Recently, the legislature in Iran voted a law making apostasy subject to the death penalty. In Afghanistan proselytizing is illegal and this week a 34 year old female aid worker was gunned down by the Taliban who said she was spreading her religion. In India, Hindus are telling Christians to leave their villages or their homes will be burned and they will be killed, Muslims in the Saudi Arabia teach hatred of Jews in school books, so much for the farce of being tolerant..
All this got me to thinking; does religion do more harm than good? Certainly many people find comfort and peace in their religious beliefs, and many good things come from religion, but on the other hand religion can be traced as the root cause for many wars, torture, intolerance and any number of things that one would associate with being counter to goodness, peace and love.
Religion started with the quest to deal with the unknown, like death, the weather, hardships, etc. it then developed into hundreds, if not thousands of variations each believing their view to be the correct one for all mankind. How is that possible?
How can religion be both good and evil? I submit it is the involvement of human beings that distort and pervert any religion and that the unfortunate truth is that organized religion is a tool in the hands of man, sometimes very beneficial but often just the opposite when it suites those in power. If that is true, then whatever religion one embraces is irrelevant as long as it does not seek dominance over other beliefs.
Over the history of man has religion done more harm than good? How is it possible for their to be one “right†religion when there are so many religions and our personal religion is more often than not, a happenstance of our birth?
Religion Is Not Always Good
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QUINNSCOMMENTARY
- Posts: 901
- Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 4:56 pm
Religion Is Not Always Good
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
Quinnscommentary
Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty.
Quinnscommentary Blog
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
Quinnscommentary
Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty.
Quinnscommentary Blog
Religion Is Not Always Good
quinn:-6
An excellent question Worthy of much thought.
Personally I believe that the problem lies with the extremists on all sides. The extremists take an otherwise valid and valued faith and turn it into a tool to be used, not for good, but their own evil purposes. Exclusivism is a profoundly divisive idea and hurts many folks around the world. These are not from the divine in any way.
The two basic roots of all the great faiths are justice (distributive) and compassion. You are correct in noticing there is not a great deal of that in all faiths.
Shalom
Ted:-6
An excellent question Worthy of much thought.
Personally I believe that the problem lies with the extremists on all sides. The extremists take an otherwise valid and valued faith and turn it into a tool to be used, not for good, but their own evil purposes. Exclusivism is a profoundly divisive idea and hurts many folks around the world. These are not from the divine in any way.
The two basic roots of all the great faiths are justice (distributive) and compassion. You are correct in noticing there is not a great deal of that in all faiths.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
Religion seems to imbue some with guilt that should feel no guilt and others with fear that should not be fearful. I understand the roots of Self Flagellation, Christians & Muslims, good night!!! I have met so many mentally disturbed people, where their mental state has been brought on by religion. I am one that has less than positive opinions about the whole religious experience. The past three days of visiting my new great grand daughter and family, some 30 people (all Evangelicals) who pray for this poor heathen of a great grand dad on a regular basis. I appreciate that, but really not necessary. Boy---------am I the outsider.
Religion Is Not Always Good
Lon:-6
I can agree with a good deal of that post.
The use of fear and guilt is reprehensible and dangerous.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I can agree with a good deal of that post.
The use of fear and guilt is reprehensible and dangerous.
Shalom
Ted:-6
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wildhorses
- Posts: 648
- Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:08 pm
Religion Is Not Always Good
Religion can be a source of comfort during hard times....and life gives us plenty of hard times. Religion is good for spiritual nourishment and strength. But I think religion is most productive when kept to oneself.
The problem starts when people from any religion try to control others beliefs....or force their religion on others. They think everyone has to believe in their religion. Maybe they feel threatened....I don't know.
Organized religion is notorious for trying to control followers and non followers alike. It is this attempt at control that destroys the spiritual nature of religion. Then it is no longer religion....but some form of politics. Organized religion is also about making money and recruiting followers...not to save them, but to make money from them.
The problem starts when people from any religion try to control others beliefs....or force their religion on others. They think everyone has to believe in their religion. Maybe they feel threatened....I don't know.
