What Would Convince You Jesus Was Here?

[telaquapacky]

Imagine if you will, your friends call you panicked and tell you to turn on the T.V. You find to your shock that on every channel there is a man that everyone is claiming is the Christ, having returned to earth again...

What would it take to convince you? What would he be doing? What would be the nature of his coming? What would be your criteria of credibility of any scenario of the second coming of Christ?

[David813]

telaquapacky wrote: Imagine if you will, your friends call you panicked and tell you to turn on the T.V. You find to your shock that on every channel there is a man that everyone is claiming is the Christ, having returned to earth again...



What would it take to convince you?All Christians flying up into the air and vanishing for good! FINALLY!!!

[Lon]

telaquapacky wrote: Imagine if you will, your friends call you panicked and tell you to turn on the T.V. You find to your shock that on every channel there is a man that everyone is claiming is the Christ, having returned to earth again...



What would it take to convince you? What would he be doing? What would be the nature of his coming? What would be your criteria of credibility of any scenario of the second coming of Christ?
Something simple like walking across San Francisco Bay or feeding all the street people with 40 fish would be nice.

[Ted]

I can definitely agree with JAB on this one.

Shalom

Ted :-6

[Ted]

flopstock :-6

I don't know about spontaneously combust but someone needs to put them straight. LOL.

Such an attitude, which is found among many Christians, is inconsistent with the Message that Yeshua of Nazareth presented and the same message that we find in the OT.

Shalom

Ted :-6

[Ted]

"His way was the only true religion. Yes?

Absolutely not. If one reads throughout the OT one will find the word path used often, in the sense of finding the correct path. Jesus was saying exactly the same thing. He was showing us the correct path. It was being demonstrated in his life and teachings which are neatly summed up in Micah 6:8.

Our clergy just presented a wonderful sermon on Sunday on the exclusivity of the Christian faith as opposed to the inclusivity preached by the fundamentalist/literalists. A position supported by many Biblical scholars as well.

Shalom

Ted :-6

[Wolverine]

is it me or didi you all have the '60s Twilight Zone guy reading this in your head?

I like Flopstock's idea. Funny stuff.

I am not Christian or "church going", But i have to agree with JAB. no one will have to convince me. I will just know.

[anastrophe]

since i have never read the bible, nor do i have one handy, can someone quote where jesus stated that he would "come back" to earth and there would be a rapture?

i think the whole rapture thing is poppycock. either jesus is alive, here, now, within your heart, or you're busy kidding yourself about something external that is meaningless. god does not exist 'outside'. if god is not within you, then it's not god you're thinking about.



imnsfho, of course.

[abbey]

telaquapacky wrote: What would it take to convince you? What would he be doing? What would be the nature of his coming? What would be your criteria of credibility of any scenario of the second coming of Christ?Turning the sea into chocolate chip ice cream would do it for me!

[Ted]

anastrophe :-6

Actually the rapture is never mentioned in the Bible. It arose out of an interpretation, I believe from Revelation. It is not part of the Biblical record. It is a good imaginative story that would make an excellent horror movie though.

Shalom

Ted :-6

[hotsauce]

If canaan told me...she tells me everything I need to know about religion.

[telaquapacky]

David813 wrote: All Christians flying up into the air and vanishing for good! FINALLY!!!David. Congratulations! You got the right Jesus. The catch is, there won’t be any humans left alive on earth after that. And I couldn’t give you my car even if I wanted to. It will probably be in the Police impound garage, or auctioned off by the State because I didn’t accept the mark of the beast and was thrown in the hoosgow to rot.

1 Thessalonians 4:16,17

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

2 Peter 3:10,11

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives

[telaquapacky]

Lon wrote: Something simple like walking across San Francisco Bay or feeding all the street people with 40 fish would be nice.Lon: So sorry! Your friends misinformed you. The guy on CNN walking on the SF Bay and feeding the street people was Satan disguised as Jesus. Try again!

2 Thessalonians 2:9

The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders

Matthew 24:24

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.

[telaquapacky]

JAB wrote: Well it sure as heck wouldn't be because of something I saw on TV!

When it happens - and it will - it will be known and there will be no question. I won't need a TV to announce it to me.Jab’s right on top of it. Probably nobody will be watching TV anyway.

Revelation 1:7

Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

Matthew 24:27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.



[QUOTE =Ted]I can definitely agree with JAB on this one. [/QUOTE]So right, Brother!

