Your Thoughts Please

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sat May 20, 2006 12:37 pm

One of the residents of our Retirement Community shot himself in the head with a small caliber revolver the other day. He did it while sitting in his car near the tennis courts that he loved to play on. He left a note pinned to his shirt explaining why he took his own life. His wife had died two years prior due to breast cancer and he had adjusted to his being alone and was quite active in a number of activities. His note said that he had just come from the doctor and was told that he had Alzheimer's Disease (begining), and that his affairs were in order, and that he had no intention of being a psychological burden to his only daughter and her family. He went on to say that he had lead a happy and full life and was ready to go. I only hope I would have the guts to do the same thing if it were me.

What's your thinking about this?

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Sat May 20, 2006 12:49 pm

Very selfish, his daughter must be be devistated.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Sat May 20, 2006 12:55 pm

Oh, his poor daughter! He didn't even discuss it with her, how she would feel. Imagine her shock at it all! He did not do her a kindness at all.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sat May 20, 2006 1:20 pm

Interesting response abbey and chronsigirl-----------How would the daughter feel having to watch her dad slowly over a period of years not only eat up her potential inheritance because of the cost of maintaining someone in his condition, but watching as he no longer recognises her, his grandchildren and has no idea where he is? Look at how long Ronald Reagan was in this condition. Do you really think it's fair that she go through this emotional turmoil that would be instore for her if he lives for years and years. His death she would soon get over.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Sat May 20, 2006 1:28 pm

Well, since I am going through a long time period with my husband as an invalid, I will give you my perspective.

Does he know who I am?

About 50% or less of the time.

Can he even say my name?

No, but he calls me mom sometimes, and this week told the doctor I was pretty.

Is his condition deteriorating?

Yes, daily. Very much so the last month.

Is this worth the emotional turmoil?

Yes. With every breath he takes, he is still alive and with me. He did not leave me with any directives, so I did what I thought he would want. If he had asked for no measures, I would have done that. But his behavior since coming home has shown me he wants to live, and keep on living.

Will he get any better?

I do not think so, he has reached the peak timeframe of recovery. If he can overcome this latest hurdle-which I will know next week-he may be with me for awhile longer. And I am glad for what I have.

Did this decision change my whole life?

Yes, you all know what I have gone through, and would again. He is my husband, and love is unconditional.

*For the poor daughter, I do not think she will get over it soon. It might scar her the rest of her life. *

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sat May 20, 2006 1:52 pm

I had no knowledge of your personal family situation chronsigirl, but I can understand your thinking and sense of love and obligation re: a spouse. You apparently view the situation the same with a father, is that right?

nihilisticmadman · Post by **nihilisticmadman** » Sat May 20, 2006 2:04 pm

It's not an easy situation to be in and I am not sure what I would do in the same...

In one way I can understand why he did it, to not give his own daughter and familly the view of him sick of such illness and well he was probably scare of how he will get before dying... So he did it doing himself a favor and thinking he did for his daughter too...

But in an other way it would have bee more courageous for him to stay, not because taking your own life is bad, but because I believe his daughter will be able to grief more easily if he stay and die with time spending all his last moments with her... She will know it's coming, but here a suicide is just so sudden, so un-expected that the shock must be even bigger for her...

I really have no idea what I would do... I think I would stay...

JayDee · Post by **JayDee** » Sat May 20, 2006 2:06 pm

Hello,I've only just joined.

I can sympathise with the Alzheimer's situation- my mother in law died, suffering from it.

Without wishing to sound harsh, one practical outcome of committing suicide is that any life insurance taken out, is void.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Sat May 20, 2006 2:08 pm

I would think it is more maternal instinct-I do many things I would for a young child. He is emotionally about 2-4 years old now. But inside he is still the same person, and it can emerge at times. There is nothing so deja vu for me, then at night, when he sleeps and talks in his sleep, his voice is the same deep strong bass it once was, the words are coherent, and the thought processes still there. I know he still exists inside of what his body has become.

Yes, it is sad to see them deteriorate. It breaks my heart when he hurts sometimes and cries. He did today. But I have to do what is best to take care of him, and inside he knows it. Or the trust factor would not remain afterwards. And he does trust me, and would not let them do things for him in the nursing home. That is why I brought him home as soon as I could.

If at all possible, I would want him to be at home when he dies. He was happy here, and is still happy for long periods of time within the day.

I would not opt for euthanasia, he did not believe in that. We had discussed things like that long before he was ill. That and suicide was not an option for our religious beliefs. I can not tell others what their choice would be. But you asked for input, so I gave mine, Lon. I probably will not discuss it much more, because it bothers me so.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sat May 20, 2006 2:13 pm

JayDee wrote: Hello,I've only just joined.

I can sympathise with the Alzheimer's situation- my mother in law died, suffering from it.

Without wishing to sound harsh, one practical outcome of committing suicide is that any life insurance taken out, is void.

