are you going to default? I think the news media here have given up trying to guess.

As I've said before, it's a show - theatre for the masses.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:16 am

Accountable;1363624 wrote: As I've said before, it's a show - theatre for the masses.Who is the wizard?

I disagree with your assessment entirely. I think this is a genuine fight between people who understand how the U.S. economy operates and those who do not and yet believe they do. This is a reckless display of the republican party's representatives who will do nothing other than stick their finger up to see which way the wind is blowing and capitulate to their ignorant base.

That said, I personally couldn't give a rat's behind what happens because America is screwed any way one looks at it. Our economy feeds, as Boris and Natasha would say, The Thieves Villains and Scoundrels Union on every side.

Collapse the the U.S. may be the best result and it's only a matter of time anyway.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:45 am

I doubt you'll collapse but you do seem to have a fight on to wrest power back from a selfish ruling elite that have you convinced you are not entitled to exert control over them and you have a strong religious minority that seem determined to take control of the state. On the other hand nothing is simple is it. Losing it's status as the main trading currency would be a severe dent to your economy just on it's own. It's seems likely now that china and russia will be pushing hard for that to happen.

Scrat · Post by **Scrat** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:52 am

Sadly everyone here is correct. They will pull a rabbit out of the hat at the last minute, it's all a show. In the end it will not matter as we are only staving off the inevitable.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:57 am

Scrat;1363637 wrote: Sadly everyone here is correct. They will pull a rabbit out of the hat at the last minute, it's all a show. In the end it will not matter as we are only staving off the inevitable.

The inevitable what?

Scrat · Post by **Scrat** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:33 pm

The inevitable fact that we can't pay our bills. Somebodies going to come to collect.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:53 am

You can pay them it's choosing not that would be serious. The requirement is you pay foreign creditors before you pay domestic liabilities. If I understand the mentality of the tea party correctly they would quite happily not pay the foreign creditors and not care about the consequences, or am i reading too much in to them.

posted by ahso

I disagree with your assessment entirely. I think this is a genuine fight between people who understand how the U.S. economy operates and those who do not and yet believe they do.

One of the more remarkable things is the way foreign countries get pilloried for luring jobs abroad with their low wages but the mainly american companies that lay off staff to go overseas don't seem to be held to blame in any way.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:57 am

gmc;1363665 wrote: You can pay them it's choosing not that would be serious. The requirement is you pay foreign creditors before you pay domestic liabilities. What requirement? Do you mean law or etiquette?

gmc;1363665 wrote: One of the more remarkable things is the way foreign countries get pilloried for luring jobs abroad with their low wages but the mainly american companies that lay off staff to go overseas don't seem to be held to blame in any way.You're mistaken. Wal-mart is routinely dragged across the coals for being the catalyst of outsourcing. They use hardball negotiating tactics that essentially force manufacturers to use cheaper overseas labor or lose a major source of revenue. CNBC has done a couple of documentaries. You may be able to find them online.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:06 am

Wal-martdocumentaries:

Hulu - CNBC Originals: The NEW Age of Walmart - Watch the full episode now.

Is Wal-Mart Good For America? | FRONTLINE | PBS

Walmart: The High Cost Of Low Prices

Why Wal-Mart Works: And Why That Drives Some People C-r-a-z-y (Video 2005) - IMDb

Other interesting stuff I found while searching.

The Outsourcing Weblog - Outsourcing Documentary - outsourcing, bpo, offshoring, bpo outsourcing, outsource, outsourcing services, bpo services

"30 Days" Outsourcing (TV episode 2006) - IMDb

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:00 pm

Accountable;1363667 wrote: Wal-martdocumentaries:

Hulu - CNBC Originals: The NEW Age of Walmart - Watch the full episode now.

Is Wal-Mart Good For America? | FRONTLINE | PBS

Walmart: The High Cost Of Low Prices

Why Wal-Mart Works: And Why That Drives Some People C-r-a-z-y (Video 2005) - IMDb

Other interesting stuff I found while searching.