[telaquapacky]

flopstock wrote: I'm thinkin it would be kinda nice- if he could make all the folks who have taken it upon themselves to condem other groups and individuals to hell, because 'theirs' is the only true religion...spontaneously combustflopstock- you have hit upon one of the essential truths of Revelation. Chapters 14 and 17 show that all the professed believers in Christ are divided into two groups: One is deceived into following the antichrist and think that they are following Christ- and they are led to persecute the other group. The other group is persecuted because… it’s like, Satan attacked Christ while He was on earth, and now that Christ is gone from earth, Satan attacks Christ’s body on this earth, His true believers. The well-meaning Christian right in the United States who are trying to mix Church and State don’t know this, but they are unwittingly helping Satan set up this system out of which will come the mark of the beast and the persecution of the loving, true believers by the condemning false believers. By engaging in a condemning spirit and coercive politics, they will find themselves on the wrong side. All you have said will happen.

John 16:2,3

They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me.

Revelation 13:16-18

He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

Revelation 14:11,12

And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever*. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

*by the way, your spontaneous combustion idea is correct. Eternal hellfire is only symbolic of the destruction and cessation of existence of Satan and the lost- not their eternal, ongoing punishment.

Ezekiel 28:18, 19

By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries. So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching. All the nations who knew you are appalled at you; you have come to a horrible end and will be no more.'"

[telaquapacky]

canaan wrote: That's kinda funny since Jesus Himself said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me" Sounds like Jesus was one of those who taught that His way was the only true religion, yes?

On the question at hand: I would be leary of anyone who came claiming to be Jesussd since scripture tells us that the Anti-Christ will be preforming great miracles and deceiving many into thinking he was the Messiah. As far as I can tell, when Jesus comes back....it won't be to convince anyone of anything. It will be to clean house.Spoken like a careful Bible student!

[telaquapacky]

Ted wrote: "His way was the only true religion. Yes?

Absolutely not. If one reads throughout the OT one will find the word path used often, in the sense of finding the correct path. Jesus was saying exactly the same thing. He was showing us the correct path. It was being demonstrated in his life and teachings which are neatly summed up in Micah 6:8.

Our clergy just presented a wonderful sermon on Sunday on the exclusivity of the Christian faith as opposed to the inclusivity preached by the fundamentalist/literalists. A position supported by many Biblical scholars as well.

Shalom

Ted :-6Ted- that sermon topic sounds interesting. Why don't you start a thread on it?

[telaquapacky]

Wolverine wrote: is it me or didi you all have the '60s Twilight Zone guy reading this in your head?

I like Flopstock's idea. Funny stuff.

I am not Christian or "church going", But i have to agree with JAB. no one will have to convince me. I will just know.Wolverine- You caught me imitating Rod Serling! And yes- you will definitely know that it is Jesus when He comes. Anastrophe made a point that deserves consideration. We all need Jesus to come to us spiritually- because He is indeed coming to individuals in a spiritual way, and that is the needed preparation for when He comes physically in glory. I think you have a skeptical nature- that’s good! Stay skeptical about what men say, but open yourself to what God says. The day Jesus comes again could be a very good day for you!

“How do I tell the difference between what men say and what God says?” What God says is in the Bible- that’s your yardstick.

[telaquapacky]

anastrophe wrote: since i have never read the bible, nor do i have one handy, can someone quote where jesus stated that he would "come back" to earth and there would be a rapture?

i think the whole rapture thing is poppycock. either jesus is alive, here, now, within your heart, or you're busy kidding yourself about something external that is meaningless. god does not exist 'outside'. if god is not within you, then it's not god you're thinking about.



imnsfho, of course.Anastrophe- Great to get your input on this. There has long been a debate in the Christian community concerning whether the prophecies of Jesus’ second coming were about Jesus coming physically to earth under cataclysmic conditions, or whether life and business as usual on earth will go on indefinitely, and Jesus will only come spiritually and allegorically into the hearts of individual believers.

My take on it is both. Jesus has to come to dwell in the heart of a believer in order for that person to be saved. This is only possible through the Holy Spirit. Revelation talks about the seal of God, which is the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer. Revelation describes the seal of God just prior to the secocnd coming of Christ. The Bible does talk about the second coming of Jesus in many other places besides Rev, in both old and new testaments- I’ll give just a few references below. That event is the "beeg theeng" that is the fulfillment everything God's people have ever hoped for.

But you have made a very important point that a lot of second coming jocks sadly overlook. Jesus must come and live in us first, and we must enter His kingdom in a spiritual way now, in this present age. If we don’t enter His kingdom now, when He does come personally and physically, it will be too late for us to enter His kingdom then- Tuff Ruck!

Here are some second coming texts:

Acts 1:8-11

“But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Here are a couple from the old testament:

Isaiah 26:19-21

But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her; she will conceal her slain no longer.