Organized religion is notorious for trying to control followers and non followers alike. It is this attempt at control that destroys the spiritual nature of religion. Then it is no longer religion....but some form of politics. Organized religion is also about making money and recruiting followers...not to save them, but to make money from them.
Religion Is Not Always Good
wild:-6
I can certainly agree with the first two paragraphs. Just look at the fundamentalist thread in Christianity.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I can certainly agree with the first two paragraphs. Just look at the fundamentalist thread in Christianity.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
I do think wild is correct in the comment re insecurity. It seems to me that what many folks really need to boost their confidence is for others to agree with them. So much for faith.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Shalom
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
JAB:-6
It seems to me that the burning desire is to gain security by having as many folks as possible agree with them. The same holds true in the necessity for an inerrant Bible. They need a contract signed sealed and delivered to boost their security. This it would seem to me shows a decided lack of trust in the divine.
I've been there and done that.
Shalom
Ted
It seems to me that the burning desire is to gain security by having as many folks as possible agree with them. The same holds true in the necessity for an inerrant Bible. They need a contract signed sealed and delivered to boost their security. This it would seem to me shows a decided lack of trust in the divine.
I've been there and done that.
Shalom
Ted
Religion Is Not Always Good
JAB:-6
Actually I don't need the scholarship to support my faith. What it does do is show me that I believe I am on a correct path for me. It supports what I had already come to believe. No I don't need it for faith.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Actually I don't need the scholarship to support my faith. What it does do is show me that I believe I am on a correct path for me. It supports what I had already come to believe. No I don't need it for faith.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
I do note the "heat" I am getting on the Christian side of the forum. It shows all of the things that I've been reading in here. It further convinces me that I did in fact make the right decision. I left that milieu because I felt it was wrong and immoral. I firmly believe that approach is morally wrong. Think of the person who decides to "get saved" because he is afraid of going to hell. That is a rather selfish motive and certainly not a valid one in my view in view of the saying that "We love Him because He first loved us."
The second thing I really object to is the badgering of someone on their death bed to "repent and be saved" so that they can go to heaven. Once again the motivation is in error in view of "We love Him because He first loved us." Once again a selfish motive.
To add to all of that there is the fact of some 22 000 Christian denominations around the world as well as the myriad of small offshoots that think they and they alone have the correct way. There is a church in Victoria called the Church of Truth. This is blatant arrogance and in my view unacceptable. When I am told I am spreading poison water the author of that declaration is simply giving his/her own unfounded judgment. Actually the clergy I know had a good laugh at the arrogance. Of course the author is free to believe whatever but has absolutely no right God given or otherwise to pass judgment on anyone else except them self.
The reformers and those that followed have definitely created God in the image they want. They use human terms, human motivations; the idea of some great judgment at the end of time and hell fires is simply the desire to see some justice for the martyrs. It is an attempt get human judgment when we are clearly told that God does not think as we do. It is time to leave the personal judgments up to God if one so believes. Far too many folks are trying to tell God, if you so believe, how to run the show.
If the divine exists and I personally believe it does we are incapable of grasping the real concept. We lack the intelligence and the conceptualization ability.
At any rate to each his/her own.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The second thing I really object to is the badgering of someone on their death bed to "repent and be saved" so that they can go to heaven. Once again the motivation is in error in view of "We love Him because He first loved us." Once again a selfish motive.
To add to all of that there is the fact of some 22 000 Christian denominations around the world as well as the myriad of small offshoots that think they and they alone have the correct way. There is a church in Victoria called the Church of Truth. This is blatant arrogance and in my view unacceptable. When I am told I am spreading poison water the author of that declaration is simply giving his/her own unfounded judgment. Actually the clergy I know had a good laugh at the arrogance. Of course the author is free to believe whatever but has absolutely no right God given or otherwise to pass judgment on anyone else except them self.
