Muslims say the darndest things

[Atsila]

This is a short list of things muslims say vs. what they actually do. I use it often as a teaching tool.




MUSLIMS SAY THE DARNDEST THINGS

By Ayesha Ahmed

Recite violent quranic ayas about slaying infidels, massacring unbelievers, capturing booty, and beheading renegades but insist that islam is a “religion of peace”.

Recite quranic ayas about polygamy, capturing and enslaving women, sex with captured women and slave girls, beating and changing wives, and covering them in burqas but insist that islam gives a very priviledged position to women.

Quote hadiths about Mohammed’s surprise raids, bloody wars, merciless massacres, and brutal assassinations but insist he came as a mercy for all human beings from God.

Insist that Muhammad 's actions which included lying, raping, torturing, killing, robbing polygamy, and pedophilia, can't be judged by today's human rights standards, while at the same time, insist that he is the perfect " role model for all mankind" today.

Proudly say how Mohammed captured whole of Arabia in 10 years and his followers captured Spain to India in 100 years, through bloody invasions, but insist that islam allows fighting for defense only.

Insist that jihad only means personal fight for self improvement while the bloodiest terrorist organization whose off shoot is AlQueda is called “Islamic Jihad”.

Insist that Quran was written in the context of 7th century conditions but also insist that the Quran is a book of guidance "for all times and all people."

Insist that all the scientific inventions were foretold in Quran but no muslim ever invented anything from it.

Insist that Muslims should enjoy all human rights and make infinite number of mosques in western countries but ban preaching of any other religion in their own countries.

Insist that Islam is against slavery and then demonstrate how humanely Muhammad treated his slaves as proof of it.

Insist that Islamic system is the best in the world yet muslim countries are sinking deeper in poverty and soon will face massive starvation.

Insist on the evils of the western culture and virtues of islam and sharia laws but do everything possible to escape from the Islamic countries and sharia laws.

Insist that quran is uncorrupted because it is Allah’s book and he protected it while saying that the bible, Allah’s earlier book, was corrupted by Christians.

Insist that bible is corrupted and unreliable but then try to prove Mohammed’s prophethood and truth of islam by referring to the same corrupted bible.

http://www.islamreview.com/articles/muslimssay.shtml

[koan]

Atsila, it sure takes a lot of energy to hate. You might want to rethink things a little.

[oh no u didnt!!]

calm down astila and dont bash islam,

christans ,jews and every body say they darnest things .

can u tell me were in the quran it says that u can beat ur wife ,commit rape and all these ridicilous accusations???

also the quran says that in a battle you arent allowed to fight any one thats not on the battle feild,children ,women,and anyone that is worshipping in a temple ,church ..... so islam has respect to other religions

[oh no u didnt!!]

[Welcome to FG.]

thank you .

i dont think its simple to seperate culture from religion, see when someone says [muslim]they usually are talking about the religion.

as for culture muslims come from diffrent cultures, some are arabs like[mohammed the prophet]others are from africa such as sudan ,somal. some are from malysia ,andonisa.every country has its own culture and traditions.

i want to ask ; if you were to see a women in the street wearing a headscarf[hijab],and be really honest wouldnt u right away label her as muslim and then the word terrorist comes to mind?? the same thing when u see a man with a beard and looks arab?? tell me what u think, id really like to see it from another opinion.

[RedGlitter]

I see a lot of overall truth in the OP.

[Galbally]

I don't have a problem with Islam or Muslims, unless they have a problem with me or my people, if they do, then we have a problem. Simple as. In my own experience most Muslims I have met are decent enough people, a little prickly about their beliefs, but what highly religious people aren't. The young men in Islam, the unmarried ones, them I have had some bad experiences with, I don't like their attitudes very much, its not to do with religion, its their arrogance, inferiority/superiority complex and utter sexism, just telling it like it is. This isn't the case with the older men, who are more mature and nicer in general. The Muslim women seem I've met pretty nice, (I've never had a Muslim girlfriend so I don't know what thats like) though the majority seem to be a little meek and shy, though not all by any means.

