Christian Asceticism, Masochism and Power

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:28 pm

Throughout the centuries the Christian ascetic has inspired a feeling of fear and wonder in the human herd. The reason why the Christian ascetic is the source of so much awe is because his existence forces us to ask ourselves a question which is profound, if not alarming: viz. What if it were necessary to be like the Christian ascetic? What if we were required to deny ourselves in the way that he does? What if God wanted us to live like that too? Needless to say, this is a dreadful possibility for the sensuous or worldly man to have to confront - the possibility that, in the eyes of God, his whole way of life is morally wrong compared with the Christian ascetic's and therefore utterly damnable.

Now, you would be naive to think that the Christian ascetic turns against his self and forgoes the pleasures of this world purely for the sake of his spiritual development and welfare. As we shall see, Christian asceticism has little to do with spiritual 'purity' but a great deal to do with something altogether mundane. So let's take a peek at what lurks behind the mask of Christian asceticism and its cognates - e.g., Christian 'abstinence', Christian 'unworldliness', Christian 'sacrifice', Christian 'selflessness', Christian 'humility', etc....

What should be noted right away about the Christian ascetic is that it is not enough for him to witness his own turning from the world, his own denial of self, his own suffering. No. He needs others to witness these things as well. Why is this? Well, the reason for this is because the Christian ascetic seeks - either consciously or unconsciously - to induce via the spectacle of his suffering a certain affect in his audience: specifically, a depressive affect (e.g., pity, guilt, existential angst, gloom, self-doubt, self-condemnation, self-loathing, etc.) Thus, the Christian ascetic's suffering is driven by a malign purpose: namely, to undermine the mental and emotional well-being of whoever is unfortunate enough to cross his path and empathise with him. Nietzsche (1994, pp. 49-50) provides the following illustration of how this devious strategy works:

'Observe how children weep and cry, so that they will be pitied, how they wait for the moment when their condition will be noticed. Or live among the ill and depressed, and question whether their eloquent laments and whimpering, the spectacle of their misfortune, is not basically aimed at hurting those present. The pity that the spectators then express consoles the weak and suffering, inasmuch as they see that, despite all their weakness, they still have at least one power: the power to hurt.'

The Christian ascetic, then, seeks to hurt and incapacitate those individuals who, unlike himself, have no need of pity: viz. the powerful, the noble, the masterful, the vigorous, the stable, the resolute - in a word, the healthy type of individual. Because the Christian ascetic is a weak and decadent type every healthy human being serves as a constant reminder of his own sickly condition. The healthy individual's natural vitality and capacity to live confidently, fearlessly and without remorse are a source of pain to the Christian ascetic, and they inflame his secret spite. Therefore, his ultimate goal is to disable the healthy individual by inveigling the latter to turn against not just himself but life in toto (i.e., 'the earthly realm' - in religio-speak). The Christian ascetic accomplishes this through the spectacle of his own suffering and mortification for the mere sight of him is sufficient to subdue an onlooker's natural energy and lust for life. The Christian ascetic functions as the scarecrow of life for his entire existence is an argument against it: thus, he effectively undermines the healthy individual through sowing seeds of self-doubt in him and by casting a shadow over life in general. By sabotaging the healthy individual in this way, the Christian ascetic obtains 'a kind of pleasure from it for his self-image revives - he is still important enough to inflict harm on others' (Nietzsche, 1994 p. 50). Christian asceticism, then, is a covert means by which the sickly type of human being exerts power over stronger types.

The Christian ascetic is a weak and malignant type who constitutes a particular sub-species of the Christian genus - an extremely rare variety in whom the spirit of resentment has undergone the most elaborate sublimations. Nevertheless, he provides us with a general insight into the nature of the Christian creed and why it continues to flourish in the 21st century. Thus, the reason why Christianity is still embraced by many people in the contemporary world is because it is a religion for every kind of weakling. It appeals to all those who experience themselves as inadequate in various ways and who find life in this world frightening and overwhelmingly difficult. But there is more to its appeal than just this. For not only does Christianity promise weak types release from themselves, an abode of peace, a shoulder, a bosom...rest: it also promises them vengeance against healthy individuals who live in this world on the basis of their own inner resources and without the aid of that religion's Grand Illusion.

