Religious Displays in Public

QUINNSCOMMENTARY · Post by **QUINNSCOMMENTARY** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:01 pm

I was just in a restaurant and the people sitting next to me began their meal holding hands and praying. While in Heathrow airport last week there were several orthodox Jews in their traditional clothing praying, swaying back and forth, and reading from a book, presumably the Torah, out loud.

I am not an overly religious person and I am definitely not a person who would display any religious activity or special garb in public, I find religion a very personal and very private experience, but obviously my views are my views and not shared by many people. I actually find overt public displays of religious beliefs or practices embarrassing.

How do you feel when the person sitting next to you starts praying or reading out load from his or her Holy book? :yh_think

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:05 pm

I see your point but not sure they who are doing it find it offensive or embarassing. Just the way it is these days everything is out in the open. I guess it beats the heck out of them killing people or hurting others, it is praying nothing else.

QUINNSCOMMENTARY · Post by **QUINNSCOMMENTARY** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:09 pm

CARLA;968639 wrote: I see your point but not sure they who are doing it find it offensive or embarassing. Just the way it is these days everything is out in the open. I guess it beats the heck out of them killing people or hurting others, it is praying nothing else.

I'm sure they don't, they obviously feel such action is not only normal but I suspect required of them.

But how do you feel about it?

Carolly · Post by **Carolly** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:12 pm

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;968637 wrote: I was just in a restaurant and the people sitting next to me began their meal holding hands and praying. While in Heathrow airport last week there were several orthodox Jews in their traditional clothing praying, swaying back and forth, and reading from a book, presumably the Torah, out loud.

I am not an overly religious person and I am definitely not a person who would display any religious activity or special garb in public, I find religion a very personal and very private experience, but obviously my views are my views and not shared by many people. I actually find overt public displays of religious beliefs or practices embarrassing.

How do you feel when the person sitting next to you starts praying or reading out load from his or her Holy book? :yh_think
It really does not bother me one little bit.Who am I to judge somebody who does this just because I may have different views regarding their religion.No its upto them if they decide to pray to their God just as its my choice to suddenly get up and sing which would upset people alot more no doubt;)

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:24 pm

It doesn't bother me at all as long as it stays peaceful and they don't try and push their agenda on me.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:25 pm

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;968637 wrote: I was just in a restaurant and the people sitting next to me began their meal holding hands and praying. While in Heathrow airport last week there were several orthodox Jews in their traditional clothing praying, swaying back and forth, and reading from a book, presumably the Torah, out loud.

I am not an overly religious person and I am definitely not a person who would display any religious activity or special garb in public, I find religion a very personal and very private experience, but obviously my views are my views and not shared by many people. I actually find overt public displays of religious beliefs or practices embarrassing.

How do you feel when the person sitting next to you starts praying or reading out load from his or her Holy book? :yh_think

Just for once I find myself in agreement with you. I always find it presumptuousness at formal dinners when they say grace-I accept it as part of social convention but the assumption we all agree to it nigles. The diners at heathrow and those praying aloud show a lack of consideration for others IMO. Demanding respect and tolerance for their religion but have no respect for those who don't want any part of it.

Next time sacrifice a rabbit and examine the entrails claiming to be a pagan.:sneaky:

QUINNSCOMMENTARY · Post by **QUINNSCOMMENTARY** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:33 pm

gmc;968685 wrote: Just for once I find myself in agreement with you. I always find it presumptuousness at formal dinners when they say grace-I accept it as part of social convention but the assumption we all agree to it nigles. The diners at heathrow and those praying aloud show a lack of consideration for others IMO. Demanding respect and tolerance for their religion but have no respect for those who don't want any part of it.

Next time sacrifice a rabbit and examine the entrails claiming to be a pagan.:sneaky:

Just for once? I'm crushed, but I'll take it just the same.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:42 pm

Just for once I find myself in agreement with you. I always find it presumptuousness at formal dinners when they say grace-I accept it as part of social convention but the assumption we all agree to it nigles. Don't accept invitations to those occasions where something would bother you.