[Marie5656]

Diuretic;517260 wrote: It's always occurred to me that in the west no-one gave a rat's about Islam and Muslims until 9/11. Now we're all over them.




I agree with you, but unfortunatly this is not new behavior on our part. Remember after WWII, when the Japanese-Americans were put in the interrment camps "for thier own protection"? I had a college professor whose family was in one. He did not really remember alot about the experience, as he was only 4 or 5..but still.

[Hugh Janus]

Read the link, from a respected UK newspaper...



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... rtComments

[Bill Sikes]

Hugh Janus;517436 wrote: Read the link, from a respected UK newspaper...



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... rtComments


I hope that this "respected UK newspaper" (snort!) has reported these findings

of criminal activity to the police, and handed over their evidence....

[Lulu2]

If the purpose of this thread is to discuss hypocritical behavior among many Muslims...it's right on target! "Political correctness" demands that we not criticize someone's religion, doesn't it?...even if they speak from both sides of their mouth and potentially advocate violent overthrow of all we hold dear.

Read Oriana Fallaci's passionate essays on the risks of "political correctness" in Europe. "The Rage and the Pride" and "The Force of Reason" are blistering indictments, not only of the hypocritical Muslims but of those who ignore the risks.

Naturally, certain Islamic factions issued a death mandate against her.

[Lulu2]

Pay attention to Muslim "freedom"....from today's L.A. Times

In Morocco, a sad joke about press freedom

BY FADOUA BENAICH AND JESSE SAGE

January 12, 2007



THE ONLY REAL DANGER to a political joke in the United States is missing your mark. Just ask John Kerry.

Although Americans can make light of their leaders, their enemies and even the Iraq war, a fundamental challenge to freedom of expression is happening just off our radar screen in Morocco. There, two of the country's leading journalists face five-year prison sentences, crippling fines and/or being banned from publication, all for an article about political humor.

Driss Ksikes is the editor of Nichane, a weekly magazine published in Morocco's local drija Arabic dialect. The magazine's name means "direct," and it launched in September with a goal of bringing a fresh perspective to a country still emerging from decades of brutal civil rights repression under King Hassan II, who died in 1999.

In a special edition of Nichane in early December, Ksikes published an insightful cover story by up-and-coming writer Sanae Al Aji on humor in Morocco. The piece, entitled, "How Moroccans Laugh at Religion, Sex and Politics," cataloged popular Moroccan jokes and invited social critics to analyze the punch lines. As humor typically touches on social taboos, the article discussed jokes mocking the king, Islamist imams and attitudes toward women.

This is an election year in Morocco, and both the monarchy and the opposition Islamist parties seized on the opportunity to make an example of Nichane. Islamist websites branded the magazine worse than any Danish publication and the editors got death threats. Prime Minister Driss Jettou issued an injunction banning Nichane from newsstands and shutting down its website. Declaring the magazine a threat to the "fundamental values of Moroccan society," prosecutors have now put Ksikes and Al Aji on trial in a Casablanca court for "damaging the Islamic religion, lacking proper respect for the king and publishing of writings contrary to public morals." A verdict is expected today.

Morocco had been a symbol of hope for reform in the Middle East in recent years. His father stifled public discourse and tortured opponents for decades, but King Muhammad VI has enhanced civil liberties, particularly for women. That Al Aji has become the first female reporter to face prison time in Morocco is a perverse sign of progress in gender equality.

Still, the door opened to a more vibrant public discourse. In 2005, Nichane's parent publication -- the French weekly TelQuel, aimed at the country's francophone elite -- ran a cover expose on the king's salary. Other TelQuel issues explored homosexuality and drug use in Morocco. The country got its first journalism school, and many of its top graduates work for Nichane. Now that staff is waiting to hear the verdict, and learn the fate of the magazine.

