Teens cause a miscarriage...

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:17 pm

This story is happening in my neck of the woods, but I'd like some input on it...

A teenage couple in Armada MI. becomes pregnant. He is 17 she is 16. When they discover their predicament, the girl encourages the boy to hit her in the stomach with a baseball bat to cause a miscarriage. They proceed to do this every couple of days, over a three-week period, until, of course, she miscarries. When authorities become aware of what they have done, they charge the boy with "causing a miscarriage" and because that is the only charge, the girl is not charged with anything. The boy will be tried as a juvenile, and the harshest sentence he will receive is a year in a youth home.

Now, I have my opinion on this, but for the sake of debate, I'm not going to put it down quite yet. I'd like to know what you think...about what they did, about the charging, and the punishment.

Peg · Post by **Peg** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:41 pm

They were both old enough to understand what they were doing. Granted, they probably were scared to death to tell their parents, and maybe with good reason, but they knew the chances they took having sex in the first place and that what they did, in my opinion, was murder. I think she should be charged too because she not only encouraged him, she stood there and let him hit her in the stomach. A group home, at least here in Ohio, and in West Virginia, is not punishment as it's supposed to be.

persephone · Post by **persephone** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:04 pm

I don't think I can make such harsh judgements without knowing the metal age of the couple and background circumstances.

I know there are cases where even at that age they do not understand the implications of sex, or about the birds and the bees, although I realise that is difficult to believe in this day and age, as an example of how this can happen though...

There is a woman in my class, she is African and very religious, she has ran away from her husband with her twins (there is a story of abuse with rape and all sorts). In a lecture we were debating sex education, and she has made it clear that she will not allow her children to have sex education at school, and she herself will not talk to them about it until they are at least 16 years old. Now unless these children are smart enough to go off and look at books all they will have is their school friends stories, and their own curiousity. She really believes that she can protect them and that in doing this she will be protecting them.

At the same time I know people with Downes who can tell you exactly where babies come from and how they are made, they have been educated at a young age, and will even tell you exactly why they chose to use protection... In this they seem more advanced than any "normal" teenager.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:51 am

BabyRider wrote: A teenage couple in Armada MI. becomes pregnant. He is 17 she is 16. When they discover their predicament, the girl encourages the boy to hit her in the stomach with a baseball bat to cause a miscarriage.

Haven't you some new law that focusses on just this?

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:08 am

That is one of the most horrible stories I have ever heard. They both should be charged. Whether or not they understood the implications of sex, has nothing to do with it. The sex part is over. Do they understAND THE IMPLICATIONS OF MURDER IS THE QUESTION. And are they both in their right minds? Behavior like this is an outward manifistation of some very serious inner problems. I would seriously have to think,probobly beyond correction. Such an utter disregard for human life... I shudder to think of the kind of background they both come from.

rachelg · Post by **rachelg** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:03 am

Rather than take such a chance on not only aborting the fetus, but causing severe injury to the mother, why did they not use an abortion clinic and make sure it was done safely? :-3 Was she too far along?

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:02 am

I'll start with rachelg and work my up...She was about 9 weeks along (if the news reports are accurate) when they started, so she miscarried at about 12 weeks. Does anyone know how far along is too late to get an abortion? (I think it's 24 weeks, but am not sure)

These kids come form normal, lower-middle class families. And I agree with weeder as far as the implications of murder. I believe that one of the many things so wrong with our society is that no one is held accountable for their actions anymore. Anyone, with any flimsy B.S. excuse and a semi-competent lawyer can get away with anything. And these kids are going to get away with murder.

Bill: what exactly are you refferring to? Do you know of a new law regarding this?

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:55 am

BabyRider wrote: Bill: what exactly are you refferring to? Do you know of a new law regarding this?

Some bloke called Peterson over your way knocked off his wife, who was pregnant at the time. This seems to have been a factor influencing the enactment of something called the "Unborn Victims of Violence Act". A quick look around the Garden will show up a thread referring to it somewhere.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:01 am

I heard recently that President Bush is going to ban abortion in the US,in this new year 2005?

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:02 pm

Sure, there are worse things going on in the world today, murdering children is commonplace now...but dosen't this send a real strong message to the kids in our society?: "Ok kids, go ahead, have unprotected sex, and when you end up pregnant, you can get rid of it by any means necessary, risking your own life as well, and the worst you'll get is a slap on the wrist." It's revolting to pass this off as "Well, things could be worse." You have CHILDREN out there with zero respect for human life. Again, my argument about people never being held accountable for their own actions is proven, a bit too clearly for my tastes.

