I have never entirely disbelieved the whole religion thing and neither have I ever embraced it fully. So, more or less "sitting on the fence" you could say.
What puts me off it in a way is this idea that only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven. Maybe I am understanding it wrongly but that is what I have been led to believe. What about the many people who, in their lives, never got a chance to know god, for example? How is it fair for them to be "condemned" in such a way?
Please enlighten me.
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
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medicinehat1
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:27 pm
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
medicinehat1;1322523 wrote: I have never entirely disbelieved the whole religion thing and neither have I ever embraced it fully. So, more or less "sitting on the fence" you could say.
What puts me off it in a way is this idea that only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven. Maybe I am understanding it wrongly but that is what I have been led to believe. What about the many people who, in their lives, never got a chance to know god, for example? How is it fair for them to be "condemned" in such a way?
They are not condemned, and of course it would be unfair if they were. The full quote should be, "Of those who have heard the gospel, only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven."
It is believed that everyone will have the same choice, sooner or later.
What puts me off it in a way is this idea that only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven. Maybe I am understanding it wrongly but that is what I have been led to believe. What about the many people who, in their lives, never got a chance to know god, for example? How is it fair for them to be "condemned" in such a way?
They are not condemned, and of course it would be unfair if they were. The full quote should be, "Of those who have heard the gospel, only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven."
It is believed that everyone will have the same choice, sooner or later.
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
xyz;1322531 wrote: They are not condemned, and of course it would be unfair if they were. The full quote should be, "Of those who have heard the gospel, only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven."
It is believed that everyone will have the same choice, sooner or later.
Depends who you listen to, there are those who have it that, because God gave the Word to Adam and Eve, the ancestors of those who believe in other faiths have turned away for the word of God and they and their children are therefore damned. (not quite a direct quote of Far's position but pretty close).
The Bible is very specific "the only way to Heaven is through me" with no qualifiers.
To my mind the different faiths worship different aspects of the one God and Jesus's statement "My Father's house has many rooms" implies that "Heaven" is but one entry to the house of God which has room for the faithful of all faiths. Wishful thinking? I don't know. What I'm sure of is that no one denomination has "the truth" and sole ownership of God.
It is believed that everyone will have the same choice, sooner or later.
Depends who you listen to, there are those who have it that, because God gave the Word to Adam and Eve, the ancestors of those who believe in other faiths have turned away for the word of God and they and their children are therefore damned. (not quite a direct quote of Far's position but pretty close).
The Bible is very specific "the only way to Heaven is through me" with no qualifiers.
To my mind the different faiths worship different aspects of the one God and Jesus's statement "My Father's house has many rooms" implies that "Heaven" is but one entry to the house of God which has room for the faithful of all faiths. Wishful thinking? I don't know. What I'm sure of is that no one denomination has "the truth" and sole ownership of God.
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
As a rider to this, I have just, co-incidentally, come across this Victorian definition of Limbo :-
Limbo (or Limbus).
A region, supposed to lie on
the edge or confines of hell, in
which the souls of just men not
admitted into heaven or purgatory
remained to await the
resurrection. Such were the
patriarchs and other pious
people who died before the birth
of Christ.
Which clearly shows that the belief was that those who were not Christian, deserving as they might be, would not go to Heaven.
Limbo (or Limbus).
A region, supposed to lie on
the edge or confines of hell, in
which the souls of just men not
admitted into heaven or purgatory
remained to await the
resurrection. Such were the
patriarchs and other pious
people who died before the birth
of Christ.
Which clearly shows that the belief was that those who were not Christian, deserving as they might be, would not go to Heaven.
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
To my mind the different faiths worship different aspects of the one God and Jesus's statement "My Father's house has many rooms" implies that "Heaven" is but one entry to the house of God which has room for the faithful of all faiths. Wishful thinking? I don't know. What I'm sure of is that no one denomination has "the truth" and sole ownership of God.
Hear, hear! Well said.
Hear, hear! Well said.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
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sunshine4486
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:19 pm
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
Hi, there ther is a miss quote here. The only ones that go to heaven are the ones that God has chosen and they number 144,000. You never had a chance, and most of who are living today will not. Most if not all of us will live here on earth a God has promised us in the Bible..
Matt. 5:5 5*“Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.
(Revelation 7:9) After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.
God has promised a New Heaven and a New earth. This being a new organnizations. Cleaning them up for them to be fit for God fearing Spiritual beings, and the earth fit for Humans rightious human. And Jesus did and is doing so this for his father Jehovah.
(Numbers 23:19) God is not a man that he should tell lies, Neither a son of mankind that he should feel regret. Has he himself said it and will he not do it, And has he spoken and will he not carry it out?
2*Peter 3:13 *But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.
You should worry about a relatoship with Jehovah God so he can put you name in that BOOK. If he does not know you he cant write your name down,does that make since?
I know thinking of living here in these conditons is a big turn off, but it wont be like this, it will be turned back into a paradise. And then on top of it all, your long dead family and friends will rise from the dead to meet you and your family..You see there are many things we cant even imagine will happen once all evil is taken off this earth, we will have a chance to live free of all the strife and conditions that make living here seem such a chore. But I find living in a spiritral paradise already keeps me going. The Hope, my Faith in it will happen because God does not lie, he has promised me this will happen I trust and believe in him....I really truly do.. I hope one day you cant learn to trust him like I do..
I have many health issues and I do dialysis every other day. I am one of the most happiest people around, it can happen to you too. With this hope.
Matt. 5:5 5*“Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.
(Revelation 7:9) After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.
God has promised a New Heaven and a New earth. This being a new organnizations. Cleaning them up for them to be fit for God fearing Spiritual beings, and the earth fit for Humans rightious human. And Jesus did and is doing so this for his father Jehovah.
(Numbers 23:19) God is not a man that he should tell lies, Neither a son of mankind that he should feel regret. Has he himself said it and will he not do it, And has he spoken and will he not carry it out?
2*Peter 3:13 *But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.
You should worry about a relatoship with Jehovah God so he can put you name in that BOOK. If he does not know you he cant write your name down,does that make since?
I know thinking of living here in these conditons is a big turn off, but it wont be like this, it will be turned back into a paradise. And then on top of it all, your long dead family and friends will rise from the dead to meet you and your family..You see there are many things we cant even imagine will happen once all evil is taken off this earth, we will have a chance to live free of all the strife and conditions that make living here seem such a chore. But I find living in a spiritral paradise already keeps me going. The Hope, my Faith in it will happen because God does not lie, he has promised me this will happen I trust and believe in him....I really truly do.. I hope one day you cant learn to trust him like I do..
I have many health issues and I do dialysis every other day. I am one of the most happiest people around, it can happen to you too. With this hope.
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
People should be themselves and if "you're" uncomfortable about anything then trash it. The only result of it has to be a lie.
Read about science and the history between science and religion. It's always nice to understand the differences between fact and fiction(Not to say that religion is fiction rather pointing out that scientific fact can always be trusted and that which goes against it cannot)
Read about Supernovae and how we as life forms wouldn't exist as we do without these colossal explosions. "The Exploding Suns" by Isaac Asimov is an excellent read...
Read about science and the history between science and religion. It's always nice to understand the differences between fact and fiction(Not to say that religion is fiction rather pointing out that scientific fact can always be trusted and that which goes against it cannot)
Read about Supernovae and how we as life forms wouldn't exist as we do without these colossal explosions. "The Exploding Suns" by Isaac Asimov is an excellent read...
