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nvalleyvee
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Post by nvalleyvee »

I had always supported the war in Iraq....

I really think now we should withdraw and let the locals just kill each other off.
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Post by guppy »

nv-what brought the change of heart here? :-3
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Post by tr0lle »

nvalleyvee;541229 wrote: I had always supported the war in Iraq....

I really think now we should withdraw and let the locals just kill each other off.


Become an hero would be the simplest solution
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Post by nvalleyvee »

guppy;541233 wrote: nv-what brought the change of heart here? :-3


The change of heart came from a real feeling we are doing no good. We captured and killed Sadam. It has done nothing to quell the killing of countryman-vs-countryman.........These people just want to kill one another and I do not want our troops involved in it anymore.
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Post by nvalleyvee »

These people just want to KILL EACH OTHER..........I don't understand ...........so I want our troops OUT.
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Post by nvalleyvee »

Freaking supposed it was 200 years ago and in this country....how would you feel about religion and slavery. You might have been burned at the stake for free religious thinking ............as a Witch.
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Post by Carl44 »

nvalleyvee;544810 wrote: Freaking supposed it was 200 years ago and in this country....how would you feel about religion and slavery. You might have been burned at the stake for free religious thinking ............as a Witch.


why cant we build a big wall round the whole region , throw in some guns call the place ...irate ... go get the oil when the shooting stops :confused:
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Post by Galbally »

Yes, this is all very understandable to be getting outraged at the violence, but this civil war is a direct result of the Invasion of Iraq in 2003 that America and Britain jumped into against all advice from their own people, their military, and other nations (including most famously those "cheese eating surrender monkeys" the French (remember getting all stroppy about that?), in this case they were right (for once), period.

So its a bit late in the day to be getting all outraged that its gone so predictably wrong, its absolutely the fault of the people who decided to invade, not their electorates, and not their military, and they should be ashamed of themselves, because they have damaged their own country's interests, cost the lives of their brave soldiers in a doomed adventure, done nothing to stop the Islamic terrorists (indeed they have aided their cause), and also they have been responsible for unleashing another cycle of murder and violence upon the long-suffering people who happen to live in Iraq and have no choice in the matter in their current national sport of being blown to bits en masse. So far only Donald Rumsfeld has had the decency to at least quit his job, no one else has in the U.K. or the U.S. has shown the slightest remorse or regret at their folly and we are all paying the price for their "just" war.

For shame. :mad:
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Post by koan »

Good rant, Dr G.

I agree on every point.

additionally

One of the sentiments I've heard expressed which I find outrageously dim is this concept that they can't leave because they they would be admitting they lost/were wrong. On a personal level people are encouraged to admit when they made mistakes and try to graciously retract with reparations if necessary.

The only good reason I can see for a slow withdrawal is one I've not heard mentioned: Bin Laden rallied his troops against the US on this rage that they just left when the war was over and the country in pieces. That was the fuel for his fire. It's the only good reason I can imagine for the invading troops to not put their panties in their pockets and run.
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Post by Galbally »

Yes, I feel a bit ranty today, well, its not an option to just leave right now, that is true, but its also not really an option to stay for any extended period of time, after all the coalition has been there for 4 years (same length as the Pacific part of WWII, and it has steadly deteriorated in that time), so I don't know myself what the answer is at this stage, all courses are now going to be very costly in terms of lives, treasure, and an increasingly dangerous middle east, so stupid, and so avoidable, Tony Blair should be truly ashamed of himself, what real interest of Britain has been served here, other than to brown-nose up to a president who is now a liability in his own country politically and will be gone in 12 months? I am disgusted with him (Blair) particularly. :mad:
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Post by koan »

If they changed their mission from seek and destroy to an international aid mission then I think the general attitude about it would change.
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Post by Galbally »

koan;544902 wrote: If they changed their mission from seek and destroy to an international aid mission then I think the general attitude about it would change.


