Uncovered Meat....THIS is useful....

[Lulu2]

++++++++++++ From Australia.

THE nation's most senior Muslim cleric has blamed immodestly dressed women who don't wear Islamic headdress for being preyed on by men and likened them to abandoned "meat" that attracts voracious animals. In a Ramadan sermon that has outraged Muslim women leaders, Sydney-based Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali also alluded to the infamous Sydney gang rapes, suggesting the attackers were not entirely to blame.

While not specifically referring to the rapes, brutal attacks on four women for which a group of young Lebanese men received long jail sentences, Sheik Hilali said there were women who "sway suggestively" and wore make-up and immodest dress ... "and then you get a judge without mercy (rahma) and gives you 65 years".

"But the problem, but the problem all began with who?" he asked. The leader of the 2000 rapes in Sydney's southwest, Bilal Skaf, a Muslim, was initially sentenced to 55 years' jail, but later had the sentence reduced on appeal.

In the religious address on adultery to about 500 worshippers in Sydney last month, Sheik Hilali said: "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?

"The uncovered meat is the problem."

The sheik then said: "If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred."

He said women were "weapons" used by "Satan" to control men.

"It is said in the state of zina (adultery), the responsibility falls 90 per cent of the time on the woman. Why? Because she possesses the weapon of enticement (igraa)."

Muslim community leaders were yesterday outraged and offended by Sheik Hilali's remarks, insisting the cleric was no longer worthy of his title as Australia's mufti.

Young Muslim adviser Iktimal Hage-Ali - who does not wear a hijab - said the Islamic headdress was not a "tool" worn to prevent rape and sexual harassment. "It's a symbol that readily identifies you as being Muslim, but just because you don't wear the headscarf doesn't mean that you're considered fresh meat for sale," the former member of John Howard's Muslim advisory board told The Australian. "The onus should not be on the female to not attract attention, it should be on males to learn how to control themselves."

Australia's most prominent female Muslim leader, Aziza Abdel-Halim, said the hijab did not "detract or add to a person's moral standards", while Islamic Council of Victoria spokesman Waleed Ali said it was "ignorant and naive" for anyone to believe that a hijab could stop sexual assault.

"Anyone who is foolish enough to believe that there is a relationship between rape or unwelcome sexual interference and the failure to wear a hijab, clearly has no understanding of the nature of sexual crime," he said.

Ms Hage-Ali said she was "disgusted and offended" by Shiek Hilali's comments. "I find it very offensive that a man who considers himself as a mufti, a leader of Australia's Muslims, can give comment that lacks intelligence and common sense."

Yesterday, the mufti defended the sermon about "adultery and theft", a recorded copy of which has been obtained and translated by The Australian.

Sheik Hilali said he only meant to refer to prostitutes as "meat" and not any scantily dressed woman with no hijab, despite him not mentioning the word prostitute during the 17-minute talk.

He told The Australian the message he intended to convey was: "If a woman who shows herself off, she is to blame ... but a man should be able to control himself". He said if a woman is "covered and respectful" she "demands respect from a man". "But when she is cheap, she throws herself at the man and cheapens herself."

Sheik Hilali also insisted his references to the Sydney gang rapes were to illustrate that Skaf was guilty and worthy of receiving such a harsh sentence.

Waleed Ali said Sheik Hilali was "normalising immoral sexual behaviour" by comparing women to meat and men to animals and entirely blaming women for being victims.

"It's basically saying that the immoral response of men to women who are not fully covered is as natural and as inevitable as the response of an animal tempted by food," he said.

"But (unlike animals) men are people who have moral responsibilities and the capability in engaging in moral action."

Revelation of the mufti's comments comes after he criticised Mr Howard last month in The Australian for saying a minority of migrant men mistreated their women. Sheik Hilali said such a minority was found in all faiths. "Those who don't respect their women are not true Muslims."

"There's a small percentage found among all religions, but we don't recognise ours as Muslims."

Aziza Abdel-Halim said Sheik Hilali's remarks during Ramadan were inaccurate and upsetting to the Muslim community.

"They are below and beyond any comment (and) do not deserve any."



+++++++++++++++++++ Good grief! What's been the reaction in Australia, friends?

[chonsigirl]

He brain was uncovered at birth, what a mean and cruel thing to even suggest.

[YZGI]

The most amazing thing about this is that there are others out there that believe the same.

[Lulu2]

When I went to Egypt, I traveled with another woman and three men. Along the way, I met a young woman who'd been born in Italy and lived most of her life in Egypt. She told me it was good that we were traveling with men becuase otherwise, the Egyptians would have assumed we were whores.

