http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/04/26/news/cia.php by Dan Bilefsky International Herald Tribune, extract:
BRUSSELS Investigators for the European Parliament said Wednesday that data gathered from air safety regulators showed that the CIA had flown 1,000 undeclared flights over Europe since 2001, sometimes stopping on the Continent to transport terrorism suspects kidnapped inside the European Union to countries using torture.
The operation used the same group of U.S. agents and the same fleet of secret planes over and over, the investigators said. It also concluded that European countries, including Italy, Sweden, and Bosnia and Herzegovina, had been aware of CIA abductions or handovers in their territory and therefore may have been complicit in allowing human rights to be breached.
"The European Parliament deplores the fact that the CIA has, on several occasions, clearly been responsible for kidnapping and illegally detaining alleged terrorists on the territory of member states, as well for extraordinary renditions" to third countries, wrote Giovanni Fava of Italy in a nine-page document. Fava, a Socialist, wrote the report for the multiparty investigation.
The CIA declined to comment on the specifics of the report, but an agency spokesman in Washington defended the practice of renditions. "Renditions are an anti-terror tool that the United States has used for years, consistent with its laws and treaty obligations," said Paul Gimigliano. "The CIA does not condone or tolerate torture, transport individuals to other countries for the purpose of torture, or knowingly receive intelligence obtained by torture."
"The CIA does not condone or tolerate torture, transport individuals to other countries for the purpose of torture, or knowingly receive intelligence obtained by torture."?
Even with the implied weasel words, I find that hard to credit. Even if you flesh it out to the CIA does not condone or tolerate torture (by its own staff, anyway), transport individuals to other countries for the purpose of torture (though that might well be a side effect), or knowingly receive intelligence obtained by torture (because they especially ask not to be told such details) it's still short of reality. Of course they ship people around for the obvious reason - that the destination countries are out of jurisdictions capable of invoking habeas corpus, and fully equipped and willing to question beyond bounds that Western domestic law would impose.
I clearly remember President Bush asserting emphatically on television that "We do not torture prisoners", which leaves all the weasel words unsaid too.
Given the extent to which torture is officially sanctioned for use within the CIA, you have to wonder how much worse it gets when their victims are sent abroad for processing. The Washington Post asked this year for questions to put to the President, and this one is a striking example of turning the issue on its head:
From Tracy: Mr. President, the CIA had described waterboarding, used with administration approval on several Al Queda suspects, as the following: ‘The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner’s face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.’ If this were done to an American soldier, sir, would you consider it torture?
extraordinary rendition
extraordinary rendition
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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anastrophe
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extraordinary rendition
an administrative note here, purely technical.
for reasons we've yet to nail down, the forum software goes mad as a hatter when the very first post in a new thread has quoted text in it. i guess it assumes that if it's the first post, there can't possibly quoted text. dunno.
however, the reality is, when that happens, it 'blows the margins' and that post causes the formatting of the main forumgarden page to go all to hell.
so, if possible, please don't use the [ q u o t e ] tags in the first post of a new thread.
what i've done to spots post is use the indent function as a pseudo quote mechanism. there may be other, better ways of formatting, but for now this suffices.
yours in everlasting continuity,
the janitor
for reasons we've yet to nail down, the forum software goes mad as a hatter when the very first post in a new thread has quoted text in it. i guess it assumes that if it's the first post, there can't possibly quoted text. dunno.
however, the reality is, when that happens, it 'blows the margins' and that post causes the formatting of the main forumgarden page to go all to hell.
so, if possible, please don't use the [ q u o t e ] tags in the first post of a new thread.
what i've done to spots post is use the indent function as a pseudo quote mechanism. there may be other, better ways of formatting, but for now this suffices.
yours in everlasting continuity,
the janitor
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]
extraordinary rendition
Extraordinary Rendition?
I see nothing at all wrong with it.
This is not a conventional war that we are ALL engaged in one way or another and conventional methods simply won’t work.
If history has taught us nothing else we should learn that the victim of a war invariably starts out using the tactics that won them the last war which at once puts them at a disadvantage.
Furthermore in past wars the military was limited in their actions by military law, the Geneva Convention, and the Hague Convention ONLY.
The idea that civil law should be applied to people taken in war in the past simply would not have been considered for a moment, and nor should it be now.
There’s another factor to bring in.
These ‘people’ who are subject to ‘extraordinary rendition’ are not simply innocent bystanders. They have either been captured in action as unlawful combatants, a situation in the past that would have seen them similarly executed as the existing law provides, or have been identified as being implicated in acts against the allies.
