Fear--Dissension--Hate

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:22 pm

In my life time I have never seen and heard so much fear dissension and hate as seems to exist right now in the United States. There seems to be nothing but lunatics on both the right and the left of the political spectrum with no intention of seeking a middle ground on any issues. There is no clear cut consensus of right or wrong, fair or unfair, moral or immoral. I GOT MINE---YOU GET YOURS--is the order of the day.

I'm looking forward to my two month visit to New Zealand on the 28th of February where I can observe a modicum of civility amongst the populace and politicians.

along-for-the-ride · Post by **along-for-the-ride** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:51 pm

Okay.............I'll ask. Who have you been hanging around with lately?

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:01 pm

YouTube - Pants On The Ground !!! American Idol Season 9 -Larry Platt (HQ) [Remix]

Post by **LarsMac** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:25 pm

I wondered what folks were talking about, but never seen it before.

Hilarious.

Meanwhile, I have spent a wonderful week in Toronto, and haven't seen TV news from the States all week.

How refreshing.

If I thought I could talk the wife into it, I might apply for immigration.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:14 pm

LarsMac;1288432 wrote: I wondered what folks were talking about, but never seen it before.

Hilarious.

Meanwhile, I have spent a wonderful week in Toronto, and haven't seen TV news from the States all week.

How refreshing.

If I thought I could talk the wife into it, I might apply for immigration.just stop watching the news - thats what I did.

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:38 pm

Ahso!;1288439 wrote: just stop watching the news - thats what I did.

That explains a lot.:wah:

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:17 pm

LarsMac;1288432 wrote: I wondered what folks were talking about, but never seen it before.

Hilarious.

Meanwhile, I have spent a wonderful week in Toronto, and haven't seen TV news from the States all week.

How refreshing.

If I thought I could talk the wife into it, I might apply for immigration.

We would be honored to have you both here with us.:-6

I know tons of great shopping places to take her!:wah:

Omni_Skittles · Post by **Omni_Skittles** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:36 pm

Lon;1288399 wrote: In my life time I have never seen and heard so much fear dissension and hate as seems to exist right now in the United States. There seems to be nothing but lunatics on both the right and the left of the political spectrum with no intention of seeking a middle ground on any issues. There is no clear cut consensus of right or wrong, fair or unfair, moral or immoral. I GOT MINE---YOU GET YOURS--is the order of the day.

I'm looking forward to my two month visit to New Zealand on the 28th of February where I can observe a modicum of civility amongst the populace and politicians.
Postmodernism... got to love it

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 5:37 am

Lon;1288399 wrote: In my life time I have never seen and heard so much fear dissension and hate as seems to exist right now in the United States. There seems to be nothing but lunatics on both the right and the left of the political spectrum with no intention of seeking a middle ground on any issues. There is no clear cut consensus of right or wrong, fair or unfair, moral or immoral. I GOT MINE---YOU GET YOURS--is the order of the day.

I'm looking forward to my two month visit to New Zealand on the 28th of February where I can observe a modicum of civility amongst the populace and politicians.

I couldn't agree more. No wonder nothing gets done. Its sickening. I believe thats why the tea party is getting looked at by so many but even that is a cluster **** because their members belong to every spectrum of the political scale. Its only a matter of time before dissension arises. Its grass roots now but if they get serious about entering the presidential race they had better get organized quick. More likely the Republican party will try to coax them in.

I also believe a big part of the problem is those bobble heads on TV yak away..yak yak yak :-5

They're fatalists that swear the end of the world is coming and people buy into it. Its like mass hysteria.

We are seriously ****** up.

Elone · Post by **Elone** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:51 pm

Lon;1288399 wrote: There seems to be nothing but lunatics on both the right and the left of the political spectrum with no intention of seeking a middle ground on any issues. There is no clear cut consensus of right or wrong, fair or unfair, moral or immoral. I GOT MINE---YOU GET YOURS--is the order of the day.

It is called good old American Greed! There is a backstabbing, step-on-the-head-of-anyone-in-your-way scramble to get to the head of the class in the political arena. This is because once you make to the National level there are millions of dollars to be made from corporate lobbyists. You know there is a major problem when a Presidential candidate spends $120,000,000 to obtain a $400,000 a year job. I see it only getting better now that the Supreme Court made it legal for corporations to openly donate to political campaigns.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:01 pm

Lon;1288399 wrote: In my life time I have never seen and heard so much fear dissension and hate as seems to exist right now in the United States. There seems to be nothing but lunatics on both the right and the left of the political spectrum with no intention of seeking a middle ground on any issues. There is no clear cut consensus of right or wrong, fair or unfair, moral or immoral. I GOT MINE---YOU GET YOURS--is the order of the day.

I'm looking forward to my two month visit to New Zealand on the 28th of February where I can observe a modicum of civility amongst the populace and politicians.

