Ireland : Behind the Wire - doco

[fuzzywuzzy]

[fuzzywuzzy]

[fuzzywuzzy]

[fuzzywuzzy]

[fuzzywuzzy]

from about 7:50 onwards is most interesting

[fuzzywuzzy]

[fuzzywuzzy]

[fuzzywuzzy]

Interesting. the judge laughs the charges out of court, so he leaves court and they intern him.

[fuzzywuzzy]

WTF??? that was a peaceful march!!!!!!!! Holy crap. I've never seen that footage before...I've only ever seen British footage. . Holy Crap!!! Oh my god!!!

[fuzzywuzzy]

[fuzzywuzzy]

[gmc]

Actually it is british footage you are watching-I've seen most of these before. This wasn't exactly happening on the quiet. They have internment without trial in america now, did you know? for the same reasons-to counter domestic terrorism.

If you want a shock do a web search on you tube "orange walk". We could teach the world a thing or two about religious hatred.

[fuzzywuzzy]

I'm beginning to understand why the Unions here supported them and why ...maybe ...just maybe Whitlam was outed by the governor general. Too many colonies wanting to break ties with the Brits.

ahh but it was happening on the quiet in terms of footage getting out to us. Yes I'm sure people have seen it over the years but not at the time I suspect. Had a bit of a talk with a couple of people on the phone this afternoon whilst watching it and they gave me some background . I've seen footage of bloody sunday from a different camera angle and with a different accent commentating it. I've never seen it from the crowds perspective only from the front/side of the crowd.

Not sure about he religious hatred bit.....seems from the people talking in hte show that they don't harbour any ...just want the medling brits out.

orange walk? Ulster?

I'm watching a debate with some twat against the Wolfe tones at the moment

[gmc]

fuzzywuzzy;1278961 wrote: I'm beginning to understand why the Unions here supported them and why ...maybe ...just maybe Whitlam was outed by the governor general. Too many colonies wanting to break ties with the Brits.

ahh but it was happening on the quiet in terms of footage getting out to us. Yes I'm sure people have seen it over the years but not at the time I suspect. Had a bit of a talk with a couple of people on the phone this afternoon whilst watching it and they gave me some background . I've seen footage of bloody sunday from a different camera angle and with a different accent commentating it. I've never seen it from the crowds perspective only from the front/side of the crowd.

Not sure about he religious hatred bit.....seems from the people talking in hte show that they don't harbour any ...just want the medling brits out.

orange walk? Ulster?

I'm watching a debate with some twat against the Wolfe tones at the moment


The footage you are watching is from northern Ireland which is still part of the united kingdom. I take it you are aware that southern Ireland had been an independent nation since partition in 1922. The six northern counties-mainly protestant in population would have risen in armed rebellion if they had been made part of an independent Catholic Ireland. Many of them still would pick up arms to prevent it happening. I don't mean to be rude but there have been poster on here that are completely unaware of the fact that Ireland is in fact completely free of british rule and has been since partition in 1922. It's the six counties in the north that constitute northern ireland or ulster that remain staunchly British. The troops were originally sent in to keep catholics and protestants from slaughtering each other and to begin with the catholics were cheering the troops who went in originally to protect them. They were not an occupying force in the sense being used. Speaking as someone who was around at the time this was not some big dark colonial secret hidden away from the general public that nobody knew about, nor is it simply a former colony wanting to break away.

Not sure about he religious hatred bit.....seems from the people talking in hte show that they don't harbour any ...just want the medling brits out.

orange walk? Ulster?




If you don't understand the reference and why it's relevant then you don't know anything about the history of the UK and Ireland-or europe come to that since they are all intertwined. Religious warfare and hatred is at the heart of it all and still is.

King William III. The Battle Of The Boyne 1st July 1690.

It may seem minor and long ago but these are events that shaped the world we live in today.

[fuzzywuzzy]

GMC everybody that isn't Irish tells me that all the time. There seems to be a consistent energy surrounding Ireland that insists it's about religious hatred, when it is political hatred and occupation. You see it's propaganda to say it's the Irish themselves belittling each other. And what impacts that statment is (and I'm talking of the time period of the 'troubles') putting someone in government that would do anything to quash the peoples legitimate protests...and make him protestant.......then have the Catholic leaders submissive to England. That way you have the demon and the catholics. Now the Brits have their excuse to be there . All they have to say is that it's a religious war and be done with it.