We dressed modestly and behaved appropriately...but....traveling alone, we'd've been WHORES.

[DesignerGal]

Thats just a dumb ass man for ya.

[AussiePam]

As you'd expect, this is getting a lot of 'coverage' in Australia.

This particular bloke is an Australian citizen - if you can believe that. He has only a few words of English (he's been an Aussie citizen for 10 years) and preaches in Egyptian or Arabic. He has appointed himself Chief Mufti - muslim spiritual leader - of Australia and region.

Australia has recently seen a number of particularly horrible rapes of young girls- mainly in Sydney - by gangs of men of middle eastern descent. It's no wonder when their religious leaders and teachers are feeding them such twisted misogynistic crap.

HOWEVER

One really good thing is coming out of the kerfuffle. One of the greatest criticisms of the Muslim community here in Australia, and in other countries I think too - is that the great majority of good, upright, decent muslims don't stand up and publicly condemn the evil minority.

In this case they ARE speaking out. Fine letters to newspapers by Muslim men who do not support Hilaly's views on women. Groups of muslim business women from varied backgrounds giving interviews for the first time. Muslim scholars and lawyers denouncing Hilaly's views as un-islamic.

Britain is in the throes of a debate which I suppose comes down to integration v apartness... finding a balance. I think the same is happening here. A couple of decades ago multiculturalism was the latest limpwristed buzzword. Please migrate to Australia but you can stay completely Turkish / Chilean / whatever.. no need to learn English even. BIG MISTAKE. Most Aussies have migrant backgrounds. It's great to remember your roots and retain some of those old flavours. BUT - this is a lucky country. It's a privilege to be an Aussie. And migrants from the middle east, or from anywhere else, need to remember that, become full members of the Australian community, embrace Australian values and abide by Australian laws.

And all this before I've had me Saturday morning coffee.

[Lulu2]

Sorry, AussieP! I posted this thinking we'd have the gift if your local insight. PLEASE tell us the "moderate Muslim" community is speaking loudly and LONGLY against this jerk!

And I'd hope local civics classes are using it as a teaching lesson for debates....

[AussiePam]

Lulu2;442769 wrote: Sorry, AussieP! I posted this thinking we'd have the gift if your local insight. PLEASE tell us the "moderate Muslim" community is speaking loudly and LONGLY against this jerk!

And I'd hope local civics classes are using it as a teaching lesson for debates....


I'm glad you raised this, Lulu. I was toying with the idea of doing the same.

The Sheik has his supporters. And they are making quite loud noises. But the Muslim community majority are being heard too. Louder and very clear. Hilaly is "taking a break" from his preaching work at the main Sydney mosque and having a little holiday. I think he's making a pilgrimage to Mecca too. The mosque board of directors didn't sack him though (many support him).

Hilaly has quite a history here. He has previously spoken in support of suicide bombers, and described Messrs Bush, Blair and Howard as the Axis of Evil. As he did in this latest instance - which is a matter of public record - he claims he has been misquoted, misunderstood. Yeah, right.

I think Australia is only just coming to the idea that some civics classes might be a good thing. SHEESH.

One thing that has always impressed me in America. No matter what a person's background, or world view - come 4 July, everyone is flying the flag and proudly standing up with their hands on their hearts. Australians are rather belatedly learning to show and expect similar pride and loyalty.

Advance Australia Fair!!!

Attached files

[Lulu2]

I thought you might be interested to see this editorial, which ran in The Jordan Times, while I was there.

"Unwarranted, uncouth, irreverent

Sheikh Tajidin Al Hilali, imam in Sydney, Australia, did Islam an immense disservice and irreparable harm when he compared women not wearing the hijab to uncovered meat that invites rape.

Hilali is considering resigning after the uproar his statement caused among non-Muslims across the globe and among many enlightened Muslims in Australia and elsewhere.

Relinquishing his post would be the right decision, but it does not go far enough to repair the damage to the image of Islam. Neither is it enough to appease those repulsed by his unholy comments. They do not become any human being worth being called that, and are even more revolting from a man of religion, a teacher who should not condone immoral acts, period.

Historically, the hijab is a relic of distant times, preceding Islam. There is no unanimity among Muslims concerning the religious justification for the kind of hijab that has become common among many women in Islamic countries. Would it not be a good idea to have this subject examined by enlightened Muslim scholars so that women know what they may wear without fear of insult or abuse?