The banning of Nichane and the sentence hanging over Ksikes and Al Aji painfully illustrate the fragility of newfound freedoms. Across North Africa and the Middle East, dictators and Islamist political forces have been emboldened. The movement toward greater freedom that seemed unstoppable a few years ago is now being smothered.

Americans should see the fate of Nichane as a warning. The magazine offered a model of investigative journalism and open inquiry for the rest of the region. After all, the reporters did not invent the jokes in the "offending" article, but rather dissected popular humor to examine Moroccan society. This is the kind of critical journalism -- probing, relevant and with popular appeal -- needed in the Arab and Muslim world.

The Moroccan government must know that the world is watching. Freedom of expression and freedom of the press are not liberties to be revoked at will. They are fundamental building blocks of a free society. Although Nichane's cover story used jokes as a bellwether of Moroccan society, the prosecution of the magazine's staff is a sad joke about where social reform in the Middle East may be headed.

FADOUA BENAICH is a Moroccan journalist based in Washington, D.C. JESSE SAGE directs the HAMSA project of the American Islamic Congress.

[Galbally]

I think to be honest Lulu, ordinary Europeans in all countries are fast running out of tolerance for these xenophobic, religious/fascist, sexist twerps, and their grandiose threats against us all, but its true that people are conflicted because of history, race, our general "lets be decent" type attitude, but that tolerance won't last forever if these keeps on and on and thats a fact. I think this situation is going to get a lot worse before it gets any better, and it is worrying, but you do have to prepared to face up to some unpleasant realities about people sometimes, and this is certainly one of those times.

[Lulu2]

If attitudes are changing, 'BallyBob, I'm glad. Oriana Fallaci was terrified that "political correctness" would enable the downfall of European culture. I understand her point.

I've read that France will actually BE inhabited by more Muslims than anyone else, if present levels of immigration continue for the next decades. Can you imagine what might happen to the glorious museums, cathedrals, nude paintings, etc, in a Muslim-controlled world?

Think on that.

[Galbally]

Lulu2;517609 wrote: If attitudes are changing, 'BallyBob, I'm glad. Oriana Fallaci was terrified that "political correctness" would enable the downfall of European culture. I understand her point.

I've read that France will actually BE inhabited by more Muslims than anyone else, if present levels of immigration continue for the next decades. Can you imagine what might happen to the glorious museums, cathedrals, nude paintings, etc, in a Muslim-controlled world?

Think on that.


I would remind you Lu, that Europeans have been resisting the spread of Islamic rule into its own cultural sphere since the battle of Poiters in 732 AD. Also that 95 percent of Europe's population of 650 million people are not Muslims, but Europeans, and that we are certainly becomming aware of this idea that certain very militant and violent Islamic intellectuals have, in that they are going to use the very small minority of Islamic people within Europe (without asking their consent or approval of course) as a "stalking horse" to overthrow through fear and intimidation a part of the world (and a far older civilization), that the Islamic powers that be could never overcome by force and were eventually humiliated by in utter defeat, we are well aware of that, as are they. (So are the Chinese, and the Indians BTW). Its also true that with the ascendency of European culture and power over the world from about 1500 AD, we had, in a way, forgotten the intellectual conflict that has been raging between Europe and the near east for a thousand years, they have never forgotten (or it seems forgiven) us. However, now we are remembering again, I think these deluded people will come to regret their arrogance and folly in time, and they will find us not so weak, scared, or decadent as they like to believe. It may be taking us some time to reajust to this latest twist in a millenia long struggle, but we will, as we always have.













.

[Lulu2]

" I think these deluded people will come to regret their arrogance and folly in time, and they will find us not so weak, scared, or decadent as they like to believe. It may be taking us some time to reajust to this latest twist in a millenia long struggle, but we will, as we always have."

GOOD! (Have you read the Fallaci books, 'BBob? I recommend them.)