The assumption of innocence of an accused person doesn’t hold in such circumstances and nor does the application of civil law and process.
Add to that the impracticality and probably inadvisability of presenting such evidence as exists in a civilian court – in the latter case probably ‘burning’ a source that may even be embedded in the hostile camp – and the stupidity of proposing that such people should be ‘tried or released’ comes into focus.
I have no problem with ‘extraordinary rendition’ nor with Camp X-Ray. The important thing is to do and use what works. As for the EU getting het up about over flights or even member states being used for stopovers – if the EU don’t want to join in the fight against the forces of EVIL – for that’s what is being fought by the allies, then they must not expect aid, defence, support, investment, or any of the benefits that come from the free world that the US is busting it’s national balls to protect.
I see nothing at all wrong with it.
This is not a conventional war that we are ALL engaged in one way or another and conventional methods simply won’t work.
If history has taught us nothing else we should learn that the victim of a war invariably starts out using the tactics that won them the last war which at once puts them at a disadvantage.
Furthermore in past wars the military was limited in their actions by military law, the Geneva Convention, and the Hague Convention ONLY.
The idea that civil law should be applied to people taken in war in the past simply would not have been considered for a moment, and nor should it be now.
There’s another factor to bring in.
These ‘people’ who are subject to ‘extraordinary rendition’ are not simply innocent bystanders. They have either been captured in action as unlawful combatants, a situation in the past that would have seen them similarly executed as the existing law provides, or have been identified as being implicated in acts against the allies.
The assumption of innocence of an accused person doesn’t hold in such circumstances and nor does the application of civil law and process.
Add to that the impracticality and probably inadvisability of presenting such evidence as exists in a civilian court – in the latter case probably ‘burning’ a source that may even be embedded in the hostile camp – and the stupidity of proposing that such people should be ‘tried or released’ comes into focus.
I have no problem with ‘extraordinary rendition’ nor with Camp X-Ray. The important thing is to do and use what works. As for the EU getting het up about over flights or even member states being used for stopovers – if the EU don’t want to join in the fight against the forces of EVIL – for that’s what is being fought by the allies, then they must not expect aid, defence, support, investment, or any of the benefits that come from the free world that the US is busting it’s national balls to protect.
extraordinary rendition
golem wrote: if the EU don’t want to join in the fight against the forces of EVIL – for that’s what is being fought by the allies, then they must not expect aid, defence, support, investment, or any of the benefits that come from the free world that the US is busting it’s national balls to protect.Oh, if only. What does it take to get the option? Suggest a single route by which we can get out from under this rapine self-interest and I'll start making donations tomorrow.
I'm not surprised you put quote-marks around "people" as though they're somehow untermensch, or capitalize "evil" as though the issues are absolute. These are the hallmarks of simplistic propaganda. We're discussing, not jackbooting. Be relative, golem, come into the real world of grays and leave the black and white to extremists.
I'm not surprised you put quote-marks around "people" as though they're somehow untermensch, or capitalize "evil" as though the issues are absolute. These are the hallmarks of simplistic propaganda. We're discussing, not jackbooting. Be relative, golem, come into the real world of grays and leave the black and white to extremists.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
extraordinary rendition
spot wrote: Oh, if only. What does it take to get the option? Suggest a single route by which we can get out from under this rapine self-interest and I'll start making donations tomorrow.
I'm not surprised you put quote-marks around "people" as though they're somehow untermensch, or capitalize "evil" as though the issues are absolute. These are the hallmarks of simplistic propaganda. We're discussing, not jackbooting. Be relative, golem, come into the real world of grays and leave the black and white to extremists.
In life, despite what some people believe and many more have been persuaded to the contrary, there actually are some absolutes. Not everything has a place on a continuum, not everything is relative to ones standpoint, there are some things that either ARE or simply ARE NOT with NO mid ground.
And there IS such a thing as evil.
Not the religious evil, that can justifiably be said to be subjective, but a culture or set of values that are destructive to mans present enlightenment and future evolution.
And I do not mean just islam. I also mean people who are frequently spoken of as having ‘personality disorders’ as an excuse for their evil acts or very nature or mental aberration. I claim that there are mental disabilities that manifest themselves by creating an evil person.
Furthermore there are some homo sapiens who, by culture or will, live in a reality that is not just different but at odds with those of us who live in an evolved civilisation. I condemn such homo sapiens as being of such nature as to deserve to be separated from modern socially evolved PEOPLE.
I'm not surprised you put quote-marks around "people" as though they're somehow untermensch, or capitalize "evil" as though the issues are absolute. These are the hallmarks of simplistic propaganda. We're discussing, not jackbooting. Be relative, golem, come into the real world of grays and leave the black and white to extremists.