The diners at heathrow and those praying aloud show a lack of consideration for others IMO. There is no lack of consideration, or we become intolerant of everything within a crowd of people-hair color, dress style, perfume, etc.

Demanding respect and tolerance for their religion but have no respect for those who don't want any part of it.They did not demand anything of you, if you do not want to participate you do not have to, you can always turn and walk away.

Next time sacrifice a rabbit and examine the entrails claiming to be a pagan.Yikes!

I do not see anything wrong with praying over a meal in public, as long as it is done quietly and respectfully. What about other person's conversations during mealtime, on other topics you would find objectionable? Or clothing styles and manners? That is the chance you take in going into a public venue, there will be others with different beliefs, cultures, etc.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:52 pm

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;968688 wrote: Just for once? I'm crushed, but I'll take it just the same.

Well most of the time I can appreciate where you are coming from and we probably agree a great deal about the basics but would argue endlessly about the means to get there.

My Presbyterian upbringing abhors overt displays of religious fervour but being a liberal I try to be tolerant of others and not condemn too harshly.

along-for-the-ride · Post by **along-for-the-ride** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:06 pm

Public displays of affection and religious beliefs happen. When I see it, I usually smile to myself and go about my business.

Attached files

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:11 pm

On the bus back to the Melbourne airport on Saturday evening, the bloke in the seat next to me - who'd been smiling at me in a chatting up kind of way, suddenly took out a religious publication and began to harangue me about whatever cult he was into. I told him politely that I wasn't up for conversion at that time, but he continued anyway for the duration of the journey. Other passengers rolled their eyes in sympathy. Perhaps if I'd just remembered to carry my little golden sickle I could have chopped off his oak leaves and burned his entrails (but airport security probably would have religiously persecuted me for such self expression).

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:22 pm

I find public displays of religion to be in very poor taste.

It belongs in private or in church.

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:26 pm

When I was at Dubai airport I saw many people praying, it never bothered me in fact I was intrigued.

QUINNSCOMMENTARY · Post by **QUINNSCOMMENTARY** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:49 pm

gmc;968710 wrote: Well most of the time I can appreciate where you are coming from and we probably agree a great deal about the basics but would argue endlessly about the means to get there.

My Presbyterian upbringing abhors overt displays of religious fervour but being a liberal I try to be tolerant of others and not condemn too harshly.

There you have it then, I must be affected by my Presbyterian roots as well. Frankly I never thought of it. I would have thought a Presbyterian background would have sent you to a more conservative philosophy, it cetainly did me.

You know hard work, family and frugality.

Sheryl · Post by **Sheryl** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:02 pm

People praying in public doesn't bother me. I'd rather see that than some rude person eating with their mouthful or a couple getting a little to frisky in front of me.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:03 pm

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;968637 wrote: I was just in a restaurant and the people sitting next to me began their meal holding hands and praying.

I find this no different than someone placing a bib within their shirt...

I'm wondering what others feel about those who place bibs within their shirt before they eat...

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:37 am

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;968779 wrote: There you have it then, I must be affected by my Presbyterian roots as well. Frankly I never thought of it. I would have thought a Presbyterian background would have sent you to a more conservative philosophy, it cetainly did me.

You know hard work, family and frugality.

It also gives a sense of egalitarianism that tends towards more radical liberal attitudes- If you believe all are equal in the eyes of god why not on earth is the next question, boom -now you are daring to question the natural the social order.

Adam Smith for instance was a Presbyterian so were a surprising number of the political philosophers that had such an impact on the way we live today. Or they have a protestant background Thomas paine, for instance, was born of a quaker and an anglican, imagine the debates in that house as he was growing up.

posted by chonsgirl

I do not see anything wrong with praying over a meal in public, as long as it is done quietly and respectfully. What about other person's conversations during mealtime, on other topics you would find objectionable? Or clothing styles and manners? That is the chance you take in going into a public venue, there will be others with different beliefs, cultures, etc.