Yes, maybe, but at the moment, any attempt at distributing aid in Iraq on a large scale would just present suicide bombers with a beautifully vunerable set of targets to destroy, Iraq is now a full-on war-zone, there is no law outside the green zone of Bagdad and the military areas, the countryside is ruled by local militias and death squads and the country overall is probably the most dangerous place on earth, you are not even safe in an apache helicopter over there at the moment, so mounting a food-aid or medical aid program is not feasible, though no doubt the ordinary people there could do with a break from the current madness, the truth is they are not going to get one, and the terror and horror in Iraq is going to get much worse before it gets any better.

Oh, and of course just to make it even more interesting, we are now facing an extremely serious situation with Iran that may result in war as well, (involving the Israelis, whoopeee!), which need absolute clear-heads and cool nerves to deal with, something in very short supply anywhere at present. What a clever bunch of people we have dictating Western foreign policy at present. :mad:
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Galbally;544890 wrote: Yes, this is all very understandable to be getting outraged at the violence, but this civil war is a direct result of the Invasion of Iraq in 2003 that America and Britain jumped into against all advice from their own people, their military, and other nations (including most famously those "cheese eating surrender monkeys" the French (remember getting all stroppy about that?), in this case they were right (for once), period.

So its a bit late in the day to be getting all outraged that its gone so predictably wrong, its absolutely the fault of the people who decided to invade, not their electorates, and not their military, and they should be ashamed of themselves, because they have damaged their own country's interests, cost the lives of their brave soldiers in a doomed adventure, done nothing to stop the Islamic terrorists (indeed they have aided their cause), and also they have been responsible for unleashing another cycle of murder and violence upon the long-suffering people who happen to live in Iraq and have no choice in the matter in their current national sport of being blown to bits en masse. So far only Donald Rumsfeld has had the decency to at least quit his job, no one else has in the U.K. or the U.S. has shown the slightest remorse or regret at their folly and we are all paying the price for their "just" war.

For shame. :mad:


Why is it that all the best posts come out when I'm away?

Thank you Dr G for the best summing up I've seen for a long time.
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Post by TruthBringer »

We've got them on the "run" you said? lol.

Yeah we've got them on the run alright. They run to Iran and Syria and gather more weapons and then return.

We don't have em on the run Brother. They have US sandwiched in between all their countries. We are in the middle of a snake pit.

Just my two sense. But don't worry, you can keep the change. =)
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Post by BTS »

koan;544902 wrote: If they changed their mission from seek and destroy to an international aid mission then I think the general attitude about it would change.




Yippers......... Seek and DESTROY...... Remove the handcuffs......



Also where in the world would this war be NOW if the pinkos in the UN had the pelotas to suport the war and ALL the resolution they drafted against the TYRANT, SAA-DAM IN-SANE????????

Where would it be?



OVER I would bet......

WASS you think?



I can pull up the resolutions to put in front of you but I won't

I ask a SIMPLE question



"If the UN would have enforced their resolutions....where would the war be NOW?"
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Far Rider;550264 wrote:

Fools!

We arent the laughing stock of the world for nothing, we've earned it, becasue we havnt got the gonads to finish what we start, and it was right to start it, it was right to free those common Iraqi's. It's right to be there.




I posted this in another thread and it went plop but I really would like an answer - especially given the above!

In the 1990's Russia installed a puppet government in Afghanistan after invading the country and ousting the legal national government.

Not only did the USA refuse to recognise the new government, they actively supported the "terrorist insurgents" who were fighting against the puppet government and the Russian troops who were supporting them.

These "terrorist insurgents" were not only Afghan supporters of the previous government, there were also fighters from the rest of the Muslim world, including Al Quada.

Could you point out where the current situation in Iraq now differs from the situation in Afghanistan then - apart from which side of the fence you are standing?

Any takers?
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Post by Galbally »

Firstly, I am no pacifist, and I am not an apologist for Islamic extremism, I am a western person, and my interest is in our countries. We are in a struggle with Islamic extremists, and we are not doing very well, precisely because we are not taking it seriously and engaging on this pathetic military adventures, and geopolitical games, at exactly the time we cannot afford to do so. What is driving me mad is that we have gotten into this position so needlessly.