The reformers and those that followed have definitely created God in the image they want. They use human terms, human motivations; the idea of some great judgment at the end of time and hell fires is simply the desire to see some justice for the martyrs. It is an attempt get human judgment when we are clearly told that God does not think as we do. It is time to leave the personal judgments up to God if one so believes. Far too many folks are trying to tell God, if you so believe, how to run the show.
If the divine exists and I personally believe it does we are incapable of grasping the real concept. We lack the intelligence and the conceptualization ability.
At any rate to each his/her own.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
JAB:-6
A strong attack deserves a strong rebuttal. Nothing more nothing less.
Somehow or another there are those who think that an alternative view is not appropriate. Thus I spread poisoned water. LOL
So what is wrong with an alternative view?
Shalom
Ted:-6
A strong attack deserves a strong rebuttal. Nothing more nothing less.
Somehow or another there are those who think that an alternative view is not appropriate. Thus I spread poisoned water. LOL
So what is wrong with an alternative view?
Shalom
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester:-6
I can concur with that one hundred percent. Whose view or whose concept?
Shalom
Ted:-6
I can concur with that one hundred percent. Whose view or whose concept?
Shalom
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester:-6
There you go. Why am I not surprised. Personal attaks come in when folks have nothing else to say.
You still haven't answered my question.
Blessings
Ted:-6
There you go. Why am I not surprised. Personal attaks come in when folks have nothing else to say.
You still haven't answered my question.
Blessings
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester:-6
Think about it for awhile.
I had a grade 5 class who knew better than to use put down. That is a fact and not an attack.
You are giving me exactly what I left the fundamentalist church over. You may call it Christian if you want. Millions disagree.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Think about it for awhile.
I had a grade 5 class who knew better than to use put down. That is a fact and not an attack.
You are giving me exactly what I left the fundamentalist church over. You may call it Christian if you want. Millions disagree.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester:-6
The difference is rather simple I have not attacked an individual by name calling or judging. What I have done is to attack an idea. There is a big difference. It just adds to what I've been saying about fundamentalism. Once again the fundamentalists have to resort to personal attacks. Others can judge for themselves.
You still haven't answered my question.
Blessings
Ted:-6
The difference is rather simple I have not attacked an individual by name calling or judging. What I have done is to attack an idea. There is a big difference. It just adds to what I've been saying about fundamentalism. Once again the fundamentalists have to resort to personal attacks. Others can judge for themselves.
You still haven't answered my question.
Blessings
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester;1030186 wrote: You need to look in the mirror bud, and then remember what you look like when you walk away!
I don't see why anyone discusses their religion is seen as trying to brainwash others...
People have the right to free speech in the same way you have the right to say how much you'd like everyone to be armed and readily brandishing a loaded firearm...
What's the difference?...
Seems a bit hypocritical to me...
I don't see why anyone discusses their religion is seen as trying to brainwash others...
People have the right to free speech in the same way you have the right to say how much you'd like everyone to be armed and readily brandishing a loaded firearm...
What's the difference?...
Seems a bit hypocritical to me...
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester:-6
It is rather simple. I left the fundamentalist fold because for me I decided that it was morally wrong.
When you have to resort to words like liar you are using a put down and making a personal attack. Nothing at all, has changed since I left that fold. In my view it is not what I know as the message of one Jesus of Nazareth. But, I am content to let God be the judge.
Shalom
Ted:-6
It is rather simple. I left the fundamentalist fold because for me I decided that it was morally wrong.
When you have to resort to words like liar you are using a put down and making a personal attack. Nothing at all, has changed since I left that fold. In my view it is not what I know as the message of one Jesus of Nazareth. But, I am content to let God be the judge.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
By the way there is absolutely nothing wrong with religion.
There is however everything wrong with the ill actions people take in the name of said religion.
Huge difference.
There is however everything wrong with the ill actions people take in the name of said religion.
Huge difference.
Religion Is Not Always Good
JAB:-6
Let's look at this.
I present an alternative point of view. I do not judge other folks. In fact I have constantly said that people are entitled to believe as they wish.