With all due respect, that's not true. Most all life insurance policies have a two year Suicide Clause, meaning that after two years of the policy being issued they will pay full benefits. The reason for that is to keep someone from taking out a policy and then immediately committing suicide.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat May 20, 2006 4:43 pm

chonsigirl wrote:

*For the poor daughter, I do not think she will get over it soon. It might scar her the rest of her life. *We can only hope they had enough communication so she would understand his thought processes. I mean, maybe he said on previous occassions that he'd never want to suffer that way, for instance. I know I'm pretty verbal in that way ... alright, in most every way.

sunny104 · Post by **sunny104** » Sat May 20, 2006 4:47 pm

I would understand and accept his decision.

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Sat May 20, 2006 5:19 pm

I totally understand the action this man took. I do understand how bad his daughter will feel. However, I think she probably knows what a proud man her dad was. I often think.. would I have the courage to do what he did if I knew I would become incompetent. Im not sure. The reason being that I couldnt do it while I was in controll and once out of controll It would be too late.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sat May 20, 2006 7:00 pm

Suicide is always shocking. But its a very personal thing, if I had anything to add it would be that life is very short as it is.

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Sat May 20, 2006 8:47 pm

Lon, I understand his reason for taking his life. I have work with Alzheimer's patients, and family for 15 years now, it is an awful disease that there is no cure for at this time.

He did what he felt he had to do. As someone said I also hope he was close enough to his only daughter that she will understand his actions. She will still be devastated by his action but hopefully come to terms with it in time. If she has children their grandfather is now dead, I know how important my grandfather's were in my life I feel sad for them most of all.

There are no easy answers in life sometimes we just have to accept what is.:-1

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Sun May 21, 2006 12:19 am

I have always supported the belief that we should be in charge of our own destiny. When faced with such a horrible life, I would want to end it my own way, too. I would wish that the government would not stick it's nose into how a person dies. They already have so much control over how we live. How we decide to go out should be our own choice. I wouldn't choose a bullet to the head, but a "Jack Kevorkian" type method, where it's planned, and you can have your family around you after having discussed it with them, and the time to say goodbye.

Yes, we should all be allowed to end our own lives as we see fit.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Sun May 21, 2006 12:22 am

Lon wrote: With all due respect, that's not true. Most all life insurance policies have a two year Suicide Clause, meaning that after two years of the policy being issued they will pay full benefits. The reason for that is to keep someone from taking out a policy and then immediately committing suicide.
Now there is something I did not know. I assumed what JayDee had said was true, too.

cars · Post by **cars** » Sun May 21, 2006 12:30 am

BabyRider wrote: Now there is something I did not know. I assumed what JayDee had said was true, too.

I thought so also. It may be prudent to "check the fine print" on your Insurance policy "first", before (God forbid) every having to decide to take matters into your own hands! :wah:

theia · Post by **theia** » Sun May 21, 2006 12:34 am

My father suffered from Alzheimer's and it was heartbreaking to watch his progression from the man we knew to someone who no longer recognised us. It was especially difficult because his body was still the same but his mind was elsewhere. Yet, since reading your post, Lon, I feel grateful to my father that he didn't commit suicide. Although I can fully understand someone taking his/her own life in those circumstances, I think that would have been harder for us, his family, to cope with.

robinseggs · Post by **robinseggs** » Sun May 21, 2006 8:02 am

My grandmother died with Ahlzheimers...very sad way to go. Thing is though, even though she was confused about her surroundings, her mind was really in the past and when I played along with it, we had some really great conversations where her memory was crystal clear. My mom validated her stories as factual and we realized that even though her short term memory was shot she was living in her past as she constantly was speaking of the old "farm" and would point out the window and tell me her little friends were playing in the field. Often I would sit and play along with it. She stayed content and happy this way. Sad though every time she realized that grandpa was dead (as if told for the first time), she would break into tears into disbelief. I remember once just not wanting to see her suffer "one more time" and when she asked where did grandpa just go, I replied "He went to the store Grandma, don't worry, he'll be right back" and she was content with that. Then she said we better get "down there" to shuck the corn before "daddy" gets back....??? So she was back and forth..

I do think suicide can be a very selfish way for someone to go, but in some situations like Lon's friend, maybe if the guy could have talked to his daughter first, maybe she could have helped him/spent valuable time with him before he actually did it. I agree with what someone said--she will be scarred for life as well as any grandchildren.

Uncle Kram · Post by **Uncle Kram** » Sun May 21, 2006 8:16 am

After my terminally ill Uncle begged me to kill him, I decided I would never get to that point of being unable to end things myself. I have told my kids that there's no way I'm going to deteriorate into a helpless burden where I suffer and they suffer as spectators.

I would have all my things in order and say my goodbyes. I would choose a method less dramatic to enable them to deal with it better. If you don't discuss it well in advance and make your wishes clear, it is inevitable that your loved ones would try to talk you out of it. If it gets to the stage where you contemplate this action, it's all over anyway.