You're lucky you can escape. I understand many Americans are trapped without passports and unable to leave, many others, I understand, are terrified to buy a plane ticket in case they need the money to pay a medical bill. Here in the UK we are grateful that they don't know they would receive free medical treatment if they took ill while on holiday.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:35 pm

gmc;1288797 wrote: You're lucky you can escape. I understand many Americans are trapped without passports and unable to leave, many others, I understand, are terrified to buy a plane ticket in case they need the money to pay a medical bill. Here in the UK we are grateful that they don't know they would receive free medical treatment if they took ill while on holiday.

Trapped without passports? I haven't heard about this. Two of my grandchildren just applied and received passports. Who has been denied?

Terrified to buy a plane ticket? Most seem to just have a fear of flying or of a bomber.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:40 am

Lon;1288799 wrote: Trapped without passports? I haven't heard about this. Two of my grandchildren just applied and received passports. Who has been denied?

Terrified to buy a plane ticket? Most seem to just have a fear of flying or of a bomber.

I was kidding. I gather some 80%+ of americans don't possess a passport. I assumed it was hard to get one:sneaky:. I think going abroad would reassure them that life is not as miserable as they think it is and other people don't necessarily live in terror of their neighbours shooting them. Mind you finding out other nations don't worry themselves sick about medical bills and believe access to medical care is a right might be a bit if a culture shock.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:55 am

gmc;1288868 wrote: I was kidding. I gather some 80%+ of americans don't possess a passport. I assumed it was hard to get one:sneaky:. I think going abroad would reassure them that life is not as miserable as they think it is and other people don't necessarily live in terror of their neighbours shooting them. Mind you finding out other nations don't worry themselves sick about medical bills and believe access to medical care is a right might be a bit if a culture shock.

I am amazed at how many people that I know that have no interest in travel of any kind, not even within their own state. These same people also seem to show a lack of interest in other people or cultures. Makes for a real informed electorate doesn't it?:-3

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:42 am

Lon;1288883 wrote: I am amazed at how many people that I know that have no interest in travel of any kind, not even within their own state. These same people also seem to show a lack of interest in other people or cultures. Makes for a real informed electorate doesn't it?:-3

We have the same sort of problem. I know people who go abroad every year but have never explored their own country and when they do go abroad they spent their time lying on the beach and don't really make the effort to explore or find out anything about where they are visiting. On the other hand they do go actually go abroad so I suppose that is something. I'm going to wales this year-that's a foreign country:D

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:26 am

I agree, Lon. Americans used to be proud about the fact that we could get lots of things done through compromise when other countries couldn't. Those days are gone. People are rabidly picking sides and digging in even when someone proposes a good idea!

I'm not watching politics anymore, it's too depressing.:-3

minks · Post by **minks** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:41 am

it a shame that negativity beats positivity when it comes to "news"

southern yankee · Post by **southern yankee** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:31 pm

Lon;1288399 wrote: In my life time I have never seen and heard so much fear dissension and hate as seems to exist right now in the United States. There seems to be nothing but lunatics on both the right and the left of the political spectrum with no intention of seeking a middle ground on any issues. There is no clear cut consensus of right or wrong, fair or unfair, moral or immoral. I GOT MINE---YOU GET YOURS--is the order of the day.

I'm looking forward to my two month visit to New Zealand on the 28th of February where I can observe a modicum of civility amongst the populace and politicians. Lon do you think it could be since the great depression. there really has not been this rough of times. we are spoild. a country of "i wants." never really sufferd as a poor nation has sufferd." a go out and get it " group that we have become. Like a child. I WANT IT, AND I WANT IT NOW!!!!. throwing fits and all. Not many who were children of the depression are alive today. If they were and are. we need to listen to what things were like back then. Also how truly blessed we are now, compared to then.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:07 pm

southern yankee;1289204 wrote: Lon do you think it could be since the great depression. there really has not been this rough of times. we are spoild. a country of "i wants." never really sufferd as a poor nation has sufferd." a go out and get it " group that we have become. Like a child. I WANT IT, AND I WANT IT NOW!!!!. throwing fits and all. Not many who were children of the depression are alive today. If they were and are. we need to listen to what things were like back then. Also how truly blessed we are now, compared to then.

Having been born in 1934 I think it is safe to say that I was a child of the depression.

My first crib was the top drawer of my parents dresser.

Despite having access to virtually unlimited information, many choose not to access it or even be aware that it is possible to access it, and as a result there has become a real DUMBING DOWN of much of the U.S. population. Chronic self indulgence and limited interests can create a death knell in any society.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:47 pm

What are the "chronic self indulgences" you're referring to, Lon?

What is an opposite example of "limited interests"? And whats wrong with it anyway?

I'd agree there is unlimited information out there, but not all of it is true or healthy. One must be able to discriminate between useful and unless information. As humans we tend to give credence to who is delivering the information and we then swallow the information itself. That should be a strong enough filter but unfortunately it has been subjugated by money and influence.

I must disagree that "dumbing down" is the result of lack of information. I'd go with "innocence" at best, and "naivety" at worst. "Dumbing down" would be education contrary to fact or evidence, such as "creationism" or "intelligent design" as opposed to "evolutionary theory."