Than I am being accused of being a liar and spreading poison water.
This is not the behaviour or the teachings that I see coming from one Jesus of Nazareth the Christ.
In fact as I've said before, it is typical of the treatment I've had from many fundamentalists. The approach is pure unfounded arrogance.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Let's look at this.
I present an alternative point of view. I do not judge other folks. In fact I have constantly said that people are entitled to believe as they wish.
Than I am being accused of being a liar and spreading poison water.
This is not the behaviour or the teachings that I see coming from one Jesus of Nazareth the Christ.
In fact as I've said before, it is typical of the treatment I've had from many fundamentalists. The approach is pure unfounded arrogance.
Shalom
Ted:-6
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QUINNSCOMMENTARY
- Posts: 901
- Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 4:56 pm
Religion Is Not Always Good
wildhorses;1030133 wrote: Religion can be a source of comfort during hard times....and life gives us plenty of hard times. Religion is good for spiritual nourishment and strength. But I think religion is most productive when kept to oneself.
The problem starts when people from any religion try to control others beliefs....or force their religion on others. They think everyone has to believe in their religion. Maybe they feel threatened....I don't know.
Organized religion is notorious for trying to control followers and non followers alike. It is this attempt at control that destroys the spiritual nature of religion. Then it is no longer religion....but some form of politics. Organized religion is also about making money and recruiting followers...not to save them, but to make money from them.
There you go, well said.
The problem starts when people from any religion try to control others beliefs....or force their religion on others. They think everyone has to believe in their religion. Maybe they feel threatened....I don't know.
Organized religion is notorious for trying to control followers and non followers alike. It is this attempt at control that destroys the spiritual nature of religion. Then it is no longer religion....but some form of politics. Organized religion is also about making money and recruiting followers...not to save them, but to make money from them.
There you go, well said.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
Quinnscommentary
Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty.
Quinnscommentary Blog
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
Quinnscommentary
Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty.
Quinnscommentary Blog
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester:-6
Nonsense. Out of millions Christians around the world are you telling me you have the only way? If you are its a joke. Everyone's out of step but me. LOL No bollocks.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Nonsense. Out of millions Christians around the world are you telling me you have the only way? If you are its a joke. Everyone's out of step but me. LOL No bollocks.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester:-6
Now you take liberties with God's judgment. Placing one's self in God's role is not appropriate.
You say I distort God's word. The orthodoxy that you follow cannot be traced back to the original church but is the invention of the reformation. Try reading a little church history. Perhaps you should let God be the judge. I most certainly will and with confidence.
You speak of free speech but you would deny me mine on the basis of your own opinion. That is arrogance pure and simple. Typical.
You do not preach the Christianity that I see manifest in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Now you take liberties with God's judgment. Placing one's self in God's role is not appropriate.
You say I distort God's word. The orthodoxy that you follow cannot be traced back to the original church but is the invention of the reformation. Try reading a little church history. Perhaps you should let God be the judge. I most certainly will and with confidence.
You speak of free speech but you would deny me mine on the basis of your own opinion. That is arrogance pure and simple. Typical.
You do not preach the Christianity that I see manifest in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
JAB:-6
You are wrong. I have repeatedly said that folks can believe as they will but when I present an alternative view an attempt is made to silence me.
So you condone calling people names, using put down, and judging people. Just as an aside show me where I've called names or tried to prevent free speech or tried to shut anyone up.
Get it into your head. I attack ideas.
As for the fundamentalists that hurt me and my family I forgave them along time ago but I will not let their nonsense go unanswered. If there are those who want to be fundamentalists then let them do so. They should also realize there are other points of view that are just as valid.
As far as personal attacks on myself go they are simply an example of what I've been saying for years. It's kind of like "I'll make a Christian, in my view, out of them, even if I have to kill them..
At any rate you are entitled to your opinion.
Shalom
Ted:-6
You are wrong. I have repeatedly said that folks can believe as they will but when I present an alternative view an attempt is made to silence me.
