Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:11 pm

The red Cross has described conditions in Gaza as 'Shocking'.

Bolivia cuts tie's with Israel and calls for Israeli leaders to be charged in an international criminal court.

Let's hope the rest of the world follows suit and condemns Israel the terrorists.

Palestinian death toll in Gaza reaches 1,000 | World news | guardian.co.uk

Kindle · Post by **Kindle** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:29 pm

oscar;1109344 wrote: The red Cross has described conditions in Gaza as 'Shocking'.

Bolivia cuts tie's with Israel and calls for Israeli leaders to be charged in an international criminal court.

Let's hope the rest of the world follows suit and condemns Israel the terrorists.

Palestinian death toll in Gaza reaches 1,000 | World news | guardian.co.uk

I believe this started when Humas kept firing rockets into Israel. Would not your country fire back under this kind of attack?

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:57 pm

Kindle;1109353 wrote: I believe this started when Humas kept firing rockets into Israel. Would not your country fire back under this kind of attack?

SSSSHHHHHHHHHHHTTTTTTTTTTT.........Kindle

That is a DEEP DARK secret.

Please KEEP all facts out of this thread..........k?

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:03 pm

Kindle;1109353 wrote: I believe this started when Humas kept firing rockets into Israel. Would not your country fire back under this kind of attack?

No, this "started" when the UN relief agency pull out of Gaza saying they could no longer help the Palestinians because of the severity of the Israeli blockade (which they'd maintained throughout the cease fire).

Would not your country make at least a gesture of defiance if they were being starved to death?

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:04 pm

BTS;1109370 wrote: SSSSHHHHHHHHHHHTTTTTTTTTTT.........Kindle

That is a DEEP DARK secret.

Please KEEP all facts out of this thread..........k?

Which fact was that - all I saw was an opinion.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:15 pm

Kindle;1109353 wrote: I believe this started when Humas kept firing rockets into Israel. Would not your country fire back under this kind of attack?

It's Hamas not Humas.

As my learned friend Spot has said on many threads before about Israel's invasion of Gaza, it is about proportion.

In the years of troubles in the Middle East, Hamas have never had the capilbility of tanks or aircraft to bomb. All they have is rockets. The statistics (without googling for an exact figure to date) of fatalities from rockets fired by Hamas to date into Southern israel, is 15.

The confirmed deaths in Gaza are confirmed at 1,000 and it has been confirmed that one third of that total is women and children.

Hamas being the extremist Palistians are the one's launching the rockets and do not have the mass hardware capability of tanks and aircraft that Israel has which is backed and funded by America.

To prevent any rocket attack by Hamas, Israel could do what the rest of the world does in the fight on global terror and that is to use intelligence services to track insurgents and bring them to a trial in a court of law. What they should not be doing is launching a full ground based war in Gaza with the full might of their military capability and blow schools and innocent children up.

Israel has admited that they have used 'White phospherous' in bombing Gaza. This is similar to napalm used in Vietnam and the biological gas, Sadam used to kill the kurds. It is an illegal to use in any circumstances.

World leaders have called for an immediate cease-fire yet Israel has stated that it will up the attack on Gaza and ignore world leaders.

Israel can not pin point insurgents to an exact location so upping the anti, they are only going to cause the innocent Palistian people.

The Middle East troubles have been going on for years. It is very similar to the Irish republic Army vs The British Army and after years of bloodshed, the only way peace was brought about, was by meeting the IRA half way. With Israel, in all the years of troubles, they want to take take take and give nothing in return for that Hamas are striving to achieve and never will.

All the time America continue's to back and fund Israel (the only country left that does), peace will never be attainable. The Israeli's know that if America was to withdraw their military funding, they would have a serious problem in defeating Hamas. It is not America's war. They need to butt out of the Middle East and leave Israel and the Palistinians to deal with their own policies.

George Bush pledged another ten years of military support to Israel. George Bush also backed the threat to nuke Iran from Israel. When Obama takes office, he has pledged to hold up the white flag and engage with Iran..Israel's enemy. What does Obama do? Side with Iran and pisse off Israel who by the way sent him a chilling warning the moment he was elected? Or continue to support israel who wants to nuke Iran?? Interesting is it not?

When Obama has finished sorting that little lot out, he can then deal with the other chilling threat he had from Russia the moment he was elected to remove American missiles based in Eastern Europe primed for Iran, who Russia will side with against America if it all goes tits up? When he's sorted that little lot out, he can then sort out Iraq and Afghanistan now the British have pledged to have their troops out of Iraq by June this year, handing the shooting match over to America.

I really don't envy the position Obama has inherited.

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:24 pm

Bryn Mawr;1109373 wrote: Which fact was that - all I saw was an opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kindle

I believe this started when Humas kept firing rockets into Israel. Would not your country fire back under this kind of attack?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BTS

SSSSHHHHHHHHHHHTTTTTTTTTTT.........Kindle

That is a DEEP DARK secret.

Please KEEP all facts out of this thread..........k?

So it is not a fact that Ha-mas fired rockets into Israel?

FIRST I might ADD

Just one's opinion eh?

Also, you NEVER answered the question:

"Would not your country fire back under this kind of attack?"

along-for-the-ride · Post by **along-for-the-ride** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:24 pm

I still don't understand the reasoning behind this extremely aggressive attack. I just don't understand violence especially towards women and children. This makes me think of a bully having a temper tantrum.

There has got to be a better way to solve a problem. IMO

Kindle · Post by **Kindle** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:50 pm

oscar;1109381 wrote: It's Hamas not Humas.

As my learned friend Spot has said on many threads before about Israel's invasion of Gaza, it is about proportion.

In the years of troubles in the Middle East, Hamas have never had the capilbility of tanks or aircraft to bomb. All they have is rockets. The statistics (without googling for an exact figure to date) of fatalities from rockets fired by Hamas to date into Southern israel, is 15.

