Jester wrote: I do blame the extremeists for the action they take however Islam is not anything like Judiasm or Christianity.. and muhammed was a maruading filthy pig, i'd even call him a bastard, he was evil incarnate and I have no doubt was motivated by greed and hate and selfishness and to take from those what he wanted even klilling and murdering inncoent people on his climb up over the well to do and the innocent of his time. To pattern a religion after that man is to pattern a government often Adolf Hitler, and a hundred times worse, his very name personifies hate and terrible injustice and the Islamic world from him on have been nothing but takers and destroyers. Islam is a false religion and alie and a distortion of Gods name to include his charcater in the one they call allah. (lower case initial letter used on purpose).
Islam is a 'religion' (I use that term under protest) of terror and not the religion of peace as it claims.
And I realize most here wont agree with me and Im sure I'll get brought up as hate speech but I really dont give a dang, I call things as I see them and thats that.
I take what you said here seriously enough to not want to infract it... I want to debate it. Infractions are for people who are saying something just to be hurtful, you said this because, I fear, you believe it.
Gather your facts, ponyboy. I want to see links, I want to see reasoning and I aim to show you that your view of Islam is tainted and blind. We both write from the heart and I'm not going to make this about who uses words better, but I added a line to my sig just for you. You want to hold the opinion that Islam and their prophet are all these things then I can't stop that but, damned to hell if I'm going to let you state it like a fact without challenging.
I know you're busy in the thread this came from so I'll wait.
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
The founder of Islam, Muhammad, grew up in the town of Mecca. During his time at the end of the sixth century, his people went from a relatively poor lifestyle to becoming prosperous merchants. The changes that came with wealth caused him some distress. Around 610, during one of the yearly visits to a cave to fast and pray during Ramadan, Muhammad began to receive visions. It is believed that he was spoken to by the angel, Gabriel, come to communicate God's word to his chosen prophet. Muhammad considered suicide, thinking that he was being visited by jinn, but his wife tested the visions and became convinced the source was divine. The messages grew and what is known as the religion of Islam today was not fully formed when it was first presented. The people who followed Muhammad were those disillusioned by the greed that developed from capitalism settling in. They felt disoriented and missed the sense of community that had been lost to individualism.
Precis p.132, A History Of God, Karen Armstrong
The beginning, rudimentary teachings were
Its key themes include the moral responsibility of man towards his creator; the resurrection of dead, God's final judgment followed by vivid descriptions of the tortures in hell and pleasures in Paradise; use of the nature and wonders of everyday life, particularly the phenomenon of man, as signs of God to show the existence of a greater power who will take into account the greed of people and their suppression of the poor. Religious duties required of the believers at this time were few: belief in God, asking for forgiveness of sins, offering frequent prayers, assisting others particularly those in need, rejecting cheating and the love of wealth (considered to be significant in the commercial life of Mecca), being chaste and not to kill new-born girls.
source
Precis p.132, A History Of God, Karen Armstrong
The beginning, rudimentary teachings were
Its key themes include the moral responsibility of man towards his creator; the resurrection of dead, God's final judgment followed by vivid descriptions of the tortures in hell and pleasures in Paradise; use of the nature and wonders of everyday life, particularly the phenomenon of man, as signs of God to show the existence of a greater power who will take into account the greed of people and their suppression of the poor. Religious duties required of the believers at this time were few: belief in God, asking for forgiveness of sins, offering frequent prayers, assisting others particularly those in need, rejecting cheating and the love of wealth (considered to be significant in the commercial life of Mecca), being chaste and not to kill new-born girls.
source
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
There are many people killed by non-Muslims too, Jester. And just as Christians argue over interpretation, so do Muslims. No one is saying that Muslims don't kill, what we are talking about is whether or not the religion and their prophet are as you described them in the opening post.
If you are going to smear an entire religion I expect you to be able to back up your statements. Yes. Muslims have killed people, as do Christians, Pagans, Atheists and random cults. I think Buddhists are the only ones that have a pacifist reputation overall.
Reread your statement that I quoted and that is what I am waiting to discuss.
If you are going to smear an entire religion I expect you to be able to back up your statements. Yes. Muslims have killed people, as do Christians, Pagans, Atheists and random cults. I think Buddhists are the only ones that have a pacifist reputation overall.
Reread your statement that I quoted and that is what I am waiting to discuss.
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
You claim to know what the founding principles of the religion are yet offer only rhetoric. I understand you have personal experience of seeing terrible things but, by the same token, should we ask a young boy molested by a priest what he thinks of Catholicism?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Cath ... by_country
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Cath ... by_country
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
Additionally, Christianity has many passages which spark debate over interpretation, as you and Ted are slugging out in this very forum.
One can say that Christianity is a religion of murder based on
"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."
– Luke 19.27 *
One can say that Christianity is a religion of murder based on
"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."
– Luke 19.27 *
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
That site, the homepage title of which is
Islam: The Religion Of Peace (and a big stack of dead bodies)
would not pass inspection without the label "the neutrality of this article is disputed" tacked to the top of it on wikipedia.
There are a lot of parts that jump out on first reading as being typical of the human race at the time you were speaking of and other parts that I will attempt to prove to you are just, plain misleading. But I don't have enough time left tonight to do that properly.
Thank you for providing a source.
Islam: The Religion Of Peace (and a big stack of dead bodies)
would not pass inspection without the label "the neutrality of this article is disputed" tacked to the top of it on wikipedia.
There are a lot of parts that jump out on first reading as being typical of the human race at the time you were speaking of and other parts that I will attempt to prove to you are just, plain misleading. But I don't have enough time left tonight to do that properly.
Thank you for providing a source.
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
This is a topic of great interest to me. I have recently heard a lecture and personally spoken with Dr.Ghazi Farooq a Muslim professor at Malaspina University and a member of the interfaith group in Nanaimo. He stressed that Islam began on the same two tenets as Christianity, justice and compassion and that as in Christianity we have and do have our extremists.
I have in front of me my copy of the Holy Qur'an. I will begin at 9:27.