I'll take my sources from those who were there and experienced it. That's who I was on the phone to yesterday . I was wanting to know about the troubles, and I asked them ...of course they told me to go away and find out for myself and then come back to them. Last night I did. they seem to think what I've summised up is spot on....................Always see through the headlines and propaganda. More recent footage only shows people talking about religion not occupation. It is a false assumption . It's like saying that Palastine and Israel is about religion, .it is not, it's about occupation.

This so smells of Palastine it's not funny.

[fuzzywuzzy]

"The Men Behind The Wire" is a song written and composed by Paddy McGuigan of the Barleycorn folk group in the aftermath of internment [1][2] in Northern Ireland.

The song describes raids by British soldiers, and the "men behind the wire" refers to those held without charge or trial at Long Kesh prison camp,[2] Magilligan prison camp and on board the Maidstone Prison Ship[3][4][5].

McGuigan himself was picked up in a later round of internment, which some saw as the British State's revenge for writing the song[4].

[edit] Lyrics

Armoured cars and tanks and guns

Came to take away our sons

But every man will stand behind

The Men Behind the Wire

Through the little streets of Belfast

In the dark of early morn

British soldiers came marauding

Wrecking little homes with scorn.

Heedless of the crying children

Dragging fathers from their beds

Beating sons while helpless mothers

Watched the blood flow from their heads

Chorus

Not for them a judge or jury

Or indeed a crime at all

Being Irish means they're guilty

So we're guilty one and all

Round the world the truth will echo

CromweIl's men are here again

England's name again is sullied

In the eyes of honest men

Chorus

Proudly march behind our banners

Firmly stand behind our men

We will have them free to help us

Build a Nation once again

On the people stand together

Proudly firmly on your way

Never fear, and never falter

Till the boys are home to stay


Nothing about religion in that patriotic song. Just says 'British'. So one of the most famous songs of the troubles and not one mention of religion. Just about having fathers and sons interned.

[dubs]

So the British Army went in initially to stop the Protestants and Catholics from killing each other, but it's not about religion?

British soldiers went in *see above*But they must have already been there to be an occupying force. See I'm confused already!........ Oh wait! You don't think it's propaganda do you?

[Clodhopper]

Fuzzy: True story:

I went to Uni at St Andrews on the East Coast of Scotland. We had a lot of Northern Irish students there, and the very first evening after I'd unpacked I stepped into the corridor and bumped into one of them. First fellow-student I met. After the normal smiles and names his first words - and they remain clear in my mind - were, "Sooo, where do the Catholics drink?" 25 years ago the hatred was alive and well and religious. It was completely normal for him, when turning up in a new place, to check where his co-religionists drank, because back home if he went into the wrong pub where the Prods drank he faced a beating at the least. Same was true on both sides.

Oh, and my background in this is an Irish Protestant mother born 1932 and raised in Sligo (ie in the Republic) with family both sides of the border. Nowadays they're all in the North. I remember the tales of the IRA robbing my Gran's bridge circle, which consisted of old age pensioners, and my mother literally crying with fury at the latest IRA atrocity. I grew up with a strong awareness of the issue, but didn't discuss the details with Mum, because I didn't want the inevitable tantrum that would follow. Nor did I regard her hatred as a sure sign that the object of it deserved it.

So I had an interest, and read history. I'm not concerned with point scoring or raking up old hatreds because they are still too close and too real. If you tried to join North and South now, I reckon you'd restart the war. Give it 100 years and I reckon you could. If they vote for it, they'll get it.

[fuzzywuzzy]

Okay I'll be respectful here. How many of you that have posted in this thread watched the Doco I put up?

To be honest I believe that before the 100 years is out Clod, there will be more trouble (troubles)

I do not deny that people become war weary that's the job of an occupier, to beat people down. But I am learning by meeting and talking to people who are not so much war weary but have been under a banner where people are afraid to speak out unless they are accused of being labelled sympathisers. Of either side. That's not peace. That is blackmail.