It seems to me what is destroying our society is the influence of money and not lack of interest. If those with so much interest would simply calm down a bit on the greed, we'd be a lot better off.

Amythest · Post by **Amythest** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:48 pm

Wondering WHY there's so much Fear_ Dissension_Hate?

I can't post url's yet ( 15 posts? who made that rule?LOL)

watch the movie Zeitgeist. at Zeitgeist.com

There's a piece of the puzzle.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:24 pm

Ahso!;1289251 wrote: What are the "chronic self indulgences" you're referring to, Lon?

What is an opposite example of "limited interests"? And whats wrong with it anyway?

I'd agree there is unlimited information out there, but not all of it is true or healthy. One must be able to discriminate between useful and unless information. As humans we tend to give credence to who is delivering the information and we then swallow the information itself. That should be a strong enough filter but unfortunately it has been subjugated by money and influence.

I must disagree that "dumbing down" is the result of lack of information. I'd go with "innocence" at best, and "naivety" at worst. "Dumbing down" would be education contrary to fact or evidence, such as "creationism" or "intelligent design" as opposed to "evolutionary theory."

It seems to me what is destroying our society is the influence of money and not lack of interest. If those with so much interest would simply calm down a bit on the greed, we'd be a lot better off.

Self Indulgence in eating (increase in obesity), self indulgence in spending (bankruptcies & mortgage foreclosures and credit card debt ,over indulgence in sexual activities Increased divorce rate & broken families)

Let's face it---on the whole we have a pretty dumb society---most could not even find Haiti on a map, couldn't tell you the capital of the state they live in, couldn't tell you the name of the Speaker of the House, etc., etc, etc.

While the Mortgage Lenders and Banks were guilty as hell for much of the mortgage crisis the home buyers were pretty stupid to think they could buy a $400,000 home with little down and a annual income of $45,000 when they were previously turned down as renters because of bad credit.

INNOCENCE --- NAIVETY ----THAT'S TOO POLITE-----I THINK STUPID FITS BETTER

Not understanding basic math (interest rates--mortgages---credit etc) is an example of limited interests. The basic tools of survival in a modern society. It doesn't require a PhD from Harvard, just common sense and some interest in the community and world in which you live.

Amythest · Post by **Amythest** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:37 pm

Lon;1289297 wrote: Self Indulgence in eating (increase in obesity), self indulgence in spending (bankruptcies & mortgage foreclosures and credit card debt ,over indulgence in sexual activities Increased divorce rate & broken families)

Let's face it---on the whole we have a pretty dumb society---most could not even find Haiti on a map, couldn't tell you the capital of the state they live in, couldn't tell you the name of the Speaker of the House, etc., etc, etc.

While the Mortgage Lenders and Banks were guilty as hell for much of the mortgage crisis the home buyers were pretty stupid to think they could buy a $400,000 home with little down and a annual income of $45,000 when they were previously turned down as renters because of bad credit.

INNOCENCE --- NAIVETY ----THAT'S TOO POLITE-----I THINK STUPID FITS BETTER

Not understanding basic math (interest rates--mortgages---credit etc) is an example of limited interests. The basic tools of survival in a modern society. It doesn't require a PhD from Harvard, just common sense and some interest in the community and world in which you live.

How does one equate indulgence in sexual activities with being bad? Social conditioning? The divorce rate is about emotional intimacy NOT sexual activity.

Is Monogamy REALLY part of our instinctive behaviour? I mean really! There's been many experiments on Human sexuality and "cheating" is basically a survival mechanism. Plan A and Plan B. If poeple were truly open and loving it wouldn't be cheating. It would be "sharing".

Monogamy comes from religious dogma. The whole social structure we live by is deeply flawed. It all starts with religion.imho

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:44 pm

Lon;1289297 wrote: Self Indulgence in eating (increase in obesity), self indulgence in spending (bankruptcies & mortgage foreclosures and credit card debt ,over indulgence in sexual activities Increased divorce rate & broken families)

Let's face it---on the whole we have a pretty dumb society---most could not even find Haiti on a map, couldn't tell you the capital of the state they live in, couldn't tell you the name of the Speaker of the House, etc., etc, etc.

While the Mortgage Lenders and Banks were guilty as hell for much of the mortgage crisis the home buyers were pretty stupid to think they could buy a $400,000 home with little down and a annual income of $45,000 when they were previously turned down as renters because of bad credit.

INNOCENCE --- NAIVETY ----THAT'S TOO POLITE-----I THINK STUPID FITS BETTER

Not understanding basic math (interest rates--mortgages---credit etc) is an example of limited interests. The basic tools of survival in a modern society. It doesn't require a PhD from Harvard, just common sense and some interest in the community and world in which you live.Sound like an indictment of our educational system more than anything else. Everything you mentioned is school related except for the family breakdown, but that could also be traced to the amount of time we spend being members of organizations, professions, school and after school activities as opposed to being family members.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:52 pm

Amythest;1289300 wrote: How does one equate indulgence in sexual activities with being bad? Social conditioning? The divorce rate is about emotional intimacy NOT sexual activity.