So you condone calling people names, using put down, and judging people. Just as an aside show me where I've called names or tried to prevent free speech or tried to shut anyone up.
Get it into your head. I attack ideas.
As for the fundamentalists that hurt me and my family I forgave them along time ago but I will not let their nonsense go unanswered. If there are those who want to be fundamentalists then let them do so. They should also realize there are other points of view that are just as valid.
As far as personal attacks on myself go they are simply an example of what I've been saying for years. It's kind of like "I'll make a Christian, in my view, out of them, even if I have to kill them..
At any rate you are entitled to your opinion.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester:-6
Yes, I admit I attack fundamentalism. I attack a concept, an idea. I do not attack folks by saying they spread poison water or they are liars etc. When you can't attack what I say you attack me. It really is immaterial to me. I have every right to say what I want. I have no desire to proselytize. I present an alternative view and you don't like it and would like me to shut up. Not likely.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Yes, I admit I attack fundamentalism. I attack a concept, an idea. I do not attack folks by saying they spread poison water or they are liars etc. When you can't attack what I say you attack me. It really is immaterial to me. I have every right to say what I want. I have no desire to proselytize. I present an alternative view and you don't like it and would like me to shut up. Not likely.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester:-6
You attack me personally. I have not called you a liar or said that you spread poisoned water etc.
You are entitled to your opinion. What you are saying is that out of millions of Christians you have it all and correct. No, that is simply nonsense.
Shalom
Ted:-6
You attack me personally. I have not called you a liar or said that you spread poisoned water etc.
You are entitled to your opinion. What you are saying is that out of millions of Christians you have it all and correct. No, that is simply nonsense.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester;1030215 wrote: Hypothetically speaking...
People do have the right to free speech, what if I told you that it would save the life of your sister and all her desendents if they followed the bible but if they followed Ted's man made religious divisions or pluralism they'd be cast into outer darkness becaseu they had an incorrect view of the almighty God? Would you allow my words to seek them? I can't say I would allow your words to seek them because I don't know what your words are...I can say however if at any point anything in existence threatened the lives of myself and the people I love I would terminate such existence before I even had the chance to be prejudice about it. And then I'd sleep like a baby who's just had their belly filled with warm milk that same night.
Jester;1030215 wrote:
Free speech is a two way road buddy. Right? Or am I somehow stopping Ted from advancing his opinions? You see Im not telling him he cant say what he wants to say, Im telling him he's telling people things that are not true about God.
I was responding to your response towards Ted stating that he agreed with wildhorses. Ted hadn't, during that statement, tried to have others conform to his ideology. In fact I haven't read any of Teds posts that illustrated ones need to conform to his ideology...
The rest I'll leave to you both...
People do have the right to free speech, what if I told you that it would save the life of your sister and all her desendents if they followed the bible but if they followed Ted's man made religious divisions or pluralism they'd be cast into outer darkness becaseu they had an incorrect view of the almighty God? Would you allow my words to seek them? I can't say I would allow your words to seek them because I don't know what your words are...I can say however if at any point anything in existence threatened the lives of myself and the people I love I would terminate such existence before I even had the chance to be prejudice about it. And then I'd sleep like a baby who's just had their belly filled with warm milk that same night.
Jester;1030215 wrote:
Free speech is a two way road buddy. Right? Or am I somehow stopping Ted from advancing his opinions? You see Im not telling him he cant say what he wants to say, Im telling him he's telling people things that are not true about God.
I was responding to your response towards Ted stating that he agreed with wildhorses. Ted hadn't, during that statement, tried to have others conform to his ideology. In fact I haven't read any of Teds posts that illustrated ones need to conform to his ideology...
The rest I'll leave to you both...
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester:-6
"False martyr!". Once again you cannot attack the idea but make a personal attack.
You have simply further convinced me that I made the right move years ago. Not surprised.
Shalom
Ted:-6
"False martyr!". Once again you cannot attack the idea but make a personal attack.
You have simply further convinced me that I made the right move years ago. Not surprised.
Shalom
Ted:-6