The confirmed deaths in Gaza are confirmed at 1,000 and it has been confirmed that one third of that total is women and children.

Hamas being the extremist Palistians are the one's launching the rockets and do not have the mass hardware capability of tanks and aircraft that Israel has which is backed and funded by America.

To prevent any rocket attack by Hamas, Israel could do what the rest of the world does in the fight on global terror and that is to use intelligence services to track insurgents and bring them to a trial in a court of law. What they should not be doing is launching a full ground based war in Gaza with the full might of their military capability and blow schools and innocent children up.

Israel has admited that they have used 'White phospherous' in bombing Gaza. This is similar to napalm used in Vietnam and the biological gas, Sadam used to kill the kurds. It is an illegal to use in any circumstances.

World leaders have called for an immediate cease-fire yet Israel has stated that it will up the attack on Gaza and ignore world leaders.

Israel can not pin point insurgents to an exact location so upping the anti, they are only going to cause the innocent Palistian people.

The Middle East troubles have been going on for years. It is very similar to the Irish republic Army vs The British Army and after years of bloodshed, the only way peace was brought about, was by meeting the IRA half way. With Israel, in all the years of troubles, they want to take take take and give nothing in return for that Hamas are striving to achieve and never will.

All the time America continue's to back and fund Israel (the only country left that does), peace will never be attainable. The Israeli's know that if America was to withdraw their military funding, they would have a serious problem in defeating Hamas. It is not America's war. They need to butt out of the Middle East and leave Israel and the Palistinians to deal with their own policies.

George Bush pledged another ten years of military support to Israel. George Bush also backed the threat to nuke Iran from Israel. When Obama takes office, he has pledged to hold up the white flag and engage with Iran..Israel's enemy. What does Obama do? Side with Iran and pisse off Israel who by the way sent him a chilling warning the moment he was elected? Or continue to support israel who wants to nuke Iran?? Interesting is it not?

When Obama has finished sorting that little lot out, he can then deal with the other chilling threat he had from Russia the moment he was elected to remove American missiles based in Eastern Europe primed for Iran, who Russia will side with against America if it all goes tits up? When he's sorted that little lot out, he can then sort out Iraq and Afghanistan now the British have pledged to have their troops out of Iraq by June this year, handing the shooting match over to America.

I really don't envy the position Obama has inherited.

I read Spot explanation regarding proportion. However, I believe, if you are going to shot at me and my family and friends, I have a right to stop you.

I believe if you are at war, you fight to win -- not proportionaly win only up to the capability of the original aggresser. To me that's just stupid -- as all wars are.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:59 pm

BTS;1109384 wrote: Quote:

Originally Posted by Kindle

I believe this started when Humas kept firing rockets into Israel. Would not your country fire back under this kind of attack?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BTS

SSSSHHHHHHHHHHHTTTTTTTTTTT.........Kindle

That is a DEEP DARK secret.

Please KEEP all facts out of this thread..........k?

So it is not a fact that Ha-mas fired rockets into Israel?

FIRST I might ADD

Just one's opinion eh?

Also, you NEVER answered the question:

"Would not your country fire back under this kind of attack?"

The opinion was in stating that it "started" with the firing of a rocket by Hamas.

In answer to your question, yes, Britain would very probably have fought back - we would NOT have massacred 150 people for every one of ours who died and we would NOT have targeted children sitting at their desks in school and we would NOT be using white phosphorous against a civilian population. Let's face it, given that we wouldn't have been depriving the Palestinians of access to food, water, fuel and medical supplied to the extent that they were desperate enough to start off in the first place.

Now answer my question :-

Would not your country make at least a gesture of defiance if they were being starved to death?

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:00 pm

along-for-the-ride;1109385 wrote: I still don't understand the reasoning behind this extremely aggressive attack. I just don't understand violence especially towards women and children. This makes me think of a bully having a temper tantrum.

There has got to be a better way to solve a problem. IMO

Too true :-6

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:01 pm

Kindle;1109401 wrote: I read Spot explanation regarding proportion. However, I believe, if you are going to shot at me and my family and friends, I have a right to stop you.

I believe if you are at war, you fight to win -- not proportionaly win only up to the capability of the original aggresser. To me that's just stupid -- as all wars are.

I agree that if some-one is going to shoot at you and your family, then you would do what you could to stop them and i would do exactly the same. However, we are civilians and not the might of a massive military capability.

Other countries sucessfully bring religious extremists to capture by intelligence without involving innocents.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:02 pm

Kindle;1109401 wrote: I read Spot explanation regarding proportion. However, I believe, if you are going to shot at me and my family and friends, I have a right to stop you.

I believe if you are at war, you fight to win -- not proportionaly win only up to the capability of the original aggresser. To me that's just stupid -- as all wars are.

Does the death of one person justify killing 150 others - I do not believe so.

Kindle · Post by **Kindle** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:07 pm

Bryn Mawr;1109419 wrote: Does the death of one person justify killing 150 others - I do not believe so.

We are not talking just one death. We are talking many deaths, possibly the death of a people. If they do not defend themselves the attacks would just go on and on. Why do they have to live their lives in battle to just live in peace? Why are they wrong for defending themselves and their homeland but you have no criticism against the people who started this?

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:16 pm

Kindle;1109428 wrote: We are not talking just one death. We are talking many deaths, possibly the death of a people. If they do not defend themselves the attacks would just go on and on. Why do they have to live their lives in battle to just live in peace? Why are they wrong for defending themselves and their homeland but you have no criticism against the people who started this?

Last I saw we were talking about eight deaths from Hamas rockets. Today the Palestinian death toll passed one thousand with the majority of those being women and children.

On which side do you see the death of a people? Who is wrong for defending themselves and their homeland?