Is Monogamy REALLY part of our instinctive behaviour? I mean really! There's been many experiments on Human sexuality and "cheating" is basically a survival mechanism. Plan A and Plan B. If poeple were truly open and loving it wouldn't be cheating. It would be "sharing".

Monogamy comes from religious dogma. The whole social structure we live by is deeply flawed. It all starts with religion.imhoThats quite a post, Amy. I completely agree with every word of it.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:27 pm

Amythest;1289300 wrote: How does one equate indulgence in sexual activities with being bad? Social conditioning? The divorce rate is about emotional intimacy NOT sexual activity.

Is Monogamy REALLY part of our instinctive behaviour? I mean really! There's been many experiments on Human sexuality and "cheating" is basically a survival mechanism. Plan A and Plan B. If poeple were truly open and loving it wouldn't be cheating. It would be "sharing".

Monogamy comes from religious dogma. The whole social structure we live by is deeply flawed. It all starts with religion.imho

I am not talking about just marriage or fidelity and certainly there is nothing wrong with sex. I am talking about the obsessiveness of sex wherein it takes control of one's life. It's on the increase and as the saying goes "moderation in all things".

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:34 pm

Ahso!;1289301 wrote: Sound like an indictment of our educational system more than anything else. Everything you mentioned is school related except for the family breakdown, but that could also be traced to the amount of time we spend being members of organizations, professions, school and after school activities as opposed to being family members.

Let's not blame everything on the school system. If you knew you were going to cross a desert would you expect the school system to tell you to be sure and take water.

It's very easy to blame every thing that we don't know on the school system or our parents. That's a real cop out.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:27 pm

Lon;1289303 wrote: I am not talking about just marriage or fidelity and certainly there is nothing wrong with sex. I am talking about the obsessiveness of sex wherein it takes control of one's life. It's on the increase and as the saying goes "moderation in all things".What makes you thinks obsessive sex is on the increase and taking control of peoples lives? Can you point to a study or something which illustrates generational comparisons?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:41 pm

Lon;1289304 wrote: Let's not blame everything on the school system. If you knew you were going to cross a desert would you expect the school system to tell you to be sure and take water.

It's very easy to blame every thing that we don't know on the school system or our parents. That's a real cop out.I haven't blamed anything on anyone in this thread. You said people cannot read maps, do math and understand spending to savings ratios, those are lessons learned in the school system and has nothing to do with desert survival. I think it would be helpful to stick to a subject and resist the use irrelevant analogies.

The fact is you're claiming people do not possess the skills necessary to survive in a modern world and are claiming its because they are stupid people. Unless people are being born these day's with the capacity to know where Haiti is on the map and understand the stock market and basic accounting, then those are lessons learned by our educational system, no?

I prefer to give people credit even though it may appear they do to deserve it. I never am sure whats going on in the lives of others to say whether or not they are stupid.

But what does any of this have to do with the thread title? Other than it sounds like you may hate stupid people?

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:53 am

Ahso!;1289311 wrote: I haven't blamed anything on anyone in this thread. You said people cannot read maps, do math and understand spending to savings ratios, those are lessons learned in the school system and has nothing to do with desert survival. I think it would be helpful to stick to a subject and resist the use irrelevant analogies.

The fact is you're claiming people do not possess the skills necessary to survive in a modern world and are claiming its because they are stupid people. Unless people are being born these day's with the capacity to know where Haiti is on the map and understand the stock market and basic accounting, then those are lessons learned by our educational system, no?

I prefer to give people credit even though it may appear they do to deserve it. I never am sure whats going on in the lives of others to say whether or not they are stupid.

But what does any of this have to do with the thread title? Other than it sounds like you may hate stupid people?

By your logic then -- it sounds like you are saying that all learning is extrinsic --that people don't know enough to get out of the rain unless they are told to do so.

I believe we are born with a certain measure of curiosity (demonstrated by infants) and that this curiosity leads to self awareness and basic self education that can be readily diminished as time goes on by a society that provides too much

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:55 am

Ahso!;1289309 wrote: What makes you thinks obsessive sex is on the increase and taking control of peoples lives? Can you point to a study or something which illustrates generational comparisons?

Can you point to a study that says it is not?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:47 am

Lon;1289352 wrote: Can you point to a study that says it is not?I'm not making the claim, you are.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:50 am

Lon;1289351 wrote: By your logic then -- it sounds like you are saying that all learning is extrinsic --that people don't know enough to get out of the rain unless they are told to do so.

I believe we are born with a certain measure of curiosity (demonstrated by infants) and that this curiosity leads to self awareness and basic self education that can be readily diminished as time goes on by a society that provides too muchYou're saying then geography and accounting are innate?

I think you're just having a couple of bad hair day's.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:31 am

Ahso!;1289359 wrote: You're saying then geography and accounting are innate?

I think you're just having a couple of bad hair day's.

