Eat your vegetables

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:11 pm

We always hear that we should eat our vegetables, that vegetables are good for us, that vegetables will make us healthy. But as we know, it is not the vegetable that makes us healthy, but the vitamins held within. Eating broccoli is not necessary; it is just the time-honored way to stay healthy. So long as we find some other way to get the nutrients, such as vitamin supplements, it is good enough. But without any way to get those nutrients, we will eventually die.

People wonder why the strength of our democracy is failing. Why are so many imprisoned, so many more dependent on government assistance? I was watching a news interview program yesterday, discussing religion in America. The church guys were predictably saying that Americans had always been a religious people, and that the loss of religion was the cause of the current state of our society. Parts of what they said resonated with me.

Our form of democracy cannot survive without a firm foundation of morality. We can’t be generous to everyone, and depend on their morality to allow only the most needy to take advantage of the assistance offered. Legislators can’t think of every contingency, and must depend on citizens’ strength of integrity to ignore legal loopholes and do the right thing. We can’t watch politicians’ every move, every minute of every day, and must depend on their sense of duty and fair play to keep their duty foremost and resist the ever-stronger temptations that they face to bend the rules.

Sadly, ours has eroded to become a legalistic society. The letter of the law dictates what is right and wrong – meaning that if it is illegal it is wrong, and if it is not illegal it is right. Anything is permissible, until you get caught. A growing minority has lost the idea of the spirit of the law. In the past, laws could be written with large loopholes because people could be trusted to live within the spirit of the law. More and more people take advantage of these loopholes; indeed, some call it unwise not to. It has become “wrong to adhere to the spirit of the law.

A democratic society doesn’t need religion. It is not the church building that makes society strong, but the strong moral foundation religion provides. It is just the time-honored way we maintain strong morality. So long as we can find some supplement to stay moral, our society will survive. But without a strong moral foundation, our society will surely die.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:19 pm

Can a person have morality without being religious or having a religion?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:30 pm

RedGlitter;496824 wrote: Can a person have morality without being religious or having a religion?
Atheists will tell you yes. I learned that here in the Garden.

eda: It's simple respect and empathy for your fellow Man (big M).

LilacDragon · Post by **LilacDragon** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:52 pm

RedGlitter;496824 wrote: Can a person have morality without being religious or having a religion?

Of course you can.

But I think part of the problem isn't just that we have separated Church and State but that we have legislated such things as the Pledge of Allegience right out of our schools. When I was going to school, if a group of kids had wanted to have a Bible Study group in the library after school - that would have been fine. Now, not only would it not be considered in most schools but the students that might make such a request are ridiculed when they are turned down.

When I went to high school, I don't think I knew but maybe one or two people who's parents were divorced or who had two parents that worked. That is not the case now. In my son's 3rd grade class a majority of the children live with single parents or in homes where both parents work. They do not have the structure that we did when I was young.

Add to that the things that we see going on, unpunished (and sometimes rewarded) in our governments - both local and National - where in the world do we think our children will get their morality?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:58 pm

Children will get their morality from the same place they always have: their role models. Parents are responsible for being those role models and choosing good substitutes when their not around.

JacksDad · Post by **JacksDad** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:04 pm

So Rosie was right and The Donald was wrong?:-3

LilacDragon · Post by **LilacDragon** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:04 pm

Accountable;496848 wrote: Children will get their morality from the same place they always have: their role models. Parents are responsible for being those role models and choosing good substitutes when their not around.

Sorry, Accountable. But that answer is not only way to easy but not very likely. With single mom's working two jobs to try and stay off of food stamps they are not always able to have the last word on who their child spends time with after a certain age.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:09 pm

JacksDad;496852 wrote: So Rosie was right and The Donald was wrong?:-3
Ya lost me.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:13 pm

LilacDragon;496853 wrote: Sorry, Accountable. But that answer is not only way to easy but not very likely. With single mom's working two jobs to try and stay off of food stamps they are not always able to have the last word on who their child spends time with after a certain age.
Parents aren't responsible for their children??

This is the societal erosion I'm talking about. Parents don't want responsibility for their offspring, but don't want others disciplining them either. Something's got to give. There's a middle ground, but the parent has to accept ultimate responsibility.