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
Your interpretation regarding how a person is able to enter into the kingdom of heaven is correct. John 3:36 the Bible states, "Everyone who has faith in the Son has eternal life. But no one who rejects him will ever share in that life, and God will be angry with them forever.†This verse clearly states that the only way we can enter into the kingdom of God is through our belief in Jesus Christ. I realize that your main question or concern is about those who have never been given the opportunity to know God. This can be explained through various texts throughout the Bible. In the book of Titus, the scripture tells us that, "God has shown us undeserved grace by coming to save all people. This verse indicates that God makes himself known to every man individually. 2nd Peter 3:9 states it clearly, “The Lord isn’t slow about keeping his promises, as some people think he is. In fact, God is patient, because he wants everyone to turn from sin and no one to be lost.†I do realize that all men may not have a clear presentation of the Bible, but every man will have a chance to accept or reject Christ before his appointed time to die. You may be wondering, how do the people in the jungles of Africa hear the gospel? The Lord may reveal himself unto man in a variety of different ways. In the 2nd chapter of Romans verse 15, the Apostle Paul writes that the “conscience is like a law written in the human heart. And it will show whether we are forgiven or condemned.†Also, in Romans 1:20 the Bible tells of God making himself known unto man through the means of creation, "God's eternal power and character cannot be seen. But from the beginning of creation, God has shown what these are like by all he has made. That's why those people don't have any excuse.†As we can see, God uses creation, our conscious, and also circumstances that arise in our lives to reveal himself to all of mankind. Isaiah 55:9 tells us that “God’s ways are higher than our ways, so are His thoughts.†You are responsible as an individual whether you choose to accept or reject Christ. As Romans tells us that men will have “no excuse†not to be able to enter into Heaven. However, it is our Christian duty to share the gospel with the world. God’s great commission tells us, “go ye therefore into the world.†We have missionaries who travel to countries all over the world to share the gospel of Christ. I believe God knows exactly where to place these missionaries. He is aware of our being as well as our dwelling place. Acts 17:26 says, “From one person God made all nations who live on earth, and he decided when and where every nation would be.â€
I believe that infants who die will go to heaven. Children, before they reach the age of accountability will also go to heaven. In Luke 18:16 Jesus says, “Let the children come to me! Don’t try to stop them. People who are like these children belong to God’s kingdom.†Also, those born with the inability to reach the level of understanding, such as those with mental handicaps will be held innocent as a baby would be. For those that lived before the birth of Christ, God promised a Redeemer. Through the eyes of faith they looked toward the cross, where as we look back at the cross. Even though they didn’t know the name of the Redeemer they believed by faith. Hebrews Chapter 11 talks about the faith of Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and Sarah. Verse 13 says, “Every one of those people died. But they still had faith, even though they had not received what they had been promised. They were glad just to see these things from far away, and they agreed that they were only strangers and foreigners on this earth.†They all believed that they would inherit an eternal home in heaven.
I believe that infants who die will go to heaven. Children, before they reach the age of accountability will also go to heaven. In Luke 18:16 Jesus says, “Let the children come to me! Don’t try to stop them. People who are like these children belong to God’s kingdom.†Also, those born with the inability to reach the level of understanding, such as those with mental handicaps will be held innocent as a baby would be. For those that lived before the birth of Christ, God promised a Redeemer. Through the eyes of faith they looked toward the cross, where as we look back at the cross. Even though they didn’t know the name of the Redeemer they believed by faith. Hebrews Chapter 11 talks about the faith of Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and Sarah. Verse 13 says, “Every one of those people died. But they still had faith, even though they had not received what they had been promised. They were glad just to see these things from far away, and they agreed that they were only strangers and foreigners on this earth.†They all believed that they would inherit an eternal home in heaven.
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
Think of it as propaganda war to gain converts. There needs to be some reason to go to church and give the priest all your money. All religion starts with three questions, why am I here, what is the purpose and what happens when I am dead. If you convince people you know the answer you have power over them.
Cynical I know. Can you think of any monotheistic religion that doesn't seek more converts and the secular power to impose their will on those who are not it's followers?
Cynical I know. Can you think of any monotheistic religion that doesn't seek more converts and the secular power to impose their will on those who are not it's followers?
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
xyz;1322531 wrote: They are not condemned, and of course it would be unfair if they were. The full quote should be, "Of those who have heard the gospel, only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven."On a point of information, what are you quoting from here?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
K.Snyder;1330204 wrote: People should be themselves and if "you're" uncomfortable about anything then trash it. The only result of it has to be a lie.
Read about science and the history between science and religion. It's always nice to understand the differences between fact and fiction(Not to say that religion is fiction rather pointing out that scientific fact can always be trusted and that which goes against it cannot)
Read about Supernovae and how we as life forms wouldn't exist as we do without these colossal explosions. "The Exploding Suns" by Isaac Asimov is an excellent read...
Isaac Asimov. Now there's a guy I'd liked to have met and chinwagged with. Psychohistorian.
Read about science and the history between science and religion. It's always nice to understand the differences between fact and fiction(Not to say that religion is fiction rather pointing out that scientific fact can always be trusted and that which goes against it cannot)
Read about Supernovae and how we as life forms wouldn't exist as we do without these colossal explosions. "The Exploding Suns" by Isaac Asimov is an excellent read...
Isaac Asimov. Now there's a guy I'd liked to have met and chinwagged with. Psychohistorian.
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recovering conservative
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:28 pm
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
Bryn Mawr;1322536 wrote: Depends who you listen to, there are those who have it that, because God gave the Word to Adam and Eve, the ancestors of those who believe in other faiths have turned away for the word of God and they and their children are therefore damned. (not quite a direct quote of Far's position but pretty close).
The Bible is very specific "the only way to Heaven is through me" with no qualifiers.
To my mind the different faiths worship different aspects of the one God and Jesus's statement "My Father's house has many rooms" implies that "Heaven" is but one entry to the house of God which has room for the faithful of all faiths. Wishful thinking? I don't know. What I'm sure of is that no one denomination has "the truth" and sole ownership of God.
If I recall correctly, this "house with many rooms" theme was a big part of C.S. Lewis's theological opinion that all, or at least most Christian sects provide an opportunity to go to heaven. The problem is that many of them have different, and even outright contradictory beliefs about salvation. For example is it 'by faith', 'by works', 'by faith and works', 'only through grace' etc.
But, the problem would still be 'what about the majority of people in the world who are non-Christian? When Christians started believing that they had a loving God, instead of a just and vengeful God, all of a sudden the Problem of Evil in the world, and what about the millions or billions that are condemned to hell because they do not follow the path of salvation -- become big ethical dilemmas that Christians did not worry about previously.
The O.P. is still on the fence; for myself, I jumped off that fence and abandoned Christianity and belief in supernatural things entirely during my youth, because I just could not stand the position that someone who grows up in a different religion and holds to their traditions, is condemned because they do not accept Christian doctrine. And then I started thinking that heaven is an empty promise anyway, because our life on Earth and the creation of this Universe make no sense if it's just a temporary proving ground before spending billions or trillions of years living in some supernatural, ethereal, never-never land.
The Bible is very specific "the only way to Heaven is through me" with no qualifiers.
To my mind the different faiths worship different aspects of the one God and Jesus's statement "My Father's house has many rooms" implies that "Heaven" is but one entry to the house of God which has room for the faithful of all faiths. Wishful thinking? I don't know. What I'm sure of is that no one denomination has "the truth" and sole ownership of God.
If I recall correctly, this "house with many rooms" theme was a big part of C.S. Lewis's theological opinion that all, or at least most Christian sects provide an opportunity to go to heaven. The problem is that many of them have different, and even outright contradictory beliefs about salvation. For example is it 'by faith', 'by works', 'by faith and works', 'only through grace' etc.
