Try to keep it civil lads.
Scotland's Position in the U.K.
Scotland's Position in the U.K.
O.K., this probably won't interest the North American posters, but for the British ones its a pretty big question. Malcolm Rifkind has proposed a "Grand Commitee" of English MPs in Westminister to legislate on English matters, while Alex Sammond has claimed that he will hold a referendum on Scots independence before this Parliament ends. So whats the likely outcome of all of this? Do people think that Scotland will decide upon Indepence and leave the U.K., or will the U.K. have to provide the English people with their own parliament, or will the status quo somehow be maintained? Also what does all this constitutional wrangling mean for both Scotland and Englands relationship with each other, and within the EU? 
Try to keep it civil lads.
Try to keep it civil lads.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Scotland's Position in the U.K.
to be honest i havent got a clue
"To be foolish and to recognize that one is foolish, is better than to be foolish and imagine that one is wise."
Scotland's Position in the U.K.
el guapo;713812 wrote: to be honest i havent got a clue
Thats a fair comment.
Thats a fair comment.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Scotland's Position in the U.K.
Speaking as a scot it has often felt like westminster was an English parliament. Even so most scots were not too bothered about devolution but things like the poll tax which were imposed on us first were almost the last straw in a series of events. Maggie was detested up here. During the lead up to the devolution vote she came up here to campaign in support of the union. One of the newpapers had her pictuire on the front page with the headline "If you've forgotten why you should vote yes here she is"
Having said that it is ludicrous that England should have policies foisted on it (foundation hospitals for instance) because of the votes of Scottish MP's when those very same policies were rejected up here thanks to devolution and because labour msp's understood how deeply unpopular they would have been. We have a seperate education system that english MP's can't vote on so why should scots vote on English education policy.
I don't know if most scots would want independence at this stage. At the moment the SNP are used as a club to hit labour with. On the other hand if the SNP do a good job running the place they will gain support. Without scots labour MP's En gland would elect conservative governments more than they would labour. Take out the scots MP's and labour doesn't have a majority so I can see why the tories are keen on the idea. It terrifies labour as does the falling away of scots support for them. I think you are looking at the end of the Labour party at least in the shiort term just as maggie destroyed the tory party TB has done the same for labour IMO.
Pur politicians are a depressing bunch of mediocrities.
Having said that it is ludicrous that England should have policies foisted on it (foundation hospitals for instance) because of the votes of Scottish MP's when those very same policies were rejected up here thanks to devolution and because labour msp's understood how deeply unpopular they would have been. We have a seperate education system that english MP's can't vote on so why should scots vote on English education policy.
I don't know if most scots would want independence at this stage. At the moment the SNP are used as a club to hit labour with. On the other hand if the SNP do a good job running the place they will gain support. Without scots labour MP's En gland would elect conservative governments more than they would labour. Take out the scots MP's and labour doesn't have a majority so I can see why the tories are keen on the idea. It terrifies labour as does the falling away of scots support for them. I think you are looking at the end of the Labour party at least in the shiort term just as maggie destroyed the tory party TB has done the same for labour IMO.
Pur politicians are a depressing bunch of mediocrities.
Scotland's Position in the U.K.
As a Yank, I would be interested in what both English & Scots would view as the Pros and Cons of Independence for Scotland.
Scotland's Position in the U.K.
As a Scot who has an unshakable belief that the break-up of the UK would be beneficial to all parties (Scotland, England, Wales and N. Ireland) I can only say bring it on.
Here are a few recent articles by Unionist journalists:-
http://www.sundayherald.com/oped/opinio ... 14.0.0.php
http://comment.independent.co.uk/commen ... 101923.ece
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politi ... 101924.ece
Here are a few recent articles by Unionist journalists:-
http://www.sundayherald.com/oped/opinio ... 14.0.0.php
http://comment.independent.co.uk/commen ... 101923.ece
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politi ... 101924.ece
An ye harm none, do what ye will....
-
freetobeme
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:05 pm
Scotland's Position in the U.K.
Well, I don't really understand the whole thing, but I don't see how breaking up such a small country could possibly be beneficial. I suppose it's similar to Quebec wanting to separate from Canada - or is it?
Thanks for the links, I'll peruse them at leisure.
http://www.trafficdigger.com/user/gardenia.html
Thanks for the links, I'll peruse them at leisure.
http://www.trafficdigger.com/user/gardenia.html
senior's politics and discussion
Scotland's Position in the U.K.
it seems only right and proper that English mp's should vote on English matters, ditto the Scottish and the Welsh. Simplistic and probably unfeasible.
Politicians and babies should be changed regularly for the same reasons
Politicians and babies should be changed regularly for the same reasons
Scotland's Position in the U.K.
I cannot see the majority of Scots going for full independence but then I'm English. If the SNP have a fantastic term then it could possibly happen but, as I say, I find it unlikely.
Whilst Scotland is part of the Union they will still be part of Westminster and it would be one of the biggest shakeups in a hundred years to segregate the vote on national lines - again, it could happen but it would take a big trigger to force it.
So I vote for the status quo over the life of the next two parliaments.