A blackmail orchastrated by those who wish it to be. Watch the documentary.

Abbey put something up and I'm not sure she should have deleted it. Why did the RIRA kill those soldiers. The IRA have mainly been a retaliatorial group. (historically) What happened that we do not know about, for those in charge to sanction this? I looked at Irish papers and there is no sign of anything of the story (that was this morning though, I shall look again)

[gmc]

fuzzywuzzy;1279215 wrote: Okay I'll be respectful here. How many of you that have posted in this thread watched the Doco I put up?

To be honest I believe that before the 100 years is out Clod, there will be more trouble (troubles)

I do not deny that people become war weary that's the job of an occupier, to beat people down. But I am learning by meeting and talking to people who are not so much war weary but have been under a banner where people are afraid to speak out unless they are accused of being labelled sympathisers. Of either side. That's not peace. That is blackmail.

A blackmail orchastrated by those who wish it to be. Watch the documentary.

Abbey put something up and I'm not sure she should have deleted it. Why did the RIRA kill those soldiers. The IRA have mainly been a retaliatorial group. (historically) What happened that we do not know about, for those in charge to sanction this? I looked at Irish papers and there is no sign of anything of the story (that was this morning though, I shall look again)


I'd seen those documentaries before this was not some big secret action by the british government carried out by a colonial power in some dark corner of the world. Did you look at the link I posted? Or how bout orange walk did you bother? You need to put these events in the context of what was happening at the time it was part of a European wide conflict just as the 1715 and 1745 uprisings in scotland were and religion was a very important factor in it

Have a look at what the elizabethans did in ireland and why and what cromwell did as well. Fundamentalist Christians be they catholic or protestant are capable of the most dreadful barbarities in the name of their faith.

Hamilton & Montgomery May 1606 : The Dawn of the Ulster-Scots

What is Ulster-Scots

Sent there to keep down the catholics and take the best land off them. If you are wondering why scots bear in mind who was on the throne at the time, why we still celebrate the burning of guy fawkes and not long before there had been the little episode of the spanish armada and unbelieveable as it may seem the hatreds from those days still linger on, especially in places like northern ireland. The fear was not just hysterical hype it was a very real battle for freedom from tyranny. If you had bothered to read that link you would have noticed that calvinist william of orange had the backing of the pope and catholic officers and troops in his army. Things are never black or white or green and orange.

You are right though-the protestants were vicious bastards as well. If you want an example of how vicious bigotry can be here's a more recent one.

BBC News | NORTHERN IRELAND | Clashes at Belfast school protest

You're talking about primary school kids for goodness sake.

Bigotry and hatred usually have other justifications to begin with but after four hundred years all you are left with is bigotry and hatred. You will go demented looking for a rational explanation. Internment was highly controversial at the time and of dubious value. What really ended the troubles was people being weary of it all and the cutting of funding to the IRA from abroad by expat who suffered from the illusion they were fighting to free ireland from british occupation and unable to grasp that ireland was partitioned in 1922, that the IRA in the south were defeated in the civil war that followed. It took 911 for the US to understand that a terrorist is a terrorist and not a gallant freedom fighter forced to blow up women and children and terrorise their neighbours out of necessity and yes the UDA are every bit as frightful-actually I think they are worse in some ways but that's by the bye.

Not to be respectful at all, to be blunt it gets annoying when someone from the other side of the world posts links like yours and assumes we (the british if I can claim to speak for others) know nothing about it and think it is some kind of mass colonial exercise in keeping down the irish. Even the iriish posters get fed up being told they are occupied by the british and oppressed, it get even sillier when those on the other side of the world don't believe it when it gets pointed out that ireland is in fact independent and hs been for some time. Northern ireland is whole different ballgame and religion is at the heart of it all. The causes are away in the distant past The civil rights movement in northern ireland was entirely justified and a lot of people in the UK were in support, but all it takes is few extremists on either side to make life hell and right wing government (thatcher) that refuses to talk to terrorists or their political representatives-sooner or later you have to talk.