I ask you again, who started this when Israel has been denying the Palestinians access to food, water, fuel and medicine throughout the ceasefire? Causing, according to the UN and Amnesty International, severe and unjustified suffering amongst the civilian population of Gaza during a time of peace.

I criticize whoever uses violence to gain their ends but I especially condemn those who have the power and abuse it against the weak and vulnerable.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:24 pm

Kindle;1109428 wrote: We are not talking just one death. We are talking many deaths, possibly the death of a people. If they do not defend themselves the attacks would just go on and on. Why do they have to live their lives in battle to just live in peace? Why are they wrong for defending themselves and their homeland but you have no criticism against the people who started this?

If you lived in one state in the US and your neighbour state blocked vital food, medical assistence, water and safe passage, your children were dying of thirst, hunger, and illness what would you do?

You would do as Hamas have done and that is to try to reach the outside countries governments to bring help to you. If you had to fire a rocket to get their attention or YOUR children die... You would.

Amber Sun · Post by **Amber Sun** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:04 am

oscar;1109381 wrote: It's Hamas not Humas.

As my learned friend Spot has said on many threads before about Israel's invasion of Gaza, it is about proportion.

In the years of troubles in the Middle East, Hamas have never had the capilbility of tanks or aircraft to bomb. All they have is rockets. The statistics (without googling for an exact figure to date) of fatalities from rockets fired by Hamas to date into Southern israel, is 15.

The confirmed deaths in Gaza are confirmed at 1,000 and it has been confirmed that one third of that total is women and children.

Hamas being the extremist Palistians are the one's launching the rockets and do not have the mass hardware capability of tanks and aircraft that Israel has which is backed and funded by America.

To prevent any rocket attack by Hamas, Israel could do what the rest of the world does in the fight on global terror and that is to use intelligence services to track insurgents and bring them to a trial in a court of law. What they should not be doing is launching a full ground based war in Gaza with the full might of their military capability and blow schools and innocent children up.

Israel has admited that they have used 'White phospherous' in bombing Gaza. This is similar to napalm used in Vietnam and the biological gas, Sadam used to kill the kurds. It is an illegal to use in any circumstances.

World leaders have called for an immediate cease-fire yet Israel has stated that it will up the attack on Gaza and ignore world leaders.

Israel can not pin point insurgents to an exact location so upping the anti, they are only going to cause the innocent Palistian people.

The Middle East troubles have been going on for years. It is very similar to the Irish republic Army vs The British Army and after years of bloodshed, the only way peace was brought about, was by meeting the IRA half way. With Israel, in all the years of troubles, they want to take take take and give nothing in return for that Hamas are striving to achieve and never will.

All the time America continue's to back and fund Israel (the only country left that does), peace will never be attainable. The Israeli's know that if America was to withdraw their military funding, they would have a serious problem in defeating Hamas. It is not America's war. They need to butt out of the Middle East and leave Israel and the Palistinians to deal with their own policies.

George Bush pledged another ten years of military support to Israel. George Bush also backed the threat to nuke Iran from Israel. When Obama takes office, he has pledged to hold up the white flag and engage with Iran..Israel's enemy. What does Obama do? Side with Iran and pisse off Israel who by the way sent him a chilling warning the moment he was elected? Or continue to support israel who wants to nuke Iran?? Interesting is it not?

When Obama has finished sorting that little lot out, he can then deal with the other chilling threat he had from Russia the moment he was elected to remove American missiles based in Eastern Europe primed for Iran, who Russia will side with against America if it all goes tits up? When he's sorted that little lot out, he can then sort out Iraq and Afghanistan now the British have pledged to have their troops out of Iraq by June this year, handing the shooting match over to America.

I really don't envy the position Obama has inherited.

Israel has admited that they have used 'White phospherous' in bombing Gaza. This is similar to napalm used in Vietnam and the biological gas, Sadam used to kill the kurds. It is an illegal to use in any circumstances.

I hadn't heard about this Oscar. This one fact alone changes the whole idea of 'self protection' to one of genocide and just plain murder. I have heard and read varying opinions on this war, but I want to say that this thread has enlightened me more than all other views put together.

One of the things that is bothering me is that the Jews had managed over the years since WW2 to have gained some sympathy for the plight and conditions that they had to endure in the Nazi camps. No, they weren't the only ones to have suffered in the camps but they have made the biggest noise over it. Now they are doing to the Palestinians what had been done to them and others. By so doing they are undoing all the sympathy they had gained. In other rooms and threads they have been called 'Nazi Jews', murderers, criminals etc. I know that in future when many watch movies about the holocaust that the 'perspective' will be entirely different. Why this bothers me is because I don't believe that all the Jews want this war but are unable to get the upper hand on the Zionist faction. Do the Zionists care what the rest of the Jews think and feel? No they don't. Here in Winnipeg there were previously uproars when Neo-Nazi youths vandalized Jewish grave sites etc. Yes, when it happens again the police will be involved as usual, but again the 'perspective' will be different.

So yes, what the Zionist faction is doing against the Palestinians is criminal, but in the end they are also hurting their entire nation in a way that they won't be able to repair. Palestinians are dying, but they have our sympathy and everyone is willing to send in food supplies etc., and they will rebuild. But who will want to help the Zionists wash the blood off of their hands? By their use of the 'gas' they have shown what kind of people they really are and what the 'war' is really all about, genocide. It appears that the Jews have now taken Hitlers spot.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:55 am

Jester;1109546 wrote: This is where the waters muddy-

On one hand we have the people pf palestine legally electing a known terrorist and militant group to 'lead' them. (Hamas)

Then we have Israels right to protect themselves against open and agressive rocket attacks.

We have Gaza on lock down, sieged because the rockets slip in and are used by Hamas. Israel says, no shipments into the country until you stop rocketing us, Hamas allows their poeple to starve, by continuing to rocket and terrorize Israel...