Psalm 50:3-5

Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

But I haven’t answered your question. You wanted to hear it from Jesus himself. I only wanted to quote the other Scriptures to give the context to what Jesus was saying:

Mark 13:23-27

But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

John 6:39, 40

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 26:64

Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Luke 21:26-28

Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

One more thing. You said, “I think the whole rapture thing is poppycock.” You are exactly right. The modern concept of the secret rapture popularized by writers like Hal Lindsay and Tim LaHaye is fiction concocted to sell books.

[telaquapacky]

abbey wrote: Turning the sea into chocolate chip ice cream would do it for me!Make it to the wedding feast of the Lamb, and you’ll get all the chocolate chip ice cream you want forever!

[john8pies]

Very good question - because if it WERE Jesus or if it was only an impostor, he would still say, I presume, "I am Jesus".

Many people rejected him the first time around, and I expect many would this time, too.

However, if he immediately stopped a natural disaster (eg, the tsunami) then I would believe BUT this is SIGNS not FAITH so I`ve probably failed at the 1st hurdle.

[telaquapacky]

john8pies wrote: Very good question - because if it WERE Jesus or if it was only an impostor, he would still say, I presume, "I am Jesus".

Many people rejected him the first time around, and I expect many would this time, too.

However, if he immediately stopped a natural disaster (eg, the tsunami) then I would believe BUT this is SIGNS not FAITH so I`ve probably failed at the 1st hurdle.Wait, John- I think you're really on to something! When Jesus came the first time, certainly His miracles attracted people’s attention, but in the end the miracles by themselves did not convince His enemies. What separated those who accepted Him from those who rejected Him was faith, as you say. In John 7:17 Jesus described that kind of faith as when someone chooses God’s will. He said that if a person chooses God’s will, it would be revealed to that person that Jesus really was what He claimed He was. Looky:

John 7:17

If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

What you have said opens up the idea that if at this present time we seek to do God’s will- then, when the false Christ appears, we'll know whether he is or is not who he claims to be, and we will not be deceived. You've actually crossed a major hurdle because you know that miracles alone, no matter how big, are not a trustworthy criterion.

2 Thessalonians 2:9

The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders

Mark 13:22

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

Maybe the reason the elect cannot be deceived because they seek to do God’s will, and His Spirit prepares them not to be deceived by false Christs.

[koan]

What if you believed it was Jesus and he told everyone to throw away their bibles? Would you lose your faith? That would probably be the moment he would gain it.

What if Jesus comes back as a woman. Would that make it harder to believe?

[koan]

jackie wrote: Koan,

Are you the Messiah? LOL

Jackie Wellman

www.hoppy.bravehost.com


Yikes! Don't start that rumour. My enemies will be taunting me for years! LOL

jackie

[anastrophe]

one of the problems i have - and by that i really mean my own problem - is that i don't know if i'm a christian, and in some ways i 'don't want to be' a christian. part of it is the groucho marx creed - 'I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members'. i was raised in the christian church - episcopal; (the one joke i know, 'how many episcopalians does it take to screw in a light bulb? three. one to call the electrician, one to mix the drinks, and one to talk about how much better the old bulb was.'). i was 'confirmed' at 13 or so i think. but much of modern christianity turned me off, and from my teens on i pretty much rejected the church/christianity. the destruction of native/aboriginal societies by do-gooder missionaries intent on clothing the natives from the nakedness and 'civilizing' them angered me intensely. i then and now absolutely reject - despise - proselytizing. if your faith is good for you, fabulous. DON'T push it on others.



the curious thing is the history of faith in my family. my maternal grandfather was a christian missionary in persia at the beginning of the 20th century. he was pretty much a fundamentalist. yet he practiced yoga that he learned in his travels to india until the day he died. my mother studied theology at vassar, and went to seminary for a time, studying under paul tillich. my eldest brother is active in his baptist church, my other brother is vehemently anti-christian.



i'm fascinated by God, faith, the universe. i don't go to church.



decades ago, a cousin of mine who shall remain nameless was telling me why she's a 'christian' - it was along the lines of - 'so if there really is a jesus, then what harm is there in believing in him, just in case?'



that attitude appalled me. believing in jesus as a backup plan? 'plan B'? that's not what faith is about!



how does this all relate to what would convince me jesus was here? simple. nothing. there's no point to it. if you truly have faith, then what happens in the future is immaterial to your salvation, because you have faith. if you don't have faith - perhaps that's me, perhaps not - then what happens in the future is immaterial to your salvation, because 'you break it, you bought it'.



have i rambled enough? please, someone, pull the plug before i start talking about how coffee is my salvation.

[anastrophe]

JAB wrote: Christians aren't supposed to pull the plug, remember?!