Geography just requires a wee bit of curiosity and interest outside of one's personal world and it does not require a BS in accounting to know that a variable interest rate means just that----------VARIABLE------and actually, I am having a fine day so far even better than yesterday. My hair? It's there.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:41 am

Lon;1289371 wrote: Geography just requires a wee bit of curiosity and interest outside of one's personal world and it does not require a BS in accounting to know that a variable interest rate means just that----------VARIABLE------and actually, I am having a fine day so far even better than yesterday. My hair? It's there.Is geography and basic accounting it? Perhaps you could make a comprehensive list of all the things people need to know. Maybe you could brake it down to show which things at what age. I guess the model for our goal would be you? Or should it be someone else? I've got an idea: why not just clone you?:wah:

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:44 am

BTW - I could find Haiti on a map provided each country and continent is labeled. Am I okay with you? Or should the map be like a white sheet of paper with only black outline drawing. Those are the hardest ones for me.

Amythest · Post by **Amythest** » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:53 am

Lon;1289303 wrote: I am not talking about just marriage or fidelity and certainly there is nothing wrong with sex. I am talking about the obsessiveness of sex wherein it takes control of one's life. It's on the increase and as the saying goes "moderation in all things".

Lon. AH! that is different! With the internet it makes it easier to feed these obsessions.

Even the sex industry is changing. The interent widened the scope for sexual activity, so the contact sex trades ( prostitutes, escorts, strip clubs etc) are forcing the workers to lower their prices and take higher risks.Before the internet you didn't see lap dances, or the degree of contact, you see now.

Perhaps the lack of good paying jobs forces people to pursue the sex trades also. WOW, this is a whole other thread discussion!hehe

So getting back to this thread. WHY do so many people fall prey to addictive behaviour? Why so much self harm and hatred and fear toward eachother?

Did anyone watch Zeitgeist? Lots of pertinant answers there.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:14 am

Ahso!;1289375 wrote: Is geography and basic accounting it? Perhaps you could make a comprehensive list of all the things people need to know. Maybe you could brake it down to show which things at what age. I guess the model for our goal would be you? Or should it be someone else? I've got an idea: why not just clone you?:wah:

No that's not it Ahso---some people are proactive and others reactive--the proactive folks seek out information instead of waiting for someone else to lead them by the hand. Some people make bad choices and blame society for the outcome. And yes, I would make a fairly good model for those that want to accept responsibility for their own actions and no we would not want to clone me, that would be boring to have too much of a good thing. The fog is lifting and the sun is starting to peek out so I am off for a round of golf.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:37 pm

Lon;1289303 wrote: I am not talking about just marriage or fidelity and certainly there is nothing wrong with sex. I am talking about the obsessiveness of sex wherein it takes control of one's life. It's on the increase and as the saying goes "moderation in all things".

People have always been interested in sex. What is on the increase is a prurient interest in it and particularly from religious groups desperate to interfere in the private lives of others and take back the control they have lost. Take the current fuss over homosexuality. Most people are fairly liberal and are prepared to live and let live but it is the churches that want to keep us in the dark ages and keep homosexuals as pariahs and are doing their best to counter the tide of tolerance sweeping society. that are the ones obsessed by sex they seem to be convinced everybody is obsessed but the reality is it's them. every thread about homosexuality is started by someone religious hoping we all join in condemnation. In the UK we have the catholic church trying to claim they have a right to discriminate because of religious belief. We wouldn't tolerate it if it was racist so why should we because it is based on a perceived sin. They used to threaten to excommunicate anyone reporting paedophiles within the church so they can hardly claim the moral high ground and bleat about the decline of moral standards. In the states the number of preachers caught with their trousers down while preaching abstinence and fidelity makes you wonder why anyone listens to them.

Family values haven't changed what has happened is that we are no longer prepared to condemn single parents and divorced women and shun them as flawed somehow. Women have a financial independence they didn't have even fifty years ago. It's the church that want to ban contraceptives and prevent sex education yet they are always the first to complain about teenage pregnancy and blame the very people they prevented from finding out about sex and how to prevent pregnancy and deny access to contraceptives to single women.

If you look at the countries with the lowest teenage pregnancy rates it's the liberal ones where sex education starts in primary school and contraceptives are freely available. It's not liberal societies that have an obsession about sex it's the repressive religious ones. Look at the middle east-they insist women wear the Habib because they are convinced every man in sight will be unable to control themselves if they see female flesh. If that isn't obsessive I don't know what is.

The only people I know that are obsessed by sex are people who are worried everybody else is obsessed by it. The only people worried about homosexuality are those who are convinced it's a lifestyle choice rather than one nature has made for them. Why they think they will be weak and be led astray always puzzles me.

You need to get out of the states lon. Go somewhere civilised like australia where bikini clad women on the beach hasn't let to a complete collapse of society. Visit somewhere like new zealand where people don't go armed all the time in case somebody attacks them, or scotland where if someone doesn't stab you the deep fried mars bars and fish suppers will kill you slowly. America is not the world just a very strange part of it. even in America there must be people who are normal and not sex obsessed heavily armed lunatics convinced the rest of the world is out to get them and take away their private medical care and pick up trucks. Why do you all live in fear of each other anyway?

Amythest · Post by **Amythest** » Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:15 pm

I have to agree with GMC.