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:16 pm

Accountable, if we sat down to design a new society, we'd undoubtedly use the same ethics that all humans (regardless of religion) have recognized as useful and appropriate...don't kill, don't steal, don't lie and don't treat your neighbor in ways you wouldn't want to be treated. This has NOTHING to do with religion, does it? It's common sense.

Despite what religious leaders will tell you (they DO have a strong agenda, after all,) society could get by very well without a religious base. Have you ever read the concepts of Secular Humanism? Start here: http://secularhumanism.org/

Religion is a divisive thing...it has encouraged horrible crimes against other societies and it undoubtedly always will. It causes conflict today when Christians want to extend their holidays into public schools and places and anyone who isn't Christian can just shut up and go along! The world conflict over religion is obvious and I needn't go into it, but I've asked many Christian friends to quietly examine their hearts and ask this question: "If I could convert the entire world to my faith, would I do it?" The answer, of course, is yes. Wonder what the nice pagans, Muslims, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists, etc, would think about that?

The only positive thing I can find about it has been expressed here today....it can comfort those who can't find comfort anywhere else.

Can society thrive without religion? Religious leaders have never allowed us to find out, have they?

JacksDad · Post by **JacksDad** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:18 pm

Miss USA acted like a spoiled brat doing some very immoral things and Trump kisses her on the head abd says it's ok.

Morals? Where are they?

Let's add to that.

Values and ethics.

My son is 6 years old and HE knows to open a door for a lady.

He saw my kill an innocent in a video game and got mad at me!

I'm with ya Accountable. We ALL should be accountable.

Morals, Values and Ethics are what makes a Democracy strong.

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:19 pm

Perhaps I misunderstood Accountable's initial question. But I'll ask this...isn't the real question one of personal responsibility?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:22 pm

Lulu2;496861 wrote: Perhaps I misunderstood Accountable's initial question. But I'll ask this...isn't the real question one of personal responsibility?
YES!! :yh_clap :yh_party :yh_clap

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:23 pm

Thank you.

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:25 pm

But, WHOSE ethics shall we use? My brother and his same-sex partner are among the most ethical people I know. I'd love to see them be able to formalize their loving union in a state-sanctioned way.

However, thousands of "ethical" people would cheerfully deny them this very basic right which those of us who are heterosexual enjoy every day.

This is one example of what I mean....getting past the RELGIOUS descrimination would be an excellent place to begin.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:28 pm

Lulu2;496864 wrote: Thank you.
We don't take responsibility any more. We don't tell kids' parents when they sneak around & break the rules. We don't accept responsibility when our own kids screw up. We don't hold politicians accountable for their actions (they are our employees, remember). We don't adhere to a personal moral code if the law lets us get away with it.

We don't help. We take.

When we can't take it ourselves, we demand the government take it and give it to us.

It's time we take personal responsibility and demand the same of others.

imo

.

LilacDragon · Post by **LilacDragon** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:29 pm

Yes, parents are ultimately responsible for their children. But, like everything else in this world - that isn't always so cut and dried.

When it comes to balancing government budgets, it is always the social programs that are set in place to help the poor, the handicapped and children are always the first programs to be cut. While I know that you are against handouts - programs such as Boys/Girls Clubs that offer a safe place for teens and preteens to go after school while their parent works to stay off of welfare are among those.

When you have a woman who has a controlling abusive husband and 3 children who is trying to get away from that environment, finding a job is hard. Finding safe, reliable, affordable daycare is harder. So, if this woman finds a job making minimum wage - she is going to need two of them in order to provide those three children with a roof and food. That Boys/Girls Club may mean the difference between those children having a safe place to go or being the target of every thug on the street.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:31 pm

Lulu2;496865 wrote: But, WHOSE ethics shall we use? My brother and his same-sex partner are among the most ethical people I know. I'd love to see them be able to formalize their loving union in a state-sanctioned way.

However, thousands of "ethical" people would cheerfully deny them this very basic right which those of us who are heterosexual enjoy every day.

This is one example of what I mean....getting past the RELGIOUS descrimination would be an excellent place to begin.
Forgive me, but that is trivia to me. They're happy together. Screw anybody that doesn't like it. They don't need sanctions. Neither do heterosexual couples.