"Yet God will show mercy to whom He will. God is forgiving and merciful. Believers, know that the idolaters are unclean. Let them not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year is ended. If you fear poverty, God, if He pleases, will enrich you through His own bounty. God is all-knowing and wise.
Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe in neither God nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and His apostle have forbidden, and do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued."
I should add that Islam is no more patriarchal than is Christianity. That being said we have to observe the culture and level of development that has taken place. Muslims in the 21st cent. culture do not force the burka or hajib on their women. Those in countries like Afghanistan are living in an older culture and even though the women are now free many still follow the old traditions by choice.
An interesting comment from the Holy Qur'an 2:271 "To be charitable in public is good but to give alsm to the poor in private is better and will atone for some of your sins. God has knolwdge of all your actions." God judges motives.
I think the important phrase is "to whom the Scriptures were given'. Here they are speaking only of the Holy Qur'an. This sacred writing has much wisdom in it.
Until I locate the quote I will also say that I know the Holy Qur'an says that no Muslim is to start a fight; that they are only to retaliate if attacked. That sounds reasonable. Self defense is allowed in most places. This is an Abrahamic faith.
Let us now speak of another Abrahamic faith. In Numbers 31 the Hebrews are told they can steal the land of the Canaanites and they are to kill every man, woman and child except for the virgins which they can keep for themselves. A psalm, which I can't number at the moment openly says we should dash the brains of young children out on the rocks.
Than we have the great David who arranges for the death of Uriah because David was screwing around with Uriah's wife.
A little further along in history we have 3 crusades that were in fact simply murderous raids in which even the Jews were attacked and killed.
A little further along we have the inquisition in which people were tortured to death in the name of God.
Today we have Robertson who publicly calls for the assassination of the president of Venezuela, in the name of God.
Today we have Fred Phelps who openly protests at the funerals of Gay folks and speaks nothing but hatred.
George Bush creates a story of WMD in Iraq just so that he can invade in the guise of saving the world. Who will save us from George Bush?
With no effort I could add others but that should suffice.
All faiths have their extremists. The question is do they represent their faith in an honest way.
According to Dr. Farooq the terrorists do not honestly represent Islam. Neither in my view do Robertson et. al. honestly represent Christianity.
I just found it so will add it on. From the Holy Qur'an 2:188. "Fight for the sake of God those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. God does not love aggressors."
Shalom
Ted:-6
I have in front of me my copy of the Holy Qur'an. I will begin at 9:27.
"Yet God will show mercy to whom He will. God is forgiving and merciful. Believers, know that the idolaters are unclean. Let them not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year is ended. If you fear poverty, God, if He pleases, will enrich you through His own bounty. God is all-knowing and wise.
Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe in neither God nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and His apostle have forbidden, and do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued."
I should add that Islam is no more patriarchal than is Christianity. That being said we have to observe the culture and level of development that has taken place. Muslims in the 21st cent. culture do not force the burka or hajib on their women. Those in countries like Afghanistan are living in an older culture and even though the women are now free many still follow the old traditions by choice.
An interesting comment from the Holy Qur'an 2:271 "To be charitable in public is good but to give alsm to the poor in private is better and will atone for some of your sins. God has knolwdge of all your actions." God judges motives.
I think the important phrase is "to whom the Scriptures were given'. Here they are speaking only of the Holy Qur'an. This sacred writing has much wisdom in it.
Until I locate the quote I will also say that I know the Holy Qur'an says that no Muslim is to start a fight; that they are only to retaliate if attacked. That sounds reasonable. Self defense is allowed in most places. This is an Abrahamic faith.
Let us now speak of another Abrahamic faith. In Numbers 31 the Hebrews are told they can steal the land of the Canaanites and they are to kill every man, woman and child except for the virgins which they can keep for themselves. A psalm, which I can't number at the moment openly says we should dash the brains of young children out on the rocks.
Than we have the great David who arranges for the death of Uriah because David was screwing around with Uriah's wife.
A little further along in history we have 3 crusades that were in fact simply murderous raids in which even the Jews were attacked and killed.
A little further along we have the inquisition in which people were tortured to death in the name of God.
Today we have Robertson who publicly calls for the assassination of the president of Venezuela, in the name of God.
Today we have Fred Phelps who openly protests at the funerals of Gay folks and speaks nothing but hatred.
George Bush creates a story of WMD in Iraq just so that he can invade in the guise of saving the world. Who will save us from George Bush?
With no effort I could add others but that should suffice.
All faiths have their extremists. The question is do they represent their faith in an honest way.
According to Dr. Farooq the terrorists do not honestly represent Islam. Neither in my view do Robertson et. al. honestly represent Christianity.
I just found it so will add it on. From the Holy Qur'an 2:188. "Fight for the sake of God those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. God does not love aggressors."
Shalom
Ted:-6
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
Thank you for that, Ted.
My brother, who is a Muslim, has explained to me that though it is considered an extreme sin to turn away from the Koran, they do not judge those who haven't discovered the beauty of the Scriptures. They judge only those that have become Muslims and turned away from it. Islam is rather unique in accepting "people of the Book" as being equally respectable, meaning Christians and Jews, because they have had their own prophets and Islam is based on the same beliefs.
Any Muslim who persecutes Christians and Jews is going against the teachings of Muhammad.
Muhammad brought monotheism to the Arab world. Jester's description of "combining the 300 deities" implies that Islam is a hyped up paganistic belief system while "combining" the deities is the exact same act as any monotheistic prophet, including Christ, preached to their own communities at the time. This point, as it was with the others, met much resistance and Muhammad tried to placate the people by creating the so called Satanic Verses wherein three of the female deities were given life again. Those verses were retracted and label 'satanic' as Muhammad was then told in his visions that what he had done was wrong. People were to worship only one God. My understanding is that those verses were added by Muhammad the man and not by divine vision.