So whats a country to do?

Jester,

During the cease fire Hamas shot zero rockets. Israel continued the "lock down" and starved the people of Gaza. It was the admission by the UN Relief Agency that they could not get humanitarian supplies past the blockade that led to the breakdown of the cease-fire, not the firing of rockets.

It wasn't rockets that Israel was blockading it was food, water, fuel and medicine.

So what's a country to do?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:27 am

Amber Sun;1109630 wrote: Israel has admited that they have used 'White phospherous' in bombing Gaza. This is similar to napalm used in Vietnam and the biological gas, Sadam used to kill the kurds. It is an illegal to use in any circumstances.

I hadn't heard about this Oscar. This one fact alone changes the whole idea of 'self protection' to one of genocide and just plain murder. I have heard and read varying opinions on this war, but I want to say that this thread has enlightened me more than all other views put together. One of the things that is bothering me is that the Jews had managed over the years since WW2 to have gained some sympathy for the plight and conditions that they had to endure in the Nazi camps. No, they weren't the only ones to have suffered in the camps but they have made the biggest noise over it. Now they are doing to the Palestinians what had been done to them and others. By so doing they are undoing all the sympathy they had gained. In other rooms and threads they have been called 'Nazi Jews', murderers, criminals etc. I know that in future when many watch movies about the holocaust that the 'perspective' will be entirely different. Why this bothers me is because I don't believe that all the Jews want this war but are unable to get the upper hand on the Zionist faction. Do the Zionists care what the rest of the Jews think and feel? No they don't. Here in Winnipeg there were previously uproars when Neo-Nazi youths vandalized Jewish grave sites etc. Yes, when it happens again the police will be involved as usual, but again the 'perspective' will be different.

So yes, what the Zionist faction is doing against the Palestinians is criminal, but in the end they are also hurting their entire nation in a way that they won't be able to repair. Palestinians are dying, but they have our sympathy and everyone is willing to send in food supplies etc., and they will rebuild. But who will want to help the Zionists wash the blood off of their hands? By their use of the 'gas' they have shown what kind of people they really are and what the 'war' is really all about, genocide. It appears that the Jews have now taken Hitlers spot.

I'm afraid that Israel using illegal white phospherous is true.

Gaza and Israel conflict

An excellent post which i am in agreement with.

I have to agree with your comment re: the Jewish holocaust and we can never deny the atrocity of it. However, the ethnic cleansing of the Nazi party was not confined to Jewish.

'The Holocaust was more than a Jewish event. Records kept by the Germans prove they exterminated millions of Communists, Czechs, Greeks, Gypsies, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, mentally and physically handicapped, Poles, resistance fighters, Russians, Serbs, Socialists, Spanish Republicans, trade unionists, Ukrainians, Yugoslavians, prisoners of war of many nations, and still others whose identity may never be recognized.(1) Their victims, according to one survivor of four different concentration camps, "were of some thirty nationalities, from Nepalese to Andorrans, and of a variety of racial and linguistic stocks ranging from Basques to Buriats and from Ladinos to Lapps".(2) When people were not immediately exterminated, they were sent to work and/or concentration camps. There the prisoners were divided into six penal categories and given patches on their clothing for identification purposes. Ordinary criminals were assigned green; political prisoners wore red; black was worn by asocials (slackers, prostitutes, procurers, etc.); homosexuals wore pink; conscientious objectors wore purple, and the Jewish people wore yellow.(3) '

This is throughout history, widely overlooked and i believe in the case of Israeli Jews, 'Convieniently overlooked'.

The highest numbers killed along with the Jews were Russia and Poland yet the world is not held to ransom on the memory of the Holocaust by them as Israel continue's to do so now.

The use of chemical warfare against the Palistinian people along with blocking vital aid into Gaza, food, water and medical aid, is nothing more than the very atrocities carried out by the Nazi party against them. This makes Israel nothing more than bigoted hypocrites and it is why the world has lost any sympathy they have had for them.

Israel cuts off fuel and blocks Humanitarian Aid to Gaza « peacepalestine

A Case for Palestine

The Israeli Jews continue to milk the sympathy of the Holocaust yet they are doing the exact same to Palistinians. That's why the sympathy has run out.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:39 am

Bryn Mawr;1109637 wrote: Jester,

During the cease fire Hamas shot zero rockets. Israel continued the "lock down" and starved the people of Gaza. It was the admission by the UN Relief Agency that they could not get humanitarian supplies past the blockade that led to the breakdown of the cease-fire, not the firing of rockets.

It wasn't rockets that Israel was blockading it was food, water, fuel and medicine.

So what's a country to do?

This is absolutely true. I have googled many sites refering to this.

Interestingly, The Israeli's have now shown they are not afraid to kill Americans dispite the fact that it is America's money that has funded them.

Gaza relief boat damaged in encounter with Israeli vessel - CNN.com

What happens now there is proof that the Israeli's are quite happy to endanger the live's of American's in their inhumane quest to stop any aid getting into Gaza?

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:49 am

oscar;1109934 wrote: This is absolutely true. I have googled many sites refering to this.

Interestingly, The Israeli's have now shown they are not afraid to kill Americans dispite the fact that it is America's money that has funded them.

Gaza relief boat damaged in encounter with Israeli vessel - CNN.com

What happens now there is proof that the Israeli's are quite happy to endanger the live's of American's in their inhumane quest to stop any aid getting into Gaza?

They're even shelling the UN compound - one wonders how far they will go!

Bloomberg.com: Worldwide

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:59 am

Bryn Mawr;1109946 wrote: They're even shelling the UN compound - one wonders how far they will go!