Whilst Scotland is part of the Union they will still be part of Westminster and it would be one of the biggest shakeups in a hundred years to segregate the vote on national lines - again, it could happen but it would take a big trigger to force it.
So I vote for the status quo over the life of the next two parliaments.
Scotland's Position in the U.K.
Yes i would vote for independance, further to that i'd happily pay more income tax in an independant Scotland.
For those that doubt Scotland could go it alone, ask yourself this - why is England so reluctant to break up the union :sneaky:
For those that doubt Scotland could go it alone, ask yourself this - why is England so reluctant to break up the union :sneaky:
Scotland's Position in the U.K.
buttercup;713982 wrote: Yes i would vote for independance, further to that i'd happily pay more income tax in an independant Scotland.
For those that doubt Scotland could go it alone, ask yourself this - why is England so reluctant to break up the union :sneaky:
Because the union of Scotland and England is the UK? Wales and Northern Ireland are nowhere near as important as Soctland to the English? No?
For those that doubt Scotland could go it alone, ask yourself this - why is England so reluctant to break up the union :sneaky:
Because the union of Scotland and England is the UK? Wales and Northern Ireland are nowhere near as important as Soctland to the English? No?
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Scotland's Position in the U.K.
Galbally;713997 wrote: Because the union of Scotland and England is the UK? Wales and Northern Ireland are nowhere near as important as Soctland to the English? No?
Because of the oil. Most of it is in Scottish waters. Also they got conquered and the english had to bribe us in to submission but then our politicians have always been a bunch of self serving crooks. Course rabbie burns said it better than I can
http://www.incallander.co.uk/scottishsongs/rogues.htm
On the other hand for a long time most english folk seemed unaware the UK was a union in the first place. Used to be a red rag to a bull seeing the english flying the union jack instead of the st georges cross at football internationals.
posted by freetobeme
Well, I don't really understand the whole thing, but I don't see how breaking up such a small country could possibly be beneficial. I suppose it's similar to Quebec wanting to separate from Canada - or is it?
I don't know enough about canada to make a comparison. But it's as much a question of local against centralised government. You will find similar sentiment in the north of england against the south east of england.
Because of the oil. Most of it is in Scottish waters. Also they got conquered and the english had to bribe us in to submission but then our politicians have always been a bunch of self serving crooks. Course rabbie burns said it better than I can
http://www.incallander.co.uk/scottishsongs/rogues.htm
On the other hand for a long time most english folk seemed unaware the UK was a union in the first place. Used to be a red rag to a bull seeing the english flying the union jack instead of the st georges cross at football internationals.
posted by freetobeme
Well, I don't really understand the whole thing, but I don't see how breaking up such a small country could possibly be beneficial. I suppose it's similar to Quebec wanting to separate from Canada - or is it?
I don't know enough about canada to make a comparison. But it's as much a question of local against centralised government. You will find similar sentiment in the north of england against the south east of england.
Scotland's Position in the U.K.
gmc;714001 wrote: Because of the oil. Most of it is in Scottish waters. Also they got conquered and the english had to bribe us in to submission but then our politicians have always been a bunch of self serving crooks. Course rabbie burns said it better than I can
http://www.incallander.co.uk/scottishsongs/rogues.htm
On the other hand for a long time most english folk seemed unaware the UK was a union in the first place. Used to be a red rag to a bull seeing the english flying the union jack instead of the st georges cross at football internationals.
posted by freetobeme
I don't know enough about canada to make a comparison. But it's as much a question of local against centralised government. You will find similar sentiment in the north of england against the south east of england.
To be fair GMC, I think its about more than the oil, Scotland and England have been unified since 1707, the monarchy is based on that union, and Scotland contributed enourmously to the British Empire, and benefitted enourmously from it as well it has to be said, and as we all know, the empire might be gone, but its ghost has a big influence even now.
http://www.incallander.co.uk/scottishsongs/rogues.htm
On the other hand for a long time most english folk seemed unaware the UK was a union in the first place. Used to be a red rag to a bull seeing the english flying the union jack instead of the st georges cross at football internationals.
posted by freetobeme
I don't know enough about canada to make a comparison. But it's as much a question of local against centralised government. You will find similar sentiment in the north of england against the south east of england.
To be fair GMC, I think its about more than the oil, Scotland and England have been unified since 1707, the monarchy is based on that union, and Scotland contributed enourmously to the British Empire, and benefitted enourmously from it as well it has to be said, and as we all know, the empire might be gone, but its ghost has a big influence even now.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Scotland's Position in the U.K.
Galbally;714046 wrote: To be fair GMC, I think its about more than the oil, Scotland and England have been unified since 1707, the monarchy is based on that union, and Scotland contributed enourmously to the British Empire, and benefitted enourmously from it as well it has to be said, and as we all know, the empire might be gone, but its ghost has a big influence even now.