From Karen Armstrong's The History of God p.156
Muhammad has often been presented as a warlord, who imposed Islam on a reluctant world by force of arms. The reality was quite different. Muhammad was fighting for his life, was evolving a theology of the just war in the Koran with which most Christians would agree, and never forced anybody to convert to his religion. Indeed the Koran is clear that there is to be "no compulsion in religion." In the Koran war is held to be abhorrent; the only just war is a war of self defense. Sometimes it is necessary to fight in order to preserve decent values, as Christians believed it necessary to fight against Hitler.
regarding the treatment of prisoners
From Karen Armstrong's The Battle For God p.322
The Koran demands that Muslims treat their opponents humanely. It insists that it is unlawful to take prisoners, except during the fighting of a regular war (which, in itself, rules out the taking and retention of American hostages). Prisoners must not be ill-treated and should be released, either as a favor or for ransom, after hostilities have ended. If no ransom is forthcoming, the prisoner must be free to seek employment, so that he can pay it off himself... "You must feed them as you feed yourselves, and clothe them as you clothe yourselves, and if you should set them a hard task, you must help them in it yourselves."
The website you linked to is equivalent to the one from which I got the passage from the bible that indicates Christianity being a killing religion. That website claims that Jesus never existed... and offers a number of proofs.
Muhammad was not only a real person, he was human... not "the son of God". I believe Jesus was a real person, as do Muslims, but his life has been made into a perfected tale. No one can prove what Jesus did or didn't do... or we'd have tons of sites painting him out to be a monster too. For all we know Jesus might have married and had kids and never been crucified (as some people claim) but there is no solid historical record of the man or what bad things he might have done.
As a point of interest, my Muslim brother was vehemently against the film The DaVinci Code on the principle that it blasphemed against Christ, who he recognizes as a prophet.
My brother, who is a Muslim, has explained to me that though it is considered an extreme sin to turn away from the Koran, they do not judge those who haven't discovered the beauty of the Scriptures. They judge only those that have become Muslims and turned away from it. Islam is rather unique in accepting "people of the Book" as being equally respectable, meaning Christians and Jews, because they have had their own prophets and Islam is based on the same beliefs.
Any Muslim who persecutes Christians and Jews is going against the teachings of Muhammad.
Muhammad brought monotheism to the Arab world. Jester's description of "combining the 300 deities" implies that Islam is a hyped up paganistic belief system while "combining" the deities is the exact same act as any monotheistic prophet, including Christ, preached to their own communities at the time. This point, as it was with the others, met much resistance and Muhammad tried to placate the people by creating the so called Satanic Verses wherein three of the female deities were given life again. Those verses were retracted and label 'satanic' as Muhammad was then told in his visions that what he had done was wrong. People were to worship only one God. My understanding is that those verses were added by Muhammad the man and not by divine vision.
From Karen Armstrong's The History of God p.156
Muhammad has often been presented as a warlord, who imposed Islam on a reluctant world by force of arms. The reality was quite different. Muhammad was fighting for his life, was evolving a theology of the just war in the Koran with which most Christians would agree, and never forced anybody to convert to his religion. Indeed the Koran is clear that there is to be "no compulsion in religion." In the Koran war is held to be abhorrent; the only just war is a war of self defense. Sometimes it is necessary to fight in order to preserve decent values, as Christians believed it necessary to fight against Hitler.
regarding the treatment of prisoners
From Karen Armstrong's The Battle For God p.322
The Koran demands that Muslims treat their opponents humanely. It insists that it is unlawful to take prisoners, except during the fighting of a regular war (which, in itself, rules out the taking and retention of American hostages). Prisoners must not be ill-treated and should be released, either as a favor or for ransom, after hostilities have ended. If no ransom is forthcoming, the prisoner must be free to seek employment, so that he can pay it off himself... "You must feed them as you feed yourselves, and clothe them as you clothe yourselves, and if you should set them a hard task, you must help them in it yourselves."
The website you linked to is equivalent to the one from which I got the passage from the bible that indicates Christianity being a killing religion. That website claims that Jesus never existed... and offers a number of proofs.
Muhammad was not only a real person, he was human... not "the son of God". I believe Jesus was a real person, as do Muslims, but his life has been made into a perfected tale. No one can prove what Jesus did or didn't do... or we'd have tons of sites painting him out to be a monster too. For all we know Jesus might have married and had kids and never been crucified (as some people claim) but there is no solid historical record of the man or what bad things he might have done.
As a point of interest, my Muslim brother was vehemently against the film The DaVinci Code on the principle that it blasphemed against Christ, who he recognizes as a prophet.
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
koan:-6
From the Holy Qur'an 2:257 There shall be no compulsion in religion.
Shalom
Ted:-6
From the Holy Qur'an 2:257 There shall be no compulsion in religion.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
jester:-6
According to recorded history Muhammad was attacked first before he lifted a sword. In fact in the early days of Islam the Jews were allowed to share the mosque in Jerusalem. They held their services in the Mosque when the Muslims were not using it. Islam began as a religion, like Judaism, based on justice and compassion.
My point about the Canaanites should be self explanatory but the fact is it would appear that God not only encouraged but demanded genocide and war crimes. So let us not just talk about the atrocities in the Holy Qur'an. We still have planks in ours.
David was wrong and forgiven. So should we all forgive. That is what we are told by Jesus to do.
The crusades are not commanded in the Bible. Of course they are in the very permission to enter and commit genocide on the Canaanites.
Not in the name of the real God? That is what many of them truly believed as do the likes of Robertson and Phelps. They truly believe they represent God every bit as much as you would make the same claim.
You may call them an "idiot and a whacko" implying they are not "real Christians". Middle of the road Muslims will tell you the same thing about Muslim extremists. Is there some difference?
Leap with more. OK. The legend of a flood where God simply destroys every living human being with the exception of one family. One would then assume that that even included the infants and toddlers who were not of an age to make any moral judgments. Hardly just.
The metaphorical destruction of many Egyptian soldiers who were simply following orders. The metaphorical destruction of all the young children of the Egyptians. Once again those not of an age to make any moral decisions. Hardly just. It is kind of like executing innocent folks wrongly convicted.
The mythical destruction of Jericho by Joshua. Here again one can only assume that in such a city there were young and innocent children below the age of comprehension. Hardly just.
In fact the Bible is as full of murder and atrocities as are many other sacred scriptures. As Christians we ignore those or try to justify them by saying God can do whatever He wants, after all He is God. Some god that would be; anything but just. According to Matthew Fox, who has read many of the world's sacred Scriptures the book of Revelation is the most blood thirsty piece of sacred writing in the world.