I was not against the war in Afghanistan at all, I saw it as an appropriate response to September 11th and the threat of Al Queda, and I am not against taking on Al Queda and other Islamic fundamentalist groups wherever they may be, by all means necessary, military, intelligence, intellectually, economically, I understand what their world-view is, and I despise it. Thats not the point, we all despise it, the point is that Iraq (and I repeat this once more) had NOTHING to do with any of this, Saddam was a Baathist, a secular socialist, Iraq was the enemy of the true fundamentalists states Iran (shiite), and Saudi Arabia (sunni). In truth he could have been rehabilitated (why not, who cares?) and used as a pawn against these people, as he was in the 1980s, cynical perhaps, but cheaper.

The point is that all Arabs or Muslims are not in Al Queda because they are Arabs and by picking a convienient target of opportunity such as Iraq in the Persian gulf, you are not going to also get the people you need to get by default. So what was the point of creating this situation (where Iraq is now very much part of this fundamentalist problem and may become another fundamentalist theocracy once U.S. and British military power leaves (which it will), this has been a completely counter-productive war by any sober assessment. In fact, Iraq doesn't even produce as much oil as it used to, so even that reasons gone.

What a ridiculous, costly, disasterous, eminently dangerous policy.

And now the policy is, "well, we made our beds and we have to lie in them"???? What??? U.S. policy is helping to bring on the type of middle east we all fear, not stop it, thats whats so crazy, you think this is an argument for "cut and run" it is not, I agree that the U.S. and Britain have a responsibility now to Iraq, a big one, but the truth is, that economically and militarily the leaders now seem unwilling to pay the costs of all this, neither do the populations as the people don't understand whats happening, and were sold this war on false pretences. Also like Bryn said, the locals are not that happy with the occupying powers, and thats only going to increase as a problem, so what are you going to do about it? The military have been there for 4 years, and the situation has deteriorated, not improved, so whats the solution, more of the same? I'm damned if I know at this stage, it seems to me that all courses will now run to ill, and there is very little that will come out of this that will be in our interests, never mind Iraqi's.

This was all obvious in 2003, but again people in power were too arrogant and full of hubris to listen, and they managed to fool a lot of people with lies, well its too late now, its been done, and we are all going to pay the price at some stage, well done.
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Post by Galbally »

almostfamous;550612 wrote: the only threat in that is this goofball behind the wheel :o :wah:


up late again eh?
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



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Galbally
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Post by Galbally »

Diuretic;550636 wrote: True enough. Back then when I visited I felt a sense of freedom. I always admired Americans for their value of the individual. A person could walk down the street looking totally bizarre and all they would get was a glance and maybe a giggle, but never condemnation. I was in the Castro in SF (I know) and a bloke was walking along with this cat on a lead and everyone was good with it. I've been back twice since Bush took over and it's not the same. Okay, it's not my place to say it but America is not the place it was. I liked it as it was. Sorry I don't mean to pronounce on domestic things. I don't live there so it's redundant but I used to love visiting.


To be fair Diruetic its not just George Bushes fault, and I think that the attacks of September 11th have really affected the physche of the American people, regardless of who is president, its understandable, but one of the great strengths of America has always been its ability to change and adapt, and it will do so again, and for the better, thats my opinion, as I am an optimist.
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Galbally
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Post by Galbally »

To be honest we are having enough problems in Europe with all this stuff as well, you may have noticed this, so we are not in a position to lecture the Americans about what is happening in their society, but obviously things are strained over there as well, but as always, look to those who make the decisions not those who have to live with them.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



Le Rochefoucauld.



"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."



My dad 1986.
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Galbally
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Post by Galbally »

Diuretic;550671 wrote: Very good points. And that got me thinking. If the struggle can be re-defined - because there is very definitely a threat to the West - to be somewhat more inclusive then we may all be better off. The power of the West (includng even our little outpost) can do so much that's good but we all have to understand that bombing and invading are last resorts, not first efforts. We need to more than drop bombs to win this one. Our current so-called "leaders" have failed us all.