But, the problem would still be 'what about the majority of people in the world who are non-Christian? When Christians started believing that they had a loving God, instead of a just and vengeful God, all of a sudden the Problem of Evil in the world, and what about the millions or billions that are condemned to hell because they do not follow the path of salvation -- become big ethical dilemmas that Christians did not worry about previously.
The O.P. is still on the fence; for myself, I jumped off that fence and abandoned Christianity and belief in supernatural things entirely during my youth, because I just could not stand the position that someone who grows up in a different religion and holds to their traditions, is condemned because they do not accept Christian doctrine. And then I started thinking that heaven is an empty promise anyway, because our life on Earth and the creation of this Universe make no sense if it's just a temporary proving ground before spending billions or trillions of years living in some supernatural, ethereal, never-never land.
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
recovering conservative;1336555 wrote: The O.P. is still on the fence; for myself, I jumped off that fence and abandoned Christianity and belief in supernatural things entirely during my youth, because I just could not stand the position that someone who grows up in a different religion and holds to their traditions, is condemned because they do not accept Christian doctrine. And then I started thinking that heaven is an empty promise anyway, because our life on Earth and the creation of this Universe make no sense if it's just a temporary proving ground before spending billions or trillions of years living in some supernatural, ethereal, never-never land.Christianity's a viable path even without those pointless distractions. There are Christian vocabularies which avoid the nonsensical trivia of a "supernatural, ethereal, never-never land" and the exclusivity of salvation. Throwing the baby of being the salt of the earth out with the bathwater of judgemental wrath isn't necessary.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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recovering conservative
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:28 pm
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
spot;1336594 wrote: Christianity's a viable path even without those pointless distractions. There are Christian vocabularies which avoid the nonsensical trivia of a "supernatural, ethereal, never-never land" and the exclusivity of salvation. Throwing the baby of being the salt of the earth out with the bathwater of judgemental wrath isn't necessary.
I don't disagree with you on that point! A religious tradition with millions of contributors, over a period of 2000 years is going to have a lot of value, and has influenced culture in many subtle ways. Most of the bad things happen when groups who believe they have the exclusive path to salvation are confronted by others who make contradictory claims.
What happened with many of us who came out of strict, fundamentalist churches was that we were told that 'it's all or nothing,' and we were shunned by family members who stayed loyal to the church. So most of us grew up with a great deal of hostility towards the churches we left behind. Some of us abandoned Christianity and religion altogether.....and if you were ever wondering why many atheists are also aggressively antitheist, that's where a lot of it is coming from.
I don't disagree with you on that point! A religious tradition with millions of contributors, over a period of 2000 years is going to have a lot of value, and has influenced culture in many subtle ways. Most of the bad things happen when groups who believe they have the exclusive path to salvation are confronted by others who make contradictory claims.
What happened with many of us who came out of strict, fundamentalist churches was that we were told that 'it's all or nothing,' and we were shunned by family members who stayed loyal to the church. So most of us grew up with a great deal of hostility towards the churches we left behind. Some of us abandoned Christianity and religion altogether.....and if you were ever wondering why many atheists are also aggressively antitheist, that's where a lot of it is coming from.
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
spot;1336594 wrote: Christianity's a viable path even without those pointless distractions. There are Christian vocabularies which avoid the nonsensical trivia of a "supernatural, ethereal, never-never land" and the exclusivity of salvation. Throwing the baby of being the salt of the earth out with the bathwater of judgemental wrath isn't necessary.Path? Where to?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
Ahso!;1336656 wrote: Path? Where to?
Through, not to. The path through life.
Through, not to. The path through life.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
spot;1336657 wrote: Through, not to. The path through life.I can appreciate that.
You believe salvation is necessary?
What about the more objectionable biblical content such as the lack of respect for other species, cultures, women and children?
You believe salvation is necessary?
What about the more objectionable biblical content such as the lack of respect for other species, cultures, women and children?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
recovering conservative;1336555 wrote: If I recall correctly, this "house with many rooms" theme was a big part of C.S. Lewis's theological opinion that all, or at least most Christian sects provide an opportunity to go to heaven. The problem is that many of them have different, and even outright contradictory beliefs about salvation. For example is it 'by faith', 'by works', 'by faith and works', 'only through grace' etc.
But, the problem would still be 'what about the majority of people in the world who are non-Christian? When Christians started believing that they had a loving God, instead of a just and vengeful God, all of a sudden the Problem of Evil in the world, and what about the millions or billions that are condemned to hell because they do not follow the path of salvation -- become big ethical dilemmas that Christians did not worry about previously.
The O.P. is still on the fence; for myself, I jumped off that fence and abandoned Christianity and belief in supernatural things entirely during my youth, because I just could not stand the position that someone who grows up in a different religion and holds to their traditions, is condemned because they do not accept Christian doctrine. And then I started thinking that heaven is an empty promise anyway, because our life on Earth and the creation of this Universe make no sense if it's just a temporary proving ground before spending billions or trillions of years living in some supernatural, ethereal, never-never land.
My suggestion was intended as covering the non-Christian faiths rather than limited to different sects within Christianity.
I believe that each of the major religions sees a different aspect of the same Divine according to their needs and that all will be welcome in God's house.
But, the problem would still be 'what about the majority of people in the world who are non-Christian? When Christians started believing that they had a loving God, instead of a just and vengeful God, all of a sudden the Problem of Evil in the world, and what about the millions or billions that are condemned to hell because they do not follow the path of salvation -- become big ethical dilemmas that Christians did not worry about previously.
The O.P. is still on the fence; for myself, I jumped off that fence and abandoned Christianity and belief in supernatural things entirely during my youth, because I just could not stand the position that someone who grows up in a different religion and holds to their traditions, is condemned because they do not accept Christian doctrine. And then I started thinking that heaven is an empty promise anyway, because our life on Earth and the creation of this Universe make no sense if it's just a temporary proving ground before spending billions or trillions of years living in some supernatural, ethereal, never-never land.
My suggestion was intended as covering the non-Christian faiths rather than limited to different sects within Christianity.
I believe that each of the major religions sees a different aspect of the same Divine according to their needs and that all will be welcome in God's house.
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
Ahso!;1336671 wrote: I can appreciate that.
You believe salvation is necessary?
Undoubtedly, but we're invariably coming back to vocabulary and the meaning of words, aren't we, every single step of the way. What's the Kingdom of Heaven, for example, into which Christianity saves those who practise its precepts? Some glorious eternal afterlife ranked around the throne of God, offering continual praise? I don't care whether the authors of the bible thought it was that, I don't even care if it turned out that a recognisably historical Jesus went to the cross believing it, Christianity's spent too long gazing into the navel of bible-idolatry, it's time the religion grew up and practised what it's spent too long refusing to preach.
The Kingdom is the rule, and the rule is the example set by the recorded reaction of Jesus to the society in which he was historically set. Maybe that recording is an accurate account of parts of one man's life, maybe it's a collation of several lives, maybe it's a literary invention from scratch. Bible idolatry, the idolising of the bible, demands Christians believe the New Testament to be literal truth. That's the bathwater. The baby is the message it carries. Heaven isn't an afterlife, it's a state of existence attained by living the message.
What's the core of the message, the living of which leads to salvation? Raising up the oppressed and marginalised, sharing resources, repudiating possession so that others can survive with dignity, repairing relationships, liberating the prisoners, building the New Jerusalem among England's dark satanic mills. That's life in heaven, that's salvation, that's freedom.
What about the more objectionable biblical content such as the lack of respect for other species, cultures, women and children? In the bible? It's a reflection of the understanding of society at the time each passage was frozen into its final written form. In Christianity today? It's wickedness. As we'll be viewed by future generations? It's embarrassing.