As far as I can see with the whole issue of WMD Geordie is simply putting together through American imperialism the second Roman Empire. And like the Romans doing so in the name of the divine.
Shalom
Ted:-6
According to recorded history Muhammad was attacked first before he lifted a sword. In fact in the early days of Islam the Jews were allowed to share the mosque in Jerusalem. They held their services in the Mosque when the Muslims were not using it. Islam began as a religion, like Judaism, based on justice and compassion.
My point about the Canaanites should be self explanatory but the fact is it would appear that God not only encouraged but demanded genocide and war crimes. So let us not just talk about the atrocities in the Holy Qur'an. We still have planks in ours.
David was wrong and forgiven. So should we all forgive. That is what we are told by Jesus to do.
The crusades are not commanded in the Bible. Of course they are in the very permission to enter and commit genocide on the Canaanites.
Not in the name of the real God? That is what many of them truly believed as do the likes of Robertson and Phelps. They truly believe they represent God every bit as much as you would make the same claim.
You may call them an "idiot and a whacko" implying they are not "real Christians". Middle of the road Muslims will tell you the same thing about Muslim extremists. Is there some difference?
Leap with more. OK. The legend of a flood where God simply destroys every living human being with the exception of one family. One would then assume that that even included the infants and toddlers who were not of an age to make any moral judgments. Hardly just.
The metaphorical destruction of many Egyptian soldiers who were simply following orders. The metaphorical destruction of all the young children of the Egyptians. Once again those not of an age to make any moral decisions. Hardly just. It is kind of like executing innocent folks wrongly convicted.
The mythical destruction of Jericho by Joshua. Here again one can only assume that in such a city there were young and innocent children below the age of comprehension. Hardly just.
In fact the Bible is as full of murder and atrocities as are many other sacred scriptures. As Christians we ignore those or try to justify them by saying God can do whatever He wants, after all He is God. Some god that would be; anything but just. According to Matthew Fox, who has read many of the world's sacred Scriptures the book of Revelation is the most blood thirsty piece of sacred writing in the world.
As far as I can see with the whole issue of WMD Geordie is simply putting together through American imperialism the second Roman Empire. And like the Romans doing so in the name of the divine.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
Thank you for clarifying that. You know I have the utmost respect for the sincerity of your beliefs and that I know you are an honourable person. In this debate you are, indeed, on the non PC side of the discussion which is why I'm so grateful that you are giving me the opportunity to debate with you.
At the very least, we will refine our ability to defend our opinions by the end of this.
En garde!
At the very least, we will refine our ability to defend our opinions by the end of this.
En garde!
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
I can go along with koan on that one. Jester, no offense meant and none taken.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Shalom
Ted:-6
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
My post above (14) has yet to be responded to http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... stcount=14
additionally to that, from the reply given to Ted.
Historically, Muhammad and his small group of followers were driven out of Mecca and their property was stolen. The were taken in by the Jews in Medina, though the Jews began to ridicule Islam and the two developed problems in their relations.
The religion being revealed to Muhammad, by Gabriel or his own subconscious mind, followed the original prophets closer than it did to Jesus' doctrine of turning the other cheek. Jesus reversed the nature of God during his time as prophet and, as you may recall, was killed as a result of not fighting back. The religion of Christianity did not take hold until well after his death. The Muslims couldn't wait that long. According to God in many traditions it was acceptable for them to fight back.
The raiding of caravans was considered, rightly or wrongly, as compensation for their own possessions taken from them. No one was killed except one guard, which resulted in a few skirmishes leading up to the Battle of Badr. There is no record of torture or atrocity in battle.
additionally to that, from the reply given to Ted.
Historically, Muhammad and his small group of followers were driven out of Mecca and their property was stolen. The were taken in by the Jews in Medina, though the Jews began to ridicule Islam and the two developed problems in their relations.
The religion being revealed to Muhammad, by Gabriel or his own subconscious mind, followed the original prophets closer than it did to Jesus' doctrine of turning the other cheek. Jesus reversed the nature of God during his time as prophet and, as you may recall, was killed as a result of not fighting back. The religion of Christianity did not take hold until well after his death. The Muslims couldn't wait that long. According to God in many traditions it was acceptable for them to fight back.
The raiding of caravans was considered, rightly or wrongly, as compensation for their own possessions taken from them. No one was killed except one guard, which resulted in a few skirmishes leading up to the Battle of Badr. There is no record of torture or atrocity in battle.
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
Absolutely.
Hope you heal well.
I'm only going to be online for an hour or two each day over the holidays, also. So I'll likely be just as slow replying when you do get it posted.
D
Hope you heal well.
I'm only going to be online for an hour or two each day over the holidays, also. So I'll likely be just as slow replying when you do get it posted.
D
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
jester:-6
Hope that is better by Christmas. May the peace of Christ be with you and your family at this season of the year.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Hope that is better by Christmas. May the peace of Christ be with you and your family at this season of the year.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
jester:-6
Judging Islam by the way it presents itself will be like judging Christianity by the way it presents itself with some 22 000 variations.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Judging Islam by the way it presents itself will be like judging Christianity by the way it presents itself with some 22 000 variations.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
jester:-6
Let us take a look at the Bible. Numbers 31 promotes and encourages war crimes. A Psalm that says we should dash the babies brains out on a rock.
Let us look at a so called Christian nation that follows an ancient law revised by Jesus; an eye for an eye and so it executes people even if they are innocent. Those who call themselves Christians but shoot abortion doctors or protest at the funerals of gay folks or the likes of Phelps and Robertson. Christianity is so perfect.
Islam like Christianity is on a continuum that goes from extreme right to extreme left. If we take your approach than we should judge Christianity by the extremes for that is how you want to judge Islam. Is that fair? I hardly think so.
I'll give you another example of a good Christian approach. A young child dies at about 4 weeks old. The fundamentalist preacher at this child's funeral publicly declared that the child died because the parents had some unconfessed sin. Where was the church when this family was experiencing grief. That mother never got over that death and his comments went to the grave with her.