The Christian religion has been extremely alluring to weak and resentful human beings throughout its history. This accounts for why it flourished most strongly at its birth among the lowest elements within the Roman Empire - viz. the slaves, the dispossessed, the powerless, the wretched, the shiftless, the marginalised, the Lumpen. It promised these embittered, pitiful, inferior types release from this heartless world, release from the hideous wet blanket of their self, and vengeance against those strong, noble, gifted types in comparison with whom their own baseness and weakness were made painfully obvious to themselves - viz. the Roman patrician, the Roman judge, the Roman philosopher, the Roman artist, the Roman poet - indeed, the Roman per se. Thus, the early church father, Tertullian, offered the following prospect to the Christian rabble:

'How we shall admire, laugh, rejoice, and exult, when we behold so many proud Pagans groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates who persecuted the name of the Lord, liquefying in fiercer fires than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sage philosophers blushing in red hot flames, with their deluded scholars; so many celebrated poets trembling before the tribunal, not of Minos, but of Christ!....' (Gibbon, 1958 p. 29)

The same spirit of revenge underpins Thomas Aquinas's promise to a later generation of Christians. Thus, the 'saintly' Thomas writes:

'The blessed in the heavenly kingdom will see the torment of the damned so that they may even more thoroughly enjoy their blessedness.'

Christianity is born of, and sustained by, human fear and impotence in the face of the terror and uncertainty of life. It holds an almost irresistible appeal for those who lack the stomach or skill to deal with adversity - whether this takes the form of a struggle against the world, against others, or against oneself. In essence it has always been, and remains, a religion for slaves. This is often explicitly stated in that manifesto for slaves - The New Testament (e.g., 'The meek shall inherit the earth'; 'He who is last shall be first', etc.) Christianity's slavish character is also implicit in a number of its moral precepts: for example, in its exhortations to 'turn the other cheek' and to 'love one's enemies'. Lofmark (1990) comments on these two precepts as follows:

'Turning the other cheek reduces a man to the moral status of a dog abused by his master: it destroys his self-respect. While it is generous to forgive your enemy, it is usually absurd and unrealistic to love him, and the effort to force yourself may lead you into the very real moral offence of hypocrisy: pretending to be something that you are not, sporting a false smile on your face that hides the real venom in your heart.'

It should be clear from the above that Christian 'asceticism', Christian 'humility', Christian 'self-effacement', etc. are fundamentally driven by the Christian spider's desire for power over others (either in this world or the 'next'): specifically, those who have not succumbed to the poison of Christianity. We can see this same covert drive for power in a related form of behaviour in our own life: viz. Masochism. Thus, it is important to realise that our masochism isn't all about suffering. No. It provides us with a certain payoff - this being the gratification of appearing as a martyr in our own eyes and in the eyes of an imagined audience. For example, in the midst of our unsatisfactory love-relationships we indulge in various forms of masochistic thinking such as 'Look at how I sacrifice myself for my partner.'...'The heartless pig will be sorry when I'm gone. Wait and see.'...'At least God and the angels know how much I endure for the sake of that selfish s**t.'...etc. The purpose of these ruminations is, of course, to convert ourselves from the status of victim into psychological victor over our partner.

The same kind of martyrish strategy is also evident in our sexual behaviour. Thus, we negate our sexual humiliation at the hands of our partner by declaring to ourselves and our fantasised audience: 'Contrast-my-saintliness-with-the-swine-who-degrades-me.' Plainly, no matter how abject our sexual humiliation may be - no matter how much excrement we are forced to eat, no matter how much urine is showered over us, no matter how many whip strokes we receive and how loudly we shriek - there is a part of ourselves which secretly derives a feeling of power from our debasement.