There are a lot of things I can find objectionable, loud conversations in public is I suppose one of them so is seeing two blokes or two women holding hands in public, goth and punk fashion doesn't appeal either. But I respect their right to be different from me just as I expect them to respect my right to be different from them. Differences are what make the world a better place it's those who want everyone to conform to them that are a problem. On both the occasions QC mentions I would have said nothing to them. I stopped being embarrassed for what others do a long time ago. Their lives let them get on with it. I would find it irritating though which is what he asked.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:16 am

Hoss;968958 wrote: Amen!

Everywhere I go I am forced to hear people say dirty words, its common place now, and kids say it even to their parents, and the thing is the parents don't mind at all. I think to myself they all must be stupid because they cont find a dictionary and get a real word that fits what they want to say so they use the same vulgar words over and over. What is it that you're concerned with when you hear a child cursing?...Are you concerned for the community lacking an extenuated vocabulary resulting in hazardous work environments or the fact that they might say the cuss word only to hear someone else say it as well?...Is it that you feel parents send a message to their children that the children are permitted to be out of control?...If so and the parents do not mind wouldn't you think that the only reason for this would logically be because others feel it's inappropriate?...Take the word "Bugger" for instance...A curse word in the UK...Here in the states "Bugger" means nothing to us...In fact when we hear it more often than not we think of a nat flying around our ear...Now take the word "Fag"...Here it quite blatantly is a derogatory word towards homosexuals but in the UK it refers to smoking a cigarette...

I've never been one to think children cursing was very classy because I feel it signifies a lack of guidance...I think children get the sense of being uncontrollable when parents do not set a standard of rules to follow and it gives the children a false sense of correctness...I think it leads to unethical choices...

Hoss;968958 wrote:

I pray in public, I bow my head and speak quietly to myself. I do this when I'm on the job and things are not going well and I’m getting ready to loose my self control, same thing, I will stop and pray and remember what Christ did for me and then I don’t blow up. They all think I’m odd for doing it too. But I don’t care.

I think some folks want me to blow up and cuss, so I won’t be a conviction to them. By God's grace I'm not going to do it. This goes back to the interpretation clause...You're making a temperamental situation to one that seems like a completely harmless spat of frustration sound like a damn mule's getting it's bleedin head chopped off...Why is it that you feel you're more right than those who cuss?...

I couldn't think of a more humoring way to release frustration whereas you seem to hold it all inside until the point "things are not going well and I’m getting ready to loose my self control, same thing, I will stop and pray and remember what Christ did for me and then I don’t blow up."...

Hoss;968958 wrote:

Mr. Quinn would you rather I just stand up before my meal and yell FU in the restaurant? I'd prefer that you wouldn't...Why would you want to do something like that?...Your reference to "F" is what Quinn's after and your incorporating the word "you" in a blatantly aggressive manner not only would but should get your *** kicked...

Hoss;968958 wrote:

Col 4:6 Let your speech [be] alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man. You feel cursing negates this philosophy?...

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:22 am

RedGlitter;968742 wrote: I find public displays of religion to be in very poor taste.

It belongs in private or in church.

Why do you feel that way RedGlitter?...

Shouldn't everyone have the freedom to do as they wish?...

You don't believe in free speech?...

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:29 am

K.Snyder;969020 wrote: Why do you feel that way RedGlitter?...

Shouldn't everyone have the freedom to do as they wish?...

You don't believe in free speech?...

Boy, you're salty tonight, K.

You can't have people do everything they wish or you'd have chaos.

However as it pertains to this issue, does the bible not say "keep me in your heart?" There are those of us who take that to mean keep God a private matter. You may not get my logic here, but to me religion and displays of it are more private and personal than even sex. Deeply so.

Praying in public by the way is not about free speech. Well the vocal part may be, but it's freedom of action you're looking for and last I knew the Constitution didn't address that part.

For a lot of people it's how they are raised. That may be true for me also. It's not that we aren't religious, it's that our business with our God is that of no one else. Some things should be private and I think prayer is one of them.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:43 am

RedGlitter;969025 wrote: Boy, you're salty tonight, K.