Religion aims to suppress and repress our sexuality for a reason. .

Feeling secure and free in your sexuality is power. When people are detached from that, shamed and punished for their natural functions,( the one thing that can create some pretty fantastic pleasurable physical sensations) it leaves them wounded, in pain (emotionally) and easier to control.

The downfall of this repression is perversion.

You don't see the kind of focus on sex in societies that are freer with their sexuality and don't punish children if they catch adults in the act ( for example)Sex education starts early, not in school, and people tend to grow up with healthy sexuality. They don't overstep or infringe upon others sexually.

Seeing exposed flesh or naked bodies doesn't faze a nudist. They don't turn into uncontrollable sex fiends.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:27 pm

Amythest;1290003 wrote: I have to agree with GMC.

Religion aims to suppress and repress our sexuality for a reason. .

Feeling secure and free in your sexuality is power. When people are detached from that, shamed and punished for their natural functions,( the one thing that can create some pretty fantastic pleasurable physical sensations) it leaves them wounded, in pain (emotionally) and easier to control.

The downfall of this repression is perversion.

I love this line.

You don't see the kind of focus on sex in societies that are freer with their sexuality and don't punish children if they catch adults in the act ( for example)Sex education starts early, not in school, and people tend to grow up with healthy sexuality. They don't overstep or infringe upon others sexually.

Seeing exposed flesh or naked bodies doesn't faze a nudist. They don't turn into uncontrollable sex fiends.i agree, but I'm not so convinced that Religion aims to suppress and repress our sexuality....As much as i think that that is the consequence of religious dogma.

I think religion sees females as Gods vessel for procreation and therefore believes that vessel's purpose should be limited to the glory of God's will. Don't get me wrong, I think its a perversion of reality, but I also think its not quite as is believed by many.

Religion controls, no argument there, but again, its what one would expect in multi level group selection. the actions and conditions of religion is very predictable if viewed from that perspective.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:17 pm

gmc;1289994 wrote: People have always been interested in sex. What is on the increase is a prurient interest in it and particularly from religious groups desperate to interfere in the private lives of others and take back the control they have lost. Take the current fuss over homosexuality. Most people are fairly liberal and are prepared to live and let live but it is the churches that want to keep us in the dark ages and keep homosexuals as pariahs and are doing their best to counter the tide of tolerance sweeping society. that are the ones obsessed by sex they seem to be convinced everybody is obsessed but the reality is it's them. every thread about homosexuality is started by someone religious hoping we all join in condemnation. In the UK we have the catholic church trying to claim they have a right to discriminate because of religious belief. We wouldn't tolerate it if it was racist so why should we because it is based on a perceived sin. They used to threaten to excommunicate anyone reporting paedophiles within the church so they can hardly claim the moral high ground and bleat about the decline of moral standards. In the states the number of preachers caught with their trousers down while preaching abstinence and fidelity makes you wonder why anyone listens to them.

Family values haven't changed what has happened is that we are no longer prepared to condemn single parents and divorced women and shun them as flawed somehow. Women have a financial independence they didn't have even fifty years ago. It's the church that want to ban contraceptives and prevent sex education yet they are always the first to complain about teenage pregnancy and blame the very people they prevented from finding out about sex and how to prevent pregnancy and deny access to contraceptives to single women.

If you look at the countries with the lowest teenage pregnancy rates it's the liberal ones where sex education starts in primary school and contraceptives are freely available. It's not liberal societies that have an obsession about sex it's the repressive religious ones. Look at the middle east-they insist women wear the Habib because they are convinced every man in sight will be unable to control themselves if they see female flesh. If that isn't obsessive I don't know what is.

The only people I know that are obsessed by sex are people who are worried everybody else is obsessed by it. The only people worried about homosexuality are those who are convinced it's a lifestyle choice rather than one nature has made for them. Why they think they will be weak and be led astray always puzzles me.

You need to get out of the states lon. Go somewhere civilised like australia where bikini clad women on the beach hasn't let to a complete collapse of society. Visit somewhere like new zealand where people don't go armed all the time in case somebody attacks them, or scotland where if someone doesn't stab you the deep fried mars bars and fish suppers will kill you slowly. America is not the world just a very strange part of it. even in America there must be people who are normal and not sex obsessed heavily armed lunatics convinced the rest of the world is out to get them and take away their private medical care and pick up trucks. Why do you all live in fear of each other anyway?

I'm pretty well traveled GMC, have been to Oz many times and will be in NZ in just three weeks and back to Oz for a visit in six weeks. My comment about the obsessiveness of sex in this present era has more to do with the reporting of sex scandals in the media, the capitalization of sex in advertising, not my own personal feelings re: sex or sexuality.

I certainly concur with you re: certain religious attitudes towards sex and sexuality .

Amythest · Post by **Amythest** » Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:12 am

Fairs Fair.

If women are half naked, their swim suits like a second skin, and men just expose their chests, in adverts and entertainment, I think it's time to subject men to same sort of "private" scrutiny.