Please do not tell me they weren't true Christians. That is a cop out. Islam does not have a monopoly on extremism. Christianity is right there as well.
Now on what basis are you going to judge Islam? What is good for one is good for the other.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Let us take a look at the Bible. Numbers 31 promotes and encourages war crimes. A Psalm that says we should dash the babies brains out on a rock.
Let us look at a so called Christian nation that follows an ancient law revised by Jesus; an eye for an eye and so it executes people even if they are innocent. Those who call themselves Christians but shoot abortion doctors or protest at the funerals of gay folks or the likes of Phelps and Robertson. Christianity is so perfect.
Islam like Christianity is on a continuum that goes from extreme right to extreme left. If we take your approach than we should judge Christianity by the extremes for that is how you want to judge Islam. Is that fair? I hardly think so.
I'll give you another example of a good Christian approach. A young child dies at about 4 weeks old. The fundamentalist preacher at this child's funeral publicly declared that the child died because the parents had some unconfessed sin. Where was the church when this family was experiencing grief. That mother never got over that death and his comments went to the grave with her.
Please do not tell me they weren't true Christians. That is a cop out. Islam does not have a monopoly on extremism. Christianity is right there as well.
Now on what basis are you going to judge Islam? What is good for one is good for the other.
Shalom
Ted:-6
-
freetobeme
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:05 pm
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
There's a case in Toronto now about a Muslim father who murdered his daughter for not wearing the hijab. It is raising issues about multicult. and cultural values etc. Welcome to the new Canadian value system.
I suppose the usual suspects will say it's not usual etc. etc. but as Michael Coren writes: www.michaelcoren.com
"It's the episode of Little Mosque on the Prairie that I missed. The one where the father is so angry with his teenage daughter for not wearing the hijab that he strangles her to death. Perhaps it will be in the special features section of the DVD version, released just in time for the holiday that used to be known as Christmas, but not any longer because the word might hurt someone's feelings.
Not that we know why, or even if Muhammad Parvez killed his 16-year-old daughter Aqsa last week in Mississauga, Ont. But we do know that he has been charged with the crime and that friends told reporters there had been terrible arguments about Aqsa's refusal to wear Islamic head covering and that she wanted a different path from that of her family.
Most Canadian Muslim leaders immediately condemned what had happened but it didn't take very long for the usual suspects to explain on radio and television that the tragedy had nothing to do with the Muslim faith and that all religions contain extremism. Islam, we were told, is a religion of peace.
Which is probably just what the owner of a Christian bookstore in Gaza thought three months ago as he was murdered and his shop firebombed. Or Danny Pearl, shortly before the American journalist had his head cut off by Islamic terrorists -- who, naturally, filmed the whole thing and made sure their chants from the Koran were loud and clear.
Or the wretched gang-rape victim in Saudi Arabia sentenced to 200 lashes for daring to be in a car at the time of the crime with a man to whom she was not married or related. Or the women stoned to death for adultery. Or the Iranian men hanged because they were homosexual.
Or the women who lived and died under the Taliban. Or the Christians persecuted and killed in Pakistan, Egypt and Sudan. " cont.
more info here http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blog ... ather.aspx
I suppose the usual suspects will say it's not usual etc. etc. but as Michael Coren writes: www.michaelcoren.com
"It's the episode of Little Mosque on the Prairie that I missed. The one where the father is so angry with his teenage daughter for not wearing the hijab that he strangles her to death. Perhaps it will be in the special features section of the DVD version, released just in time for the holiday that used to be known as Christmas, but not any longer because the word might hurt someone's feelings.
Not that we know why, or even if Muhammad Parvez killed his 16-year-old daughter Aqsa last week in Mississauga, Ont. But we do know that he has been charged with the crime and that friends told reporters there had been terrible arguments about Aqsa's refusal to wear Islamic head covering and that she wanted a different path from that of her family.
Most Canadian Muslim leaders immediately condemned what had happened but it didn't take very long for the usual suspects to explain on radio and television that the tragedy had nothing to do with the Muslim faith and that all religions contain extremism. Islam, we were told, is a religion of peace.
Which is probably just what the owner of a Christian bookstore in Gaza thought three months ago as he was murdered and his shop firebombed. Or Danny Pearl, shortly before the American journalist had his head cut off by Islamic terrorists -- who, naturally, filmed the whole thing and made sure their chants from the Koran were loud and clear.
Or the wretched gang-rape victim in Saudi Arabia sentenced to 200 lashes for daring to be in a car at the time of the crime with a man to whom she was not married or related. Or the women stoned to death for adultery. Or the Iranian men hanged because they were homosexual.
Or the women who lived and died under the Taliban. Or the Christians persecuted and killed in Pakistan, Egypt and Sudan. " cont.
more info here http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blog ... ather.aspx
senior's politics and discussion
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
Aside from a human being murdered, what bothers me about instances such as the recent event in Toronto involving the man and his daughter is that Islam is blamed. Parents sometimes kill their children. It happens. This particular parent was Muslim and seems to have picked the wearing of the hijab as a point of argument. Reality check: any parent who kills their own child is insane. They can give whatever reasons they want but the reality is... they lost touch with reality. Muslim or not it happens. If a Christian did the same we don't blame Christianity. If an atheist did the same, we don't blame their lack of faith in God. So... why blame Islam?
One of the things that influences our perception is how the world is presented to us in the media. I found a very intriguing article that I can summarize when I have a bit more time available. A look at a very non-racist newspaper, The Globe And Mail. Yet on a closer glance, again we find the skewed news.
Hate Crime Reporting In The Toronto Globe And Mail
One of the things that influences our perception is how the world is presented to us in the media. I found a very intriguing article that I can summarize when I have a bit more time available. A look at a very non-racist newspaper, The Globe And Mail. Yet on a closer glance, again we find the skewed news.
Hate Crime Reporting In The Toronto Globe And Mail
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
koan:-6
Exactly.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Exactly.
Shalom
Ted:-6
-
freetobeme
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:05 pm
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
Boy, it's hard to believe that you are bending over backwards to exonerate Islam, of course it was their religion and beliefs that was behind his anger.