I have to ask though, anastrophe, would it bother you less if you didn't have the 'label' of a Christian and were instead known as a 'just' a believer? Or is there no difference in your eyes?


the problem is, i don't know if i'm a believer or not. although belief isn't really it in my understanding. belief and faith are two different things i thought - two very different things.



i guess for me i hope it boils down to the sum of my acts. if i live a 'righteous' life, don't harm others unjustly or deprive them of their ability to live their life the way they choose, then 'hopefully' it won't matter. i recognize that i have 'sinned' or committed unjust acts in my life. 'hopefully' that recognition makes a difference. but either way - it's out of my hands, ultimately - if things are as they are to be.

[telaquapacky]

koan wrote: What if you believed it was Jesus and he told everyone to throw away their bibles? Would you lose your faith? That would probably be the moment he would gain it. Koan, you silly! First, this thread is a trick question. There’s scriptural evidence that before Christ returns, Satan will appear spectacularly and miraculously and impersonate Christ. This false Christ would be widely accepted and seen on every major news channel. Even if that interpretation were wrong, Jesus Himself warned that His coming would end the world as we know it, so He could not be walking around doing miracles or giving press conferences. Just the way I worded the thread-starter makes the “Christ” seen on the news, the false Christ. I wasn’t trying to “bait” anyone- I only wanted to break the ice and introduce a controversial topic in a gamey way (my weird idea of fun).

Secondly, Jesus resisted Satan’s first temptation in the wilderness, saying, “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.” St. John called Jesus “The Word.” I could not believe anyone was Jesus, or friends with Jesus, who would tell me to throw away my Bible.

Third, if a “Christ” figure appeared, and was universally accepted, and he told us all to throw away our Bibles, I would jump for joy (probably on my way to prison for defying him) because I would know everything I believed about prophecy was true.

koan wrote: What if Jesus comes back as a woman. Would that make it harder to believe?Jesus described Himself in his coming as the “Son of man.” I don’t see anything particularly sexist about it. I think it’s fair to assume Charles Lindbergh was a man and Amelia Earhardt was a woman, that William Cody was a man and Annie Oakley was a woman. All the information I have on Jesus says that He was a guy. Guess I’m sort of unoriginal that way.

1 Timothy 2:5

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

[telaquapacky]

Anastrophe wrote: one of the problems i have - and by that i really mean my own problem - is that i don't know if i'm a christian, and in some ways i 'don't want to be' a christian. part of it is the groucho marx creed - 'I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members'. i was raised in the christian church - episcopal; (the one joke i know, 'how many episcopalians does it take to screw in a light bulb? three. one to call the electrician, one to mix the drinks, and one to talk about how much better the old bulb was.'). i was 'confirmed' at 13 or so i think. but much of modern christianity turned me off, and from my teens on i pretty much rejected the church/christianity. the destruction of native/aboriginal societies by do-gooder missionaries intent on clothing the natives from the nakedness and 'civilizing' them angered me intensely. i then and now absolutely reject - despise - proselytizing. if your faith is good for you, fabulous. DON'T push it on others.I just wanted to tell you the wonderful new life I have found, and you too, Anastrophe, can have this new life… (just kidding!)

Yeah, missionaries have done some awful things. I could have done a lot better than I did. But have you ever thought that it was not Christianity that turned you off, but the Episcopalian version? As you know, Episcopalians recently appointed as a bishop, an openly practicing gay man. I mean, bless their hearts, they can do whatever they have an itchin’ to do, but you have to wonder how accurately they represent Christ’s teachings. I had a pretty confusing religious upbringing too, having been dragged by the ear by my father to a Baptist church, and then, when he left, by my grandmother to a Presbyterian church (Baptists traditionally disdain Presbys)- then I disappeared into a fog of cannibis smoke. I enjoyed better fellowship among my druggie friends than I had with Christians. My Mother and Stepfather were not churchgoers.

Anastrophe wrote: the curious thing is the history of faith in my family. my maternal grandfather was a christian missionary in persia at the beginning of the 20th century. he was pretty much a fundamentalist. yet he practiced yoga that he learned in his travels to india until the day he died. my mother studied theology at vassar, and went to seminary for a time, studying under paul tillich. my eldest brother is active in his baptist church, my other brother is vehemently anti-christian.

i'm fascinated by God, faith, the universe. i don't go to church.

decades ago, a cousin of mine who shall remain nameless was telling me why she's a 'christian' - it was along the lines of - 'so if there really is a jesus, then what harm is there in believing in him, just in case?'

that attitude appalled me. believing in jesus as a backup plan? 'plan B'? that's not what faith is about!Blaise Pascal invented that theory- and you’re right- it’s not a particularly spiritual reason to accept Christ. You and I have in common that we rebelled against the religious upbringing of our parents. As I said, my Mother and Stepfather were unchurched. When God led me to my present faith, it was not what they would have wanted (not to mention my first congregation was all black and I was the only white member, and they were scared spitless I would marry a black woman! They threatened to disown me).Anastrophe wrote: how does this all relate to what would convince me jesus was here? simple. nothing. there's no point to it. if you truly have faith, then what happens in the future is immaterial to your salvation, because you have faith. if you don't have faith - perhaps that's me, perhaps not - then what happens in the future is immaterial to your salvation, because 'you break it, you bought it'.

have i rambled enough? please, someone, pull the plug before i start talking about how coffee is my salvation.So praise de Lord and bring on de java!