You believe salvation is necessary?
Undoubtedly, but we're invariably coming back to vocabulary and the meaning of words, aren't we, every single step of the way. What's the Kingdom of Heaven, for example, into which Christianity saves those who practise its precepts? Some glorious eternal afterlife ranked around the throne of God, offering continual praise? I don't care whether the authors of the bible thought it was that, I don't even care if it turned out that a recognisably historical Jesus went to the cross believing it, Christianity's spent too long gazing into the navel of bible-idolatry, it's time the religion grew up and practised what it's spent too long refusing to preach.
The Kingdom is the rule, and the rule is the example set by the recorded reaction of Jesus to the society in which he was historically set. Maybe that recording is an accurate account of parts of one man's life, maybe it's a collation of several lives, maybe it's a literary invention from scratch. Bible idolatry, the idolising of the bible, demands Christians believe the New Testament to be literal truth. That's the bathwater. The baby is the message it carries. Heaven isn't an afterlife, it's a state of existence attained by living the message.
What's the core of the message, the living of which leads to salvation? Raising up the oppressed and marginalised, sharing resources, repudiating possession so that others can survive with dignity, repairing relationships, liberating the prisoners, building the New Jerusalem among England's dark satanic mills. That's life in heaven, that's salvation, that's freedom.
What about the more objectionable biblical content such as the lack of respect for other species, cultures, women and children? In the bible? It's a reflection of the understanding of society at the time each passage was frozen into its final written form. In Christianity today? It's wickedness. As we'll be viewed by future generations? It's embarrassing.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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recovering conservative
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:28 pm
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
Bryn Mawr;1336673 wrote: My suggestion was intended as covering the non-Christian faiths rather than limited to different sects within Christianity.
I believe that each of the major religions sees a different aspect of the same Divine according to their needs and that all will be welcome in God's house.
I, personally am very skeptical about a grand designer or a grand puppetmaster in control of the universe; but if the world religions gave up the notion that they have exclusive rights to the Divine, the World would be a much safer place to live in!
I believe that each of the major religions sees a different aspect of the same Divine according to their needs and that all will be welcome in God's house.
I, personally am very skeptical about a grand designer or a grand puppetmaster in control of the universe; but if the world religions gave up the notion that they have exclusive rights to the Divine, the World would be a much safer place to live in!
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
recovering conservative;1337072 wrote: I, personally am very skeptical about a grand designer or a grand puppetmaster in control of the universe; but if the world religions gave up the notion that they have exclusive rights to the Divine, the World would be a much safer place to live in!
Seconded - in Spades.
I cannot say that I am fixated on their being a Grand Designer but I look at the major faiths and I see the same needs in them reaching very much the same solutions.
On a smaller scale, closer to home, I look at the Catholics and the Protestants using ,minute differences in their interpretation of the same Scripture to pour hate on each other. In this instance I find the story of John Henry Newman very instructive.
In the same way, look at Islam and you see a fourteen hundred year old power struggle between the cousin and father in law of the Prophet still being perpetuated in the same way.
At the end of the day, the three "Children of the Book" worship the same God - it is only the route they use to get to Him that differs.
Seconded - in Spades.
I cannot say that I am fixated on their being a Grand Designer but I look at the major faiths and I see the same needs in them reaching very much the same solutions.
On a smaller scale, closer to home, I look at the Catholics and the Protestants using ,minute differences in their interpretation of the same Scripture to pour hate on each other. In this instance I find the story of John Henry Newman very instructive.
In the same way, look at Islam and you see a fourteen hundred year old power struggle between the cousin and father in law of the Prophet still being perpetuated in the same way.
At the end of the day, the three "Children of the Book" worship the same God - it is only the route they use to get to Him that differs.
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
recovering conservative;1337072 wrote: if the world religions gave up the notion that they have exclusive rights to the Divine, the World would be a much safer place to live in!
If the vast numbers of religious people were to take their divinities seriously, the biggest killers of humanity would not be starvation and avoidable disease. If religious people were to take their divinities seriously, there would not be the imminent threat if not already present reality of mass disruption and mortality due to climate change. There is more danger from lack of conviction than from conviction.
But this world is, of course, ultimately of no importance to religions, and threat of violence should not be not a factor in one's choice of eternal destiny- unless it is to encourage a particular choice. If it is true that only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to heaven, then, as Jesus and his apostles indicate, there is nothing in this world that is worth having rather than that destination, and there is nothing that people can do to them that should put people off putting their trust in Jesus. If it is true that one must be devoted to Lord Krishna, or Allah, or any other, the same considerations obtain. If people are not prepared to have the courage of their convictions, they may as well not have them. One must be prepared to accept that this existence may be a testing ground for a next one, and that life may never be free from the potential dangers implied by that.
If the vast numbers of religious people were to take their divinities seriously, the biggest killers of humanity would not be starvation and avoidable disease. If religious people were to take their divinities seriously, there would not be the imminent threat if not already present reality of mass disruption and mortality due to climate change. There is more danger from lack of conviction than from conviction.
But this world is, of course, ultimately of no importance to religions, and threat of violence should not be not a factor in one's choice of eternal destiny- unless it is to encourage a particular choice. If it is true that only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to heaven, then, as Jesus and his apostles indicate, there is nothing in this world that is worth having rather than that destination, and there is nothing that people can do to them that should put people off putting their trust in Jesus. If it is true that one must be devoted to Lord Krishna, or Allah, or any other, the same considerations obtain. If people are not prepared to have the courage of their convictions, they may as well not have them. One must be prepared to accept that this existence may be a testing ground for a next one, and that life may never be free from the potential dangers implied by that.
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fuzzywuzzy
- Posts: 6596
- Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:35 pm
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
medicinehat1;1322523 wrote: I have never entirely disbelieved the whole religion thing and neither have I ever embraced it fully. So, more or less "sitting on the fence" you could say.
What puts me off it in a way is this idea that only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven. Maybe I am understanding it wrongly but that is what I have been led to believe. What about the many people who, in their lives, never got a chance to know god, for example? How is it fair for them to be "condemned" in such a way?
Please enlighten me.
YOu know? I"ve come from doctrine from strict roman cathlic to JW. And if you read your bible remember one thing...see what Jesus had to say about all manner of situations. When that all inspiring and sometimes thought provoking and stomach heaving saying ..."What would Jesus do?" have a look at what Jesus would do or say and take heed of that ....you don't have to join a religious sect, religion or anything else. If there is a heaven or hell or purgatory or whereever else we're supposed to go to .....it's simple, live a good life and make the right decisions in adversity. You won't find anything different in what Jesus said compared to Buddha. Old wisdoms are still accurate today.
What puts me off it in a way is this idea that only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven. Maybe I am understanding it wrongly but that is what I have been led to believe. What about the many people who, in their lives, never got a chance to know god, for example? How is it fair for them to be "condemned" in such a way?
Please enlighten me.
YOu know? I"ve come from doctrine from strict roman cathlic to JW. And if you read your bible remember one thing...see what Jesus had to say about all manner of situations. When that all inspiring and sometimes thought provoking and stomach heaving saying ..."What would Jesus do?" have a look at what Jesus would do or say and take heed of that ....you don't have to join a religious sect, religion or anything else. If there is a heaven or hell or purgatory or whereever else we're supposed to go to .....it's simple, live a good life and make the right decisions in adversity. You won't find anything different in what Jesus said compared to Buddha. Old wisdoms are still accurate today.
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recovering conservative
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:28 pm
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
Bryn Mawr;1337081 wrote: Seconded - in Spades.