[Saffron]

Well, I don't read the Quran. I actually made friends with a Muslim guy online, recently he got married and his wife is pregnant now. He is the nicest guy. REally. Every Muslim I've met has been a really nice person. I met an Egyptian Muslim girl at the shelter that I recently escaped from. She wore the head covering and she was very very thin. Her husband and she were separated and he took her children. She was very young too. They'd migrated here from Egypt and her husband could not handle the "tempations" of America, She said this. So he took up with other women. Anyway, she ended up at a Christian church and then she even read from the bible in the bible study. She always wanted to talk to me about work and how I got my jobs and wanted a job. So I gave her the number of the agency. She was also really curious about what I was studying in school. I liked her a lot. She seemed as if she had a lot of ......I don't know what it was, but it was something I didn't have. Maybe it was pride. I guess she'd never ben allowed to work or get an education. Just to have babies. I remember thinking how could her husband throw her out, she was homeless. Then the next day a friend of hers picked her up and she got out of the shelter. (I should have asked her to take me with her).

[Lulu2]

Indeed...because the tyranny of which you speak does mean the end of thousands of years of European culture. Science, art...all gone.

[Lulu2]

Look what just arrived in my email. Interesting!

What Thomas Jefferson learned from the Muslim book of jihad

By Ted Sampley

U.S. Veteran Dispatch

January 2007

Democrat Keith Ellison is now officially the first Muslim United States congressman. True to his pledge, he placed his hand on the Quran, the Muslim

book of jihad and pledged his allegiance to the United States during his

ceremonial swearing-in.

Capitol Hill staff said Ellison's swearing-in photo opportunity drew more media than they had ever seen in the history of the U.S. House. Ellison represents the 5th Congressional District of Minnesota.

The Quran Ellison used was no ordinary book. It once belonged to Thomas

Jefferson, third president of the United States and one of America's founding fathers. Ellison borrowed it from the Rare Book Section of the Library of Congress. It was one of the 6,500 Jefferson books archived in the library.

Ellison, who was born in Detroit and converted to Islam while in college, said he chose to use Jefferson's Quran because it showed that "a visionary like Jefferson" believed that wisdom could be gleaned from many sources.

There is no doubt Ellison was right about Jefferson believing wisdom could be "gleaned" from the Muslim Quran. At the time Jefferson owned the book, he

needed to know everything possible about Muslims because he was about to

advocate war against the Islamic "Barbary" states of Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Tripoli.

Ellison's use of Jefferson's Quran as a prop illuminates a subject once

well-known in the history of the United States, but, which today, is mostly

forgotten - the Muslim pirate slavers who over many centuries enslaved

millions of Africans and tens of thousands of Christian Europeans and Americans in the Islamic "Barbary" states.

Over the course of 10 centuries, Muslim pirates cruised the African and

Mediterranean coastline, pillaging villages and seizing slaves.

The taking of slaves in pre-dawn raids on unsuspecting coastal villages had a high casualty rate. It was typical of Muslim raiders to kill off as many of the "non-Muslim" older men and women as possible so the preferred "booty" of only young women and children could be collected.

Young non-Muslim women were targeted because of their value as concubines in

Islamic markets. Islamic law provides for the sexual interests of Muslim men by allowing them to take as many as four wives at one time and to have as many concubines as their fortunes allow.

Boys, as young as 9 or 10 years old, were often mutilated to create eunuchs

who would bring higher prices in the slave markets of the Middle East. Muslim slave traders created "eunuch stations" along major African slave routes so the necessary surgery could be performed. It was estimated that only a small number of the boys subjected to the mutilation survived after the surgery.

When American colonists rebelled against British rule in 1776, American

merchant ships lost Royal Navy protection. With no American Navy for

protection, American ships were attacked and their Christian crews enslaved

by Muslim pirates operating under the control of the "Dey of Algiers"--an

Islamist warlord ruling Algeria.

Because American commerce in the Mediterranean was being destroyed by the

pirates, the Continental Congress agreed in 1784 to negotiate treaties with

the four Barbary States. Congress appointed a special commission consisting

of John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin, to oversee the

negotiations.