Yes, I agree, and many people have also thought about this in more positions of influence and power than we are. Ultimately the people behind these ideologies will be beaten by the poverty of their own ideas for their own people, but from our perspective we can't afford to let them win, at any stage, the argument in their own countries, no more than our own, so we have to offer other people in the world something more than just our technology, weaponry, and consumer products. The strength of the western world comes from its ideas more than anything else, and we will stand or fall by them, but we have to be prepared to defend them, while making them inclusive for those who may wish to peacefully co-exist with us. This is particularly the case for us Europeans as we share the same region of the world with the Arabs and the Muslims and we have to (as usual) find a way of at least accommodating each other, if not actually loving or particularly trusting one another, as we don't have the luxury of distances and oceans to protect us.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



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Post by Sweet Tooth »

Ok, this is what pisses me off! Most of you people who complain about us being over there don't even know what we are doing over there in the first place!! You think we are just running around shooting everyone and kicking people out of their houses and raising kane for the hell of it? Ignorance! It may be hard to justify so many of our troops dead, but for a reason, I'm sure you don't even know!!!!
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Post by Galbally »

Sweet Tooth;550863 wrote: Ok, this is what pisses me off! Most of you people who complain about us being over there don't even know what we are doing over there in the first place!! You think we are just running around shooting everyone and kicking people out of their houses and raising kane for the hell of it? Ignorance! It may be hard to justify so many of our troops dead, but for a reason, I'm sure you don't even know!!!!


Sweet tooth, I know you have people there, I have no intention of offending you, but we have to be allowed to debate this topic as actually, I also know some people who are in Basra right now fighting in this war, its not just a U.S. war, though from the way that many people talk in the U.S. it seems you have forgotten that hundreds of young British men are also dead fighting in your war, how sad. In short, your people are not the only people over there, and no I am not fighting there myself, but does that mean I am not allowed to have an honest opinion without being patronized about it?

This appeal to U.S. patriotism lark every time someone asks a awkward question or disagrees with your government's policy is what has us in the pickle we are in. This is not about criticizing soldiers, or generals, they are doing their job as always, and putting themselves in harms way to do it. If you read what I said, its the politicians who cynically did this, knowing quite clearly that people would die, and that things would get ugly, thats fine when the cause is real, in Iraq's case, you tell me, should it have have been started, and for what cause precisely? I for one don't think so, and I don't think your president should have ordered your loved ones to go and fight there, thats why it pisses me off as well. It was the wrong country. The bombers were from Saudi Arabia, Al Queda were financed with Saudi money, Osama Bin Laden is a Saudi, his dad owns half the country's construction business, the training bases were in Afghanistan, the money for them came from Pakistan, all these countries are the enemies of Iraq, so why was Iraq attacked? Why were these countries not bombed, and invaded (except afganistan)? You tell me, cause I don't know.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



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"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."



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Sweet Tooth
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Post by Sweet Tooth »

Gal, I know we are not the only country over there, and you are allowed to your own opinion! I am sorry if you felt patronized over my comment! It just really burns me that everyone is so quick to judge what our job is over there when no one really knows! I'm sorry to upset you!
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Post by Galbally »

Sweet Tooth;550888 wrote: Gal, I know we are not the only country over there, and you are allowed to your own opinion! I am sorry if you felt patronized over my comment! It just really burns me that everyone is so quick to judge what our job is over there when no one really knows! I'm sorry to upset you!


Its OK, these topics are always emotive, as lets face it, its life and death stuff for all the people currently in Iraq, so its natural for us to get emotional either way. Its just important to realize that being against the reasons for the war, and its prosecution, doesn't mean I am against trying to make the best of a bad situation, or that I disrespect the sacrifice that young men and women from the U.S. and Britain are being asked to make, and they willingly do so, I know, we are talking about the politics, and its never pleasant to have to quantify and debate these things. I hope you are not offended either.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



Le Rochefoucauld.



"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."



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Post by Sweet Tooth »

Galbally;550889 wrote: Its OK, these topics are always emotive, as lets face it, its life and death stuff for all the people currently in Iraq, so its natural for us to get emotional either way. Its just important to realize that being against the reasons for the war, and its prosecution, doesn't mean I am against trying to make the best of a bad situation, or that I disrespect the sacrifice that young men and women from the U.S. and Britain are being asked to make, and they willingly do so, I know, we are talking about the politics, and its never pleasant to have to quantify and debate these things. I hope you are not offended either.