[telaquapacky]

skittles2004 wrote: I would think he's the Anti-Christ.Ain't no fooling Skittles. Skittles' on the ball. Now the whole world will be out to geet us because we "rejected Christ." Wanna join me in my little hideout in the mountains 'til the Lord comes?

[gmc]

Nothing since I'm not a christian in the first place.

Quote from the God Channel (ah the joys of cable TV) "welcome to day nine of missions week" Even the guy saying it looked surprised. Clearly they keep going till they have made enough money.

Just be glad you live in a secular society where you are free to worship as you please which is more than a society where religon holds political power will allow. One of the more disturbing aspects of society today is the increased assertiveness of religious groups who while free to worship and live as they please feel compelled to try and interfere and control how everybody else behaves then wonder why people become hostile to them. far from being christian they seem to feel they have a god given right to judge people in the name of the lord using as always quotes from the bible to justify their petty prejudices and make life miserable for those who choose not to be like them-or they would if given half a chance. Hopefully in the UK calls or the laws on blasphemy to be extended to other faiths will result in them being repealed altogether

I have no problem with people of faith so long as they have no problem with my lack of it.

No offence intended in any of the above.

Came across this,

http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/fundy.html

Incidentally i'm not an atheist either, never made sense to me how can you believe in something that does not exist if you don't believe in the possibility it might in the first place, neither point of view is rational you either believe in god or you don't.

[Ted]

gmc :-6

An excellent post. I am in complete agreement.

Shalom

Ted :-6

[telaquapacky]

skittles2004 wrote: Sure! Why not! WERE ALL GOING TO DIE AND BE SENT TO HELL!!!!!!! :yh_rotfl I think my offer came out sounding in a way I didn't intend. I wouldn't invite you without the invitation extended to your significant other, and without consulting my wife first, and besides, we don't have a hideaway and don't plan on getting one.

Going to die? Maybe, maybe not.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Sent to Hell? Do you even consider that a possibility for yourself?

[telaquapacky]

gmc wrote: ...I have no problem with people of faith so long as they have no problem with my lack of it...

Came across this,

http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/fundy.html

Incidentally i'm not an atheist either, never made sense to me how can you believe in something that does not exist if you don't believe in the possibility it might in the first place, neither point of view is rational you either believe in god or you don't.GMC- you are without question one of the most thoughtful writers I have ever encountered. I read the “Fundy” website and both giggled with glee and flushed with embarrassment about how very true it is. Don’t forget that the people described in that piece are people I also have engaged in patient but futile debates- so I recognize (In America we spell recognize with a “z”) all those tactics and attitudes. I say “embarrassment” because I know the moment I wave a Bible in the air, I get lumped in with all those people- wrongly I might add!

A person I regard as having a prophetic gift wrote many years ago, that sometimes when a person rejects religion, their very act of rejection is an act of worship, because the particular religion presented to them was so full of error, the spirit in them couldn’t accept the twisted concept of God it held (I’m paraphrasing). The famed atheist, Voltaire wrote some things about his own concept of God that I found remarkably heart-warming and close to my own- Nothing would please me more than to see Voltaire surprised to find himself saved in heaven meeting God for the first time. (I know what you’re thinking- this isn’t a backhanded way of making you a Christian- lighten up, mate!)

GMC, if I had anything to say to you in particular, it would only be encouragement. You’ll need it. What I get from my own Bible study of end times events is that “Christian” fundamentalists will successfully take over the world’s great powers and force people to worship their way- the wrong way. I reached that conclusion before I joined any church. The church of which I am now a member has been predicting this for over 100 years. We are in the forefront of a resistance, vigorously defending freedom of conscience while we still can. What the fundamentalist, State-Church advocates don’t realize is that God doesn’t force people. He loves people. Eternal hellfire (besides being a totally false doctrine) doesn’t win people. It repels and disgusts. Their noontime will be the midnight of the world. The light that will break the darkness will be the second coming of Christ.

I don’t care to debate the existence of God with anyone. In spite of what they think, Atheists don’t own the monopoly on scientific acumen, intellectual honesty, sound judgment, guilelessness, human kindness or even good spelling and grammar. Atheists sometimes proselytize too.