I cannot say that I am fixated on their being a Grand Designer but I look at the major faiths and I see the same needs in them reaching very much the same solutions.
On a smaller scale, closer to home, I look at the Catholics and the Protestants using ,minute differences in their interpretation of the same Scripture to pour hate on each other. In this instance I find the story of John Henry Newman very instructive.
In the same way, look at Islam and you see a fourteen hundred year old power struggle between the cousin and father in law of the Prophet still being perpetuated in the same way.
At the end of the day, the three "Children of the Book" worship the same God - it is only the route they use to get to Him that differs.
I've read some cultural anthropologists who've talked about the development of organized religion as an attempt, or method to encourage people to expand their 'circle of concern.'
Before modern times, hunter/gatherer tribes had no consideration for people outside of the tribe. Translated into English, the name for the tribe was "the people," and everyone else was "the others." Religion in hunter/gatherer societies was indistinguishable from daily life. It wasn't until agriculture and city-states, that groups of unrelated people started living together; and organized religion begins. Religion goes hand in hand with nationalism -- ways for large, unrelated communities to feel a common bond.
Over the eons, religion moves from polytheism to monolatry to monotheism. Gradually, we move from every town having their own gods and goddesses -- to the gods are all equivalent, and just have different names. And this seemed to keep people living in ancient empires on good terms with their neighbours. Then, we get to a universal god, in charge of everything, and varying degrees of tolerance for other interpretations about the universal god.
In this day and age, we need a religion that recognizes that all nations share the same atmosphere and biosphere of the planet. So the circle of concern has to be expanded to include all nations, and the health of the planet we are living on. Bitchy debates about doctrines and dogmas have no relevance in solving global problems.
I cannot say that I am fixated on their being a Grand Designer but I look at the major faiths and I see the same needs in them reaching very much the same solutions.
On a smaller scale, closer to home, I look at the Catholics and the Protestants using ,minute differences in their interpretation of the same Scripture to pour hate on each other. In this instance I find the story of John Henry Newman very instructive.
In the same way, look at Islam and you see a fourteen hundred year old power struggle between the cousin and father in law of the Prophet still being perpetuated in the same way.
At the end of the day, the three "Children of the Book" worship the same God - it is only the route they use to get to Him that differs.
I've read some cultural anthropologists who've talked about the development of organized religion as an attempt, or method to encourage people to expand their 'circle of concern.'
Before modern times, hunter/gatherer tribes had no consideration for people outside of the tribe. Translated into English, the name for the tribe was "the people," and everyone else was "the others." Religion in hunter/gatherer societies was indistinguishable from daily life. It wasn't until agriculture and city-states, that groups of unrelated people started living together; and organized religion begins. Religion goes hand in hand with nationalism -- ways for large, unrelated communities to feel a common bond.
Over the eons, religion moves from polytheism to monolatry to monotheism. Gradually, we move from every town having their own gods and goddesses -- to the gods are all equivalent, and just have different names. And this seemed to keep people living in ancient empires on good terms with their neighbours. Then, we get to a universal god, in charge of everything, and varying degrees of tolerance for other interpretations about the universal god.
In this day and age, we need a religion that recognizes that all nations share the same atmosphere and biosphere of the planet. So the circle of concern has to be expanded to include all nations, and the health of the planet we are living on. Bitchy debates about doctrines and dogmas have no relevance in solving global problems.
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littleCJelkton
- Posts: 1215
- Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:57 pm
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
recovering conservative;1337811 wrote: I've read some cultural anthropologists who've talked about the development of organized religion as an attempt, or method to encourage people to expand their 'circle of concern.'
Before modern times, hunter/gatherer tribes had no consideration for people outside of the tribe. Translated into English, the name for the tribe was "the people," and everyone else was "the others." Religion in hunter/gatherer societies was indistinguishable from daily life. It wasn't until agriculture and city-states, that groups of unrelated people started living together; and organized religion begins. Religion goes hand in hand with nationalism -- ways for large, unrelated communities to feel a common bond.
Over the eons, religion moves from polytheism to monolatry to monotheism. Gradually, we move from every town having their own gods and goddesses -- to the gods are all equivalent, and just have different names. And this seemed to keep people living in ancient empires on good terms with their neighbours. Then, we get to a universal god, in charge of everything, and varying degrees of tolerance for other interpretations about the universal god.
In this day and age, we need a religion that recognizes that all nations share the same atmosphere and biosphere of the planet. So the circle of concern has to be expanded to include all nations, and the health of the planet we are living on. Bitchy debates about doctrines and dogmas have no relevance in solving global problems.
uh oh now your treading in to a a new and controversial paradigm. If the hunter/gather tribes came together through religion, then made city states---> kingdoms--->empires--->nations. Then would it be wrong to believe a world recognized religion would bring about a world government?
Before modern times, hunter/gatherer tribes had no consideration for people outside of the tribe. Translated into English, the name for the tribe was "the people," and everyone else was "the others." Religion in hunter/gatherer societies was indistinguishable from daily life. It wasn't until agriculture and city-states, that groups of unrelated people started living together; and organized religion begins. Religion goes hand in hand with nationalism -- ways for large, unrelated communities to feel a common bond.
Over the eons, religion moves from polytheism to monolatry to monotheism. Gradually, we move from every town having their own gods and goddesses -- to the gods are all equivalent, and just have different names. And this seemed to keep people living in ancient empires on good terms with their neighbours. Then, we get to a universal god, in charge of everything, and varying degrees of tolerance for other interpretations about the universal god.
In this day and age, we need a religion that recognizes that all nations share the same atmosphere and biosphere of the planet. So the circle of concern has to be expanded to include all nations, and the health of the planet we are living on. Bitchy debates about doctrines and dogmas have no relevance in solving global problems.
uh oh now your treading in to a a new and controversial paradigm. If the hunter/gather tribes came together through religion, then made city states---> kingdoms--->empires--->nations. Then would it be wrong to believe a world recognized religion would bring about a world government?
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recovering conservative
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:28 pm
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
littleCJelkton;1337946 wrote: uh oh now your treading in to a a new and controversial paradigm. If the hunter/gather tribes came together through religion, then made city states---> kingdoms--->empires--->nations. Then would it be wrong to believe a world recognized religion would bring about a world government?
Is a world government necessarily a bad thing? It worked on Star Trek! There will never be one religion in control of the whole world because schisms inevitably develop. In Christianity alone, it's estimated that there are at least 33,000 different Christian sects in the world today. The best we can hope for is to have a set of universal principles that are generally accepted. Maybe the "One World Government" can stop that "Clash Of Civilizations" that Neocons are looking forward to, and divert the funds for future wars towards real action to prevent a global climate catastrophe.
Is a world government necessarily a bad thing? It worked on Star Trek! There will never be one religion in control of the whole world because schisms inevitably develop. In Christianity alone, it's estimated that there are at least 33,000 different Christian sects in the world today. The best we can hope for is to have a set of universal principles that are generally accepted. Maybe the "One World Government" can stop that "Clash Of Civilizations" that Neocons are looking forward to, and divert the funds for future wars towards real action to prevent a global climate catastrophe.
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
recovering conservative;1337960 wrote: In Christianity alone, it's estimated that there are at least 33,000 different Christian sects in the world today.
Not by Christians. Christians ignore what others call denominations, and together form one, united, invisible church, that will never form an earthly government.
Not by Christians. Christians ignore what others call denominations, and together form one, united, invisible church, that will never form an earthly government.
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
xyz;1337961 wrote: Not by Christians. Christians ignore what others call denominations, and together form one, united, invisible church, that will never form an earthly government.
It's odd that we can't even manage intercommunion if that's so, don't you think? Sharing the body and blood? It's many centuries since that was allowed.