Regards

James

References:

Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae Supplement to the Third Part, question XCVII, article i, 'conclusio'

Gibbon, E. (1958) The Triumph Of Christendom In The Roman Empire (Chapters XV-XX of The History Of The Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire) J. B. Bury Edition, New York: Harper Torchbooks

Lofmark, C. (1990) What is the Bible?, London: Rationalist Press Association. Quoted in L. Kennedy (1999) All In The Mind: A Farewell To God, London: Hodder and Stoughton (p. 74)

Nietzsche, F. (1994) Human, All Too Human, Harmondsworth: Penguin Classics

Saffron · Post by **Saffron** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:40 pm

Glaswegian;505101 wrote:

Christianity is born of, and sustained by, human fear and impotence in the face of the terror and uncertainty of life. It holds an almost irresistible appeal for those who lack the stomach or skill to deal with adversity - whether this takes the form of a struggle against the world, against others, or against oneself. In essence it has always been, and remains, a religion for slaves.

Wow, interesting!

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:46 pm

ascetic.............this is the wiccan faith............where did you get Christian applied to that?

How in your mind did you apply masochism to anything good. The need to apply pain?

Power can be applied to anything on this Earth and to any relationship.

I disagree with you on every point.

ShawnG · Post by **ShawnG** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:29 pm

Ah us Christians, as we are all the pathetic slave creatures that we are, it is a mystery why a worldly, strong, infinitely reasonable man who is entirely comfortable with his existance seems to delight so much in tormenting us obviously mal-adjusted and brainwashed wretches. What purpose would it serve if he has the answers and is superior in his thought patterns to heap scorn on those already down-trodden? Teach us More O' great dispenser of wisdom! Illuminate our blackness so that we may share in your obvious and rational magnificence! Give us the secret that we may cast off our weary bonds of self-imposed misery and bask in the joys of cynicism, lust, pride, and avarice! we will never know sorrow in the land of gratification without satisfaction! we will be filled with wonder at the logical nature of it all! why all of it makes sense!

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:22 am

Sarcasm drip Cleanup Aisle 12!!

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 8:03 pm

ShawnG:-6

Priceless. LOL

Shalom

Ted:-6

koan · Post by **koan** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:50 am

There are, as usual, a few essential flaws in logic that begin as early as the first sentence.

And it is St. Thomas Aquinas. He earned it.

koan · Post by **koan** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:00 am

Diuretic;506082 wrote: Flaws in logic?
It gets sillier and sillier as we go through the OP

Let's start with "Throughout the centuries the Christian ascetic has inspired a feeling of fear and wonder in the human herd." Humans, if herd animals, most certainly don't move in one herd. If we did there would be fewer wars. While some might feel fear and others wonder when they think of the ascetic, I find the notion that absurd that humans as a herd feel such things about anything but a disease, such as the plague. As ascetics shut themselves away into monastries or become hermits they can hardly be found flaunting their ways in public.

Does that suffice for now? It is rather painful to go through the entire thing start to finish.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:08 am

I don't read long posts generally (maybe ADD), and I don't read Glassy's because the pervading fear makes me simultaneously sad for and irritated at him.

But I'm willing to hang out awhile, if only to find out: what are "all the wrong reasons"?

ShawnG · Post by **ShawnG** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:16 am

The most obvious breach of logic is that the whole thing is a straw man argument, and presumes motivations without proof. I was going to do a blow by blow of all of the lapses in logic, but it would take too much time, and besides, sarcasm is more fun.

koan · Post by **koan** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:33 pm

ShawnG;506212 wrote: The most obvious breach of logic is that the whole thing is a straw man argument, and presumes motivations without proof. I was going to do a blow by blow of all of the lapses in logic, but it would take too much time, and besides, sarcasm is more fun.

This has been the case with all of Glaswegian's threads. The presumption's that a proof has been given just because he used the word "therefore". :rolleyes:

Sarcasm works for me.

911 · Post by **911** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:05 pm

I think Glas' main problem is that he doesn't write any of this. He copies it and posts it here to stir people up.

He probably has no form of religion and is jealous of anyone who does. Because the majority of persons believe in some diety or other, he is jealous and lost and desires, needs, craves some answers even though they come from reactions to his tirades.

He is a lost soul on a journey of disbelief desperately looking for something to believe in. Even if it comes though in discourse or some dissertation he feels will ignite the most in its readers.

Pity him, teach him, help him find something or someone to believe in.

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:32 pm

koan;506086 wrote: As ascetics shut themselves away into monastries or become hermits they can hardly be found flaunting their ways in public.