You can't have people do everything they wish or you'd have chaos.You most assuredly can have people do as they wish without creating chaos...It's dependent on the morale sanctity of those involved...I wouldn't expect to cage everyone because they have too much freedom...I would however cage someone who'd taken that freedom as an initiative to harm another...Praying does not harm others...

RedGlitter;969025 wrote:

However as it pertains to this issue, does the bible not say "keep me in your heart?" There are those of us who take that to mean keep God a private matter. You may not get my logic here, but to me religion and displays of it are more private and personal than even sex. Deeply so. Ok we can always discuss other religion without the use of the word "bible"...Why would you ban anyone from kneeling to the ground or conducting a burial service?...After all burial services are rituals...Just because one may claim it's not religious doesn't change the relationship...If so would we ban people from even being on the ground just because it resembles someone kneeling and praying?...

RedGlitter;969025 wrote:

Praying in public by the way is not about free speech. Well the vocal part may be, but it's freedom of action you're looking for and last I knew the Constitution didn't address that part.It has everything to do with free speech...Freedom of speech is freedom of action scarce of neighboring harm...There's no difference between a gathering of presidential elections and a Sunday afternoon at church...What's left is the discrimination of ones' beliefs...

RedGlitter;969025 wrote:

For a lot of people it's how they are raised. That may be true for me also. It's not that we aren't religious, it's that our business with our God is that of no one else. Some things should be private and I think prayer is one of them. I do not. However if one wishes to make their religious experience personal I completely would have no problem with that either...Nor would I if they do not...

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:45 am

When I see diners make a public display of praying in public, I always feel sort of sorry for them. To me its like they have to make an outward statement about their personal beliefs. Its like they have never grasped the concept of being examples in the way they live, or the qualities they project

to others without the showmanship. I have always been the most intrigued by people who never utter a word regarding what they believe. But their calm and kind demeanors draw mw to them, wanting to know more about them, and their views on spirituality.

Public displays of praying or worshiping always bring Tammy Faye and Jim Baker to my mind. The kind of people who drew public attention to their religious life, but who were really two snakes in the grass.

I avoid religious zealots like the plague. Anyone who preaches to me once, never gets a second chance to be in my company. And just as a side note....

the general rule for those of us who wait on public prayers......... they are always crummy tippers. The reason I mention this, is because it is an indicator of their lack of connection to other human beings.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:51 am

weeder;969034 wrote: When I see diners make a public display of praying in public, I always feel sort of sorry for them. To me its like they have to make an outward statement about their personal beliefs. Its like they have never grasped the concept of being examples in the way they live, or the qualities they project

to others without the showmanship. Yes but they're not doing it to show others...The concept of prayer is to show ones "God" their faith and their concern for others' well being...It just so happens that others happen to see them doing it...

weeder;969034 wrote:

And just as a side note....the general rule for those of us who wait on public prayers......... they are always crummy tippers. The reason I mention this, is because it is an indicator of their lack of connection to other human beings.

Ah but how do you know those "tippers" hadn't taken that money and given it to starving children?...I think it's safe to assume that an American upholding a job isn't in dire need of a few bucks so they may have the luxury of biting into a potato...

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:56 am

K.Snyder;969031 wrote: You most assuredly can have people do as they wish without creating chaos...It's dependent on the morale sanctity of those involved...I wouldn't expect to cage everyone because they have too much freedom...I would however cage someone who'd taken that freedom as an initiative to harm another...Praying does not harm others...

Ok we can always discuss other religion without the use of the word "bible"...Why would you ban anyone from kneeling to the ground or conducting a burial service?...After all burial services are rituals...Just because one may claim it's not religious doesn't change the relationship...If so would we ban people from even being on the ground just because it resembles someone kneeling and praying?...

It has everything to do with free speech...Freedom of speech is freedom of action scarce of neighboring harm...There's no difference between a gathering of presidential elections and a Sunday afternoon at church...What's left is the discrimination of ones' beliefs...

I do not. However if one wishes to make their religious experience personal I completely would have no problem with that either...Nor would I if they do not...