The Outsourcing Weblog - Outsourcing Documentary - outsourcing, bpo, offshoring, bpo outsourcing, outsource, outsourcing services, bpo services

"30 Days" Outsourcing (TV episode 2006) - IMDb

Interesting links. It's an argument I've heard put forward for the UK market and there is an element of truth to it but we have a monopolies and mergers commission to prevent the kind of market dominance walmart have achieved in the states. Asda./walmart - as it is here is not the biggest player. I live in a town of 172,000, there are four major superstores with a fifth in the planning stage all with a square mile. It's one that will hit asda most. Our capitalists like yours have forgotten one of the basics of capitalism that you need a well educated, motivated and well paid workforce that can but the products you make and have just chased the bottom line regardless, it only worked for a short period. They also forgot they need to compete so your car manufactures tried to keep out competition rather than matching it. So how come so many of your politicians blame free trade agreements and chinese government policy

‪Donald Trump: 25% China Tariff; Take Iraqi oil; No nukes for Iran; Rebuild America‬‏ - YouTube

OK I hate the bastard and he's a pillock but he seems to articulate what many think. Why not do something about the corporations manufacturing abroad and closing american factories? Boycott those that do so - Where are their profits taxed for instance, what are the tax rates on repatriated profits from that factory in vietnam? I know individual americans get taxed on inxome earned anywhere in the world what about companies.

Slightly different attitudes here though, we're a bit more bolshie, for one thing, also hearing US politicians talking about unilaterally reneging on trade agreements, while it may sound good at home doesn't do you a lot of good in world trade. You need to sell stuff to us as much as we sell to you. Our major trading partner is the EU - which fact some of our numpties carefully like to forget.

BBC News - Newsnight - A new age of protest: UK Uncut in their own words

Companies are afraid of consumers all the consumer has to do is boycott enmasse to make walmart sit up and take notice.

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:22 pm

Where did the whole fear of taxing the rich come from??

What have they done for anyone lately that makes everyone so afraid of hitting them up for some money?? After all it was them who were all bailed out anyway, shouldn't they contribute?

Post by **LarsMac** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:40 pm

So, the House has passed the new debt ceiling bill, and it waits for the Senate, now.

Meanwhile, I found this commentary to be quite fascinating. The comments are event more interesting.

The phony-as-a-$3-bill debt deal | Gregg Easterbrook

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:58 pm

LarsMac;1363700 wrote: So, the House has passed the new debt ceiling bill, and it waits for the Senate, now.

Meanwhile, I found this commentary to be quite fascinating. The comments are event more interesting.

The phony-as-a-$3-bill debt deal | Gregg Easterbrook
Did I call it or did I call it?

Accountable;1363280 wrote: This whole debt ceiling charade is a kabuki for the masses. The ceiling will be raised, any meaningful promises will be placed so far out in the future that Washington will find some excuse to ignore them, and taxes will be raised enough to make a claim at election time without hurting the corporate sponsors.

Post by **LarsMac** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:21 pm

Accountable;1363703 wrote: Did I call it or did I call it?

Yessir, you nailed it.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:47 am

from the article

The worst aspect of the phony-as-a-$3-bill national debt deal is that the middle-aged men and women who run Washington are acting irresponsibly, then passing the problem along to their children. What kind of adult harms the future of his or her own offspring?

We call them selfish bastards. Like all kids with parents like that, as a child you are desperate for their approval and the rejection dents self confidence, as a teenager you begin to rebel as an adult you realise you don't need to worry about the bastards, they're wrong and not worth bothering about. So it is with a ruling elite, to start out with they convince you they know best and you should do what you are told, later you begin to question and they convince you you don't have the right to question and the ordinary people lack the self confidence to go against them. Then you get angry and change things.

Corporations make their profits on the labour of those who work for them so why should they not be taxed and the money used to benefit those who make the wealth in the first place. What is wrong with that as a concept. Same with oil and coal companies. Who decided they were entitled to take all the wealth from the land for their own benefit and why should they not be expected to put something back in to the society they work in. Our land laws and those relating to mineral rights are derived from feudal monarchies, the rulers own everything and gave some the right ton exploit them for a fee. Yours are not so where does the justification derive from? Any good capitalist needs a, fit, well educated workforce, helping to pay for education and welfare programmes isn't socialism it's basic common sense and good capitalism.