It's odd that we can't even manage intercommunion if that's so, don't you think? Sharing the body and blood? It's many centuries since that was allowed.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
spot;1337962 wrote: It's odd that we can't even manage intercommunion if that's so, don't you think? Sharing the body and blood? It's many centuries since that was allowed.
We?
We?
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
xyz;1337963 wrote: We? It's an exclusive club?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
Ahso!;1337973 wrote: It's an exclusive club?
Just exclusive.
Just exclusive.
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
xyz;1337976 wrote: Just exclusive. :)I'll request elucidation before I go and disagree.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
-
recovering conservative
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:28 pm
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
xyz;1337961 wrote: Not by Christians. Christians ignore what others call denominations, and together form one, united, invisible church, that will never form an earthly government.
And what kind of Christians might these be? My guess would be "non-denominational" churches who do have some rigid doctrines of their own, but claim every church should be like them!
The Catholic Church considered itself to be the "one, united, invisible church" also, and did not take kindly to Protestant schisms. The first ones were ruthlessly suppressed; and then long, bloody wars were fought in Europe before the Mother Church decided to call it off and leave judgment for the next world.
Right now there are sharp divisions among Evangelicals regarding Pentecostal's "gifts of the spirit;" and there is a sharp division over interpreting Biblical history. Traditional Covenant Replacement theology, taught that God's covenant with Israel was replaced with that of the Christian Church. They do not necessarily believe that there are Biblical prophecies still awaiting fulfillment; and are likely to follow Dominionism -- that God's Law and Government has to be established by the Church today. This is the motivating strain behind the Christian Right today -- they obviously do not share that belief about no Christian earthly governments.
On the other side -- the Dispensationalists, who started about 150 years ago -- have slowly, and methodically worked their ideas into Protestant and Evangelical churches; largely through their emphasis on living in the Last Days. They believe that God's covenant with Israel is still in force -- make a big deal about the establishment of the modern State of Israel in 1948....but the most supportive Christian Zionists are a little murky about how modern Jews still have God's favour, even though they don't accept Jesus as the Messiah.
Some Evangelical leaders like Pat Robertson, try to split the horns of the dilemma by saying that Christians should hold both beliefs; and work to advance Christian politics....even if they believe the end is coming in about 10 or 15 years. Most of the unity among these groups is superficial only. For example, as long as they are united around fighting against abortion, gay rights, building of mosques etc., they can appear to be united. But, these divisions are always lurking below the surface, and will rip apart their superficial unity as soon as they run out of common enemies to rally against.
And what kind of Christians might these be? My guess would be "non-denominational" churches who do have some rigid doctrines of their own, but claim every church should be like them!
The Catholic Church considered itself to be the "one, united, invisible church" also, and did not take kindly to Protestant schisms. The first ones were ruthlessly suppressed; and then long, bloody wars were fought in Europe before the Mother Church decided to call it off and leave judgment for the next world.
Right now there are sharp divisions among Evangelicals regarding Pentecostal's "gifts of the spirit;" and there is a sharp division over interpreting Biblical history. Traditional Covenant Replacement theology, taught that God's covenant with Israel was replaced with that of the Christian Church. They do not necessarily believe that there are Biblical prophecies still awaiting fulfillment; and are likely to follow Dominionism -- that God's Law and Government has to be established by the Church today. This is the motivating strain behind the Christian Right today -- they obviously do not share that belief about no Christian earthly governments.
On the other side -- the Dispensationalists, who started about 150 years ago -- have slowly, and methodically worked their ideas into Protestant and Evangelical churches; largely through their emphasis on living in the Last Days. They believe that God's covenant with Israel is still in force -- make a big deal about the establishment of the modern State of Israel in 1948....but the most supportive Christian Zionists are a little murky about how modern Jews still have God's favour, even though they don't accept Jesus as the Messiah.
Some Evangelical leaders like Pat Robertson, try to split the horns of the dilemma by saying that Christians should hold both beliefs; and work to advance Christian politics....even if they believe the end is coming in about 10 or 15 years. Most of the unity among these groups is superficial only. For example, as long as they are united around fighting against abortion, gay rights, building of mosques etc., they can appear to be united. But, these divisions are always lurking below the surface, and will rip apart their superficial unity as soon as they run out of common enemies to rally against.
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
recovering conservative;1338072 wrote: And what kind of Christians might these be?
There is only one sort of Christian. Christians regard each other as brothers and sisters, and recognise no division between themselves. They regard any who do not join with them when opportunity arises as needing to be born again as they are.
There is only one sort of Christian. Christians regard each other as brothers and sisters, and recognise no division between themselves. They regard any who do not join with them when opportunity arises as needing to be born again as they are.
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
xyz;1338075 wrote: There is only one sort of Christian. Christians regard each other as brothers and sisters, and recognise no division between themselves. They regard any who do not join with them when opportunity arises as needing to be born again as they are.Oh is that what was going on in Ireland all those years - sibling rivalry?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
-
recovering conservative
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:28 pm
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
xyz;1338075 wrote: There is only one sort of Christian. Christians regard each other as brothers and sisters, and recognise no division between themselves. They regard any who do not join with them when opportunity arises as needing to be born again as they are.
If your religion is organized around shared principles, rather than shared beliefs, you might have a better case! But, even if you accept everyone who makes the profession of faith, and claims to be "born again," what about all of the traditional churches that do not accept faith-alone salvation -- such as Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans and Anglicans?
This N.Y. Times editorial on a Pew Forum survey a couple of years ago, seems to indicate that most Americans are universalists when it comes to salvation. According to the Pew survey, 70% of respondents believe that good people of other religions go to heaven. When evangelicals complained that people may have been confused by the question, Pew created a new, more detailed survey a few months later:
So in August, Pew asked the question again. (They released the results last week.) Sixty-five percent of respondents said — again — that other religions could lead to eternal life. But this time, to clear up any confusion, Pew asked them to specify which religions. The respondents essentially said all of them.
And they didn’t stop there. Nearly half also thought that atheists could go to heaven — dragged there kicking and screaming, no doubt — and most thought that people with no religious faith also could go.
What on earth does this mean?
One very plausible explanation is that Americans just want good things to come to good people, regardless of their faith. As Alan Segal, a professor of religion at Barnard College told me: “We are a multicultural society, and people expect this American life to continue the same way in heaven.” He explained that in our society, we meet so many good people of different faiths that it’s hard for us to imagine God letting them go to hell. In fact, in the most recent survey, Pew asked people what they thought determined whether a person would achieve eternal life. Nearly as many Christians said you could achieve eternal life by just being a good person as said that you had to believe in Jesus.
Sounds fair to me! From my POV, I see heaven and hell as imaginary future rewards and punishments, and there existence creates moral quandaries in the believers when they have to rationalize why people they consider good should be damned by their beliefs and religious heritage. I can't find it at the moment, but a related survey mentioned that between 20 and 30% (depending on which sect) believed that animals, especially pets can go to heaven too! This is total heresy by traditional dogmas, but it makes sense why a lot of people are thinking this way nowadays -- science has taught us that there is a lot less separating us from other animals than we traditionally believed; and many lonely and isolated people have closer relationships with their dogs and cats, than they do with people! It only makes sense that they would want to take them along to heaven when they die.
If your religion is organized around shared principles, rather than shared beliefs, you might have a better case! But, even if you accept everyone who makes the profession of faith, and claims to be "born again," what about all of the traditional churches that do not accept faith-alone salvation -- such as Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans and Anglicans?