To start with, where did you decide I thought it should be banned?? I never said that. I replied to Quinn that I thought it was in poor taste. I do. I make no apologies. Now where did I say it should be banned?

Nobody's caging anyone either. Society has a way of setting its limits and often times it uses ostracization. This is not caging anyone for their beliefs.

It's not about anyone's moral sanctity either. You're not supposed to make people uncomfortable in public. Its considered ill mannered. Praying in public makes some people uncomfy. If it's a quiet thing I have little problem with it. But if someone starts "spreading the word of God" to me, I'm going to get hostile at their presumption and I will put them right.

This idea that everyone should do as they damn well please and to hell with everyone who doesn't like it is partly why this world is so sh*tty today.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:59 am

Yes but they're not doing it to show others...The concept of prayer is to show ones "God" their faith and their concern for others' well being...It just so happens that others happen to see them doing it...

God already knows what's in a person's heart and the extent of their faith. God doesn't require everyone else be privy to it. But I'm probably talking about a different God.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:03 am

RedGlitter;969037 wrote: To start with, where did you decide I thought it should be banned?? I never said that. I replied to Quinn that I thought it was in poor taste. I do. I make no apologies. Now where did I say it should be banned? Well one of my primary beliefs is that people are either for or against something...If you feel it's in "poor taste" and you upheld a job that dictated the law associated with said concern would you or would you not change that law to ban the practices?..."You're not supposed to make people uncomfortable in public." gives me every reason to assume you're against it and wish it to be banned...

RedGlitter;969037 wrote:

It's not about anyone's moral sanctity either. You're not supposed to make people uncomfortable in public. Its considered ill mannered. Praying in public makes some people uncomfy. If it's a quiet thing I have little problem with it. But if someone starts "spreading the word of God" to me, I'm going to get hostile at their presumption and I will put them right. This is a matter of opinion...It's the entire focal point of the thread...I can just as easily say public displays of religious beliefs do not bother most people...

RedGlitter;969037 wrote:

This idea that everyone should do as they damn well please and to hell with everyone who doesn't like it is partly why this world is so sh*tty today.

You believe so?...I think it's what's holding people back...Think of how those of us with morale hearts could change the world if we all did as we pleased...I couldn't think of a better end result to humanity...In fact,..it'd never end...

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:06 am

RedGlitter;969039 wrote: God already knows what's in a person's heart and the extent of their faith. God doesn't require everyone else be privy to it. But I'm probably talking about a different God.

I have to agree...But this is argumentative to the discussion...

One could just as easily say you have no right to judge their beliefs at the same time are wrong in your assessment...

What we're after is if public prayer harms others to the point of banning it all together...

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:11 am

That's not what the OP asked, K. That's what you are asking. If i understand your first comment, if I were in a place to -ban- public prayer, I would not do it. For the simple reason there's no need to. I would wish that people would keep their displays at home but I have enough common sense and enough compassion to let them go their way.

No, I don't think that's what's holding society back at all. I know people who pray and attend church right now who would backhand me at the first offense so I don't buy that at all. And as for morals (as opposed to morale, different thing altogether) what does it say about the atheists? Is their Godlessness holding society back as they don't believe?

Edit: Everyone has the right to judge anyone else's beliefs. Anyone. But judging is where it stops.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:17 am

RedGlitter;969044 wrote: That's not what the OP asked, K. That's what you are asking. If i understand your first comment, if I were in a place to -ban- public prayer, I would not do it. For the simple reason there's no need to. I would wish that people would keep their displays at home but I have enough common sense and enough compassion to let them go their way. Fair enough...

RedGlitter;969044 wrote:

No, I don't think that's what's holding society back at all. I know people who pray and attend church right now who would backhand me at the first offense so I don't buy that at all. And as for morals (as opposed to morale, different thing altogether) what does it say about the atheists? Is their Godlessness holding society back as they don't believe? You're creating your own definition of morals...I could say I'm the leading contender for the next UK thrown but that doesn't make it true...I'm talking about good hearted people...What's left is you among others considering the majority of people to be immoral...