This guy will be treated with kid gloves lest we trample on his 'cultural rights', but anyone who thinks that all cultural traits are equally moral and valid should maybe gets a "David Pearl" type of fate that some other culture chooses to hand out, after all, all cultures and beliefs are equal are they not?
http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2007/ ... d-get.html
should people who kill on a point of honour get a lighter sentence
This guy will be treated with kid gloves lest we trample on his 'cultural rights', but anyone who thinks that all cultural traits are equally moral and valid should maybe gets a "David Pearl" type of fate that some other culture chooses to hand out, after all, all cultures and beliefs are equal are they not?
http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2007/ ... d-get.html
should people who kill on a point of honour get a lighter sentence
senior's politics and discussion
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
freetobeme:-6
I have no idea how one would begin to judge whether or not all cultures and religions are equal. Each developed in a different part of the world and all of the great faiths of the world began on the basis of two tenets; justice and compassion. It is inappropriate to blame a religion for the actions of its supposed adherents.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I have no idea how one would begin to judge whether or not all cultures and religions are equal. Each developed in a different part of the world and all of the great faiths of the world began on the basis of two tenets; justice and compassion. It is inappropriate to blame a religion for the actions of its supposed adherents.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
Perhaps we should judge Christianity on the basis of Robertson and Phelps and the reconstructionists. We could also throw in those Christians who claim to be white supremacists.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Shalom
Ted:-6
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
jester:-6
If you are going to judge all of Islam by looking at the extremists or a few isolated acts then Christianity ought to be judged on the same basis. We have so called Christian countries today that continue to execute and assassinate homosexuals simply because they are homosexuals. This is not just a few countries either. There are also cases where Christians out of passion have killed others as well for instance abortion doctors. Please don't forget the story of the child that died because her parents must have had some unconfessed sin.
It is best to look after the plank in our own eye and leave the slivers up to God.
Shalom
Ted
If you are going to judge all of Islam by looking at the extremists or a few isolated acts then Christianity ought to be judged on the same basis. We have so called Christian countries today that continue to execute and assassinate homosexuals simply because they are homosexuals. This is not just a few countries either. There are also cases where Christians out of passion have killed others as well for instance abortion doctors. Please don't forget the story of the child that died because her parents must have had some unconfessed sin.
It is best to look after the plank in our own eye and leave the slivers up to God.
Shalom
Ted
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
Once again we are blaming the religion for the misdeeds of its so called adherents. Thus Christianity is directly responsible for the death of abortion doctors and an open call for the assassination of the president of a foreign nation. It is also responsible for the protests at the funerals of gay folks. One can even go further and looking in the Bible blame Christianity for anti-antisemitism and the deaths of many. I damned near forgot the molestation of young children and the cover up.
Shalom
Ted
Shalom
Ted
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
Jester wrote: I do blame the extremeists for the action they take however Islam is not anything like Judiasm or Christianity.. and muhammed was a maruading filthy pig, i'd even call him a bastard, he was evil incarnate and I have no doubt was motivated by greed and hate and selfishness and to take from those what he wanted even klilling and murdering inncoent people on his climb up over the well to do and the innocent of his time. To pattern a religion after that man is to pattern a government often Adolf Hitler, and a hundred times worse, his very name personifies hate and terrible injustice and the Islamic world from him on have been nothing but takers and destroyers. Islam is a false religion and alie and a distortion of Gods name to include his charcater in the one they call allah. (lower case initial letter used on purpose).
Islam is a 'religion' (I use that term under protest) of terror and not the religion of peace as it claims.
And I realize most here wont agree with me and Im sure I'll get brought up as hate speech but I really dont give a dang, I call things as I see them and thats that.
Let's not lose sight of what you are supposed to be "proving" here.
Quite simply, you can't even convince another Christian what the bible says and means so how do you even attempt to convince us that you know what a foreign religion is all about?
Islam is a 'religion' (I use that term under protest) of terror and not the religion of peace as it claims.
And I realize most here wont agree with me and Im sure I'll get brought up as hate speech but I really dont give a dang, I call things as I see them and thats that.
Let's not lose sight of what you are supposed to be "proving" here.
Quite simply, you can't even convince another Christian what the bible says and means so how do you even attempt to convince us that you know what a foreign religion is all about?
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
jester
India-ten years to life for homosexual acts
Nigeria-death
Indonesia-death
Malaysia-death
Uganda-life imprisonment
Kenya-14 yrs imprisonment
Jamaica 10 yrs imprisonment at hard labour.
"Other Voices Other Worlds" Bishop Terry Brown.
There are others but that should suffice. One might argue that some of these aren't Christian Countries. However, today there is no such entity. Canada is multicultural and can hardly be called a Christian country.
It is also interesting that in your search you said that half the sites were positive and half negative towards Islam. I suspect that I could get the same results if I searched Christianity.
You are still trying to tar everyone with the same brush.
Shalom
Ted:-6
India-ten years to life for homosexual acts
Nigeria-death
Indonesia-death
Malaysia-death
Uganda-life imprisonment
Kenya-14 yrs imprisonment
Jamaica 10 yrs imprisonment at hard labour.
"Other Voices Other Worlds" Bishop Terry Brown.
There are others but that should suffice. One might argue that some of these aren't Christian Countries. However, today there is no such entity. Canada is multicultural and can hardly be called a Christian country.
It is also interesting that in your search you said that half the sites were positive and half negative towards Islam. I suspect that I could get the same results if I searched Christianity.
You are still trying to tar everyone with the same brush.
Shalom
Ted:-6
-
freetobeme
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:05 pm
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
Islam is not just a religion but also a political system, it differs in that their religion is fully tied into their laws and gov'ts, there is no separation of State and Religion. Some groups in Britain have demanded Sharia Law and some groups are demanding changes to the school systems to accommodate their belief system. The list of demands and misdeed across Europe in particular is growing, mainly because their numbers are much higher there.
Christianity has its whackos of which Fred Phelps and his crew are some, but generally Christians do not condone stoning, beheading and lashing etc. When a nutcase attacks an abortionist we condemn it and bring them to justice, that is the difference. Neither do I see Christians (or any others) strapping themselves into cars and blowing up hundreds of innocent people.