This N.Y. Times editorial on a Pew Forum survey a couple of years ago, seems to indicate that most Americans are universalists when it comes to salvation. According to the Pew survey, 70% of respondents believe that good people of other religions go to heaven. When evangelicals complained that people may have been confused by the question, Pew created a new, more detailed survey a few months later:
So in August, Pew asked the question again. (They released the results last week.) Sixty-five percent of respondents said — again — that other religions could lead to eternal life. But this time, to clear up any confusion, Pew asked them to specify which religions. The respondents essentially said all of them.
And they didn’t stop there. Nearly half also thought that atheists could go to heaven — dragged there kicking and screaming, no doubt — and most thought that people with no religious faith also could go.
What on earth does this mean?
One very plausible explanation is that Americans just want good things to come to good people, regardless of their faith. As Alan Segal, a professor of religion at Barnard College told me: “We are a multicultural society, and people expect this American life to continue the same way in heaven.” He explained that in our society, we meet so many good people of different faiths that it’s hard for us to imagine God letting them go to hell. In fact, in the most recent survey, Pew asked people what they thought determined whether a person would achieve eternal life. Nearly as many Christians said you could achieve eternal life by just being a good person as said that you had to believe in Jesus.
Sounds fair to me! From my POV, I see heaven and hell as imaginary future rewards and punishments, and there existence creates moral quandaries in the believers when they have to rationalize why people they consider good should be damned by their beliefs and religious heritage. I can't find it at the moment, but a related survey mentioned that between 20 and 30% (depending on which sect) believed that animals, especially pets can go to heaven too! This is total heresy by traditional dogmas, but it makes sense why a lot of people are thinking this way nowadays -- science has taught us that there is a lot less separating us from other animals than we traditionally believed; and many lonely and isolated people have closer relationships with their dogs and cats, than they do with people! It only makes sense that they would want to take them along to heaven when they die.
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
xyz;1337963 wrote: [quote=spot][QUOTE=xyz]Not by Christians. Christians ignore what others call denominations, and together form one, united, invisible church, that will never form an earthly government.It's odd that we can't even manage intercommunion if that's so, don't you think? Sharing the body and blood? It's many centuries since that was allowed.[/QUOTE]We? [/QUOTE]You're having trouble with the context of my comment? Yes, "We", as in Christians. "One, united, invisible church" doesn't exist within Christianity while its members refuse to recognize the validity of each other's priesthood, it's pretty fundamental.
My Methodist denomination recognizes the priesthood of all believers, for example. For centuries we were consequently denied communion by the Church of England, something we only mended recently - during my lifetime. Neither I nor anyone within the Church of England may take communion at a Roman Catholic service even now, despite decades of conferences trying to end the problem. If we were to physically do so, the validity of that communion would not be recognized by the Roman Catholic church, and the same goes for any Roman Catholic presenting himself for communion at an Anglican or Methodist mass.
These aren't fringe sects, these are the central core of the Church on Earth, and they still can't achieve unity in any meaningful sense. If you refuse to recognize those three bodies as Christian you're even further out on the fringes than I'd initially assumed. If you do recognize them then where's your "one, united, invisible church"?
My Methodist denomination recognizes the priesthood of all believers, for example. For centuries we were consequently denied communion by the Church of England, something we only mended recently - during my lifetime. Neither I nor anyone within the Church of England may take communion at a Roman Catholic service even now, despite decades of conferences trying to end the problem. If we were to physically do so, the validity of that communion would not be recognized by the Roman Catholic church, and the same goes for any Roman Catholic presenting himself for communion at an Anglican or Methodist mass.
These aren't fringe sects, these are the central core of the Church on Earth, and they still can't achieve unity in any meaningful sense. If you refuse to recognize those three bodies as Christian you're even further out on the fringes than I'd initially assumed. If you do recognize them then where's your "one, united, invisible church"?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
spot;1338138 wrote: You're having trouble with the context of my comment?
I'm asking who 'we' represents. It could represent false Christians, as any mature adult Christian would realise, especially on the internet.
Yes, "We", as in Christians.
That comment has disqualified anything that the poster has written or may write in this forum.
I'm asking who 'we' represents. It could represent false Christians, as any mature adult Christian would realise, especially on the internet.
Yes, "We", as in Christians.
That comment has disqualified anything that the poster has written or may write in this forum.
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recovering conservative
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:28 pm
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
These aren't fringe sects, these are the central core of the Church on Earth, and they still can't achieve unity in any meaningful sense.
If everyone can't all believe the same things, how about uniting on something trivial, like reducing greenhouse gas emissions, before the human race joins the extinct species list in the next century!
If everyone can't all believe the same things, how about uniting on something trivial, like reducing greenhouse gas emissions, before the human race joins the extinct species list in the next century!
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
xyz;1338141 wrote: That comment has disqualified anything that the poster has written or may write in this forum.You seem to be edging nervously around suggesting my Christian credentials are somehow suspect. Or have I got that wrong? Call a spade a spade, for goodness' sake.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
recovering conservative;1338136 wrote: If your religion is organized around shared principles, rather than shared beliefs, you might have a better case!
I don't see a difference, except that beliefs are more specific than principles.
But, even if you accept everyone who makes the profession of faith, and claims to be "born again,"
Certainly not! Genuine claimants realise that claims are extremely easy to make, and expect to have to show that their claim is genuine only after the protracted personal experience of church members on a day-to-day basis. Unless they arrive with attestation of another, known fellowship.
what about all of the traditional churches that do not accept faith-alone salvation -- such as Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans and Anglicans?
As already stated, denominations are of no genuine interest to Christians, but, as it happens, Lutherans and Anglicans do accept sola fide- though they are rarely born again, these days. Any who accept that Roman Catholics can be Christians are instantly disqualified just because of the scandalous history of their organisation that brings Christ into disrepute, though of course the RCC declares Christians to be cursed anyway in its canons.
I don't see a difference, except that beliefs are more specific than principles.
But, even if you accept everyone who makes the profession of faith, and claims to be "born again,"
Certainly not! Genuine claimants realise that claims are extremely easy to make, and expect to have to show that their claim is genuine only after the protracted personal experience of church members on a day-to-day basis. Unless they arrive with attestation of another, known fellowship.
what about all of the traditional churches that do not accept faith-alone salvation -- such as Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans and Anglicans?
As already stated, denominations are of no genuine interest to Christians, but, as it happens, Lutherans and Anglicans do accept sola fide- though they are rarely born again, these days. Any who accept that Roman Catholics can be Christians are instantly disqualified just because of the scandalous history of their organisation that brings Christ into disrepute, though of course the RCC declares Christians to be cursed anyway in its canons.
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
xyz;1338149 wrote: Any who accept that Roman Catholics can be Christians are instantly disqualified just because of the scandalous history of their organisation that brings Christ into disrepute, though of course the RCC declares Christians to be cursed anyway in its canons.My word we've got a right one here. I've met Jehovah's Witnesses with a more ecumenical outlook.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
recovering conservative
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:28 pm
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
xyz;1338149 wrote: I don't see a difference, except that beliefs are more specific than principles.
I look at this way -- do you want neighbours who share your beliefs, but are selfish and inhospitable...or worse? Or would you prefer neighbours who may have totally different beliefs, but share the same values that you consider important?
Certainly not! Genuine claimants realise that claims are extremely easy to make, and expect to have to show that their claim is genuine only after the protracted personal experience of church members on a day-to-day basis. Unless they arrive with attestation of another, known fellowship.
Your Christian community keeps shrinking with every post!
As already stated, denominations are of no genuine interest to Christians, but, as it happens, Lutherans and Anglicans do accept sola fide- though they are rarely born again, these days.
But they also consider the sacraments essential for salvation, so they do not qualify as sola fide, any more than Catholics or Orthodox Christians.