Bloomberg.com: Worldwide

From your link, this paragraph shows the principle of 'proportion' well and highlights that Hamas rockets are doing very little damage in contrast to the Israeli's,

"At least 25 rockets were fired into Israel from Gaza early today, including two that hit the city of Beersheba about 25 kilometers away, leaving at least one person seriously injured, police spokesman Micky Rosenfield said by phone. The number of rocket attacks per day has been cut to an average 20 from more than 70 before the war, the military said."

The rocket attacks have actually decreased in numbers yet Israel continue's with the full military capability.

In the link, Hamas only want safe passage for aid to get through to their people yet Israel continue's to bombard them.

The attack on the UN is a very clear example of exactly how far they will go and the fact that they will stop at nothing to harm Palistinians who-ever the causualties may be, American, British etc etc.

Amber Sun · Post by **Amber Sun** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:50 pm

oscar;1109949 wrote: From your link, this paragraph shows the principle of 'proportion' well and highlights that Hamas rockets are doing very little damage in contrast to the Israeli's,

"At least 25 rockets were fired into Israel from Gaza early today, including two that hit the city of Beersheba about 25 kilometers away, leaving at least one person seriously injured, police spokesman Micky Rosenfield said by phone. The number of rocket attacks per day has been cut to an average 20 from more than 70 before the war, the military said."

The rocket attacks have actually decreased in numbers yet Israel continue's with the full military capability.

In the link, Hamas only want safe passage for aid to get through to their people yet Israel continue's to bombard them.

The attack on the UN is a very clear example of exactly how far they will go and the fact that they will stop at nothing to harm Palistinians who-ever the causualties may be, American, British etc etc.

Do you think that this might have anything to do with what Israel can get away with now? I would put in a good link but am not allowed to until I've set in 15 posts. Look up the name Michael Chertofff. Let me know what you think Oscar.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:06 am

Amber Sun;1110277 wrote: Do you think that this might have anything to do with what Israel can get away with now? I would put in a good link but am not allowed to until I've set in 15 posts. Look up the name Michael Chertofff. Let me know what you think Oscar.

Well well well. It all adds up does it not?

Thank you for that. I found a mass of sites on this man and will read up in detail when i have a little time later tonight. For the time being, I found this link extremely interesting. (Though, not surprising)

New Homeland Security Czar Is An Israeli Citizen

Amber Sun · Post by **Amber Sun** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:14 am

Oscar

I found the utube link very interesting. This explains why even Obama is acting cautiously. I wonder how much 'back-up' Chertoff has in the governments of various countries, and even within the various agencies within the USA. If there are a number like him then the Israelies have a strangle hold on the planet.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:36 pm

Jester;1110270 wrote: Oscar, your naive about military operations, actually all of you are, at least those who keep arguing this idea of proportion.

Just because the roicket attacks have decreased does not mean you stop or slow operations, it actually tells me that current operations are highly successful and I should expand and find the rest of the laucnh points and continue to dismantle thier ability to make war in any fashion.

The decrease of rockets is encouraging, it means this war is progressing towards an end when objectives are being met.

As a field commander, I'd step up my attacks as well.

This latest news just in is nothing short of a blood deal between the US and a terrorist Israeli government.

They have starved the innocent Palistine's from basic food and water and now this action may stop arms getting to Hamas but gives them nothing to defend themselve's with against pledged Israeli extra bombardment of Gaza.

Lets talk about proportion when Palistine is left with nothing.

Note to 'Rice'

You stupid dumb woman........ It was only a day ago that the Israeli's were trying to blow American's up in the UN compound.

U.S. and Israel sign agreement aiming to stop weapons being smuggled into Gaza strip | Mail Online

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:48 pm

Amber Sun;1110535 wrote: Oscar

I found the utube link very interesting. This explains why even Obama is acting cautiously. I wonder how much 'back-up' Chertoff has in the governments of various countries, and even within the various agencies within the USA. If there are a number like him then the Israelies have a strangle hold on the planet.

Sorry but i can't get the link.

It will be very interesting once Obama takes the Whitehouse as then he will be expected by the whole world to denounce Israel or pledge continued support. Either way, he can't win. If he supports Israel, Iran will be a big problem to America with Russia siding with them. To stick to his pledge to open dialogue with Iran would be to denounce Israel. The next few weeks will be very interesting to watch in American foriegn policy.

I still have much to read on Chertoff but the world has condmned Israel. America is the only one to back them. At present, with the American government giving an average of two billion $ a year since 1971, they can not viably continue with this kind of support with the economic collapse. Or is Obama willing to carry on shafting the American tax-payer and infrastructure to pay for the Israeli war against Palistine as Bush has done?

America has just signed a deal with Israel to stop the smuggling of weapons into Gaza. If they had a constructive plan in place to ensure basic food and water was getting through then it would not be such an atrocity. America is now backing Israel to leave the Palistinian's with nothing to defend themselve's with while the Israeli government pledges to up the attack on Gaza.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:14 pm

Jester;1110797 wrote: GO ISRAEL!

KEEP FIGHTING!

Good Job Secratary Rice!

You agree then to depriving innocent Palistinian children from basic medical supplie's, food, water etc?

You agree with newborn babie's being still-born because there is no electricity?

You agree to the illegal use of white phospherous?

You agree to bombing American civilians in the UN compound??

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:48 pm

Jester;1110906 wrote: Oscar you actually believe all the reports your hearing because the came from a biritsh source- I don't.

The palestinaians could by food and water form Israeli sources even during the so called seige- they did not have to starve. Most palestinainas worked inside Israel and then commuted home.

The cutting of electricity is the result of Hamas being in control in GAZA.

There will be civilian casualties as a result of the military action inside Gaza, there is just no way to prevent it, except for the palestinains to give up all weapons and Hamas operatives.

I have seen no evidence yet that Israel has used WP yet, I have only seen what some say was WP.

I have read nothing fo a UN compound being bombed nor americans being bombed, when I see credible evidience of the sort I'll comment on my reaction to it.