State-sanctioned marriage has nothing to do with personal responsibility, that I can tell

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:34 pm

Excuse me...I thought we were discussing ethical behavior in society. And the reasons why that might or might not be enabled. Religious interference is one factor which I see as negative.

People are getting into much more detail than I'd perceived initially in this thread. So...I'll bow out.

JacksDad · Post by **JacksDad** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:34 pm

As was said before. The ethics of common sense, I think someone wrote about common sense a few years back.

Interesting that your Christian freinds want a Christian world.

Here is one Buddhist who could care less what you are.

Just behave!

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:35 pm

LilacDragon;496868 wrote: Yes, parents are ultimately responsible for their children. But, like everything else in this world - that isn't always so cut and dried.

When it comes to balancing government budgets, it is always the social programs that are set in place to help the poor, the handicapped and children are always the first programs to be cut. While I know that you are against handouts - programs such as Boys/Girls Clubs that offer a safe place for teens and preteens to go after school while their parent works to stay off of welfare are among those.

When you have a woman who has a controlling abusive husband and 3 children who is trying to get away from that environment, finding a job is hard. Finding safe, reliable, affordable daycare is harder. So, if this woman finds a job making minimum wage - she is going to need two of them in order to provide those three children with a roof and food. That Boys/Girls Club may mean the difference between those children having a safe place to go or being the target of every thug on the street.
I didn't write anything against government programs, only against the people who take advantage of them unfairly.

JacksDad · Post by **JacksDad** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:37 pm

And I agree on the religious interference.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:38 pm

Lulu2;496872 wrote: Excuse me...I thought we were discussing ethical behavior in society. And the reasons why that might or might not be enabled. Religious interference is one factor which I see as negative.

People are getting into much more detail than I'd perceived initially in this thread. So...I'll bow out.
No don't bow out! This is important. Stand up, dammit. Explain it to me. I'm listening.

You honestly think state-sanctioned unions will strengthen society? I'm willing to listen.

JacksDad · Post by **JacksDad** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:39 pm

And I agree on the religious interference.

I am responsible for my son and myself.

I feel for my fellow man and help when I can.

Religion has gotten out of hand.

And I didn't say Muslim.

Anyone seen Dogma?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:40 pm

JacksDad;496873 wrote: As was said before. The ethics of common sense, I think someone wrote about common sense a few years back.

Interesting that your Christian freinds want a Christian world.

Here is one Buddhist who could care less what you are.

Just behave!
Common sense is rarer than diamonds.

Whose Christian friends? I want a strong society that allows and encourages self-actualization.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:42 pm

I'm not so sure what the answers are.

I am thinking of my grandmother who lost her husband when he was only 36. He left behind six kids, my mom the youngest. This was in the 1940s. My grandmother took in ironing and worked in the school cafeteria to raise her kids. She still made time to make their clothes, patch them clean house and make meals. As much as my grandmother was and is a heroine to me,

she was no Superwoman. She did raise my mom and the rest of her kids to have dignity, respect for self and others and to have strong values. My mom did that too as did my dad, but they left religion for me to find out about. So I don't feel religion *must* be a key factor in having good morals although it may help certain people. If my grandmother could handle her kids in war time alone except for a couple neighbors to occasionally watch them, why can't we do that today?

As an aside, are things really worse now than they were back then? Do we really know? There were rapes and murders and bad apples and kidnappings and poverty then too. I'm not really convinced it's worse today, just more in our face thanks to media and the web.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:42 pm

JacksDad;496878 wrote: And I agree on the religious interference.

I am responsible for my son and myself.

I feel for my fellow man and help when I can.

Religion has gotten out of hand.

And I didn't say Muslim.

Anyone seen Dogma?
I agree that people have lost focus of religion and are supporting it for its own sake. My church, right or wrong, so to speak.

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:46 pm

If you'll read what I wrote, Accountable, same-sex marriage was an EXAMPLE of religious interference in society...an unreasonable and unneccesary interference, which is allowed because large segments of our population think that religious guidance is necessary.

OK? JacksDad is right. (And yes, I saw/loved "Dogma.")

We're so far into social entitlement programs that I don't know HOW we get out. Remember "Atlas Shrugged?"