No more boxer type swim shorts. Replace them with Speedos and Mankinis!

http://binside.typepad.com/photos/uncat ... ankini.jpg

That's what I'm talkin' 'bout!:yh_rotfl

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:54 am

Ahso!;1290006 wrote: i agree, but I'm not so convinced that As much as i think that that is the consequence of religious dogma.

I think religion sees females as Gods vessel for procreation and therefore believes that vessel's purpose should be limited to the glory of God's will. Don't get me wrong, I think its a perversion of reality, but I also think its not quite as is believed by many.

Religion controls, no argument there, but again, its what one would expect in multi level group selection. the actions and conditions of religion is very predictable if viewed from that perspective.

You're talking about middle eastern desert religion I suspect. It comes down to a simple question-who gets to decide when a woman gets pregnant and when someone can procreate-if you can control that you control, everything. It is part of our culture whether we like it or not but hopefully it is changing.

If your relationships with the opposite sex are constrained by society and it is difficult to find out even the basic mechanics of it you end up desperate to find out and listen to the one with the loudest opinion. If you don't teach children about sex they find out from their friends. How many teenage pregnancies believed they couldn't get pregnant the first time or if you did it standing up? Yet you still get this ridiculous argument that if you teach abstinence that will work for everybody. You have to be really convinced everybody is obsessed by sex in an unhealthy way to not see it as part of normal life.

posted by lon

My comment about the obsessiveness of sex in this present era has more to do with the reporting of sex scandals in the media, the capitalization of sex in advertising,

They're scandals because people like to gossip and somebody having an affair is a personal matter unless it's a politician or sportsman that like to play on the wholesome family man bit. I don't think this era is any worse than any before we are perhaps more open about these things and have more access to media.

Take child abuse for instance-there isn't more now than there used to be but now it's not covered up and the authorities don't assume a child is telling lies when it claims a priest does something. Yet some people think there is more abuse now than before because it gets reported. Same with domestic violence nowadays very few would think a right to belt his wife or beat his children not so long ago no one would have questioned the right but mighty have thought the level of violence a bit excessive sometimes. With highly visible public morality where scandal is not talked about an awful lot gets hidden and swept under the carpet because people prefer to believe such things don't happen.

In other words I don't see a more overt attitude to sexuality as necessarily a bad thing. It's the ones who see such signs of an open society as reflecting a decline in morality that are a greater problem. They are the tut tutters who want to be able to disapprove of things and be able to tell people how to live their lives and be able to sanction people who don't quite match what they think is "right".

Right now there is a world wide sex slave trade. maybe if we weren't so prurient and let those who think anything sexual is somehow dirty and depraved and shouldn't be mentioned hold sway so much more could be done to stop it rather than keep it hidden.

If you don't mind me saying so you have a peculiarly american way of looking at things. I don't see the fear dissension and hate-I see people all over the world more connected than ever before and ready to help someone on the other side of the world they will never meet in a country they will never visit. It's politicians and religion vying for power that are causing wars, ordinary people just want to get on with everybody and live in peace. has always been so. Mind you they don't like the internet as it helps make people more likely to turn round and say you go to war I don't see the need for it.

"If you don't support the war you must be supporting the terrorists. " It's sophistry like that you should worry about and not get distracted by people banging on about the amount of sex in the media

My comment about the obsessiveness of sex in this present era has more to do with the reporting of sex scandals in the media, the capitalization of sex in advertising,

How on earth does that encourage fear dissension and hate?

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:01 am

gmc;1290248 wrote: You're talking about middle eastern desert religion I suspect. It comes down to a simple question-who gets to decide when a woman gets pregnant and when someone can procreate-if you can control that you control, everything. It is part of our culture whether we like it or not but hopefully it is changing.

If your relationships with the opposite sex are constrained by society and it is difficult to find out even the basic mechanics of it you end up desperate to find out and listen to the one with the loudest opinion. If you don't teach children about sex they find out from their friends. How many teenage pregnancies believed they couldn't get pregnant the first time or if you did it standing up? Yet you still get this ridiculous argument that if you teach abstinence that will work for everybody. You have to be really convinced everybody is obsessed by sex in an unhealthy way to not see it as part of normal life.

posted by lon

They're scandals because people like to gossip and somebody having an affair is a personal matter unless it's a politician or sportsman that like to play on the wholesome family man bit. I don't think this era is any worse than any before we are perhaps more open about these things and have more access to media.

Take child abuse for instance-there isn't more now than there used to be but now it's not covered up and the authorities don't assume a child is telling lies when it claims a priest does something. Yet some people think there is more abuse now than before because it gets reported. Same with domestic violence nowadays very few would think a right to belt his wife or beat his children not so long ago no one would have questioned the right but mighty have thought the level of violence a bit excessive sometimes. With highly visible public morality where scandal is not talked about an awful lot gets hidden and swept under the carpet because people prefer to believe such things don't happen.

In other words I don't see a more overt attitude to sexuality as necessarily a bad thing. It's the ones who see such signs of an open society as reflecting a decline in morality that are a greater problem. They are the tut tutters who want to be able to disapprove of things and be able to tell people how to live their lives and be able to sanction people who don't quite match what they think is "right".