In life, despite what some people believe and many more have been persuaded to the contrary, there actually are some absolutes. Not everything has a place on a continuum, not everything is relative to ones standpoint, there are some things that either ARE or simply ARE NOT with NO mid ground.
And there IS such a thing as evil.
Not the religious evil, that can justifiably be said to be subjective, but a culture or set of values that are destructive to mans present enlightenment and future evolution.
And I do not mean just islam. I also mean people who are frequently spoken of as having ‘personality disorders’ as an excuse for their evil acts or very nature or mental aberration. I claim that there are mental disabilities that manifest themselves by creating an evil person.
Furthermore there are some homo sapiens who, by culture or will, live in a reality that is not just different but at odds with those of us who live in an evolved civilisation. I condemn such homo sapiens as being of such nature as to deserve to be separated from modern socially evolved PEOPLE.
extraordinary rendition
golem wrote: I also mean people who are frequently spoken of as having ‘personality disorders’ as an excuse for their evil acts or very nature or mental aberration. I claim that there are mental disabilities that manifest themselves by creating an evil person.You seem never to put yourself in other people's shoes, golem. Consider Tracy's question in the first post: If this were done to an American soldier, sir, would you consider it torture?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
extraordinary rendition
But what constitutes torture?
And there again, if an American citizen, we’re not talking ‘soldiers here, don’t forget that, was found taking part in a conflict between two countries, one of which was a ‘friendly’ country with the US then why should that American citizen NOT be taken back to the US for such interrogation as was appropriate if he had been fighting or otherwise aiding the ‘other’ side?
The ‘spin’ comes in by the deliberate confusion of civilian law and civilian crime with military law and military crime. They are oil and water.
Look, in war we should have no interest in ‘putting myself in the other persons shoes’ beyond that needed to better understand how to defeat the other person. That is the nature of war.
Have you even been engaged in armed conflict? I don’t know, you may have been, but I have. When the other side is intent on your destruction then there can only be one mindset – their destruction or at the very least reducing them to a state where they can not achieve their aim.
When, as is the case in the conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan and the various active theatres of islamic attack against the West, we face an enemy who doesn’t give a damm about the GC of the HC then why on earth should we worry about applying niceties of behaviour towards him? In fact to do so is stupidity in the extreme.
OK, there is simple humanity issues such as avoiding the massacre of innocents but beyond that? Nah. The rules of war must be set for both sides by the lowest common denominator.
And there again, if an American citizen, we’re not talking ‘soldiers here, don’t forget that, was found taking part in a conflict between two countries, one of which was a ‘friendly’ country with the US then why should that American citizen NOT be taken back to the US for such interrogation as was appropriate if he had been fighting or otherwise aiding the ‘other’ side?
The ‘spin’ comes in by the deliberate confusion of civilian law and civilian crime with military law and military crime. They are oil and water.
Look, in war we should have no interest in ‘putting myself in the other persons shoes’ beyond that needed to better understand how to defeat the other person. That is the nature of war.
Have you even been engaged in armed conflict? I don’t know, you may have been, but I have. When the other side is intent on your destruction then there can only be one mindset – their destruction or at the very least reducing them to a state where they can not achieve their aim.
When, as is the case in the conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan and the various active theatres of islamic attack against the West, we face an enemy who doesn’t give a damm about the GC of the HC then why on earth should we worry about applying niceties of behaviour towards him? In fact to do so is stupidity in the extreme.
OK, there is simple humanity issues such as avoiding the massacre of innocents but beyond that? Nah. The rules of war must be set for both sides by the lowest common denominator.
extraordinary rendition
golem wrote: The ‘spin’ comes in by the deliberate confusion of civilian law and civilian crime with military law and military crime. They are oil and water.Who's spinning? The question was quite specific and relates to the treatment of, among others, people kidnapped from the streets of European cities by CIA teams and processed through extraordinary rendition - that's the subject of the thread and the matter raised in Post 1. Here's the context, and the question is perfectly easy to identify in the final sentence:
From Tracy: Mr. President, the CIA had described waterboarding, used with administration approval on several Al Queda suspects, as the following: ‘The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner’s face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.’ If this were done to an American soldier, sir, would you consider it torture?