Then you have things like this

YouTube - The Eyes Of The IRA They Are Upon You

You will note it is an american song not an irish one.

posted by clodhopper

It was completely normal for him, when turning up in a new place, to check where his co-religionists drank, because back home if he went into the wrong pub where the Prods drank he faced a beating at the least. Same was true on both sides.


I live in central scotland in an area where there are still orange walks and the counterpart catholic ones, on one level it's keeping history alive on another it keeps bigotry fed. They say laughter heals all.

YouTube - Billy Connolly - Football Violence

[Clodhopper]

Fuzzy: As gmc said, the stuff in the documentary isn't a secret. I popped in, watched a bit and thought, "Yeah, know this stuff."

Bear in mind that as an Aussie, your own impartiality on this subject is not certain. Given how many of the original Australians were "rebel" Irish (as well as the huge London contingent) it's not a surprise to find you getting all het up about history. If this is your first real taste of European History prepare for a lot more blood - what happened in Ireland was a tiny, tiny proportion of it.

It might amaze you but as an Englishman I have occasionally noticed calls of "Brits out" from the direction of Northern Ireland in my lifetime (I was nearly 5 when the Troubles started). Like many others, my secret thought was "I wish...", but not while the IRA are bombing. Unfortunately, the hardline Protestants are well aware that most Brits would happily get shot of the whole thing and that makes them even more paranoid than they are anyway (with some justification).

Anyway, it was the Normans' fault, unless you are going to blame a subjugated people for the actions of their colonial masters:

The Norman conquest of England eventually had repercussions for Ireland. The English pope Adrian had authorised the English king to proclaim the truths of Christianity ‘to a rude and barbarous people’; without his intervention the Irish church was already reformed under Malachi. The four-part division of the Irish church was set in place, Armagh was confirmed as the prime Christian centre and the Cistercian monks were introduced into Ireland where the remains of their magnificent buildings can still be seen. An inter-dynastic row lead to an invitation to the English king Henry 11 to intervene in Ireland and an invasion ensued through the east coast county town of Wexford, already a Viking town. This intervention was the first step in a colonisation of Irish society by the Anglo-Normans, through the English crown. The key moment in this complex intermingling is depicted in Daniel Maclise’s superb nineteenth century painting The marriage of Strongbow and Aoife. Henry exercised what he chose to see as a pre-existing English title to Ireland through a papal Bull Laudibiliter and a process of colonisation began.



The key text of the coloniser here is that of Giraldus Cambrensis or Gerald of Wales. Soon the Normans fortified their sites with their distinctive architecture. By 1199, under King John, they had consolidated their hold on many locations, particularly in the north and east. The de Courceys and De Lacys extended into Down and Antrim, though they were held back from what is now called mid and west Ulster by the 0’ Neills. These Normans had originally come from Normandy in Northern France but arrived in Ireland through what was now English conquest; they had consolidated themselves as a forward party through conquering the harsh borderlands of 'Celtic’ North Wales. The Normans proceeded systematically, but the Shannon essentially acted as a divide beyond which their conquest did not succeed.


Anglo Norman Ireland

Taken from an Irish site for schools based in Eire in an effort to avoid bias. Until the Norman Conquest there was just generalised mayhem and slave-taking all over the place - after all, St Patrick was a Welshman taken by Irish slavers...

Evet since then, we've been intermingled and bloody. This current peace is our best chance in hundreds of years of ending it for good. The longer the peace holds, the better the chance.

(Oh, and the Vikings had done a pretty thorough job of trashing Ireland before the Normans had even conquered England. Better save up some rage for the Scandinavians)

[gmc]

Clodhopper;1279234 wrote: Fuzzy: As gmc said, the stuff in the documentary isn't a secret. I popped in, watched a bit and thought, "Yeah, know this stuff."

Bear in mind that as an Aussie, your own impartiality on this subject is not certain. Given how many of the original Australians were "rebel" Irish (as well as the huge London contingent) it's not a surprise to find you getting all het up about history. If this is your first real taste of European History prepare for a lot more blood - what happened in Ireland was a tiny, tiny proportion of it.