That statement of yours, koan, is hilarious. It is almost as hilarious as the one you made about Aleister Crowley contributing to the advancement of metaphysics.

The day you leave the Forum Garden will be a sad day indeed, koan. Because you are the best comedian we have in it. And that is no small achievement on your part, koan, given the fact that the Garden is overrun with comedians (I mean just think of all the Christian ones that can be found in it!).

The gaffes which you frequently make when you respond to my posts, koan, are so outlandishly funny that they deserve to be given a name all of their own. I am going to call them 'koanisms'.

Now let's take another look at your latest koanism. Viz...

koan wrote: As ascetics shut themselves away into monasteries or become hermits they can hardly be found flaunting their ways in public.
An excellent example of a Christian ascetic making a public spectacle of himself, koan, is St. Simeon Stylites (390-459) who spent about forty years on top of a sixty-foot column in the desert east of Antioch. During those long years many thousands of Christians flocked to see Simeon Stylites perched high above them in the desert sky. Simeon Stylites excited much wonder and adulation among the Christian rabble who no doubt emitted lots of 'oohs' and 'aahs' as they pointed him out to each other with mouths agog. Why was this Christian ascetic made a saint? Not for living usefully and performing charitable works but simply for being a crass exhibitionist who wasted forty years of his life. To rational individuals, Simeon Stylites was a useless eater in the fullest possible sense of that term.

koan · Post by **koan** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:43 pm

This is a great example of your own strange sense of reasoning; you've got one guy and you use him to make a statement on all ascetics. Ridiculous. One guy. You could find a dozen and you'd still be wrong. You are a herd of one, Glaswegian.

Post by **spot** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:50 pm

The word monastery comes from the Greek μοναστήριον "monasterion", from the root "monos" = alone (originally all Christian monks were hermits), and the suffix "-terion" = place for doing something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monastery

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:17 pm

koan;506455 wrote: You are a herd of one, Glaswegian.
In your opinion I am.

But what have the cards told you about me, koan? What do they say that I am?

koan · Post by **koan** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:25 pm

Glaswegian;506510 wrote: In your opinion I am.

But what have the cards told you about me, koan? What do they say that I am?

:wah:

I thought you didn't believe in that stuff.

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:37 pm

koan;506523 wrote: :wah:

I thought you didn't believe in that stuff.
I don't believe in it. I just wanted you to give me another good laugh. As you know, koan, you have a talent for doing that.

koan · Post by **koan** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:51 pm

I enjoy making people laugh.

Can you summarize your OP for all the good people here, please? It seems a few people would prefer reading a precis. It is only suitable if you learn to do that yourself.

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:51 pm

Diuretic;506527 wrote: Scuse me I keep tripping over all the ad homina* lying around in here. What could be interesting keeps getting side-tracked by personal punch-ups. Good fun if you're involved, I admit that, but a bit yawnish to those who aren't - well at least not yet - drawn into it.
You are absolutely right, Diuretic. All of these personal attacks are so childish. I would rather get down to some serious debate. But it's just that koan keeps making faces at me. Look, she's doing it again! She's pulling both of her ears with her fingers and sticking her tongue out at me now....

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:38 pm

koan;506546 wrote: Can you summarize your OP for all the good people here, please?
Certainly.

The OP can be summarised for them as follows:

The Christian ascetic is a completely malignant and depressing life-form.

However, the OP can be summarised for you personally koan as follows:

Beware of Christian humility for it is only dissimulation - a mask worn by someone who really wants to suck your blood. Worse! - who wants to bury you alive beneath an ocean of webs spun by his tarantula-like thoughts.

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:55 pm

Diuretic;506620 wrote: This I can understand:

[quote=Glaswegian]The Christian ascetic is a completely malignant and depressing life-form.

And I agree with it.
Diuretic for President!

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:55 pm

Well maybe you can explain it to me, Di, because I don't understand.

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:08 pm

Accountable;506633 wrote: Well maybe you can explain it to me, Di, because I don't understand.
Of course you don't, Accountable! And do you know why? Because you are completely devoid of that which is necessary for understanding it. Viz...