[telaquapacky]

Ruewen wrote: Is he in need of money? Its just not jesus if someone isnt asking for money!

Im sure he would be on tv as you suggest more then likely pushing a dvd series called "sinners repent step 1-3"

I actually actually believed he never left... :sneaky:I hope you're joking. The Owner of the cattle on a thousand hills doesn't need your money. He wants your heart. But if your heart is tangled up in your money, don't blame Him if He can't have one without the other.

[telaquapacky]

anastrophe wrote: the problem is, i don't know if i'm a believer or not. although belief isn't really it in my understanding. belief and faith are two different things i thought - two very different things.



i guess for me i hope it boils down to the sum of my acts. if i live a 'righteous' life, don't harm others unjustly or deprive them of their ability to live their life the way they choose, then 'hopefully' it won't matter. i recognize that i have 'sinned' or committed unjust acts in my life. 'hopefully' that recognition makes a difference. but either way - it's out of my hands, ultimately - if things are as they are to be.Paul, you once got hissing mad at me when I mistakenly called you an unbeliever. I groveled, and your humble, gracious reply gave me high esteem for you. Now you have to think about it and you aren't so sure. Never mind. Belief is not always a cocksure confidence- sometimes it's a thoughtful uncertainty.

Faith can also be fragile. When I think about the second coming of Christ and the things that might precede it, I sometimes have a crisis in my own faith that I wonder how I would fare.

But perhaps we are splitting hairs. I haven't tried this, but I wouldn't be surprised if a Greek word study of New Testament texts of "Belief" and "Faith" revealed that they were derived from the same Greek word, and mean the same thing. I think what you mean by "belief" is intellectual assent to a body of doctrine. This is meaningless if you demur membership in an organized church, and just as well, because I don't think that kind of "belief" is what saves anyway.

I don't know what you mean by "faith." I see faith as being the ability to trust God and His love and care for me in spite of every evidence to the contrary. By this definition, my faith has never been tested, and I have to confess that in spite of my pollyannaish posts, I have failed minor pre-tests many times.

Job stated his faith very succinctly in Job 13:15 "Though he (God) slay me, yet will I trust Him."

Abraham showed the ultimate faith when he unquestioningly led his son Isaac to the altar to sacrifice him at God's command, though Isaac was the one through whom all the promises God ever made to Abraham would come. Abraham had come to the point where he knew God better than to think Isaac would really die and with him God's promises. Oh, for a faith like that.

The best chapter in the Bible on Faith is Hebrews 11. It contains my favorite quotation of all Scripture:

"And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jepthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies.

"Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated--

"The world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground. These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us, so that only together with us would they be made perfect."

[anastrophe]

telaquapacky wrote: Yeah, missionaries have done some awful things. I could have done a lot better than I did. But have you ever thought that it was not Christianity that turned you off, but the Episcopalian version? never considered it. doesn't really matter to me what flavor it is. it's all made from the same cloth.



As you know, Episcopalians recently appointed as a bishop, an openly practicing gay man. I mean, bless their hearts, they can do whatever they have an itchin’ to do, but you have to wonder how accurately they represent Christ’s teachings.
if you can produce evidence from _christ's_ teachings that says that a bishop cannot be an openly practicing gay man, then that will be enough for me to finally reject christianity totally. there's an assortment of quotes from the old testament that i've heard of, various quotes here and there by others, but i don't think jesus ever spoke about homosexuality in any manner whatsoever. jesus's kinship was with sinners, not saints. unless you're suggesting that either a) bishops must be free of sin (impossible by christ's teachings) or b)that homosexuality is a 'special' sin that jesus in particular condemned, then i've no use for much more from you. sorry to be blunt. i absolutely reject any notion that homosexuality is a sin any different from any of the other sins we all commit. if it is a sin, it is to be forgiven by God. period, end of story. i do not believe jesus would say 'you cannot be a bishop if you are gay, because you are a sinner'. he would say "you are particularly qualified to be a bishop if you are gay, because you are a sinner, as am i". that's my guess.

[capt_buzzard]

Ted wrote: I can definitely agree with JAB on this one.