Lacking the ability to protect its merchant ships in the Mediterranean, the

new America government tried to appease the Muslim slavers by agreeing to

pay tribute and ransoms in order to retrieve seized American ships and buy

the freedom of enslaved sailors.

Adams argued in favor of paying tribute as the cheapest way to get American

commerce in the Mediterranean moving again. Jefferson was opposed. He

believed there would be no end to the demands for tribute and wanted matters

settled "through the medium of war." He proposed a league of trading nations

to force an end to Muslim piracy.

In 1786, Jefferson, then the American ambassador to France, and Adams, then

the American ambassador to Britain, met in London with Sidi Haji Abdul

Rahman Adja, the "Dey of Algiers" ambassador to Britain.

The Americans wanted to negotiate a peace treaty based on Congress' vote to

appease.

During the meeting Jefferson and Adams asked the Dey's ambassador why

Muslims held so much hostility towards America, a nation with which they had

no previous contacts.

In a later meeting with the American Congress, the two future presidents

reported that Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja had answered that Islam

"was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their

Quran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority

were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them

wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as

Prisoners, and that every Musselman (Muslim) who should be slain in Battle

was sure to go to Paradise."

For the following 15 years, the American government paid the Muslims millions of dollars for the safe passage of American ships or the return of American hostages. The payments in ransom and tribute amounted to 20 percent of United States government annual revenues in 1800.

Not long after Jefferson's inauguration as president in 1801, he dispatched a group of frigates to defend American interests in the Mediterranean, and

informed Congress.

Declaring that America was going to spend "millions for defense but not one

cent for tribute," Jefferson pressed the issue by deploying American Marines

and many of America's best warships to the Muslim Barbary Coast.

The USS Constitution, USS Constellation, USS Philadelphia, USS Chesapeake,

USS Argus, USS Syren and USS Intrepid all saw action.

In 1805, American Marines marched across the dessert from Egypt into

Tripolitania, forcing the surrender of Tripoli and the freeing of all American slaves.

During the Jefferson administration, the Muslim Barbary States, crumbling as

a result of intense American naval bombardment and on shore raids by Marines, finally officially agreed to abandon slavery and piracy.

Jefferson's victory over the Muslims lives on today in the Marine Hymn, with the line, "From the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli, we will fight our country's battles on the land as on the sea."

It wasn't until 1815 that the problem was fully settled by the total defeat of all the Muslim slave trading pirates.

Jefferson had been right. The "medium of war" was the only way to put and

end to the Muslim problem. Mr. Ellison was right about Jefferson. He was a

"visionary" wise enough to read and learn about the enemy from their own

Muslim book of jihad.

[Galbally]

Lulu2;518146 wrote: Indeed...because the tyranny of which you speak does mean the end of thousands of years of European culture. Science, art...all gone.


European civilization has been around for 2,800 years as you say lu, it survived the dark ages, the black death, the Mongols, the Moors, the Ottomans, the Nazi's, and the Soviets, two world wars and 70 million dead, its not going to be destroyed by a bunch of half-educated nihilist fanatics, who can offer no one anything other than more misery and destruction. We also have not freed ourselves from our own self-imposed political and intellectual tyrannies to simply hand the keys over to someone else with equally awful and tired old ideas. Its certainly true that European civilization suffered a severe loss of confidence in itself because of the horrors of the 20th century and our own barbarism to each other, but its not the 20th century any more, and the times they are a changing. Its my belief that the world is big enough for everyone to if (not love each other), then at least get along, but if people cannot accept that, and continue to persue a path of confrontation, intimidation, and threats, then they have to be confronted because if we don't then we Europeans have no right to describe ourselves as free people. I hope that if the 20th century taught us anything it taught us that, and its not a new lesson either, its a constant theme of our own history.

[Galbally]

Diuretic;518144 wrote: Yay! It doesn't matter if they're Muslim, Christian, Hindu etc - xenophobia, religious fascism and sexism sprayed in the manner we're seeing has to be dealt with. There's a limit to tolerance. Tolerance is a part of a liberal democracy, but tolerance doesn't mean surrender, especially if it means the death of liberal democracy and the overtaking by tyrants.