Except for the odd cultist you don't see Christians going out to murder in the name of Jesus, and if some crazy tries something, he and his actions are denounced.
Radical Islam is an elephant in the room, and no apologies for the behaviour, or attempting to paint other religions as being similar, changes today's situation and clash of cultures in the West.
Here is a clip of how muslims think about non-muslims although I would think that the less radical Muslims don't hold the same views, at least I hope not.
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1623.htm
Christianity has its whackos of which Fred Phelps and his crew are some, but generally Christians do not condone stoning, beheading and lashing etc. When a nutcase attacks an abortionist we condemn it and bring them to justice, that is the difference. Neither do I see Christians (or any others) strapping themselves into cars and blowing up hundreds of innocent people.
Except for the odd cultist you don't see Christians going out to murder in the name of Jesus, and if some crazy tries something, he and his actions are denounced.
Radical Islam is an elephant in the room, and no apologies for the behaviour, or attempting to paint other religions as being similar, changes today's situation and clash of cultures in the West.
Here is a clip of how muslims think about non-muslims although I would think that the less radical Muslims don't hold the same views, at least I hope not.
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1623.htm
senior's politics and discussion
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
freetobeme;741197 wrote: ...Neither do I see Christians (or any others) strapping themselves into cars and blowing up hundreds of innocent people.
...
Oh yeah?
Oklahoma City bombing
...
Oh yeah?
Oklahoma City bombing
-
freetobeme
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:05 pm
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
I don't know if McVeigh professed to be a Christian or did it in the name of Christianity (I don't think he did)and in fact McVeigh was an agnostic (see American Terrorist: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing (ReganBooks, 2001) by Lou Michel and Dan Herbeck)and he has paid for his crime which was not condoned, nor was it cheered on, nor did people dance in the streets when they learned of the deaths.
Christianity and other religions have their radicals but no where near to the extent that Islam does.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ if this site is factually incorrect please let me know.
Christianity and other religions have their radicals but no where near to the extent that Islam does.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ if this site is factually incorrect please let me know.
senior's politics and discussion
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
That site is factually incorrect. It was discussed earlier in this thread.
F2BM- you have read that your country is under threat from the religion of Islam and you are now cheering on the fight against a massive group of people, yet you can't seem to grasp that the Muslim countries have not only heard that they are under threat, they've seen the bombs blowing up their friends and neighbours and feel the same way. If you want to create a radical Muslim, terrorize and kill their families. That usually makes a vigilante out of the best of us.
Here you are, being a vigilante because you've read some stuff. Now think about where they are coming from. If you want to end war then stop making vigilantes.
The amount of hate stirring that is going on in the Western world is likely to be our downfall. The only major religion that does not have a violent history is Buddhism. Christianity today is full of radicals and some believe they are running the governments. We either live in fear or we try to live in peace. Buddha taught that there is no such thing as a just war. That is also what I believe.
In answer to the video question, neither my brother, sister-in-law, two nieces and 3 year old nephew, nor any of the people I met at their mosque, see non Muslims in a bad light. They were more than hospitable and no one tried to convert me or my other family members while we were there. Nor did they attempt it while I was staying at my brothers for a few months before I went to England, nor did their friends seem worried about my belief system when they came by for tea. They did, however briefly discuss some problems they were having with being harassed by cars full of trouble makers yelling obscenities at them and various other encounters that had them concerned about their safety. My brother, at times, expresses sincere concern that our souls will be lost and wishes he could ease our suffering by teaching us the Koran but he is easily dissuaded if we tell him simply that we do not feel like we are suffering.
F2BM- you have read that your country is under threat from the religion of Islam and you are now cheering on the fight against a massive group of people, yet you can't seem to grasp that the Muslim countries have not only heard that they are under threat, they've seen the bombs blowing up their friends and neighbours and feel the same way. If you want to create a radical Muslim, terrorize and kill their families. That usually makes a vigilante out of the best of us.
Here you are, being a vigilante because you've read some stuff. Now think about where they are coming from. If you want to end war then stop making vigilantes.
The amount of hate stirring that is going on in the Western world is likely to be our downfall. The only major religion that does not have a violent history is Buddhism. Christianity today is full of radicals and some believe they are running the governments. We either live in fear or we try to live in peace. Buddha taught that there is no such thing as a just war. That is also what I believe.
In answer to the video question, neither my brother, sister-in-law, two nieces and 3 year old nephew, nor any of the people I met at their mosque, see non Muslims in a bad light. They were more than hospitable and no one tried to convert me or my other family members while we were there. Nor did they attempt it while I was staying at my brothers for a few months before I went to England, nor did their friends seem worried about my belief system when they came by for tea. They did, however briefly discuss some problems they were having with being harassed by cars full of trouble makers yelling obscenities at them and various other encounters that had them concerned about their safety. My brother, at times, expresses sincere concern that our souls will be lost and wishes he could ease our suffering by teaching us the Koran but he is easily dissuaded if we tell him simply that we do not feel like we are suffering.
-
freetobeme
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:05 pm
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
I would have to read back but to my knowledge the religionofpeace site lists actual events, it is not fiction.
I only cheer on the fight against radical Islamist terrorists, those who make it clear, over and over again what their agenda is. As for being a vigilante, you are again, imputing thoughts and actions to people that are not in their minds at all, only in yours.
Christianity has no where near the amount of violent radicals that Islam has, they don't come close - but hey I guess the overwhelming amount of Christian terrorism, suicide bombers and beheadings really proves your point.
viewing Islamic fundamentalism as just another faith is to play into the hands of those who would destroy us.
However, given that Islam’s founder was a military leader who personally conducted terror attacks on caravans, led offensive battles against communities in order to steal and subjugate, who took slaves, broke truces, supervised the execution of captives, advocated the murder of Jews, and even advised his warriors on how best to rape women captured in battle, it is a wonder that there isn’t more violence than we see today.
I only cheer on the fight against radical Islamist terrorists, those who make it clear, over and over again what their agenda is. As for being a vigilante, you are again, imputing thoughts and actions to people that are not in their minds at all, only in yours.