Right now there is a world wide sex slave trade. maybe if we weren't so prurient and let those who think anything sexual is somehow dirty and depraved and shouldn't be mentioned hold sway so much more could be done to stop it rather than keep it hidden.

If you don't mind me saying so you have a peculiarly american way of looking at things. I don't see the fear dissension and hate-I see people all over the world more connected than ever before and ready to help someone on the other side of the world they will never meet in a country they will never visit. It's politicians and religion vying for power that are causing wars, ordinary people just want to get on with everybody and live in peace. has always been so. Mind you they don't like the internet as it helps make people more likely to turn round and say you go to war I don't see the need for it.

"If you don't support the war you must be supporting the terrorists. " It's sophistry like that you should worry about and not get distracted by people banging on about the amount of sex in the media

How on earth does that encourage fear dissension and hate?

Wow----somehow this thread has gotten way off track--perhaps my fault. WITHIN MY COUNTRY I HAVE NEVER SEEN OR HEARD SO MUCH FEAR-HATE-DISSENSION--this was my initial post. Fear about the economy, unemployment, retirement, national debt, the wars, Obama etc., etc.-----Hate towards gays, lesbians, Middle Easterners, etc., etc.----Dissension-------politically.

I have no problem with sexual mores---past, present or future---only the capitalization

on sex which perhaps makes it seem obsessive.

I don't at all mind you saying that I have a peculiarly American way of looking at things, for I am indeed a peculiar American:)

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:56 am

Lon;1290274 wrote: Wow----somehow this thread has gotten way off track--perhaps my fault. WITHIN MY COUNTRY I HAVE NEVER SEEN OR HEARD SO MUCH FEAR-HATE-DISSENSION--this was my initial post. Fear about the economy, unemployment, retirement, national debt, the wars, Obama etc., etc.-----Hate towards gays, lesbians, Middle Easterners, etc., etc.----Dissension-------politically.

I have no problem with sexual mores---past, present or future---only the capitalization

on sex which perhaps makes it seem obsessive.

I don't at all mind you saying that I have a peculiarly American way of looking at things, for I am indeed a peculiar American:)

I've always thought that despite the upheavals of the civil rights movement the states has never had that great debate between left and right that we had in europe-even going to war over it. You seem to be having it now with the arguments about healthcare and what the people should be entitled to. Your right wing weren't squished like in europe it morphed and is still around. You saw it a bit in the McCarthy era and more recently in the you are with us or against us attitudes of some of your leadership and organisations like PNAC. Right wing politicians like to spread fear and dissent so they can persuade people to accept a curbing of their freedoms in the national interest. it's also convenient to have people to blame for a national decline-be it liberals or gays or just anyone handy but at the heart of it is a desire for power. An intolerant society is one where fear grows. Course that could be load of rubbish.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:02 pm

gmc;1290449 wrote: I've always thought that despite the upheavals of the civil rights movement the states has never had that great debate between left and right that we had in europe-even going to war over it. You seem to be having it now with the arguments about healthcare and what the people should be entitled to. Your right wing weren't squished like in europe it morphed and is still around. You saw it a bit in the McCarthy era and more recently in the you are with us or against us attitudes of some of your leadership and organisations like PNAC. Right wing politicians like to spread fear and dissent so they can persuade people to accept a curbing of their freedoms in the national interest. it's also convenient to have people to blame for a national decline-be it liberals or gays or just anyone handy but at the heart of it is a desire for power. An intolerant society is one where fear grows. Course that could be load of rubbish.Perhaps in the mind of American leaders they ask questions such as: How can we expect to lead if we become like them?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:17 pm

Ahso!;1290475 wrote: Perhaps in the mind of American leaders they ask questions such as: How can we expect to lead if we become like them?

Become like who?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:04 pm

gmc;1290478 wrote: Become like who?Like Europeans of course.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:18 pm

Ahso!;1290487 wrote: Like Europeans of course.

Ah so they fear those they would aspire to lead would not be bright enough to understand what they are talking about. :sneaky:I'm not sure sure that's justified though. western novels, for instance, are one of the finest examples to be found in a fictional genre of the ongoing class struggle in 20th century literature to be found anywhere in the world. Most americans would side with the underdog, poor pioneer taking on the rapacious cattle barons and demanding the right to make their own way in the world. Just change the terminology a bit and substitute sodbuster for peasant and cattle baron for warlord and the same story is found throughout the world. Is the demand for universal healthcare any different from a demand for justice and fair treatment anywhere. Your revolution is the same as everybody else's you just think it's different and use different words for the same thing. After all who gave you the concepts you take so much for granted you think they are peculiarly yours?

Compared to the upheavals of the past things are quite peaceful in america nowadays-no national guard out on the streets shooting demonstrators or dissidents daring to demand equal rights being lynched by mobs wearing white robes, seems to me-as an outsider-it's the forces of repression that are on the back foot and that's why they are shouting so much.

It's late at night here but that seemed to make sense as I wrote it:-3