I completely agree. Tolerance is somewhat of a luxury, and it only works on those who have the will to themselves be tolerant toward others. Sometimes its wise to drop the illusions about the world we live in and the real attitudes of people who see themselves as our enemies, (whether we wish it or not). Its not pleasant, but its also an unavoidable truth. We ignore such things at our own peril in my opinion.

[Saffron]

Galbally;518194 wrote: I completely agree. Tolerance is somewhat of a luxury, and it only works on those who have the will to themselves be tolerant toward others. Sometimes its wise to drop the illusions about the world we live in and the real attitudes of people who see themselves as our enemies, (whether we wish it or not). Its not pleasant, but its also an unavoidable truth. We ignore such things at our own peril in my opinion.
Oh yes, you are right. I totally agree, 100%. You are so smart. As far as I see, you are always correct. Always.

:p

[Lulu2]

Fascinating! I sent that essay up above to a very learned friend who sent THIS:

he titled it Churchill saw it coming!

And he also said in one of his last speeches, There will always be an England so long as there is an America.

(The speech below was written in 1899! Sir Winston Churchill was, without doubt, one of the greatest men of the late 19th and 20th centuries. He was a brave young soldier, a brilliant journalist, an extraordinary politician and statesman, a great war leader and Prime Minister, to whom the Western world must be forever in his debt. He was a prophet in his own time; He died on 24 January 1965, at the grand old age of 90 and, after a lifetime of service to his country, was accorded a State funeral.)

HERE IS THE SPEECH:

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries, improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slave ry until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyzes the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome."

Sir Winston Churchill; The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248-50 - London : Churchill saw it coming.

[Galbally]

Saffron;518206 wrote: Oh yes, you are right. I totally agree, 100%. You are so smart. As far as I see, you are always correct. Always.

:p


Erm , I dunno about always, but I will settle for sometimes. Did you get that job you were up for yet? Best of luck on that one. :-6

[Galbally]

Lulu2;518216 wrote: Fascinating! I sent that essay up above to a very learned friend who sent THIS:

he titled it Churchill saw it coming!

And he also said in one of his last speeches, There will always be an England so long as there is an America.

(The speech below was written in 1899! Sir Winston Churchill was, without doubt, one of the greatest men of the late 19th and 20th centuries. He was a brave young soldier, a brilliant journalist, an extraordinary politician and statesman, a great war leader and Prime Minister, to whom the Western world must be forever in his debt. He was a prophet in his own time; He died on 24 January 1965, at the grand old age of 90 and, after a lifetime of service to his country, was accorded a State funeral.)

HERE IS THE SPEECH:

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries, improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slave ry until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyzes the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome."

Sir Winston Churchill; The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248-50 - London : Churchill saw it coming.


The way I see it is that Islamic and Western civilization have always been inimical toward one another because they are so different and have a completely different approach to life, thats simply a fact whether its unPC to say so or not. Sometimes there is an uneasy co-existence, sometimes open hostility, sometimes warfare, and both are culpable on this score. The operative fact at the moment is whether this current phase of history is going to degenerate into another round of violence and war or whether it isn't, its also a fact that your ideas are only as good as your ability to defend them, and people who lose sight of that are quickly overcome. Like I said, the world is big enough to share, but only if people are actually prepared to share it in the first place, the only other path is that of conflict and in that instance the old maxim "woe to the vanquished" is as apt as it ever was.

[Lulu2]

What I find fascinating is how far back some of our respected leaders've been thinking about this!

[Galbally]

Lulu2;518251 wrote: What I find fascinating is how far back some of our respected leaders've been thinking about this!


Well, its been going on for about 1,400 years, so any leader taking a cursory glance at history in this part of the world should see that its not something new. As ever the operative question is "to be, or not to be", it seems we may once again have to work out the answer to that one for ourselves, whether we like it or not.