Thinking of women in terms of meat is abhorrent. It is a despicable insult to universal values and requires quick rebuttal and rejection from all true Muslims who value their religion.

What one wears should be a matter of personal choice and belief; it should not be imposed or justified by dubious religious grounds.

Women are our mothers, sisters, daughters and not sex objects that can be wantonly accused of inviting sexual violation simply because their hair and ears show in public places.

Any man who respects himself has respect for women. After centuries of repression, they still proved to be mens' intellectual peers, emotionally superior and economically, the driving force behind many a world economy.

But then, no man of intellect who respects himself should have to be told that."

[AussiePam]

Diuretic, Lulu !!!! I read what you both said with great interest. For the content, and for the reassurance that it is possible to take part in an ongoing discussion with grace, non personal point scoring, no hidden linguistic put downs etc etc.

I read the other day, Diuretic, that there is some possible trouble brewing at Cronulla again.. is this a media beatup? And that a bunch of stupid white supremacists were considering marching on Hilaly clad in bikinis.. even the men.. GEESCH... That's the absolute last thing we need... especially when some parts of the muslim community are expressing the sort of views Lulu noted.

I've mentioned my gym class before. It's a women's only gym and there are quite a few muslim women there, from all sorts of backgrounds. My own particular friend wears a veil even in aerobics classes. Says she doesn't have to and it's not for 'religious' reasons. Just how she was brought up and she feels kind of undressed without it, a bit like I feel without my watch. Most of the other women don't, and in fact, don't stand out in any way.

[Galbally]

I think this is very interesting, and you have been debating it quite well I think, it was good to hear that editorial from Jordan as well as its easy to forget in the current climate that Islam is as venerable and as moral and spiritual relgion as any other, its the current wave of extremely conservative wahhabists, intolerant immams, violent militants, and anti-western jihaddists that are hijacking the intellectual discourse of the Muslim world and trying to forment this big confrontation between civilizations that they see as being in their benefit, there are lots of other more moderate and tolerant opinions within Islamic discourse that need to be more assertive now to combat the more dangerous ideas of the militants and bigots in the muslim world, who would have us all at each others throats, wait we already are, oh dear? :-2 .

[Galbally]

Diuretic;472377 wrote: Galbally I think we in Australia are suffering from a lack of knowledge about the range of thinking in Islam, we see it as a single bloc as it were and it seems to me that like any other religion and as you point out, it's just not so.

It's a bit like calling Buddhism a single religion (allowing for a moment it is a religion) and ignoring the differences between Mahayana and Theravada and how Buddhism is practised in various countries and how that practice is influenced by culture.

So your point about moderate Islam and more reactionary Islam is well made (I hope I'm not misrepresenting it).

I also think that in the West we - with some exceptions - tend to have secular politics while in countries where Islam is the dominant religion there tends to be more of a mix of religion and politics.

But even then that's a generalisation and we have countries such as Turkey where although there are attempts to meld religion and politics, the military is certainly going to protect the secular constitution of the republic.

Either way we all need a bit more critical thinking about the issues and ease off the stereotyping.


I think that we all need to gain a bit more knowledge of each other, and in the muslim world as well they really need to gain a better, less conflictual understanding of christians and the west, which for the last 30 years has born the brunt of relentless propaganda that portrays the west (and particularly the U.S.) as the source of all ills and problems of the middle east and a general all round "evil" place which is of course nonsense. This tidal wave of hate has to be tackled by both sides and that involves better policies, more dialog, and more tolerance its hard to achieve this in the current climate, but it has to be attempted at least.

[Nomad]

women not wearing the hijab to uncovered meat that invites rape.







This statement in itself is a huge reminder of the types of minds were trying to cope with. Antiquated and hell bent on revisiting the dark ages. You cant reason with such a grave disorder of the mind. Their thinking is impaired beyond any measure I can equate it to. Lost cause.

Its also an obvious indication of the mental state of the men that inhabit these beliefs. It says so much more about their own unstable condition than it does about the women they detest.

[Lulu2]

Here's another editorial I ripped from a Jordanian magazine "Jordan Business." Interestingly, the editorial staff seems to be overwhelmingly female (although I'm basing that on the names, which isn't always the most accurate thing to do.)

"A Terrible Waste

A key date in Arab feminism is 1899, when an Egyptian jurist, a man named Qasim Amin, wrote a book called "The Liberation of Women." Using Islamic teachings, Mr. Amin argued that women's liberation was a patriotic duty that would serve all Egypt, not just its females.