I'm not offended, its just I wish people could see why my husband risked his life for this, and why so many other men and women do too! Bush was making a speech today on the radio when I was coming into work saying without our help in afg., NATO would never be over there. We are helping these countries to help themselves. Of course its going to be a gamble, but wouldn't it be worth it if their own countries could counter attack the terrorist before they hit all around the world?
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Post by Galbally »

Sweet Tooth;550898 wrote: I'm not offended, its just I wish people could see why my husband risked his life for this, and why so many other men and women do too! Bush was making a speech today on the radio when I was coming into work saying without our help in afg., NATO would never be over there. We are helping these countries to help themselves. Of course its going to be a gamble, but wouldn't it be worth it if their own countries could counter attack the terrorist before they hit all around the world?


Again, I agreed with the war in Afghanistan, and I think more should have been done there by the U.S., and other NATO countries to secure the country once it was taken from the Taliban, but resources were diverted to other, more media-friendly targets than the back villages of Afghanistan. That was also a big mistake.

Now that war is back on, and NATO are having problems fighting it. And quite frankly if the U.S. administration had not driven a coach and horses through international law and the UN, and also been less haughty and arrogant to European NATO countries when they refused to get invovled in Iraq because they thought it was an unjust war, then the same countries that are now being asked to commit their troops to end the first conflict, would be a little less reluctant to provide these troops. Know what I mean?

I am sure they will, as its in all of our interests here in the west to help each other really, but your president and his war have actually damaged the NATO alliance itself, (whether you realize this over there or not), by his administrations high handedness, and arrogance, and at a time like this when we all need to be singing off the same sheet, that is folly.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



Le Rochefoucauld.



"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."



My dad 1986.
tr0lle
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Post by tr0lle »

Pinky;544664 wrote: Who are the heroes? The ones that die needlessly for the sake of so called freedom? The ones that gve up their lives for fundamentals that have no bearing on the lives imposed upon?

When did we as a people become so self riteous?


murk loar, not here though
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Post by nvalleyvee »

Far Rider;550264 wrote: I'm not gettiing into another one of these arguements its needless.

Im just gonna lay out my personal opinion right here and leave it go.

We dont need to leave Iraq, we should stay and finish what we started. If we didn't owe the civilian Iraqi then we certainly owe it to them now.

In Iraq as in everywhere else that Islamic Jihad rages, more Islamic people die than any other. Islam (the radical forms is not the religion of peace it claims)

We know that democracy in one form or another, even to some types of socialism still provide for freedom of expression/religion and thats the basis for physical security and life (the pursuit of happpiness) begins at that point. In my opinion all law and flows from that point. Jihad does not allow that, it must be destroyed.

The line got drawn in Iraq for whatever reason, it's the foot hold, toe hold, or fist jammed into the rockface that hold us up. We can't stop.

The out look, although it is true that coalition soldeirs have been killed and maimed and wounded, remains bright and optomistic. In my humble opinion. Our military is trained for this, is training for this, and continues to evolve and adapt in the face of a bunch of thugs, criminals and paid assassins the only reason they have had the very limited success so far is that their methods of attacking the common ground troop is very difficult to counter, but amazingly we are doing that, we find five times more IED's than get set off and wound or kill.

In any ground operation there coalition forces dominate in the extreme over the enemy, they can't launch an offensive that can be susutained all they can do is fast and suicidal attacks, true they have done some bold things and its worked but those occurances cannot sustain them and are few and far between.

You see thier terror is effective becasue its working on you all here, your letting them win. Right now this thread feeds the momentum they need, you just dont get it. They know as long as we are there they can't win, the psychological operation that they now employ is this kind of thinking.

They're sitting back and saying, look its working they argue in their congress about it, the american people have spoken and oh we like it so very much.

Fools!

We arent the laughing stock of the world for nothing, we've earned it, becasue we havnt got the gonads to finish what we start, and it was right to start it, it was right to free those common Iraqi's. It's right to be there.