Shalom

Ted :-6here,here

[telaquapacky]

anastrophe wrote: never considered it. doesn't really matter to me what flavor it is. It's all made from the same cloth... I see you haven't thought about it. I don't suppose it would do me any good to tell you there is a distinct difference between my faith and Episcopalian. Do you always paint with so broad a brush?



anastrophe wrote: ...if you can produce evidence from christ's teachings that says that a bishop cannot be an openly practicing gay man, then that will be enough for me to finally reject christianity totally.Would you also reject Christianity totally if I told you a practicing hooker shouldn't be a female bishop? Maybe you have rejected it already without knowing it.

anastrophe wrote: sorry to be blunt. i absolutely reject any notion that homosexuality is a sin any different from any of the other sins we all commit. Sexual orientation, I'm told, is not something people have control over. Sexual practice is. I have a very close and very dear friend in my church who is homosexual in his orientation, but celibate, and by God's grace keeps his thoughts and actions in check. No sin is any worse than another, and God hasn't set a limit of severity of sin beyond which one can not be saved. I don't look down on gays as if my sins are less offensive to God. But every sin, no matter how large or small is painful to God because sin damages us. You might check out my "Dichotomy" threads.

anastrophe wrote: if it is a sin, it is to be forgiven by God. period, end of story. i do not believe jesus would say 'you cannot be a bishop if you are gay, because you are a sinner'. he would say "you are particularly qualified to be a bishop if you are gay, because you are a sinner, as am i". that's my guess.I don't know if what you are saying here is Episcopalian theology, but it sounds like the ever-popular "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven." I guess a lot of people look at sin as "I love to do x but I'll have to reluctantly give it up to go to heaven." or, "Whoopie! I don't have to give up x to go to heaven because I am forgiven and can x 'til the cows come home." (x equals any sin- fill in the blank)

Maybe this sounds strange to you, but some of us, though we have in the past got a lot of jollies from x, since we have come to Jesus, we see x as an undesirable thing. Heaven would be pointless to us if we were still in compulsive slavery to x. We know we need forgiveness of x to approach God. But the more time we spend in the presence of God the more ugly and offensive our own x appears to us, and the more we want to be free of it. Forgiveness, then, though it is indespensible to my salvation, isn't by itself salvation. There is a second element called Sanctification that is also an essential ingredient of salvation. Sanctification is "being made holy." X unquestionably isn't holy. Sin is not holy. A holy life is one where x might not be completely absent, but it isn't in control anymore. Sanctification is the process whereby I am not only cleansed from the guilt of sin, but freed from the power of sin- that compulsive urge to sin.

Salvation consists of Justification (forgiveness), Sanctification (being made holy, overcoming sin by God's healing power), and a third element: Glorification. Glorification is being transformed physically from mortality to immortality, and transported to heaven when Jesus comes. Can I do anything in my own effort to help transform myself into an immortal, or wing my way to another galaxy? What am I going to do? Eat the right foods? Flap my arms like chicken wings help provide more propulsion for the flight to heaven? There's nothing I can do. And likewise, there is nothing I can do to help God accomplish either Justification or Sanctification in me. Those both are entirely His work. I only have to choose to allow or desire Him to do that. I have to decide, "this x, man, this gotta go." If I cling to x or look for excuses to hold on to it, then God, as all-powerful as He is, can do nothing for me.

Now. Present what I just said to any Episcopalian minister, and you ask him if this is cut from the same cloth as Episcopalianism. Try it. I dare ya.

As for a open, practicing homosexual being a minister of the gospel, let alone a bishop- a minister of high denominational leadership- I have this to say: It doesn't matter what sin, sexual immorality, theft, overweening pride, lying-- could be any sin. If a church teaches that sin is an undesirable thing that we in our fondest dreams wish for freedom from, and wish to overcome; we would want a religious leader of our congregation who leads us in the direction of overcoming. We would want someone who sets an example of a sanctified life. If, on the other hand, forgiveness is all you want, and you want to wallow in and indulge in whatever sin, only escape the consequences, then who cares who your minister is or what he or she does in full view of the world?

Another thing. A Muslim friend once explained his religion to me. If at the end of his life, the tally sheet of his good deeds outweighs his bad deeds by a grain, he's saved. Islam doesn't require the Son of God to die on a cross for human sins. They can pay them off themselves by doing good deeds and earning brownie points for Allah. Nice, huh? You have to ask yourself what heaven would be like if it were populated by people who stabbed you in the back and then tossed the bums a dime to compensate for it.

[telaquapacky]

skittles2004 wrote: [QUOTE= telaquapacky]Ain't no fooling Skittles. Skittles' on the ball. Now the whole world will be out to geet us because we "rejected Christ." Wanna join me in my little hideout in the mountains 'til the Lord comes?Sure! Why not! WERE ALL GOING TO DIE AND BE SENT TO HELL!!!!!!![/QUOTE]I am very embarrassed by my poor choice of words, and I never adequately apologized to Skittles for this. This was no proposition as you supposed. I think married guys who make passes at women are rats. I would never do that.

Some of us believe that there will be perilous times in the last days, and that God's people will be persecuted. Some of my friends have purchased land in remote rural areas to retreat to if persecution begins, and to live there quiet lives apart from the storms of the outside world, in complete obedience to all ten of God's commandments, faithfully awaiting the coming of our Lord. This isn't survivalism- it would only be to buy time. There are many high or low tech ways the authorities can find you if they want you. Only if you live far away it takes them a little longer to commit the resources and manpower to apprehend you, and maybe they'll have other fish to fry.