[Lulu2]

'BallyB, you're looking from the European perspective, which gives you MUCH more "history" with Islamic aggression! You helped me see that our isolation over here has left us inexperienced in these matters until fairly recently.

[Saffron]

Galbally;518223 wrote: Erm , I dunno about always, but I will settle for sometimes. Did you get that job you were up for yet? Best of luck on that one. :-6


My interview's thursday.:-3

[Galbally]

[QUOTE=Saffron;518318]My interview's thursday.:-3[/QUOTE

Well good luck on it, and best foot forward! :-6

[Galbally]

Lulu2;518313 wrote: 'BallyB, you're looking from the European perspective, which gives you MUCH more "history" with Islamic aggression! You helped me see that our isolation over here has left us inexperienced in these matters until fairly recently.


I would say that the most important thing as ever is to remain cool, calm, and collected about these issues, watch events as they occur, observe the patterns that are developing, and deal with them appropriately in a manner that minimizes any damage to our own interests, as ever.

[Lulu2]

Ever considered running for office, 'BBob?

[Galbally]

Lulu2;519173 wrote: Ever considered running for office, 'BBob?


No, I don't think I would have the ability to keep a straight face half the time, so I probably wouldn't be much good. If I ever do become Commission President of the European Union though I promise I will put plenty of money into science investment. And have a nice party in Brussels with snacks and things as well, and you will be invited of course.

[koan]

Galbally;518671 wrote: I would say that the most important thing as ever is to remain cool, calm, and collected about these issues, watch events as they occur, observe the patterns that are developing, and deal with them appropriately in a manner that minimizes any damage to our own interests, as ever.


So if patterns decide that certain Muslims continue to attack the Western world then we can decide that all Muslims are dangerous and round them all up or bomb them all to hell? This thread makes me sick. Not you, Galbally. I find you fairly well reasoned. It's just this insistence in only seeing one side of the argument. "Our" interests should always include the interests of all people not just those within certain borders.

[Galbally]

koan;519378 wrote: So if patterns decide that certain Muslims continue to attack the Western world then we can decide that all Muslims are dangerous and round them all up or bomb them all to hell? This thread makes me sick. Not you, Galbally. I find you fairly well reasoned. It's just this insistence in only seeing one side of the argument. "Our" interests should always include the interests of all people not just those within certain borders.


Of course it does, as do most sensible tolerant people in the west, [don't forget 1,000,000 british people did actually protest against their own government before the start of the Iraq war (which I don't support and never have BTW)], while also recognizing that we don't actually own or run the world, or even set the agenda within a lot of it, thats an old conceit born of intellectual naivety. All we can reasonably do is be honest about the situation and not confuse tolerance and a proper sense of decency with the ability to be hard headed about what is actually happening here. The people who are involved in actually organizing and orchestrating attacks and developing violent cells are a relatively small group of people, the people funding them and providing them with an intellectual cover story to justify there actions are also relatively small though larger, but the idea of general, knee-jerk anti-westernism is rife throughout the world, and we truly ignore that at our own peril.

Thats the climate that can facilitate the idea that ordinary Americans had it coming on sept 11th, or that Denmark should be bombed because of some cartoons, or that the pope can't speak his views about another religion without causing riots. And somehow all of this is acceptable and normal, why? One of the problems about even having this discussion is because of the idea that even discussing the views of other peoples and cultures is seen as somehow racist or imperial, even if these views suck (such as the despicable treatment of Women in Iran, the beheading of "fornicators" in Saudi Arabia, or the destruction of civil society by a bunch of Islamic/fascist jerks in Algeria) so there is no honest opinions expressed, lots of uneasy silences, and little truth, a dangerous situation. Its all a load of codswallop, people seem more than willing to tell us why our way of life is patently awful, why can't we at least defend our own particular ideals without being thought of as racists by our own people? Its a device being used to get us to shut up and say nothing, and its time we got over it. If we are going to honestly engage with the majority of ordinary Muslim people, or people from any other non-western civilization, we need to be at least able to speak our minds about how we see things. Otherwise we end up in the end tacitly agreeing to shut up and do what we are told by whoever the biggest bully happens to be, thats not something I wanna do myself.