I'm shocked that you have not seen anything about the UN compound being bombed, it's been big news.

All the news reports are British so i guess that's propoganda. I will also leave the thread for a while to give some-one else the chance to come in.

Amber Sun · Post by **Amber Sun** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:11 pm

oscar;1110731 wrote: Sorry but i can't get the link.

It will be very interesting once Obama takes the Whitehouse as then he will be expected by the whole world to denounce Israel or pledge continued support. Either way, he can't win. If he supports Israel, Iran will be a big problem to America with Russia siding with them. To stick to his pledge to open dialogue with Iran would be to denounce Israel. The next few weeks will be very interesting to watch in American foriegn policy.

I still have much to read on Chertoff but the world has condmned Israel. America is the only one to back them. At present, with the American government giving an average of two billion $ a year since 1971, they can not viably continue with this kind of support with the economic collapse. Or is Obama willing to carry on shafting the American tax-payer and infrastructure to pay for the Israeli war against Palistine as Bush has done?

America has just signed a deal with Israel to stop the smuggling of weapons into Gaza. If they had a constructive plan in place to ensure basic food and water was getting through then it would not be such an atrocity. America is now backing Israel to leave the Palistinian's with nothing to defend themselve's with while the Israeli government pledges to up the attack on Gaza.

I also seen and heard about the bombing but the video I watched was the bombing of the food supplies that were being taken to the Palestinians. This was a news report on yahoo. I can't remember what news channel it was on though so I guess I'm not being of much help here.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:34 pm

Amber Sun;1111009 wrote: I also seen and heard about the bombing but the video I watched was the bombing of the food supplies that were being taken to the Palestinians. This was a news report on yahoo. I can't remember what news channel it was on though so I guess I'm not being of much help here.

Not at all.

I have been trying to find a link for Jester that had photographs of the compound being bombed in one of our papers and i just can't get it. I shall keep trying for it.

I also watched footage on Sky news. I could try googling some US papers in the morning to see if they have anything.

It looks like Egypt has become involved now with Israel and America doing deals.

The involvement of Egypt is worrying. I will try to find out more and post tomorrow.

Amber Sun · Post by **Amber Sun** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:04 pm

oscar;1111015 wrote: Not at all.

I have been trying to find a link for Jester that had photographs of the compound being bombed in one of our papers and i just can't get it. I shall keep trying for it.

I also watched footage on Sky news. I could try googling some US papers in the morning to see if they have anything.

It looks like Egypt has become involved now with Israel and America doing deals.

The involvement of Egypt is worrying. I will try to find out more and post tomorrow.

It's 12 midnight here in Wpg so I won't continue looking for links. However I did find a video done by CNN. I know there is one by CBC also but I'm too sleepy to look for it tonight.

Israeli Cabinet to Vote on Gaza Truce

If you go to this link there are 2 videos, it is the bottom one almost at the very bottom that shows the UN burning.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:46 am

Amber Sun;1111030 wrote: It's 12 midnight here in Wpg so I won't continue looking for links. However I did find a video done by CNN. I know there is one by CBC also but I'm too sleepy to look for it tonight.

Israeli Cabinet to Vote on Gaza Truce

If you go to this link there are 2 videos, it is the bottom one almost at the very bottom that shows the UN burning.

Excellent. We have a link to show the UN compound burning. :-6

The alarming part of this attack on the Un compound is that 'Rice' ordered the Israeli's not to bomb UN buildings and they have ignored her even bombing a UN school. Also, at the time of attack, the Israeli's were not certain that there were any American personnel in the compound yet they carried on bombing at a risk they may kill the very citizens of the nation that funds their military.

Amber Sun · Post by **Amber Sun** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:53 pm

oscar;1111225 wrote: Excellent. We have a link to show the UN compound burning. :-6

The alarming part of this attack on the Un compound is that 'Rice' ordered the Israeli's not to bomb UN buildings and they have ignored her even bombing a UN school. Also, at the time of attack, the Israeli's were not certain that there were any American personnel in the compound yet they carried on bombing at a risk they may kill the very citizens of the nation that funds their military.

There is some talk also about this being an 'accident'. How can this be an accident is something I'd like to know. If they are smart enough to be able to pick up guns and fire, and pilot planes to drop bombs, then how come they aren't smart enough to know the difference between between one building and another? Perhaps they just want to see how far they can push things.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:02 pm

Amber Sun;1111458 wrote: There is some talk also about this being an 'accident'. How can this be an accident is something I'd like to know. If they are smart enough to be able to pick up guns and fire, and pilot planes to drop bombs, then how come they aren't smart enough to know the difference between between one building and another? Perhaps they just want to see how far they can push things.

That's like Bush saying he hit Iraq by mistake!

The Israeli military is way to advanced to take uncalculated risks. The truth is, they didn't care who was in the compound.

We have news hear today that British Muslim leaders have condemned Israel for bombing British Jews in Gaza. There is not a lot of detail at the moment but this is really serious i fear and could bring in the British against Israel. We won't stand for Brit's being killed whatever their faith. Quite rightly, our government agree's with the muslims and is pledging to back them . :yh_nailbi:yh_nailbi:yh_nailbi

Chookie · Post by **Chookie** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:10 pm

oscar;1111800 wrote: The Israeli military is way to advanced to take uncalculated risks. The truth is, they didn't care who was in the compound.

How true

oscar;1111800 wrote: We have news hear today that British Muslim leaders have condemned Israel for bombing British Jews in Gaza. There is not a lot of detail at the moment but this is really serious i fear and could bring in the British against Israel.

Not a chance in Hell Oscar, The British government is, on the whole, gutless, and their military options are damn near non-existent.

oscar;1111800 wrote: We won't stand for Brit's being killed whatever their faith. Quite rightly, our government agree's with the muslims and is pledging to back them.