A surprising amount of american books and films are about the ordinary man defending himself from the big landowner or rail road firm or mining company out to take the land from those who settled it or just standing up to powerful interests. This is just the same kind of thing but on a bigger scale.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:53 pm

An angry man it seems. Is he a mainstream commentator?

The Four Great Hypocrisies of the Debt Deal | Countdown with Keith Olbermann

We have a saying in this country - bend over here come the tories, especially appropriate nowadays since we have a public schoolboy running them. Maybe you could borrow the sentiment with suitably adjusted cultural references.

Post by **LarsMac** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:23 pm

gmc;1363764 wrote: An angry man it seems. Is he a mainstream commentator?

The Four Great Hypocrisies of the Debt Deal | Countdown with Keith Olbermann

We have a saying in this country - bend over here come the tories, especially appropriate nowadays since we have a public schoolboy running them. Maybe you could borrow the sentiment with suitably adjusted cultural references.

Yeah, we have the same thing, sorta.

BOHICA

Bend Over, Here It Comes Again.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:37 pm

gmc;1363764 wrote: An angry man it seems. Is he a mainstream commentator?
Olberman??

If he moved any more left he'd drown in the Pacific! Hardly mainstream. Hehehehehe.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:37 am

Accountable;1363813 wrote: Olberman??

If he moved any more left he'd drown in the Pacific! Hardly mainstream. Hehehehehe.

He's hardly left wing - middle of the road maybe. We'll ley you borrow ken Livingstone for a while so you can see the difference. I take it you don't receive anything from the state or work for the government. If they cut social security altogether as well as all the veterans benefits from the looks of the tea party rallies most of the attendees wouldn't be able to afford to travel. I mean they don't look the types who are what we would call independently wealthy. Why on earth do they support cutting their own benefits? I just don't get it.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:33 am

Middle of your road. We drive on the right, remember? :yh_wink

You won't get it because you're in a different country, different situation, different culture, different history, different government system, different established purpose of government, coming from a different indoctrination of the purpose of living, different set of assumptions, a different perspective entirely.

It's not an academic exercise. Come over for a few months and immerse yourself. Maybe then.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:32 am

Accountable;1363832 wrote: Middle of your road. We drive on the right, remember? :yh_wink

You won't get it because you're in a different country, different situation, different culture, different history, different government system, different established purpose of government, coming from a different indoctrination of the purpose of living, different set of assumptions, a different perspective entirely.

It's not an academic exercise. Come over for a few months and immerse yourself. Maybe then.

You've got that right although you do seem to have some strange idea that we are all indoctrinated in some way. I will visit - am planning a month long visit though if I can, my business took a massive dent thanks to the financial crisis.

Looks like you are about to find out what living under a right wing government is really like if the right wing of the republican party get their way. Once your economy is totally bankrupt and people are on starvation wages you might understand why controlling the activities of big corporations, progressive taxation and some good social programmes is an important part of a capitalist economy. Or not, you never know.

Then there is the religious aspect, which i find endlessly fascinating. Came across this

KUHNER: Obama's culture of death - Washington Times

The proposal is profoundly immoral. Contraception violates the natural moral order. It decouples sexual intercourse from its main purpose: procreation. It entrenches the hedonistic ethic that sex is about recreation and individual gratification. It strikes at the very heart of a functioning, self-renewing civilization - having children and perpetuating one generation to another. This is why practically every major religion and most cultures have rightly believed that birth control, pornography, homosexuality and adultery are wrong. They threaten the basic institution of society: the traditional family. The family existed before the state; its importance transcends the state. Hence, our ancestors understood that moral standards must be upheld, not demolished. The breakdown of the family inevitably leads to social collapse.

Moreover, subsidizing free birth control violates the conscience rights of devout Christians, orthodox Jews and Muslims. It compels them to have their hard-earned taxpayer dollars go toward funding behavior that their religious faiths condemn as sinful and an abomination - especially, the “morning-after” pill, whose use is a possible form of abortion since it may terminate a conceived child. By adopting the proposal, Obamacare would not only assault the fundamental freedoms of religious Americans, it would make them complicit in Mr. Obama’s cultural liberalism.