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:56 pm

RedGlitter;496880 wrote: As an aside, are things really worse now than they were back then? Do we really know? There were rapes and murders and bad apples and kidnappings and poverty then too. I'm not really convinced it's worse today, just more in our face thanks to media and the web.

I think it's worse in at least two ways: Your grandmother could generally depend on the neighborhood helping her to keep her kids in line. That is increasingly rare these days, if the correspondence I read in the teachers' forums are to be believed.

Also, assistance programs have made pockets of our society dependent on others, actually convincing our fellow human beings that they are incapable of succeeding.

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:58 pm

Precisely! Now, this is certainly NOT the only problem....but racial/gender-based entitlements have gone on for over 30 years, and they tell us the problem still exists. If they're not working--why not? Perhaps it's because people BELIEVE the problem still exists?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:01 pm

Lulu2;496891 wrote: Precisely! Now, this is certainly NOT the only problem....but racial/gender-based entitlements have gone on for over 30 years, and they tell us the problem still exists. If they're not working--why not? Perhaps it's because people BELIEVE the problem still exists?
I think so. I believe the politicians stir the pot so they can do something about it. That they keep getting re-elected is our fault.

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:06 pm

But--as long as you have PROFESSIONAL BLACK CLAQUES (Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton) you'll never find another solution to some of the problems.

Poor Bill Cosby learned quickly how vociferous they can be, when he tried to inject some logic and personal responsibility into their communities.

Meanwhile, you still find groups clamoring for REPARATIONS FOR SLAVERY!

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:10 pm

As I see it, we have two responsibilities outside of prepresenting ourselves well as individuals:

1) Try to keep politicians in line through letters, phone calls, and VOTING

2) Help parents keep their kids in line by at least keeping them informed.

The second is tough because so many parents get defensive, though.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:31 pm

JacksDad;496860 wrote: Miss USA acted like a spoiled brat doing some very immoral things and Trump kisses her on the head abd says it's ok.

Morals? Where are they?

Let's add to that.

Values and ethics.

My son is 6 years old and HE knows to open a door for a lady.

He saw my kill an innocent in a video game and got mad at me!

I'm with ya Accountable. We ALL should be accountable.

Morals, Values and Ethics are what makes a Democracy strong.
I forgot to agree with this.

I agree, JD!

JacksDad · Post by **JacksDad** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:32 pm

And the parents get defensive because they were raised with no Morals, Values or Ethics which tells them that if they could survive that way so can they're children. Brats breeding brats. Welfare babies breeding welfare babies.

Politics has become a business of who's got the best smile.

Pathetic. A pathetic society.

I wish Alannis Morisette were God and Atlas WOULD shrug.

How can we stop this. How can we turn it all around.

I was 11 years old and watched the World Trade Center being built from my backyard.

I was 40 when I watched them fall.

Pathetic.

:-5

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:35 pm

LilacDragon;496844 wrote: When I went to high school, I don't think I knew but maybe one or two people who's parents were divorced or who had two parents that worked. That is not the case now. In my son's 3rd grade class a majority of the children live with single parents or in homes where both parents work. They do not have the structure that we did when I was young.
Do parents today generally welcome information about their kids' comings and goings, or do they get defensive?

JacksDad · Post by **JacksDad** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:41 pm

I leave the garden and go to my homepage and what do I see?

Politicians Gone Wild: Scandals of 2006

Nice headline.

And where did these freaks come from?

Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics.

Like Glenn Beck says.

Get me the duct tape before my head explodes.

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:58 pm

Where did these "freaks" come from? Why, they came from an uninformed electorate. They came from a political system which allows them to hide their lack of ethics. And they cloaked themselves in religious fervor and endorsements. And why not? We have a President who does precisely the same thing.

But, you already knew that.

We need more investigative groups....we need more independent candidates and voters and we need more EDUCATED citizens.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:01 pm

This has been happening for longer than six years. You give Bush too much credit.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:02 pm

Lulu2;496914 wrote: We need more investigative groups....we need more independent candidates and voters and we need more EDUCATED citizens.
Hear Hear!! :yh_clap

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:07 pm

"You give Bush too much credit."

First...I didn't mean that in a political way....so please, don't anyone bother telling me that Clinton was as bad (because he got a blow job in the white house, etc.) I know politics in this country is corrupted!