Oh sure, it will back them with words - words which will be subject to qualification and which will so qualified they are utterly meaningless.

It seems that Israel is part of the USA. Previously, only critcism of US foreign policy drew the same amount of invective as criticism of Israeli foreign policy (such as it is).

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:17 pm

Chookie;1111824 wrote: How true

Not a chance in Hell Oscar, The British government is, on the whole, gutless, and their military options are damn near non-existent.

Oh sure, it will back them with words - words which will be subject to qualification and which will so qualified they are utterly meaningless.

I beg to differ. The BLAIR government was gutless. Maybe from the same camp but brown is a different animal. Logically speaking, with our Muslim population and condemnation of Israel, the government have to back the muslims. The British would not support the threat to Iran by Israel as Bush did. You may start seeing a far harder line now than in the past with Blair. I am in no doubt and never have been that Gordon Brown would take it to war without America.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:21 pm

Scrat;1111833 wrote: You're joking. I'll believe that when I see it.

The british really can do nothing else but back the Muslims. After all, there's enough of them in our country to have their own state of independence.

;)

Amber Sun · Post by **Amber Sun** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:06 pm

History has shown us that the Brits are not 'gutless', history has shown us most countries are not 'gutless'. Therein lies the problem because history has also shown us 2 world wars. I doubt that England will go up against the Israelies because the Jews learned very well from what happened to them during the last war. Now they have infiltrated 'many camps' and hold high positions. They know that their strength lay in unification whether they agree with the war against Palestine or not. I am quite sure that if a search was to take place we would find some high ranking Jews in England also. I want to say right here and now that I am not against Jews, nor Muslims or any other faction be it racial or religious. What I don't like is warfare that is one sided. What is happening with Israel and Palestine right now is like a fight between a grown man and a 10 year old child, with the child taking a real beating.

Words will not be enough to back the Palestinians, I agree to that part. Threats and warnings have also been ignored by the Israelies. Actually, starting another world war isn't an answer either but this may just happen if too many countries start taking sides.

The only solution that is at all viable, from my point of view, is if many other countries do get involved by sending in massive amounts of peacekeepers, forcibly if necessary. And completely destroying all artillery belonging to both sides and remaining there for some years until both sides have cooled down completely. A complete ceasefire would be declared because either side firing on the other would also be firing on the troops from other countries. Further more I believe that both countries should be totally mixed up - half of the Palestinians put into Israel and half or more of the Israelies put into Palestine. Again either side firing on the other would be firing on their own people.

There are far too many Muslims and if sides are to be drawn and religions get mixed up with politics etc., the outcome may prove disastrous for a whole lot of people.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:16 am

Amber Sun;1112059 wrote: History has shown us that the Brits are not 'gutless', history has shown us most countries are not 'gutless'. Therein lies the problem because history has also shown us 2 world wars. I doubt that England will go up against the Israelies because the Jews learned very well from what happened to them during the last war. Now they have infiltrated 'many camps' and hold high positions. They know that their strength lay in unification whether they agree with the war against Palestine or not. I am quite sure that if a search was to take place we would find some high ranking Jews in England also. I want to say right here and now that I am not against Jews, nor Muslims or any other faction be it racial or religious. What I don't like is warfare that is one sided. What is happening with Israel and Palestine right now is like a fight between a grown man and a 10 year old child, with the child taking a real beating.

Words will not be enough to back the Palestinians, I agree to that part. Threats and warnings have also been ignored by the Israelies. Actually, starting another world war isn't an answer either but this may just happen if too many countries start taking sides.

The only solution that is at all viable, from my point of view, is if many other countries do get involved by sending in massive amounts of peacekeepers, forcibly if necessary. And completely destroying all artillery belonging to both sides and remaining there for some years until both sides have cooled down completely. A complete ceasefire would be declared because either side firing on the other would also be firing on the troops from other countries. Further more I believe that both countries should be totally mixed up - half of the Palestinians put into Israel and half or more of the Israelies put into Palestine. Again either side firing on the other would be firing on their own people.

There are far too many Muslims and if sides are to be drawn and religions get mixed up with politics etc., the outcome may prove disastrous for a whole lot of people.

I agree with what you are saying, however in England, it is a difficult situation for our country as we have such a large population of Muslim. As British citizens, they need to have the backing of our government just the same as any say 'white British' or Polish British. The government can not be seen to be ignoring them especially when we even have elected Asian Members of Parliment. The muslims here speak for a large % of the country.

Your suggestion regarding a peace-keeping mission by other countries is the ideal answer but i fear it would result in another Iraq and Afghanistan. We have enough troops coming home in body bags all ready and your suggestion could result in further hostility.

Whilst Israel needs the continual funding from America, i do not believe that Israel will ever reach an agreement with whatever country goes in as a peace-keeper. History has proved that. They will see it as interference from the outside world. You only have to look at the cease-fire called yesterday. What is Israel actually giving the people of Palistine in that cease-fire? Nothing. They have ordered Hamas to cease firing yet the Israeli's insist on remaining in Gaza for as long as they wish. That's not a cease-fire. that's a stand-off. For a real chance of a cease-fire, Israel needed to immediately with-draw from Gaza. They are not willing to do that and once again, they are taking with no giving to Palistine. Of course Hamas are going to continue to fire until Isarael is out of Gaza. They should never have entered in the first place and used intelligence to track down insurgents not bomb innocent Palistinians. Only time will tell if the Israeli's continue to block vital aid getting in to Gaza.

Israel would also bomb Iran should Iran reach the time of gaining nucleur weapons as they have already threatened with George Bush's backing. The world really has reached a point of being sick of this bullying Israel and the world is turning on them. With Obama pledging to hold the white flag up to Iran, this is going to aggrevate the situation with Israel all the more. As soon as Obama was elected, Israel sent their warning to him. I really do hope he is the one President who tells Israel the world is sick of them and denounces Bush's support for them and withdraws funding.