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:31 pm

willow wrote: A lot of you are claiming that this is paramount to murder. But surely, then, the same could be said of abortion? Is it therefore just the manner in which it was done that you all disapprove of?
Abortion is a topic we could get involved in, and debate for days and days.It also intertwines with religion so its difficult to discuss. Sometimes we need to get clearer on issues,strip away all of the fat and get right ot the bone of it. I find that the young nowdays cloud horrendous issues by turning them into fantasys. That is how they live with the things that they do. Answering to oneself does not appear to be an activity taken up by many in this troubled era. Dont dare to compare a 38 year old woman who has sucessfully and responsibly raised three children on very little money.. who finds herself pregnant.. and decides..(despite the fact that it rips her heart out) to have an abortion. Trust me she will pay the consequences mentally for the rest of her life. To.................... two cold blooded

immoral, irresponsible,ghoulish killers, who beat something to death with a baseball bat... flushed it down the toilet..and just went on.... This kind of a mind cannott even be rehabilitated.. These are two little obnoxious horiffic creatures who will turn into grown up Ted Bundys. They could kill you, your daughter, your sister, or your mom.. out in the woods.. cover the body with leaves... and walk away. Im not mad at you... Im just mad. Mad at this distorted, excuse ridden cruel world we live in.... Because I remember it when it wasnt this way. Oh yes we had a serial killer here and there.. There have always been sick minds running around. But now we have NO CONSEQUENCES FOR ACTIONS. Entertainment is watching people get slaughtered. And the law is a game of figuring out loopholes to set monsters free.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:54 pm

capt_buzzard wrote: I heard recently that President Bush is going to ban abortion in the US,in this new year 2005?
nope. the president of the US doesn't have the power to do so.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:57 pm

the girl encourages the boy to hit her in the stomach with a baseball bat to cause a miscarriage.forgive me for my resident curmudgeonly ways, and i'm not criticizing the original poster, just in general: i can't stand the colloquial use of the word 'stomach' when what people really mean is 'belly'. in most people, the stomach is largely up under the rib cage, not down near the navel. 'belly' is a terrific word, evocative, and i don't think anyone has any question when you say 'belly' you mean 'right behind the belly button'!

that's my linguistics rant for today.

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:24 pm

willow wrote: "Dont dare to compare a 38 year old woman who has sucessfully and responsibly raised three children on very little money.. who finds herself pregnant.. and decides..(despite the fact that it rips her heart out) to have an abortion. Trust me she will pay the consequences mentally for the rest of her life. To.................... two cold blooded

immoral, irresponsible,ghoulish killers, who beat something to death with a baseball bat... flushed it down the toilet..and just went on.... This kind of a mind cannott even be rehabilitated"

My point is, yes the methods are different. But the result is still the same: death of a fetus. So one cannot say that the two teens in questions are killers and the woman isn't: either they both are, or both aren't.

I do not believe that religion should dictate medicine though.
You didnt comprehend anything I said. Its OK I dont care. What in gods name does religion dictating medicine have anything to do with the issue.? I am getting too riled up by some of the topics here today. I have to get up from this screen .. go outside, and try to feel alive.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:46 pm

Captain Buzzard...the President has no authority to ban abortion, thank God.

Bill...Yes, the Peterson trial has encouraged people to attempt to pass a law concerning a person causing the death of a fetus. Mothers, however would be exempt from this law, therefore protecting a woman's right to choose. Whether or not that law has been passed, I don't believe it has been. Considering that the number one cause of death among pregnant women in the U.S. is murder, I think it would be a good law. As long as the right to choose is not taken away by it.

Willow...Yes, the result is the same, a baby dies. But you cannot say the mental state of the 38-year old mother of 3 and the mental state of these kids is the same. It's a cold-blooded unconcern for life. The baby's and, frankly, the pregnant girls. I was trying to raise the point that kids have no concern for the consequences of their actions and respect nothing. And the system showed them, unequivocally, that it's ok. They caused the death of what would have been a living breathing person with no thought for the repercussions. And walked away scott-free. It's a sad commentary on society as a whole.

Anastrophe...Ahhh to live in your world where the biggest concern is correcting people's use of anatomy terms....

(I'm joking, of course) :wah:

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:42 pm

willow wrote: weeder...I am sorry if I've upset or offended you as I did not mean to. I simply meant that, at least in my beliefs, abortion is abortion and causes the same outcome.