It might amaze you but as an Englishman I have occasionally noticed calls of "Brits out" from the direction of Northern Ireland in my lifetime (I was nearly 5 when the Troubles started). Like many others, my secret thought was "I wish...", but not while the IRA are bombing. Unfortunately, the hardline Protestants are well aware that most Brits would happily get shot of the whole thing and that makes them even more paranoid than they are anyway (with some justification).

Anyway, it was the Normans' fault, unless you are going to blame a subjugated people for the actions of their colonial masters:



Anglo Norman Ireland

Taken from an Irish site for schools based in Eire in an effort to avoid bias. Until the Norman Conquest there was just generalised mayhem and slave-taking all over the place - after all, St Patrick was a Welshman taken by Irish slavers...

Evet since then, we've been intermingled and bloody. This current peace is our best chance in hundreds of years of ending it for good. The longer the peace holds, the better the chance.

(Oh, and the Vikings had done a pretty thorough job of trashing Ireland before the Normans had even conquered England. Better save up some rage for the Scandinavians)


Actually the normans were also Scandinavian, originally vikings who settled in that part of france-norman is a corruption of norseman eventually every throne in europe had a norman on it.

Normans - Who were the Normans?

At the beginning of the tenth century, the French King, Charles the Simple, had given some land in the North of France to a Viking chief named Rollo. He hoped that by giving the Vikings their own land in France they would stop attacking France.

The land became known as Northmannia, the land of the Northmen. It was later shortened to Normandy. The Vikings intermarried with the French and by the year 1000, they were no longer Viking pagans, but French speaking Christians.


You've got to love the names none of this PC nonsense-rollo was known as rollo the bold and apparently not a sweetie at all.

Given how many of the original Australians were "rebel" Irish (as well as the huge London contingent) it's not a surprise to find you getting all het up about history.


Actually the original australians were black with curly hair and a lot were massacred by white colonists and had their country stolen by them. Considering what australians and americans did to the indigenous peoples complaining about the english in ireland has a certain irony about it don't you think?

[dubs]

fuzzywuzzy;1279215 wrote: Okay I'll be respectful here. How many of you that have posted in this thread watched the Doco I put up?

To be honest I believe that before the 100 years is out Clod, there will be more trouble (troubles)

I do not deny that people become war weary that's the job of an occupier, to beat people down. But I am learning by meeting and talking to people who are not so much war weary but have been under a banner where people are afraid to speak out unless they are accused of being labelled sympathisers. Of either side. That's not peace. That is blackmail.

A blackmail orchastrated by those who wish it to be. Watch the documentary.

Abbey put something up and I'm not sure she should have deleted it. Why did the RIRA kill those soldiers. The IRA have mainly been a retaliatorial group. (historically) What happened that we do not know about, for those in charge to sanction this? I looked at Irish papers and there is no sign of anything of the story (that was this morning though, I shall look again)


You're not being respectful at all. You've taken a one sided, extremely biased viewpoint, and run with it! One of the main reasons I despise religion in all its forms, is the troubles in NI. Yet you just brush that aside in your desperation to blame Britain. Did you even look at any of the links gmc posted? Those soldiers in Abbeys post, were killed by cowardly scum terrorists, hoping to get a reaction from the British Army which would spark up the troubles again. That's to save you the time and trouble of searching for a reason for their "retaliation".

[fuzzywuzzy]

Biased huh? No, just a different viewpoint, and obviously a different understanding . It makes no difference as to where people originally came from or who conquered them many centuries ago, the object of the matter is the here and now. you see if this was an Irish board and I took the side of the Brits I would get exactly what you guys are saying but in reverse. If I take the British side on htis forum all is well.

but I can't agree with you and I won't .

I'm reading three books at the moment . "proved innocent" ," Watching the door" and "Remember these dead".

I'm getting quite an education .

oh and Clod since you brought it up a good book to read about the colonisation of Victorira is a book called Black land White land by Michael Cannon.

Actually the original australians were black with curly hair and a lot were massacred by white colonists and had their country stolen by them
Actually some have/had straight hair I believe you're thinking of southern Islanders.