Christianity has no where near the amount of violent radicals that Islam has, they don't come close - but hey I guess the overwhelming amount of Christian terrorism, suicide bombers and beheadings really proves your point.
viewing Islamic fundamentalism as just another faith is to play into the hands of those who would destroy us.
However, given that Islam’s founder was a military leader who personally conducted terror attacks on caravans, led offensive battles against communities in order to steal and subjugate, who took slaves, broke truces, supervised the execution of captives, advocated the murder of Jews, and even advised his warriors on how best to rape women captured in battle, it is a wonder that there isn’t more violence than we see today.
senior's politics and discussion
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
Once again I see half truths presented as whole truths.
If one were to talk with the moderate North American Muslims one would find out that their faith is indeed one of justice and peace. Having spoken to some that is the message I get.
The comments about Mohamed are incorrect. He attacked only after he had been attacked first. I will come back to this in a moment.
I think if folks are going to comment on the Holy Qur'an they should have read parts of it at least or they are commenting on something of which they have no idea.
Some of the world's top Biblical scholars, recognized by many, have read many if not all of the sacred writings of the great faiths and have commented that the book of Revelation in the Holy Bible is the most blood thirsty of all of them; the most horrendous display of revenge. Yet even the book of Revelation was John's, whomever he was, epistle against the Roman Empire and not some comment on a time in some distant future.
Now to Mohamed and the attacks. The Holy Qur'an is quite clear that Muslims must not make the first strike. Let's exam this for a moment. Why is America in Iraq? Well the exuse of WMD has been disproven. It was a story created by America. The only conclusion is oil. Why do they interfere in Afghanistan? Once again oil and a route to build a pipeline from Russia. Why are they so interested in Saudi Arabia? Oil. Why are they not in Darfur? Hell there is no oil there just milions of starving people. Why did they not invade in the genocide of Rwanda? No oil there either.
Who put good old Sadam in power and gave him chemical weapons? The USA. Who put the Taliban in power? The USA. Who kept Batista in power? The USA. Since he was a dictator of the right he was OK but Castro is a dictator of the left so he is not OK. What about Marcos or Pinochet or Musharraf?
The Muslims in the above mentioned countries feel that they have been attacked in the drive to take their oil from them so they fight back.
Bill Gates recently suggested that good old Geordie ought to consider why terrorism arose so that he might better understand what is going on. His response would appear to me more bombs and more attacks.
Jesus aim was to fight the empires of his day. He showed that Caesar was not god, or the savior etc. He showed that the kingdoms of the earth were oppressive and evil. He showed that God alone was top dog and that the only kingdom that was the way to peace was that of God. In this day and age what do we see? A new empire trying to make the rest of the world fall into line. It is a new Roman empire and precisely that which Jesus showed as corrupt and oppressive. Borg and Crossan.
Most people in this world simply want to live and let live but such does not seem to be the possibility. Part of the problem is political empire and part is capitalist empire. Unbridled capitalism is evil and oppressive. Nothing has changed in 2000+ years. Westerners have not heard the good news of the kingdom of God.
Now we have Caesar George.
I see little difference between what we are doing for oil and what we did to the First Nations. We simply moved in and took over land that they considered theirs. Empire building, nothing more and nothing less.
Shalom
Ted:-6
If one were to talk with the moderate North American Muslims one would find out that their faith is indeed one of justice and peace. Having spoken to some that is the message I get.
The comments about Mohamed are incorrect. He attacked only after he had been attacked first. I will come back to this in a moment.
I think if folks are going to comment on the Holy Qur'an they should have read parts of it at least or they are commenting on something of which they have no idea.
Some of the world's top Biblical scholars, recognized by many, have read many if not all of the sacred writings of the great faiths and have commented that the book of Revelation in the Holy Bible is the most blood thirsty of all of them; the most horrendous display of revenge. Yet even the book of Revelation was John's, whomever he was, epistle against the Roman Empire and not some comment on a time in some distant future.
Now to Mohamed and the attacks. The Holy Qur'an is quite clear that Muslims must not make the first strike. Let's exam this for a moment. Why is America in Iraq? Well the exuse of WMD has been disproven. It was a story created by America. The only conclusion is oil. Why do they interfere in Afghanistan? Once again oil and a route to build a pipeline from Russia. Why are they so interested in Saudi Arabia? Oil. Why are they not in Darfur? Hell there is no oil there just milions of starving people. Why did they not invade in the genocide of Rwanda? No oil there either.
Who put good old Sadam in power and gave him chemical weapons? The USA. Who put the Taliban in power? The USA. Who kept Batista in power? The USA. Since he was a dictator of the right he was OK but Castro is a dictator of the left so he is not OK. What about Marcos or Pinochet or Musharraf?
The Muslims in the above mentioned countries feel that they have been attacked in the drive to take their oil from them so they fight back.
Bill Gates recently suggested that good old Geordie ought to consider why terrorism arose so that he might better understand what is going on. His response would appear to me more bombs and more attacks.
Jesus aim was to fight the empires of his day. He showed that Caesar was not god, or the savior etc. He showed that the kingdoms of the earth were oppressive and evil. He showed that God alone was top dog and that the only kingdom that was the way to peace was that of God. In this day and age what do we see? A new empire trying to make the rest of the world fall into line. It is a new Roman empire and precisely that which Jesus showed as corrupt and oppressive. Borg and Crossan.
Most people in this world simply want to live and let live but such does not seem to be the possibility. Part of the problem is political empire and part is capitalist empire. Unbridled capitalism is evil and oppressive. Nothing has changed in 2000+ years. Westerners have not heard the good news of the kingdom of God.
Now we have Caesar George.
I see little difference between what we are doing for oil and what we did to the First Nations. We simply moved in and took over land that they considered theirs. Empire building, nothing more and nothing less.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
An interesting news item on the TV just now.
There are millions of Muslims on their hag to Mecca. Their biggest fear is attacks from extremists. All Muslims are terrorists???
Shalom
Ted:-6
There are millions of Muslims on their hag to Mecca. Their biggest fear is attacks from extremists. All Muslims are terrorists???
Shalom
Ted:-6