My second point was that I don't like religion interfering with medicne, e.g. catholics disapproving of abortion/contraception etc. That is all. I did not intend to make it sound like I disrespected your point of view.

Willow.. dont get upset. I said I am not mad at you. Our life experiences formulate

our outlook on things. I get frustrated, as many people do..... because we have strong opinions on things based on what we have experienced and lived. When my sons were born, I looked down at their sweet little faces and I said " The world is a beautiful place... I am going to show it to you. Well the world is not a beautiful place. It is filled with mine fields and ugly dangerous places, and that concept is very hard to swallow and very hard to accept. I am not known for my patience with the young. I would not make a very good teacher. Keep writing.

writing and use of the word are the most creative and influencing tools we humans have to change the world. Forgive me, I have gotten very emmotional today. Many of the subjects I have tapped into here have gotten me very upset.

Getting involved with FG has broadened my world , and has me examining topics

I have ignored for a long time.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:17 am

BabyRider wrote: Bill...Yes, the Peterson trial has encouraged people to attempt to pass a law concerning a person causing the death of a fetus. Mothers, however would be exempt from this law, therefore protecting a woman's right to choose. Whether or not that law has been passed, I don't believe it has been. Considering that the number one cause of death among pregnant women in the U.S. is murder, I think it would be a good law. As long as the right to choose is not taken away by it.

A "hot topic" in the 'States that people are so unaware of? This is law has been enacted. Here's the text of the bill- http://www.theorator.com/bills108/s146.html .

When you mean "right to choose" above, what do you mean?

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:23 am

http://www.macombdaily.com To read the full facts..

persephone · Post by **persephone** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:25 am

After reading the "FULL" story, seems you are all argueing about things without the facts here, she was 6 months pregnant and by the Law of their state she would've had to tell her parents to be allowed to have a proper abortion.

Ignoring the fact that if they were old enough to have sex then they were old enough to understand the repercussions of sex arguement. Have any of you thought how a 15 year old must feel to a) realise she is pregnant b) deals with this fact c) Tells her parents?

You are all thinking as adults and calling them cold blooded killers is apalling, they are children 15 and 16 years old, if I think how I would feel in their situation it would tear me apart to feel I have no other option than doing something so horrific. Thankfully I've always felt I could go to my mum about problems.

Here in the UK children can give consent without their parents knowing for any surgical procedure as long as they are shown to be competent in understanding what the procedure entails and the risks, the Gillick v West Norfolk and Wisbech AHA [1985] is very relevant to this thread in light of the full story.

I'm still not saying what they did was right but, looks like in their minds they had no other options left to them. The case also seems far more complicated in so far as parents became involved afterwards and may have helped with the disposal of the foetus.

Are they just as bad for protecting their children?

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:33 am

Well Said Letha Hon, ITS ALWAYS BEST TO LOOK AT THE FULL FACTS BEFORE PASSING JUDGEMENT.......

Attached files

persephone · Post by **persephone** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:47 am

Abbey well done you for finding the full story, it's always better to debate the rights and wrongs with all the facts.

Maybe there should be a gossip board for those who prefer to dispense with them

Peg · Post by **Peg** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:23 am

Even after reading the full story, the fact remains that these children are old enough to know right from wrong. They murdered a baby. Had I become pregnant at that age, I would have been scared to death to tell my parents, but I would have instead of trying to kill the baby.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:30 am

letha wrote: After reading the "FULL" story, seems you are all argueing about things without the facts here, she was 6 months pregnant and by the Law of their state she would've had to tell her parents to be allowed to have a proper abortion.

We "are all arguing" ? Hm.

It seems that they might not have been able to get an abortion in their State *at all* as the age of the foetus was above the limit.

letha wrote: I'm still not saying what they did was right but, looks like in their minds they had no other options left to them.

Is that a defence? Anyway, whatever... it looks as though the male has committed a crime, and that the female (and possibly others) may be charged wit something.

letha wrote: The case also seems far more complicated in so far as parents became involved afterwards and may have helped with the disposal of the foetus.

Are they just as bad for protecting their children?

Possibly... they seem to have attempted to pervert the course of justice. Is this allowable?

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:32 am

Peg wrote: Even after reading the full story, the fact remains that these children are old enough to know right from wrong. They murdered a baby.

I assume you say that that because the time limit for abortion had apparently been exceeded. Is that a true accumption?