True it is. But it is a major factor none the less. We did benefit enormously but then so did England. It's a bit of a waste of time arguing about the past and I can put a case for either side. In recent times though we have benefited enormously from eu membership (regional development fund) -as did eire come to that-in a way that would never have been forthcoming from westminster-at the same time economic policies pursued to suit economic conditions in the south east have been damaging to both scotland and the north of england.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/the ... 197995.stm
The row erupted on Wednesday over comments Mr George made on Tuesday at a lunch for regional newspaper executives in London that unemployment in the north was a price worth paying to help the south.
Thee has been a kind of slow build up of resentment and discontent that a labour govt did nothing to dispel. As a nation we tend to be a bit more socialist in attitude than the english and the sight of scots labour MP's and MSP's toeing a party line set in Westminster and not responding to their constituents has alienated a lot of voters. How much support for the SNP is due to a desire to get at labour rather than real support for independence is a moot point. At the moment I think that is mostly the case-on the other hand if the SNP do a good job their case gets stronger.
As to the economic case, without taking in to account the revenue from oil scotlands contribution to the exchequer is about 8% of the total, our population is about 8.5% of the total UK population.
http://www.scottishexecutive.gov.uk/Pub ... 11084016/6
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/press/ne ... oprep.html
With the oil revenues arguably we are subsidising england. Then it starts getting sily when you start tyinng to decide how many of the scots are actually english expats and how many english are scots etc etc. Take your pick as to who needs who the most. Malcolm Rifkind does have a valid point-also he is a scot himself and an MP for a scottish constituency until he got booted out along with the rest of the tories. The tories have nothing to lose if we go for independence Labour does. The next election could see Alastair Darling and Gordon Brown without seats and labour without a leader if they are not careful. Who will take over from Gordon brown?
True it is. But it is a major factor none the less. We did benefit enormously but then so did England. It's a bit of a waste of time arguing about the past and I can put a case for either side. In recent times though we have benefited enormously from eu membership (regional development fund) -as did eire come to that-in a way that would never have been forthcoming from westminster-at the same time economic policies pursued to suit economic conditions in the south east have been damaging to both scotland and the north of england.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/the ... 197995.stm
The row erupted on Wednesday over comments Mr George made on Tuesday at a lunch for regional newspaper executives in London that unemployment in the north was a price worth paying to help the south.
Thee has been a kind of slow build up of resentment and discontent that a labour govt did nothing to dispel. As a nation we tend to be a bit more socialist in attitude than the english and the sight of scots labour MP's and MSP's toeing a party line set in Westminster and not responding to their constituents has alienated a lot of voters. How much support for the SNP is due to a desire to get at labour rather than real support for independence is a moot point. At the moment I think that is mostly the case-on the other hand if the SNP do a good job their case gets stronger.
As to the economic case, without taking in to account the revenue from oil scotlands contribution to the exchequer is about 8% of the total, our population is about 8.5% of the total UK population.
http://www.scottishexecutive.gov.uk/Pub ... 11084016/6
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/press/ne ... oprep.html
With the oil revenues arguably we are subsidising england. Then it starts getting sily when you start tyinng to decide how many of the scots are actually english expats and how many english are scots etc etc. Take your pick as to who needs who the most. Malcolm Rifkind does have a valid point-also he is a scot himself and an MP for a scottish constituency until he got booted out along with the rest of the tories. The tories have nothing to lose if we go for independence Labour does. The next election could see Alastair Darling and Gordon Brown without seats and labour without a leader if they are not careful. Who will take over from Gordon brown?
Scotland's Position in the U.K.
Yes GMC, I agree about the European Union, I can tell you that the Republic's membership of the EU, has been probably the single most beneficial thing for this country over the past 30 years. Now I understand that Britons have a somewhat different feeling about Europe and thats fair enough, but for us as a small country trying to cope with our past and our economy the EU has been a huge influence in our maturing and thats what makes me sad about the very anti- european feeling that comes out of Britain sometimes, but maybe over time that will change.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Scotland's Position in the U.K.
buttercup;713982 wrote: Yes i would vote for independance, further to that i'd happily pay more income tax in an independant Scotland.
For those that doubt Scotland could go it alone, ask yourself this - why is England so reluctant to break up the union :sneaky:
Because the current English government is dependant on the seats it gains in Scotland and Wales (given that its nearest rivals get none) to bolster its powerbase.
Without its Scotish and Welsh MPs the Labour Party would either loose power completely or would be hamstrung to such na extent that they might as well have.
For those that doubt Scotland could go it alone, ask yourself this - why is England so reluctant to break up the union :sneaky:
Because the current English government is dependant on the seats it gains in Scotland and Wales (given that its nearest rivals get none) to bolster its powerbase.
Without its Scotish and Welsh MPs the Labour Party would either loose power completely or would be hamstrung to such na extent that they might as well have.
Scotland's Position in the U.K.
posted by bryn mawr
Without its Scotish and Welsh MPs the Labour Party would either loose power completely or would be hamstrung to such na extent that they might as well have.
That is what is about to happen I think.
OK It may not be politically correct to make ethnic jokes and this may be off topic but this is funny
Without its Scotish and Welsh MPs the Labour Party would either loose power completely or would be hamstrung to such na extent that they might as well have.
That is what is about to happen I think.
OK It may not be politically correct to make ethnic jokes and this may be off topic but this is funny