RedGlitter;969044 wrote:

Edit: Everyone has the right to judge anyone else's beliefs. Anyone. But judging is where it stops.

Agreed.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:23 am

RedGlitter;969044 wrote: That's not what the OP asked, K. That's what you are asking.

Sorry I'll clarify...

It's what those of us who feel banning public prayer is inappropriate and unjustifiable are after...

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:24 am

K.Snyder;969046 wrote: Fair enough...

You're creating your own definition of morals...I could say I'm the leading contender for the next UK thrown but that doesn't make it true...I'm talking about good hearted people...What's left is you among others considering the majority of people to be immoral...

I totally disagree with this notion. Thinking someone has poor manners or little class is not thinking someone immoral. Maybe we need to define that before we go further.

Agreed.
,,,,

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:25 am

K.Snyder;969048 wrote: Sorry I'll clarify...

It's what those of us who feel banning public prayer is inappropriate and unjustifiable are after...

Once again I ask you who is it here who wants to ban prayer in public?

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:26 am

RedGlitter;969049 wrote: ,,,,

Now we're cross referencing...

That statement was in response to you're believing the world would be in chaos as the result of allowing them to do as they please...I disagreed and said that it's what's holding people back as I feel the majority of people are good hearted people...

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:28 am

RedGlitter;969051 wrote: Once again I ask you who is it here who wants to ban prayer in public?

Sorry I'm speaking hypothetically...

You of all people should know I'd never make false accusations toward anyone without having sufficient evidence...

You cannot convince me for one second that not one person in the world would ban public prayer...

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:28 am

K.Snyder;969052 wrote: Now we're cross referencing...

That statement was in response to you're believing the world would be in chaos as the result of allowing them to do as they please...I disagreed and said that it's what's holding people back as I feel the majority of people are good hearted people...

I'm talking about good hearted people...What's left is you among others considering the majority of people to be immoral...

In that case, when did I say that? I see presumption but I don't understand where it's coming from.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:33 am

RedGlitter;969054 wrote: In that case, when did I say that? I see presumption but I don't understand where it's coming from.

RedGlitter;969054 wrote:

This idea that everyone should do as they damn well please and to hell with everyone who doesn't like it is partly why this world is so sh*tty today. Implies quite clearly that you feel the majority of people are immoral...Otherwise how would you expect the world to be fully "sh*tty" if you do not feel the majority of the people within the world are immoral seeing as how everyone is not aloud to do as they "damn well please"?...

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:39 am

K.Snyder;969053 wrote: Sorry I'm speaking hypothetically...

You of all people should know I'd never make false accusations toward anyone without having sufficient evidence...

You cannot convince me for one second that not one person in the world would ban public prayer...

Right but I don't see it as a big dangerous issue right at present. You cant ban public prayer even if you wanted to because thats infringing on rights. This is why I dont see it as an issue.

K.Snyder;969056 wrote: Implies quite clearly that you feel the majority of people are immoral...Otherwise how would you expect the world to be fully "sh*tty" if you do not feel the majority of the people within the world are immoral seeing as how everyone is not aloud to do as they "damn well please"?...

K-

Cold blooded killers are immoral.

Adulterers are immoral.

Thieves are immoral.

Child fkers are immoral.

Wifebeaters are immoral.

Animal abusers are immoral.

People who pray or don't pray in public are not immoral. That's absurd. What makes the world crappy are the people who mow everyone else over without regard to anything but what they feel is their own "right." That has nothing to do with morals. "Moral" is a judgement call in my opinion.

crazygal · Post by **crazygal** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:43 am

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;968637 wrote: I was just in a restaurant and the people sitting next to me began their meal holding hands and praying. While in Heathrow airport last week there were several orthodox Jews in their traditional clothing praying, swaying back and forth, and reading from a book, presumably the Torah, out loud.

I am not an overly religious person and I am definitely not a person who would display any religious activity or special garb in public, I find religion a very personal and very private experience, but obviously my views are my views and not shared by many people. I actually find overt public displays of religious beliefs or practices embarrassing.