Peg · Post by **Peg** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:37 am

Yes. While I don't agree with abortion, the baby was 6 months old. 6 months! They had time to think this through. Why wait and carry the baby for 6 months? I cannot even begin to fathom what they were thinking. She could have bled to death. I realize they are children, and even most adults don't make the right decisions, but I don't believe it should go unpunished.

persephone · Post by **persephone** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:30 am

Bill Sykes wrote: Is that a defence? Anyway, whatever... it looks as though the male has committed a crime, and that the female (and possibly others) may be charged wit something.
No it isn't a defense at all, and again try thinking like a child, that was my point.

Bill Sykes wrote: It seems that they might not have been able to get an abortion in their State *at all* as the age of the foetus was above the limit.It doesn't give dates, just says she went to see about an abortion in the Fall and that lead to the secret meetings, which also happened in the fall over a two week period.

Now go do your maths the pathologist determined and I quote "determined the fetus was roughly 25 weeks along in development at the time of death, "give or take a period" of several days. Michigan law generally prohibits abortion after the 24th week of pregnancy without a significant health concern at play, but Spitz still said he felt the fetus wasn't viable at the time of delivery or miscarriage."

So looks likely that if the Law was different then the conclusion would've been different whatever anyones personal thoughts about abortion are.

Peg wrote: Why wait and carry the baby for 6 months?Poor education maybe, or just not able to read her own body, strange things are happening to a female body at 15 anyway.

It happens quite a lot that young girls don't realise or just "hope it goes away" if they do.

I have a friend who was in her 20's and never knew she was pregnant until she was almost 7 months gone, the doctors had began investigations after she went to them with a complaint of stomach problems and anemia. The doctors asked if she thought she might be pregnant and she said no because she was on the pill, they never even told her to stop taking it at that point.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:23 am

Well there you go...(This would go well on the debate about whether our news is censored or not.) I got the information I posted from a televised news program, which apparently did NOT have all the facts :-5 There is nothing more frustrating than an issue where you don't have all the info. I purposely avoid the Macomb Daily here, because it is a very small paper, but I'm going to look at that story now. It does not change my opinion that this was wrong, (which, as you see, is an opinion).

Maybe we do need to have a gossip board. Threads like this can be started there, before all the facts are gathered, and see what everyone comes up with!

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:45 am

How does this news article change anything? Why are we able to say... " Oh kids are becoming sexually active much younger these days" la lal la la

So its supposed to be.. Oh kids are committing murder much younger these days.

Ill bet there are a good percentage of posters here who have had an unplanned pregnancy scare.. at one time in their life. Ill bet there isnt anyone who even thought of doing what these kids did. Because the behavior is totally out of the realm of normalcy, scared or not.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:57 am

THAT was my point weeder. Again, I apologize for the incomplete story, and the point I was after was that so many kids out there have no respect for ANYTHING, including human life. If they could do this to their own child, what could they do to any living person? It's scary. And yes, totally out of the realm of normalcy.

And if these kids felt they couldn't go to their parents for help, who's to blame for that?

persephone · Post by **persephone** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 5:12 pm

That's the thing, no one knows what could drive children to do something like this, and yes it's scary.

I don't want to pass blame onto the parents, and maybe I am the only one who sees this, but the girl began to talk about it whilst away from her family, all it should've taken was for her to go to one of her parents to gain concent for an abortion, but for whatever reason she couldn't. When interviewed seperately there are no gaps in eithers accounts of the events, and they do match.

Seems like two scared children, trying to deal with an adult problem on their own. They ended up doing something unthinkable in the eyes of society, and now they have owned up to it. For her to mention it and then neither of them give stories that are doubted by the police, I would say these children are not quite the monsters they first seem. This based on there being two reasons for her to mention it to others in the first place 1. To brag 2. Guilt

If she had mentioned it to brag then shouldn't the two accounts be different, with one being greatly exagerated?

Guilt is not normally asociated with cold blooded killers.

Like I say anyway, it's just the way I see it. They still done something wrong, but as the lawyer says, I'm not sure that the way they are going to handle things is the best way of preventing this happening again, also not sure what would be, except to change the law on parental consent.

ashgrove02 · Post by **ashgrove02** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 5:26 pm

the girl should of been charged and the charges should of been harsher but as u say its the society we live in .......... it brings shame upon us all ........ i think a murder charge should of been brought against them it was a life after all

persephone · Post by **persephone** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:36 am

Calling it murder is a personal thing, and has to be based on what you see as being a viable life.

In this case the pathologist has said that it was just over the period which the law says makes it viable, but then he goes on to say that medically it wasn't viable.

It will forever be a never ending argument based on personal beliefs, whatever science and the law says.