Any who accept that Roman Catholics can be Christians are instantly disqualified just because of the scandalous history of their organisation that brings Christ into disrepute,
Are the members of the Catholic Church also condemned because of the scandals of their leaders? If that's so, then there are a lot of evangelicals that will burn for supporting fallen televangelists over the years!
though of course the RCC declares Christians to be cursed anyway in its canons.
And you lost me here! As far as I am aware, the Catholic Church identifies itself as Christian.
I look at this way -- do you want neighbours who share your beliefs, but are selfish and inhospitable...or worse? Or would you prefer neighbours who may have totally different beliefs, but share the same values that you consider important?
Certainly not! Genuine claimants realise that claims are extremely easy to make, and expect to have to show that their claim is genuine only after the protracted personal experience of church members on a day-to-day basis. Unless they arrive with attestation of another, known fellowship.
Your Christian community keeps shrinking with every post!
As already stated, denominations are of no genuine interest to Christians, but, as it happens, Lutherans and Anglicans do accept sola fide- though they are rarely born again, these days.
But they also consider the sacraments essential for salvation, so they do not qualify as sola fide, any more than Catholics or Orthodox Christians.
Any who accept that Roman Catholics can be Christians are instantly disqualified just because of the scandalous history of their organisation that brings Christ into disrepute,
Are the members of the Catholic Church also condemned because of the scandals of their leaders? If that's so, then there are a lot of evangelicals that will burn for supporting fallen televangelists over the years!
though of course the RCC declares Christians to be cursed anyway in its canons.
And you lost me here! As far as I am aware, the Catholic Church identifies itself as Christian.
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
spot;1338152 wrote: My word we've got a right one here. I've met Jehovah's Witnesses with a more ecumenical outlook.He sounds like me 30 years ago.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
Ahso!;1338161 wrote: He sounds like me 30 years ago.
I'm reminded of a Methodist Steward I knew years ago who quite unconsciously, when discussing ecumenical unity, referred to talks between Christians and Catholics. It's an uphill struggle a lot of the time.
I'm reminded of a Methodist Steward I knew years ago who quite unconsciously, when discussing ecumenical unity, referred to talks between Christians and Catholics. It's an uphill struggle a lot of the time.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
littleCJelkton;1337946 wrote: uh oh now your treading in to a a new and controversial paradigm. If the hunter/gather tribes came together through religion, then made city states---> kingdoms--->empires--->nations. Then would it be wrong to believe a world recognized religion would bring about a world government?
Where does he say that the tribes came together through religion - "It wasn't until agriculture and city-states, that groups of unrelated people started living together; and organized religion begins." does not imply that.
Where does he say that the tribes came together through religion - "It wasn't until agriculture and city-states, that groups of unrelated people started living together; and organized religion begins." does not imply that.
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
xyz;1337961 wrote: Not by Christians. Christians ignore what others call denominations, and together form one, united, invisible church, that will never form an earthly government.
Are you not the poster who called those who attended the ecumenical council at Nicaea "pagans"?
Are you not the poster who called those who attended the ecumenical council at Nicaea "pagans"?
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littleCJelkton
- Posts: 1215
- Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:57 pm
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
Bryn Mawr;1338321 wrote: Where does he say that the tribes came together through religion - "It wasn't until agriculture and city-states, that groups of unrelated people started living together; and organized religion begins." does not imply that.
That points out it right that the hunter/gather tribes are groups of related people right? and the groups of unrelated people are different hunter/gather tribes coming together. Since these tribes came to gether they shared simular beliefs in ther own view of religous ideals I assume that is why and how orginized religion becan to orginize as the groups of unrelated people started to living together.
I am sorry if my assumptions are wrong but I was doing my best to follow what RC had post. Though I am also one who if I see my friend with a Big Mac, Large fry, and a Coke would assume my friend went to Mcdonalds and order a number one, if the closest mcdonalds was the one in town heading west down the road out side of my house I would assume my friend went to that one. Now in truth my friend may have went to the one farther down in the next town going east, and/or he might of got a big mac seperately from the fries and coke, but those facts are so trivial as to what the outcome was that I do sometimes overlook them and if that is what I did here again I am sorry.
That points out it right that the hunter/gather tribes are groups of related people right? and the groups of unrelated people are different hunter/gather tribes coming together. Since these tribes came to gether they shared simular beliefs in ther own view of religous ideals I assume that is why and how orginized religion becan to orginize as the groups of unrelated people started to living together.
I am sorry if my assumptions are wrong but I was doing my best to follow what RC had post. Though I am also one who if I see my friend with a Big Mac, Large fry, and a Coke would assume my friend went to Mcdonalds and order a number one, if the closest mcdonalds was the one in town heading west down the road out side of my house I would assume my friend went to that one. Now in truth my friend may have went to the one farther down in the next town going east, and/or he might of got a big mac seperately from the fries and coke, but those facts are so trivial as to what the outcome was that I do sometimes overlook them and if that is what I did here again I am sorry.
Only those who give themselves to Jesus Christ will go to Heaven
littleCJelkton;1338341 wrote: That points out it right that the hunter/gather tribes are groups of related people right? and the groups of unrelated people are different hunter/gather tribes coming together. Since these tribes came to gether they shared simular beliefs in ther own view of religous ideals I assume that is why and how orginized religion becan to orginize as the groups of unrelated people started to living together.
I am sorry if my assumptions are wrong but I was doing my best to follow what RC had post. Though I am also one who if I see my friend with a Big Mac, Large fry, and a Coke would assume my friend went to Mcdonalds and order a number one, if the closest mcdonalds was the one in town heading west down the road out side of my house I would assume my friend went to that one. Now in truth my friend may have went to the one farther down in the next town going east, and/or he might of got a big mac seperately from the fries and coke, but those facts are so trivial as to what the outcome was that I do sometimes overlook them and if that is what I did here again I am sorry.
The difference is in the driver - did theycome together for religious reasons or did they come together for mutual protection / development / because the environment changed / economy of scale etc and the merging of the family groups then drove the development of the religion.
RC suggests the one and you assume the other and they are different animals with very different implications - especially when you use the assumption to posit moving to one religion driving a move to world government rather than continuing the theme which would suggest that moving to a world government would bring forth a common religion (not that I believe that it would, it's one thing for a merge of cultures to bring forth a new phenomenon, religion, but that does not suggest that a second merge of cultures would merge pre-existing religious beliefs. More likely the increased tolerance required to move to a world government would promote increased acceptance of religious differences).
I am sorry if my assumptions are wrong but I was doing my best to follow what RC had post. Though I am also one who if I see my friend with a Big Mac, Large fry, and a Coke would assume my friend went to Mcdonalds and order a number one, if the closest mcdonalds was the one in town heading west down the road out side of my house I would assume my friend went to that one. Now in truth my friend may have went to the one farther down in the next town going east, and/or he might of got a big mac seperately from the fries and coke, but those facts are so trivial as to what the outcome was that I do sometimes overlook them and if that is what I did here again I am sorry.
The difference is in the driver - did theycome together for religious reasons or did they come together for mutual protection / development / because the environment changed / economy of scale etc and the merging of the family groups then drove the development of the religion.
RC suggests the one and you assume the other and they are different animals with very different implications - especially when you use the assumption to posit moving to one religion driving a move to world government rather than continuing the theme which would suggest that moving to a world government would bring forth a common religion (not that I believe that it would, it's one thing for a merge of cultures to bring forth a new phenomenon, religion, but that does not suggest that a second merge of cultures would merge pre-existing religious beliefs. More likely the increased tolerance required to move to a world government would promote increased acceptance of religious differences).