Do a Google and read about the Waldensians. They did this during the Inquisition and the Crusades. That's what I was talking about. Again, my sincerest and deepest apologies for writing carelessly.

[anastrophe]

telaquapacky wrote: I see you haven't thought about it. I don't suppose it would do me any good to tell you there is a distinct difference between my faith and Episcopalian. Do you always paint with so broad a brush?



Would you also reject Christianity totally if I told you a practicing hooker shouldn't be a female bishop? Maybe you have rejected it already without knowing it.



Sexual orientation, I'm told, is not something people have control over. Sexual practice is. I have a very close and very dear friend in my church who is homosexual in his orientation, but celibate, and by God's grace keeps his thoughts and actions in check. No sin is any worse than another, and God hasn't set a limit of severity of sin beyond which one can not be saved. I don't look down on gays as if my sins are less offensive to God. But every sin, no matter how large or small is painful to God because sin damages us. You might check out my "Dichotomy" threads.



I don't know if what you are saying here is Episcopalian theology, but it sounds like the ever-popular "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven." I guess a lot of people look at sin as "I love to do x but I'll have to reluctantly give it up to go to heaven." or, "Whoopie! I don't have to give up x to go to heaven because I am forgiven and can x 'til the cows come home." (x equals any sin- fill in the blank)



Maybe this sounds strange to you, but some of us, though we have in the past got a lot of jollies from x, since we have come to Jesus, we see x as an undesirable thing. Heaven would be pointless to us if we were still in compulsive slavery to x. We know we need forgiveness of x to approach God. But the more time we spend in the presence of God the more ugly and offensive our own x appears to us, and the more we want to be free of it. Forgiveness, then, though it is indespensible to my salvation, isn't by itself salvation. There is a second element called Sanctification that is also an essential ingredient of salvation. Sanctification is "being made holy." X unquestionably isn't holy. Sin is not holy. A holy life is one where x might not be completely absent, but it isn't in control anymore. Sanctification is the process whereby I am not only cleansed from the guilt of sin, but freed from the power of sin- that compulsive urge to sin.



Salvation consists of Justification (forgiveness), Sanctification (being made holy, overcoming sin by God's healing power), and a third element: Glorification. Glorification is being transformed physically from mortality to immortality, and transported to heaven when Jesus comes. Can I do anything in my own effort to help transform myself into an immortal, or wing my way to another galaxy? What am I going to do? Eat the right foods? Flap my arms like chicken wings help provide more propulsion for the flight to heaven? There's nothing I can do. And likewise, there is nothing I can do to help God accomplish either Justification or Sanctification in me. Those both are entirely His work. I only have to choose to allow or desire Him to do that. I have to decide, "this x, man, this gotta go." If I cling to x or look for excuses to hold on to it, then God, as all-powerful as He is, can do nothing for me.



Now. Present what I just said to any Episcopalian minister, and you ask him if this is cut from the same cloth as Episcopalianism. Try it. I dare ya.



As for a open, practicing homosexual being a minister of the gospel, let alone a bishop- a minister of high denominational leadership- I have this to say: It doesn't matter what sin, sexual immorality, theft, overweening pride, lying-- could be any sin. If a church teaches that sin is an undesirable thing that we in our fondest dreams wish for freedom from, and wish to overcome; we would want a religious leader of our congregation who leads us in the direction of overcoming. We would want someone who sets an example of a sanctified life. If, on the other hand, forgiveness is all you want, and you want to wallow in and indulge in whatever sin, only escape the consequences, then who cares who your minister is or what he or she does in full view of the world?



Another thing. A Muslim friend once explained his religion to me. If at the end of his life, the tally sheet of his good deeds outweighs his bad deeds by a grain, he's saved. Islam doesn't require the Son of God to die on a cross for human sins. They can pay them off themselves by doing good deeds and earning brownie points for Allah. Nice, huh? You have to ask yourself what heaven would be like if it were populated by people who stabbed you in the back and then tossed the bums a dime to compensate for it.
we will have to agree to disagree. i have nothing more to discuss with you on these matters; we are diametrically opposed and unlikely to influence each other. i wish you the best in all your endeavors.

[koan]

What happened telaquapacky? Did you have an epiphany?

I think there is no one left on Earth who truly knows what exactly Jesus meant by anything. Seeing as how the world has changed a lot since then I think he would speak in much different terms if he were to return/ has returned. And the idea that one man can change a whole world just by talking is highly unlikely in my mind. David Copperfield performs miracles on national tv. We have become quite immune to wonder.