Insight

koan · Post by **koan** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:13 pm

Are we supposed to worry about Buddhist asceticism as well? Or just the Christians?

koan · Post by **koan** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:33 pm

Diuretic;506665 wrote: As I walked away from the computer to get my bottle of Louis Roederer Kristal from the fridge....just kidding, I actually toddled off to make myself a cup of tea. Anyway I thought about that.

It's still pointless.

perhaps it's another matter of fundamentalists making it seem too extreme.

I'm against materialism but does that make me an ascetic? Do I have to whip myself to qualify?

koan · Post by **koan** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:42 pm

Diuretic;506683 wrote: Well if you were a masochist and you wanted to whip yourself koan I'd accuse you of being self-indulgent rather than ascetic

No, you most certainly aren't an ascetic simply because you're against materialism. And yes, it's right on the money to say that fundamentalists make it too extreme. I'll display my well-worn and worn-well (I hope) credentials as a moderate and say that some ascetic behaviour has a purpose but it has to be a means to an end and not an end in itself.

I hope that's not too obscure or that I sound like a self-indulgent owner-operator.

I understand the desire to not focus on the physical world. I don't approve of punishing one's body to feel purified.

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:59 pm

koan;506672 wrote: Do I have to whip myself to qualify?
No. You could always ask others to do this for you. And I'm sure they would be willing to accommodate you. But only if you really wanted them to, koan. I mean, I don't want you to feel that I'm trying to...er...force your hand on this matter.

koan · Post by **koan** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:12 pm

Glaswegian;506711 wrote: No. You could always ask others to do this for you. And I'm sure they would be willing to accommodate you. But only if you really wanted them to, koan. I mean, I don't want you to feel that I'm trying to...er...force your hand on this matter.

should I take that as you recommending yourself for the project? :rolleyes:

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:30 pm

koan;506723 wrote: should I take that as you recommending yourself for the project? :rolleyes:
Wild horses couldn't keep me from it.

koan · Post by **koan** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:09 pm

Glaswegian;506745 wrote: Wild horses couldn't keep me from it.

All it takes is one Christian. :wah:

You really need to get out more often.

Don't look me up.

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:10 am

Diuretic;506827 wrote: What is this Sybarites Anonymous now?
Not quite, Diuretic. But I take your point. Maybe I should have called this thread Flesh Inferno....

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:29 am

koan wrote: Are we supposed to worry about Buddhist asceticism as well? Or just the Christians?

Diuretic;506645 wrote: Ascetism is pointless, that's about it. I don't care if it's connected to a religion or if someone is living a life of self-abnegation for some other reason but it seems to me to be a denial of human potential and that is pointless.

I agree.

diuretic wrote: Balance. Moderation. Avoidance of the extreme.

This is the 'Middle Way' advocated by the Buddha in a nutshell, isn't it? The Buddha argued that 'the extremes of devotion to mere sense-pleasures and devotion to ascetic self-torment' must be avoided. Having experienced both of these extremes for himself he regarded them as 'spiritual dead-ends'.

Dr. Padmasiri de Silva, one of the foremost commentators on Buddhist psychology, writes:

'During the time of the Buddha there were some religious teachers who upheld that the mortification of the body would result in the purification of the soul. The path of self-mortification was one of the methods tried by Gotama for eight long years and rejected, and his [Middle Way] offers a striking contrast to the methods of self-mortification practised by the Jains. The deliberate attempt to live through painful experiences...was condemned by the Buddha, who saw it as the expression of craving and deflected aggression. He also condemned forms of punitive asceticism which required self-inflicted punishments for guilt in the form of penances, considering all violent attempts to deal with the problem of human suffering as lacking in insight and being subject to the delusion of the ego in a subtle form.'

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:35 am

Magenta flame;507030 wrote: WHo You calling a cow?:mad:
Certainly not you, my little kitten....

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:01 am

Diuretic;506645 wrote: The bit about ascetism Acc? Ascetism is pointless, that's about it. I don't care if it's connected to a religion or if someone is living a life of self-abnegation for some other reason but it seems to me to be a denial of human potential and that is pointless.
"Pointless" hardly sinks to vampirism or web-knitting.