Its extraordinarily difficult for Muslims with moderate opinions in the Islamic world to speak out because they basically are coerced into shutting up, which is kinda whats happening here now as well, and particularly to ordinary Muslims living in the west who are afraid to speak out against these fascist scumballs living amongst them. If people cannot express their outrage that violent, extremist groups living within their own countries are calling for the destruction of these same countries and the conversion of everyone into some hellish nightmare version of a most extreme form of religious oppression why the hell should we pretend that there is any such thing as free speech any more, its just "you can say what you like as long as you don't say anything that might be "misinterpreted" by a bunch of fascists to mean that you are not that keen on their ideas???" Last year the London aritists Gilbert and George produced an "edgy" (please) exhibition depicting Jesus Christ as a homoerotic icon, wonder what would have happened if they had tried something similar about Mohamed, or what can anyone say about Islam any more? Can we say anything? Is it wrong to say that a lot of Muslim ideas are crap as far as we are concerned or is that racist? I dunno, maybe you can tell me why this is so?

I can understand peoples reticence about being blunt about these matters, as of course there are reactionary, xenophobic, and militaristic voices in our own societies that want nothing more than to create this famous "clash of civilizations" that we hear so much about. But thats not the same thing as balanced, decent-minded people being honest about what is at the moment a pretty conflictual situation, we have been complicit in our own silence for far too long, and its about time that we actually start putting our own points of view across, not with bombs, but with words, because if we don't then we are cowards and fools.

[Galbally]

I don't want you to take this as an attack on any views you have Koan, you are a intelligent and rational poster and I understand where you are coming from on this completely, I also share I think, a lot of your concerns about what a possible backlash against innocent Muslims in our own societies could turn into, and thats as frightening a prospect as anything else, after all Europeans murdered 6 million Jews who never said boo to a goose so the mind can only shudder about what could happen if this situation is allowed to get out of control.

Which is why I feel passionately that this debate needs to be had by people of good heart and honest opinion, and sooner rather than later because this problem of the deepening gulf between us and Muslim societies is growing (and yes our own governments have done a lot to make the situation worse, but they are not the only ones involved in this, we all are, including ordinary Muslims), we must come to an accommodation and a mutual respect for differing views but also have respect within our own countries for our own particular way of life, without grievance, because if we do not then we are headed for a very dark century indeed.

To my mind the middle east at the moment looks a lot like Europe did in the 1930s and a lot of the same primal and malevolent ideas of hatred, race, creed, and intolerance are driving it, we have to do and say something before it becomes pointless to say anything because it will be too late.

[Galbally]

Magenta flame;519572 wrote: Gallbally just wondering if you've ever read anything from Tariq Ali?

this mans books is where I get most of my information regarding the middle east crisis and history of Islam/ and politics of such.

Here's a taste of his writings

http://tariqali.org/ExtractClashLetter.html

yOu will see this man has no side that he stands clearly on. And doesn't pull any punches when it comes to critisizing both sides. He allows history to stand as it's own wittness.


That was a really good article, I have read quite a few books talking the perspective of both radical and moderate muslims and middle easterners of various creeds and ethnicities, and its important if we are going to have any understanding of what is happening there and to those people that we do so. The last book I read on it was Robert Fisks, "The Great War for Civilization", it is a brilliant, moving, terrifying book, and it made me think a lot about what is happening, and my own attitudes to it as a westerner living in Europe.

[Lulu2]

KOAN "So if patterns decide that certain Muslims continue to attack the Western world then we can decide that all Muslims are dangerous and round them all up or bomb them all to hell? This thread makes me sick"

++++++++++++ Golly...did I miss the part where we decided to round them up or bomb them to hell? When exactly was that said?