From Tracy: Mr. President, the CIA had described waterboarding, used with administration approval on several Al Queda suspects, as the following: ‘The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner’s face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.’ If this were done to an American soldier, sir, would you consider it torture?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
extraordinary rendition
spot wrote: Who's spinning? The question was quite specific and relates to the treatment of, among others, people kidnapped from the streets of European cities by CIA teams and processed through extraordinary rendition - that's the subject of the thread and the matter raised in Post 1. Here's the context, and the question is perfectly easy to identify in the final sentence:
From Tracy: Mr. President, the CIA had described waterboarding, used with administration approval on several Al Queda suspects, as the following: ‘The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner’s face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.’ If this were done to an American soldier, sir, would you consider it torture?
First off I have no problem whatsoever with terrorist suspects being taken by whatever means works. These ‘people’ hide behind civil law to undertake military acts.
It’s worth keeping in mind that it’s the actions of the islamic terrorists that have created the need for such things to be done.
The manipulation of your enemy into having to do things that run counter to their inherent morality is a thing that we are all to well aware of having been subject to this strategy ourselves for years by the palests and their supporters. To a considerable extent that is what is happening in the greater West today.
As regards the ‘water boarding’ – no, I do not consider that torture. It certainly is unpleasant but not torture.
I have seen people who have been tortured. What you describe is nothing more than hard interrogation.
Now if a tube was to have been placed into one lung and water poured in, THAT is torture.
From Tracy: Mr. President, the CIA had described waterboarding, used with administration approval on several Al Queda suspects, as the following: ‘The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner’s face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.’ If this were done to an American soldier, sir, would you consider it torture?
First off I have no problem whatsoever with terrorist suspects being taken by whatever means works. These ‘people’ hide behind civil law to undertake military acts.
It’s worth keeping in mind that it’s the actions of the islamic terrorists that have created the need for such things to be done.
The manipulation of your enemy into having to do things that run counter to their inherent morality is a thing that we are all to well aware of having been subject to this strategy ourselves for years by the palests and their supporters. To a considerable extent that is what is happening in the greater West today.
As regards the ‘water boarding’ – no, I do not consider that torture. It certainly is unpleasant but not torture.
I have seen people who have been tortured. What you describe is nothing more than hard interrogation.
Now if a tube was to have been placed into one lung and water poured in, THAT is torture.
extraordinary rendition
golem wrote: As regards the ‘water boarding’ – no, I do not consider that torture. It certainly is unpleasant but not torture.So, just to be clear, you would have no qualms about this being done to an American soldier?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
extraordinary rendition
spot wrote: So, just to be clear, you would have no qualms about this being done to an American soldier?
Of course I would not want to see a US soldier be subjected to hard interrogation. As the US soldier would have been constrained in his actions by a combination of the rules of engagement, the terms of the GC and the terms of the HC then he should be protected by the same.
On the other hand if an enemy unlawful combatant of ANY nationality was thought to have information that would save the lives of Allied forces or Allied civilians I would personally do that and far worse besides.
As I wrote – we are NOT talking about members of the enemy armed forces who must abide by the rules and conventions of war, we’re talking unlawful combatants. They have no constraint on what they can do.
Of course I would not want to see a US soldier be subjected to hard interrogation. As the US soldier would have been constrained in his actions by a combination of the rules of engagement, the terms of the GC and the terms of the HC then he should be protected by the same.
On the other hand if an enemy unlawful combatant of ANY nationality was thought to have information that would save the lives of Allied forces or Allied civilians I would personally do that and far worse besides.
As I wrote – we are NOT talking about members of the enemy armed forces who must abide by the rules and conventions of war, we’re talking unlawful combatants. They have no constraint on what they can do.
extraordinary rendition
golem wrote: As I wrote – we are NOT talking about members of the enemy armed forces who must abide by the rules and conventions of war, we’re talking unlawful combatants. They have no constraint on what they can do.That's quite true. Restricting the discussion for the moment to Iraqis fighting at the moment in Iraq, for example, from their point of view they're a national resistance movement which has taken up arms against foreign occupiers of their native soil. What, historically, has happened to foreign occupiers who finally withdraw after an unsuccessful occupation? What is the final position of the resistance movement in the post-conflict settlement? The Israeli resistance fighters went on to be major political players, as did the Lebanese, the Vietnamese and the French. This isn't the first time any of this has happened.
Of those, I would note that the Israelis and the French were treated by the occupying forces (to the best of my limited knowledge) according to prevailing law.
Of those, I would note that the Israelis and the French were treated by the occupying forces (to the best of my limited knowledge) according to prevailing law.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
extraordinary rendition
spot wrote:
That's quite true.
Restricting the discussion for the moment to Iraqis fighting at the moment in Iraq, for example, from their point of view they're a national resistance movement which has taken up arms against foreign occupiers of their native soil.
Agreed and they will be (or should be) treated accordingly – as fifth columnists.
spot wrote: What, historically, has happened to foreign occupiers who finally withdraw after an unsuccessful occupation?