[gmc]

fuzzywuzzy;1279479 wrote: Biased huh? No, just a different viewpoint, and obviously a different understanding . It makes no difference as to where people originally came from or who conquered them many centuries ago, the object of the matter is the here and now. you see if this was an Irish board and I took the side of the Brits I would get exactly what you guys are saying but in reverse. If I take the British side on htis forum all is well.

but I can't agree with you and I won't .




It's just one viewpoint and doesn't give you the full picture. If it was an irish board and you took the side of the brits you'd probably get a flea in your ear for not knowing ireland is no longer part of the united kingdom and dismissing out of hand the fact that religion is at the heart of the troubles in northern ireland as are events from hundreds of years ago that echo down to the here and now. Try going on to a northern ireland forum and see what they have to say about it all.

but I can't agree with you and I won't .


That one phrase sums it all up. Both sides say that in northern ireland. If you disagree with the factual content of what myself and others have posted then say so. If you are not even prepared to look at another point of view why did you bother posting at all?

You posted bits of documentary clearly under the mistaken assumption you had discovered something new and that had been a great big secret. Most british posters will have seen that footage at some time or the other and be well aware of the issues-not least because having people trying to blow you up does make the subject matter interesting. No one is asking you to agree with anything but just pointing out that the matter is a bit more complex than you seem to think. If you don't want to keep an open mind and at least investigate things properly then don't waste your time posting.

[Clodhopper]

gmc: got everywhere, those b****y Normans. I was startled to discover they'd conquered Scicily as well!

Norman/Viking/French - Yeah, got us in the end, the bastids. Wiped out a culture that had given us a better literacy rate than we managed again until the Victorians and gave us our first historian. Suspect it is no coincidence we've been ambivalent about greater integration with the mainstream of European culture ever since.

Fuzzy.: If you are going to read about this, then don't stop. Also - please look for context. Nothing happened in Ireland in isolation.

[dubs]

fuzzywuzzy;1279479 wrote: Biased huh? No, just a different viewpoint, and obviously a different understanding . It makes no difference as to where people originally came from or who conquered them many centuries ago, the object of the matter is the here and now. you see if this was an Irish board and I took the side of the Brits I would get exactly what you guys are saying but in reverse. If I take the British side on htis forum all is well.

but I can't agree with you and I won't .

I'm reading three books at the moment . "proved innocent" ," Watching the door" and "Remember these dead".

I'm getting quite an education .

oh and Clod since you brought it up a good book to read about the colonisation of Victorira is a book called Black land White land by Michael Cannon.



Actually some have/had straight hair I believe you're thinking of southern Islanders.


When your mind is obviously made up and closed before you start the thread, I think biased is a good enough word to use. Oh and if you're reading the Susan McKay book, it's called, Bear In Mind These Dead.

[Snowfire]

It never ceases to amaze me that people still think that, reading the odd book, often from one angle or another will, iron out the creases and explain clearly what we've been trying to fathom for years. It aint all black and white and it aint all straight forward.

I normally stay away from this subject as it gets the hackles up when I read some of the blinkered bigotry. God knows the " troubles " have had enough of those.

I think Fuzzy's mind has already been made up and she has demonstrated an unwillingness to meet the subject a little closer in the middle, in order to find some semblance of truth, instead finding material that will reinforce a blinkered view that does N.I. , its people and its history no justice at all

[Clodhopper]

http:////news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8447829.stm

Another part of the glorious struggle.

[spot]

Fuzzy, you're deliberately hiding behind the blinkers you've put on and your language reflects it. There is no occupation, the occupation ended in 1922. There's a majority democratic choice in Northern Ireland to remain a part of the United Kingdom. There's an agreement between the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom that the majority choice of the residents of Northern Ireland is the sole deciding factor in whether it remains a part of the United Kingdom or becomes a part of the Republic. It's agreed, it's in writing and the majority view is what's currently enacted.

The documentary is an accurate reflection of life in Northern Ireland 35 years ago when it was made, it's a very different place now. The British Army behaved appallingly. The Catholics had few civil liberties and were heavily discriminated against. None of that happens any longer. As history it's accurate. As a description of Northern Ireland today it doesn't even pretend to be accurate, it was made at the time. If you want a current description you'll need to find a current documentary.