You on this thread who spread the gloom and doom are the ones that will have to explain to your grand children why Iran is the largest radical islamic nation in the world, when they soak up everything towards Syria.

We have them on the run, and most of you want to give up?

I just dont get the mentality.

Its like tieing a boxers arm to his sides in the 12th round. Don't matter how much he bobs and weaves in the 13th and 14th round, or how many times round the ring in the 15th (if he makes it that far) hes going down for the count.

Cut and Run! Yeah, folks contenents are only so big.

Fight now when they are reletively weak or many more will die later.


So why do we handcuff our troops Far? Why does the US lay back and not go in there and clean house? I think this is what we promised the hamstrung peoples we would do...........

Now I think they just want to kill their own to prove the US wrong.....terrorism again?
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Post by Galbally »

I also think oil was something of a side issue as well to be honest.
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TruthBringer
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Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:39 pm

Ok......I am Pissed

Post by TruthBringer »

Far Rider;551525 wrote: Well, bascily weve done a misuse of troops, not necessarily a handcuff of troops.

The problem as I see it is we don't have enough military police to do the type of job needed in Iraq, and its beccasue in our initial show of force in the liberation we lacked the amount of combat troops needed to maintin security...

Let me give it to you pictured in a six block senario:

We need enough basic grunts to cover the threat of any squad level movement of enemy forces in a six block area. We then need the MP's to do thier work inside that same area, the actual policing, entering of a home, arresting and detaining for processing into the hands of those who investigate and charge or decide whos a combatant and who isnt.

What we tried to do is turn every grunt going to Iraq into an MP.

Had we, built up the gurnts first, we call it securing a perimiter, then bring in the MP's we'd have been more effective.

This brings security, this brings hope for the basic civilian, this fostors trust and change.

The answer isnt cut and run, the answer is massively build up NOW and do what we said we were gonna do.

I understand your frustration.

But I have to say that, even had we swelled more troops there initially we'd have still encured as many casualites. What weve done is prolong this when we could have seen more complaints in the UN by grandstanding Iran and Syria rather than the level and scope of IED's there still.


Look I can't get over the fact that you actually believe that we have a chance in Iraq. That we will "win the war on terror" by defeating the insurgents in Iraq.

At best. All we could do is liberate Iraq, even if we pushed all the insurgents out. Then what? What would we do then? Would we set up an American post there permanently? Yeah right? It would be blown up before we knew what hit us.

Rule number one. America can not take over Iraq. It can not even create a stable Iraq.

Never in history, has one country been "saved" by another country, without the people of that country taking care of the core issues for themselves.

In other words, no country ever became free, unless it was the people of THAT country itself that decided it wanted it that way.

Britain got it's ass wooped by Scottland and Ireland. lol. Back in the day. Why? Because Scottland and Ireland said, we're taking matters into our own hands.

They didn't need another country to come in and "save the day". Nobody did anyways.

We will never win the "war on terror", because it can't be won militarily or politicly. There is no way to win a "war on terror", when you have no real enemy to defeat. That war could go on for ages (it won't it will only last for another 3-4 years or so due to Mother Nature interfering), but if she didn't, I guarantee you that this war would never end. EVER. If the Controllers had it their way, we would be suckered into fighting the war on "terror" for thousands upon thousands of years.

And they would have hoped to eliminate most of the World's population as well.

These people are sick, twisted, and they have an agenda that will never work for them. They truly believe that they are on the verge of achieving total dominance. They are wrong. lol. They are on the verge of watching all that dissapear, they just don't know it yet.

It's funny to watch all of this stuff from the outside looking in. You can see it all clearly that way.

Whatever you do folks, don't let yourself get dragged into the illusion of it all. Once you get pulled into it, you can't see clearly in one direction or the other. No, you need to remain outside of it all, observing, and then you can see what's really going on here.
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abbey
Posts: 15069
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:00 pm

Ok......I am Pissed

Post by abbey »

Pinky;552241 wrote: I reponding purely to the title here...I'm getting there too, hehe!

Sorry, couldn't resist it!:wah:
:wah: I think the same every time i see this thread........Cheers!
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