I mentioned Bush because he's precisely the President people who elected him deserve.

This country has the best political system in the world...and it's starting to break and we need to fix it. But, in order to do that, we've really got to get back to the idea of (shades of JFK) STOP ASKING WHAT THE COUNTRY CAN DO FOR US AND START ASKING WHAT WE CAN DO FOR THE COUNTRY.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:09 pm

Lulu2;496920 wrote: "You give Bush too much credit."

First...I didn't mean that in a political way....so please, don't anyone bother telling me that Clinton was as bad (because he got a blow job in the white house, etc.) I know politics in this country is corrupted!

I mentioned Bush because he's precisely the President people who elected him deserve.

This country has the best political system in the world...and it's starting to break and we need to fix it. But, in order to do that, we've really got to get back to the idea of (shades of JFK) STOP ASKING WHAT THE COUNTRY CAN DO FOR US AND START ASKING WHAT WE CAN DO FOR THE COUNTRY.
:yh_clap *STANDING O * :yh_clap

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:13 pm

"You give Bush too much credit."

First...I didn't mean that in a political way....so please, don't anyone bother telling me that Clinton was as bad (because he got a blow job in the white house, etc.) I know politics in this country is corrupted!

I mentioned Bush because he's precisely the President people who elected him deserve.

This country has the best political system in the world...and it's starting to break and we need to fix it. But, in order to do that, we've really got to get back to the idea of (shades of JFK) STOP ASKING WHAT THE COUNTRY CAN DO FOR US AND START ASKING WHAT WE CAN DO FOR THE COUNTRY.

A viable Peace Corps, an EARNED scholarship program for college education and serious immigration reform will help with a lot of this mess. Frankly, I'm tired of contributing to the education of illegals when "entitlement" programs demand spaces in schools for Hispanics. And frankly, I'm tired of pouring tax dollars into free medical care for people who've never paid into the process.

And, as long as we're venting, I'm tired of an electorate which turns out in the ten/twenty/thirty percentages to vote and then clamors because they don't like the results!

JacksDad · Post by **JacksDad** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:14 pm

Oh. I'll join in that.

:yh_clap *STANDING O * :yh_clap

I call them freaks because that used to US!

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:17 pm

(WOW...a standing "O"?.....

) :p

Sorry...I added on that last part....but it's FERVENT! And I MEAN IT!

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:21 pm

But how do we change course? How do we convince people that being politically short-sighted is dangerous and irresponsible?

JacksDad · Post by **JacksDad** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:25 pm

I've asked that as well but I think

"A viable Peace Corps, an EARNED scholarship program for college education and serious immigration reform will help with a lot of this mess."

is a good start.

But how do we even get that?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:28 pm

JacksDad;496947 wrote: I've asked that as well but I think

"A viable Peace Corps, an EARNED scholarship program for college education and serious immigration reform will help with a lot of this mess."

is a good start.

But how do we even get that?
Finding the right politicians and actively campaigning for them? It's a start.

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:30 pm

We need some "newbies" in politics. I have enormous hopes for Barack Obama. He's new and clean and smart. I'd like to see him sponsor some groups to oversee the political process. How to do that? I don't know--but I believe it could be done by someone without "obligations."

What I'd like to see is someone like him sponsor legislation to make voting MANDATORY! Like the Australian system...it'd require that you vote or you pay a fine.

Secondly, we'd make CIVICS mandatory to graduate in US schools. (See recent news on Richard Dreyfuss's "push." It's a fine idea.)

Thirdly, I'd like to see the government undertake a series of public service announcements/films to really educate us in a way many of us were not....we have NO IDEA these days how government is run. It'd be good if we did.

Finally, even though NO HUMAN SYSTEM WILL EVER BE PERFECT, we all need to volunteer to support our systems in any way we can. Anyone retired can tutor children in a Head Start program....or volunteer at a child care facility....or pick up trash or clean a beach or do SOMETHING to make this a better country.

(Shall I step off the box now, Accountable?)

JacksDad · Post by **JacksDad** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:32 pm

Accountable;496949 wrote: Finding the right politicians and actively campaigning for them? It's a start.

C'mon Acct.

Maybe I'll just click my heels together and say, "There's no place like 1961."