Rather than continue to give in to Israel or indeed send peace keeping missions out there, Israel need to meet Hamas half way. They have stripped the Palistinain's of their land, farms and business's. The only solution to this is to make Palistine a recognised independent state with Hamas as their elected government.

Amber Sun · Post by **Amber Sun** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:44 am

oscar;1112189 wrote: I agree with what you are saying, however in England, it is a difficult situation for our country as we have such a large population of Muslim. As British citizens, they need to have the backing of our government just the same as any say 'white British' or Polish British. The government can not be seen to be ignoring them especially when we even have elected Asian Members of Parliment. The muslims here speak for a large % of the country.

Your suggestion regarding a peace-keeping mission by other countries is the ideal answer but i fear it would result in another Iraq and Afghanistan. We have enough troops coming home in body bags all ready and your suggestion could result in further hostility.

Whilst Israel needs the continual funding from America, i do not believe that Israel will ever reach an agreement with whatever country goes in as a peace-keeper. History has proved that. They will see it as interference from the outside world. You only have to look at the cease-fire called yesterday. What is Israel actually giving the people of Palistine in that cease-fire? Nothing. They have ordered Hamas to cease firing yet the Israeli's insist on remaining in Gaza for as long as they wish. That's not a cease-fire. that's a stand-off. For a real chance of a cease-fire, Israel needed to immediately with-draw from Gaza. They are not willing to do that and once again, they are taking with no giving to Palistine. Of course Hamas are going to continue to fire until Isarael is out of Gaza. They should never have entered in the first place and used intelligence to track down insurgents not bomb innocent Palistinians. Only time will tell if the Israeli's continue to block vital aid getting in to Gaza.

Israel would also bomb Iran should Iran reach the time of gaining nucleur weapons as they have already threatened with George Bush's backing. The world really has reached a point of being sick of this bullying Israel and the world is turning on them. With Obama pledging to hold the white flag up to Iran, this is going to aggrevate the situation with Israel all the more. As soon as Obama was elected, Israel sent their warning to him. I really do hope he is the one President who tells Israel the world is sick of them and denounces Bush's support for them and withdraws funding.

Rather than continue to give in to Israel or indeed send peace keeping missions out there, Israel need to meet Hamas half way. They have stripped the Palistinain's of their land, farms and business's. The only solution to this is to make Palistine a recognised independent state with Hamas as their elected government.

With Obama pledging to hold the white flag up to Iran, this is going to aggrevate the situation with Israel all the more. As soon as Obama was elected, Israel sent their warning to him. I really do hope he is the one President who tells Israel the world is sick of them and denounces Bush's support for them and withdraws funding.

Problem here Oscar is that with Chertoff heading homeland security and in charge of 'protection' for the president Obama may very well himself in J.F.Kennedy's position. Maybe that is why Bush kept handing over money to the Israelies.

It is also possible that once Obama is sworn in etc, that Israel will stop the bombing for a while. They have already grabbed a lot of Palestinian land and caused numerous deaths and suffering.

If my peacekeeping idea wasn't much good then how about if hundreds of thousands of Muslims just move into Palestine? The Israelies aren't going to fight if they know that they will get as good as they give. What the Palestinians don't have is fighting man power so why don't the Muslims just move in? Israel is surrounded by Muslim nations they would be absolute fools to continue the fight.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:59 am

Amber Sun;1112207 wrote:

With Obama pledging to hold the white flag up to Iran, this is going to aggrevate the situation with Israel all the more. As soon as Obama was elected, Israel sent their warning to him. I really do hope he is the one President who tells Israel the world is sick of them and denounces Bush's support for them and withdraws funding.

Problem here Oscar is that with Chertoff heading homeland security and in charge of 'protection' for the president Obama may very well himself in J.F.Kennedy's position. Maybe that is why Bush kept handing over money to the Israelies.

It is also possible that once Obama is sworn in etc, that Israel will stop the bombing for a while. They have already grabbed a lot of Palestinian land and caused numerous deaths and suffering.

If my peacekeeping idea wasn't much good then how about if hundreds of thousands of Muslims just move into Palestine? The Israelies aren't going to fight if they know that they will get as good as they give. What the Palestinians don't have is fighting man power so why don't the Muslims just move in? Israel is surrounded by Muslim nations they would be absolute fools to continue the fight.

Chertoff really is the fly in the ointment is he not?

Are you refering to JFK's standoff with Krushchev and the cuban missile crisis?

The idea of hundreds and thousands of muslims moving into Palistine is more a potential worry and threat than a solution. I see that scenario becoming reality if this is not resolved soon. Hamas has Iran on their side and Obama holding out the olive branch to Iran is going to make things worse... but only for Israel.

Your peace keeping idea was something that is being considered world wide yet look at what the Israeli's did when anyone tried to help?

Israel Rams Aid Boat

Amber Sun · Post by **Amber Sun** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:12 am

oscar;1112210 wrote: Chertoff really is the fly in the ointment is he not?

Are you refering to JFK's standoff with Krushchev and the cuban missile crisis?

The idea of hundreds and thousands of muslims moving into Palistine is more a potential worry and threat than a solution. I see that scenario becoming reality if this is not resolved soon. Hamas has Iran on their side and Obama holding out the olive branch to Iran is going to make things worse... but only for Israel.

Your peace keeping idea was something that is being considered world wide yet look at what the Israeli's did when anyone tried to help?

Israel Rams Aid Boat

No, I was referring to JFK being dead. There are still many people that feel that the CIA was a part of it all. I don't think we will ever know for sure.

However I just picked up this link that became news one and a half hours ago about a 'cease fire' and Israel pulling out. Look it over and see what you think.

Hamas announces ceasefire after Israel declares truce - Yahoo! Canada News