How do you feel when the person sitting next to you starts praying or reading out load from his or her Holy book? :yh_think

I'd hate it, short and sweet but I would.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:49 am

RedGlitter;969062 wrote: Right but I don't see it as a big dangerous issue right at present. You cant ban public prayer even if you wanted to because thats infringing on rights. This is why I dont see it as an issue. Of course it's not an issue...Sorry I keep forgetting you're not wrapped up into logic like I am...I can't get enough of it...I see someones entire life story off of the simplest of logics...

RedGlitter;969062 wrote:

K-

Cold blooded killers are immoral.

Adulterers are immoral.

Thieves are immoral.

Child fkers are immoral.

Wifebeaters are immoral.

Animal abusers are immoral.

People who pray or don't pray in public are not immoral. That's absurd. What makes the world crappy are the people who mow everyone else over without regard to anything but what they feel is their own "right." That has nothing to do with morals. "Moral" is a judgement call in my opinion. I know all of that...But what we were discussing was the logic of it all...Those people do that anyway...You'd said "This idea that everyone should do as they damn well please and to hell with everyone who doesn't like it is partly why this world is so sh*tty today." implies that you feel eliminating law would make the world more "sh*tty"...I disagreed...I'd said that if there were no law this world would be a better place...Your disagreement with that response even implies further that you feel the majority of the people within the world are immoral...It doesn't matter the definition of morality in our discussion because your use of the word "sh*tty" defines it in this instance specifically...

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:54 am

Please stop insisting I use the word immoral. I don't like the religious connotations it carries. I dont even use the word in my own life.

And yes I do think if we eliminated law, we would have chaos. Not anarchy but chaos. I don't believe all people are innately goodhearted. People are opportunists and out for themselves. Ok, a good deal of them are, maybe not all. I can't believe you think prayer is going to stop that. It's like how locks only keep the honest man out, well prayer is only going to work for those who believe.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:06 am

RedGlitter;969071 wrote: Please stop insisting I use the word immoral. I don't like the religious connotations it carries. I dont even use the word in my own life. You're associating "morality" with religious overtones...That's not my problem...The definition of "moral" is --

# concerned with principles of right and wrong or conforming to standards of behavior and character based on those principles; "moral sense"; "a ...

# psychological rather than physical or tangible in effect; "a moral victory"; "moral support"

You're associating it with religion and it's inaccurate...

RedGlitter;969071 wrote:

And yes I do think if we eliminated law, we would have chaos. Not anarchy but chaos. I don't believe all people are innately goodhearted. People are opportunists and out for themselves. Ok, a good deal of them are, maybe not all. Sure there would be chaos but my entire point is that the good would negate the bad...How I know this is the fact that it's already been proven...The proof being the fact that the chaos today is not near the amount it was in history...The good has prevailed over the bad in most instances because the majority of the world are good hearted people...I know this because I have the freedom to sit here and type to you...

RedGlitter;969071 wrote:

I can't believe you think prayer is going to stop that. I'd never said I thought that it would...I'm merely emphasizing the neutrality of it...It's no different than someone giving a toast...

RedGlitter;969071 wrote:

It's like how locks only keep the honest man out,... If he were really an honest man what's he doing trying to get through the lock?...

RedGlitter;969071 wrote:

...well prayer is only going to work for those who believe.
Yes but no one's forcing you to worship anyone elses' "God"...The days of Charlemagne are over...From which I couldn't find a more wrong instance...No matter how sufficient his policies were for the better of his people...

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:14 am

When people speak of morals, they are usually borne of religious connotations, so it is your problem because you have to speak in the pejorative. You have to make me understand what you are saying. I use the word ethics in place of morals. This is where we are messing up.