"The evidence of history confirms and demonstrates that the status of women is inseparably tied to the status of a nation," he wrote. In 1901 he published "The New Woman," a considerably more radical volume that drew on Western social philosophy.

"Man," Mr. Amin wrote, "treated woman like a slave and as though she was not capable of moral or intellectual development."

What has happened to Arab women since then? There is no doubt that there have been major health and educational advances, and many women continue to enter the workforce. But there are still major setbacks: although women's literacy rates have trebled in the past 30 years, one in every two Arab women is still illiterate. Their patricipation in their countries' political and economic life is the lowest in the world.

Politically, women have the right to vote and stand for election in most countries, but that does not mean they are fully participating in political life. And there are fears that democracy may even set back their gains in some countries as hardline Islamist groups enter parliament, disregarding rights granted to women within the religion. Womens's rights have become a bone of contention, the bargaining chip, when Islamic parties are jockeying for power with secular parties or governments.

In nearly all Arab countries, women suffer from unequal citizenship and legal entitlements. The UNDP's "gender-empowerment measure" shows Arabs near the bottom (according to this measure, Sub-Saharan Africa ranks even worse.) Yes, there has been much progress, especially in some countries, including Jordan, but the pace is far too slow.

This month, "Jordan Business" decided to profile business luminaries across the Arab World. They inspire and give hope that women can reach their full potential, even in the most restricted environments, and in whatever field they choose.

However, most of them stress that without political reform, the majority of women will continue to live as second-class citizens. If the Arab World ever wants to catch up with the rest of the world, be it politically or economically, we need to see more women at the helm."

(This editor's note was written by Ghadeer Taher, Editor-in-Chief. I wish Ms. Taher good luck in her business endeavor and personal safety in a part of the world where her ideas are considered blasphemy. The figures on female literacy in the Arab world are horrifying! :-5 )

[DesignerGal]

So yesterday, the owner of my company (which has NO sales right now) says, "if it were easy, women and children could do it". He was referring to selling our product. I hate this place.

[Lulu2]

ARRRRGH! And he's still alive? You're a good woman, DG!

[pantsonfire321@aol.com]

AussiePam;442711 wrote: As you'd expect, this is getting a lot of 'coverage' in Australia.

This particular bloke is an Australian citizen - if you can believe that. He has only a few words of English (he's been an Aussie citizen for 10 years) and preaches in Egyptian or Arabic. He has appointed himself Chief Mufti - muslim spiritual leader - of Australia and region.

Australia has recently seen a number of particularly horrible rapes of young girls- mainly in Sydney - by gangs of men of middle eastern descent. It's no wonder when their religious leaders and teachers are feeding them such twisted misogynistic crap.

HOWEVER

One really good thing is coming out of the kerfuffle. One of the greatest criticisms of the Muslim community here in Australia, and in other countries I think too - is that the great majority of good, upright, decent muslims don't stand up and publicly condemn the evil minority.

In this case they ARE speaking out. Fine letters to newspapers by Muslim men who do not support Hilaly's views on women. Groups of muslim business women from varied backgrounds giving interviews for the first time. Muslim scholars and lawyers denouncing Hilaly's views as un-islamic.

Britain is in the throes of a debate which I suppose comes down to integration v apartness... finding a balance. I think the same is happening here. A couple of decades ago multiculturalism was the latest limpwristed buzzword. Please migrate to Australia but you can stay completely Turkish / Chilean / whatever.. no need to learn English even. BIG MISTAKE. Most Aussies have migrant backgrounds. It's great to remember your roots and retain some of those old flavours. BUT - this is a lucky country. It's a privilege to be an Aussie. And migrants from the middle east, or from anywhere else, need to remember that, become full members of the Australian community, embrace Australian values and abide by Australian laws.

And all this before I've had me Saturday morning coffee.


I wish it was more like that here .

[guppy]

i run a business that is typically thought of as a mans. i run into the male attitude all the time. i have been in board meetings where some new guy will start out with "what is a little lady like you doing here" he doesn't keep that attitude long.

[AussiePam]

Clashes are inevitable where backward-looking radical Islam meets anything else - but there's other stuff happening here in Australia, or at least in the bits of it I wander in. A lot of Aussies - at all levels - seem to be making that extra effort now to ensure the moderate muslim majority of our brothers and sisters are (and feel they are) included in our Australian community. Sure, they are expected to make an effort too, and mostly, I think they do. In any society there is always going to be a them and us. The majority of muslims should be in the us, and the twisted, bigoted, hateriddled minority along with the white supremacist thugs should be the them.