I went to see my Uncle in hospital every day for 2 months before he died. The memory of him with his arms around my neck and his head on my shoulders while he went to the toilet is one of the first things that comes to mind instead of all the great times we shared. There's no way I'm going to let my kids watch me deteriorate like that. They can remember my crap jokes instead.

vayne43 · Post by **vayne43** » Sun May 21, 2006 8:24 am

What a horrible way to have to end your life---It is so awful to think that years of

living have resulted in passing this way. I feel especially sorry for his remaining family but in my opinion the decision was his and I am sure he thought it over carefully and felt this action was necessary. It is important to die with dignity and not be a burden for someone else. God Bless His Soul!

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sun May 21, 2006 9:42 am

BabyRider wrote: Now there is something I did not know. I assumed what JayDee had said was true, too.

Movies, TV and novels have continued this myth and most people think the same. Having been associated with the Insurance Industry for many years I have seen many claims for suicide paid after that two year incontestable period.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sun May 21, 2006 10:08 am

A couple of thoughts-----------There is a big difference between Senile Dementia and Alzheimer's Disease. Sometimes the two are confused.

Secondly---I can't speak for the UK, but in the U.S. the cost of warehousing someone with advanced Alzheimer's can run from $3,500 to $6,000 monthly. This type of care is not provided by any governmental programs and is only taken care of my private insurance policies that very few seniors have. In the absense of having private insurance the alternative is to have the individual live with family or go into a nursing home ill equipped to handle Alzheimer's patients in a proper manner. Are children and other family members really prepared and willing to change the diapers on a parent, clean up after them, go and pick them up from the Police Station after they have wandered off, handle the increased household cost of providing for a parent, sometimes for many years. I think in most cases the answer would be no. Oh----as long as we can have dad alive and someone else is taking care of him and the grandkids can go once in a while to stare at this remnant of a human being, that's OK. No, I really think it is the children that are selfish, wanting to hang on to a memory of what once was. Again, if it were me, I hope I'd have the balls to end it.

Uncle Kram · Post by **Uncle Kram** » Sun May 21, 2006 10:21 am

Lon wrote: A couple of thoughts-----------There is a big difference between Senile Dementia and Alzheimer's Disease. Sometimes the two are confused.

Secondly---I can't speak for the UK, but in the U.S. the cost of warehousing someone with advanced Alzheimer's can run from $3,500 to $6,000 monthly. This type of care is not provided by any governmental programs and is only taken care of my private insurance policies that very few seniors have. In the absense of having private insurance the alternative is to have the individual live with family or go into a nursing home ill equipped to handle Alzheimer's patients in a proper manner. Are children and other family members really prepared and willing to change the diapers on a parent, clean up after them, go and pick them up from the Police Station after they have wandered off, handle the increased household cost of providing for a parent, sometimes for many years. I think in most cases the answer would be no. Oh----as long as we can have dad alive and someone else is taking care of him and the grandkids can go once in a while to stare at this remnant of a human being, that's OK. No, I really think it is the children that are selfish, wanting to hang on to a memory of what once was. Again, if it were me, I hope I'd have the balls to end it.

I once went into my kitchen and there was an old man in there who had just wandered in. After my initial shock and his failure to say anything it soon became clear that he didn't know where or who he was. It was a real shame. I went outside and saw his daughters running up the road frantically searching for him. I always remember them coming into my house and grabbing him, then walking off without looking at, or speaking to me once. I guess that's the stress of a high maintenance parent. Where's the quality of life amongst all the confusion?

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Sun May 21, 2006 10:37 am

Valid and correct information Lon there is nothing being done for our elderly with this disease as far as care. The cost it out of this world on all levels. This is a shame, a damn shame in my opinion. :-5 The reality is raising money for anything to do with the elderly is close to impossible they are going to die anyway so what's the point ( the feeling of the masses not mine).

If it was a childhood disease the money would be there by the truck loads, and care would be the best. We as a society don't take care of our elderly period. I can go on, and on about this but I won't it makes me cry...:-1

Your also right about the families wanting to hold onto the person that was just a human response nothing else. Believe me their loved one after a certain point knows nothing period. We keep people alive long past the time we should. Medicine today has allowed that to happen. A natural death is almost unheard of in todays world that is another crying shame..:-1

I don't know what the answers are I wish I did because as I age and the baby boomers age we will be face with a huge population facing these very issues.:-5

[QUOTE]Secondly---I can't speak for the UK, but in the U.S. the cost of warehousing someone with advanced Alzheimer's can run from $3,500 to $6,000 monthly. This type of care is not provided by any governmental programs and is only taken care of my private insurance policies that very few seniors have. In the absense of having private insurance the alternative is to have the individual live with family or go into a nursing home ill equipped to handle Alzheimer's patients in a proper manner. Are children and other family members really prepared and willing to change the diapers on a parent, clean up after them, go and pick them up from the Police Station after they have wandered off, handle the increased household cost of providing for a parent, sometimes for many years. I think in most cases the answer would be no. Oh----as long as we can have dad alive and someone else is taking care of him and the grandkids can go once in a while to stare at this remnant of a human being, that's OK. No, I really think it is the children that are selfish, wanting to hang on to a memory of what once was. Again, if it were me, I hope I'd have the balls to end it.[/QUOTE]