On what grounds do you feel chaos wouldn't reign and that people are wonderful? Is the glass half empty or half full? I have little faith in the general populace to look after anyone but themselves because thats what I have seen the most of.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:25 am

RedGlitter;969077 wrote: When people speak of morals, they are usually borne of religious connotations, so it is your problem because you have to speak in the pejorative. I'm going by what I know "Morals" to be...The definition of "Morals" is --

# ethical motive: motivation based on ideas of right and wrong

# Morality (from the Latin moralitaser "manner, character, proper behavior") has three principal meanings.

# Modes of conduct that are taught and accepted as embodying principles of right and good.

# Ethics, the codes, values, principles, and customs of a person or society.

# Beliefs about which things are right and which are wrong. For example, a person might believe that hunting animals for their fur is always wrong ...

# a code of good conduct laid down out of the experience of the race to serve as a uniform yardstick for the conduct of individuals and groups.

# the Rump passed many restrictive 'moral' laws to regulate people's behaviour, such as closing down theatres and requiring strict ...

# Principles of right conduct.

RedGlitter;969077 wrote:

You have to make me understand what you are saying. I use the word ethics in place of morals. This is where we are messing up.Where we're messing up on "morals" is that you've associated "morals" as being primarily the derivation of religion...It's completely wrong and inaccurate...

RedGlitter;969077 wrote:

On what grounds do you feel chaos wouldn't reign and that people are wonderful? Is the glass half empty or half full? Because the majority of the world today are more free than they ever have been in the history of humanity...And I see the glass as half full...Would you not say you see the glass as half empty?...

RedGlitter;969077 wrote:

I have little faith in the general populace to look after anyone but themselves because thats what I have seen the most of. Which implies that you feel the majority of people are unethical...

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:25 am

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;968637 wrote: I was just in a restaurant and the people sitting next to me began their meal holding hands and praying. While in Heathrow airport last week there were several orthodox Jews in their traditional clothing praying, swaying back and forth, and reading from a book, presumably the Torah, out loud.

I am not an overly religious person and I am definitely not a person who would display any religious activity or special garb in public, I find religion a very personal and very private experience, but obviously my views are my views and not shared by many people. I actually find overt public displays of religious beliefs or practices embarrassing.

How do you feel when the person sitting next to you starts praying or reading out load from his or her Holy book? :yh_think
I don't care if it's a holy book or Moby Dick, reading aloud is distracting and rude. The reader should go somewhere people won't hear, if he can't read silently.

When I see a person stop to pray silently before eating (something I don't do), I take comfort that this person has strength of conviction. Sure the rare one may be doing it to make other think they are religious when they are really evil, but I doubt I've come across more than one or two.

When I see a family join hands at a restaurant, I know that the family has traditions, trust, and unity. I feel good about the future prospects of those children.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:52 am

I enjoy diversity.

I welcome public displays of religious overture and Im especially intrigued by our growing Muslim population.

Respect always.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:35 am

K.Snyder;969079 wrote: I'm going by what I know "Morals" to be...The definition of "Morals" is --

[snip]

Where we're messing up on "morals" is that you've associated "morals" as being primarily the derivation of religion...It's completely wrong and inaccurate...

I actually disagree with you here. It is my interpretation true, but a dictionary definition is not going to change the way I was taught or that I believe.

Because the majority of the world today are more free than they ever have been in the history of humanity...And I see the glass as half full...Would you not say you see the glass as half empty?...

I do see it as half empty. And I also don't know where you arrive at the conclusion that you have about the world being freer today than ever before. What do you base that on, I wonder.

Which implies that you feel the majority of people are unethical...

I believe the majority of people have unethical tendency. I know how you say you love people and it seems from the start they have your trust and regard. I don't have a special love of people unless they are people I know and my trust and regard for them must be earned. This is one way we differ and why my glass is half empty.

QUINNSCOMMENTARY · Post by **QUINNSCOMMENTARY** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:18 am

Nomad;969197 wrote: I enjoy diversity.

I welcome public displays of religious overture and Im especially intrigued by our growing Muslim population.

Respect always.

What does "intrigued" mean? Does that extend to being intrigued by 7th century Islamic Law applied to the 21st century? Does intrigued extend to second class citizenship for women in the name of religion?

QUINNSCOMMENTARY · Post by **QUINNSCOMMENTARY** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:21 am

crazygal;969065 wrote: I'd hate it, short and sweet but I would.

You would what?