I don't know how representative of peoples attitudes that is or how serious a paper the washington times is but we also have religious leaders coming out with similar crap, amongst other things they tried to ban the use of the morning after pill. Being a secular people with a long memory of religious warfare and oppression we tell them to get lost. Having the godly trying to dictate how we live our lives is not something we tolerate very well, we replaced that with secularism for very good reasons. Seems your religious extremists see nothing wrong in forcing their beliefs on to everybody else on order to make them more free to enjoy a good life.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:43 am

gmc;1363833 wrote: You've got that right although you do seem to have some strange idea that we are all indoctrinated in some way. I will visit - am planning a month long visit though if I can, my business took a massive dent thanks to the financial crisis.
Everybody's indoctrinated in one way or another. That's a good parent's job.

If you make it down Texas-way, I'd be mighty proud to meet you & treat you to one of our drastically inferior brews.

I'll have to address the rest later.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:33 pm

Accountable;1363848 wrote: Everybody's indoctrinated in one way or another. That's a good parent's job.

If you make it down Texas-way, I'd be mighty proud to meet you & treat you to one of our drastically inferior brews.

I'll have to address the rest later.

A good parents job imo is to make you question everything and be able to think for yourself. What strength is american beer normally? the stuff we get here is pretty weak

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:42 pm

gmc;1363833 wrote: Looks like you are about to find out what living under a right wing government is really like if the right wing of the republican party get their way. Once your economy is totally bankrupt and people are on starvation wages you might understand why controlling the activities of big corporations, progressive taxation and some good social programmes is an important part of a capitalist economy. Or not, you never know. We've lost too much liberty in exchange of convenience, avoiding personal responsibility, and false security. Any recovery of personal liberty & responsibility is bound to be painful. It's got to get much worse before it will get better. I welcome it but don't expect it.

gmc wrote: Then there is the religious aspect, which i find endlessly fascinating. Came across this

KUHNER: Obama's culture of death - Washington Times

I don't know how representative of peoples attitudes that is or how serious a paper the washington times is but we also have religious leaders coming out with similar crap, amongst other things they tried to ban the use of the morning after pill. Being a secular people with a long memory of religious warfare and oppression we tell them to get lost. Having the godly trying to dictate how we live our lives is not something we tolerate very well, we replaced that with secularism for very good reasons. Seems your religious extremists see nothing wrong in forcing their beliefs on to everybody else on order to make them more free to enjoy a good life.I don't expect you to understand it this time, either, but I'll type it again. Taxpayers should have a say in what their taxes pay for, even when those taxpayers have opinions different from yours. These things don't have to be done by the government to be done. There are other options.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:49 pm

gmc;1363873 wrote: A good parents job imo is to make you question everything and be able to think for yourself. What strength is american beer normally? the stuff we get here is pretty weak
Before parents allow you to question everything and think for yourself they teach you what is right & wrong, good & bad, selfish or simply assertive. The think-for-yourself part comes after years of indoctrination.

I'm afraid I'm guilty of generalizing & making assumptions. I thought Scots were as accomplished brewers as the Irish & English. American beer is a little on the weak side in alcohol, and the flavor of the most popular beers are weak as well. But the flavors are very eclectic if you're willing to delve into the microbrewery world, and most are quite good.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:29 am

Accountable;1363899 wrote: Before parents allow you to question everything and think for yourself they teach you what is right & wrong, good & bad, selfish or simply assertive. The think-for-yourself part comes after years of indoctrination.

I'm afraid I'm guilty of generalizing & making assumptions. I thought Scots were as accomplished brewers as the Irish & English. American beer is a little on the weak side in alcohol, and the flavor of the most popular beers are weak as well. But the flavors are very eclectic if you're willing to delve into the microbrewery world, and most are quite good.

We're good at whisky but take it from me our beers are rubbish you would only drink it if there was nothing else - why do you think so many scots are teetotal? if you didn't like spirits or wine you'd had it. Luckily we have always imported beer and wine from the continent. OK I admit it I don't like real ale and have the courage to say it out loud. I still remember when drinking lager meant you were a homosexual.