Those who were captured in uniform and under military discipline were declared prisoners of war, those out of uniform were designated as being fifth columnists in which case they were usually executed ion the spot.
Let’s not forget the actions of the Japanese however who didn’t subscribe to the GC or the HC and who perpetrated horrific acts on POW’s.
spot wrote: What is the final position of the resistance movement in the post-conflict settlement?
The survivors are generally lauded and often take up political roles or just sit in the sun and grow old and try to forget the horrors. The orginisations as such and as in the case of my country often form the backbone of the new military.
spot wrote: The Israeli resistance fighters went on to be major political players, as did the Lebanese, the Vietnamese and the French. This isn't the first time any of this has happened.
Very true however until we were recognised as a nation and we formed our government whenever our resistance fighters were caught they were subjected to all sorts of horrors up to and including death at the hands of the Brits and / or the arabs.
spot wrote: Of those, I would note that the Israelis and the French were treated by the occupying forces (to the best of my limited knowledge) according to prevailing law.
Yes. Out of uniform and fighting or supporting fighters – get jailed or hanged. Wherever possible the latter.
That's quite true.
Restricting the discussion for the moment to Iraqis fighting at the moment in Iraq, for example, from their point of view they're a national resistance movement which has taken up arms against foreign occupiers of their native soil.
Agreed and they will be (or should be) treated accordingly – as fifth columnists.
spot wrote: What, historically, has happened to foreign occupiers who finally withdraw after an unsuccessful occupation?
Those who were captured in uniform and under military discipline were declared prisoners of war, those out of uniform were designated as being fifth columnists in which case they were usually executed ion the spot.
Let’s not forget the actions of the Japanese however who didn’t subscribe to the GC or the HC and who perpetrated horrific acts on POW’s.
spot wrote: What is the final position of the resistance movement in the post-conflict settlement?
The survivors are generally lauded and often take up political roles or just sit in the sun and grow old and try to forget the horrors. The orginisations as such and as in the case of my country often form the backbone of the new military.
spot wrote: The Israeli resistance fighters went on to be major political players, as did the Lebanese, the Vietnamese and the French. This isn't the first time any of this has happened.
Very true however until we were recognised as a nation and we formed our government whenever our resistance fighters were caught they were subjected to all sorts of horrors up to and including death at the hands of the Brits and / or the arabs.
spot wrote: Of those, I would note that the Israelis and the French were treated by the occupying forces (to the best of my limited knowledge) according to prevailing law.
Yes. Out of uniform and fighting or supporting fighters – get jailed or hanged. Wherever possible the latter.
extraordinary rendition
The benchmark that I use, together with a great many other people, is whether the group deliberately attacks civilians, or deliberately attacks an armed force.
In any case the innocent are bound to get killed but whereas in the case of freedom fighters – for whatever cause and no matter if I support it or not – if the innocent are killed without any attempt to minimise injury during an attack against a legitimate target, then they are just as much terrorists as those who send their kids into crowded cafés to kill and maim.
On the other hand if there is a deliberate and genuine attempt to minimise civilian casualties then those people are freedom fighters for their cause.
In any case the innocent are bound to get killed but whereas in the case of freedom fighters – for whatever cause and no matter if I support it or not – if the innocent are killed without any attempt to minimise injury during an attack against a legitimate target, then they are just as much terrorists as those who send their kids into crowded cafés to kill and maim.
On the other hand if there is a deliberate and genuine attempt to minimise civilian casualties then those people are freedom fighters for their cause.
extraordinary rendition
I don't think I could improve on that definition, it seems perfectly good to me. I doubt whether we'd agree on what constitutes a genuine attempt to minimise civilian casualties though, or whether any of the Coalition of the Willing qualify. Or, for that matter, the IDF.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
extraordinary rendition
The devil is always in the detail.
extraordinary rendition
golem wrote: The devil is always in the detail.The devil is all too often in the helicopter gunship.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
extraordinary rendition
spot wrote: The devil is all too often in the helicopter gunship.
Not down our way.
Not down our way.
extraordinary rendition
golem wrote: Not down our way.Well no, you'd not expect the Palestinians to be able to afford one after all. Expensive, gunships.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
extraordinary rendition
Two moves on this story over the last week.
The European Parliament endorsed the Report slamming several European countries for both tolerating these flights and accepting information back from the subsequent interrogations while having good reason to suspect torture in their extraction.
An Italian judge this week "ordered 26 US citizens - most of them CIA agents - to stand trial over the kidnap of an Egyptian cleric in Milan in 2003. [...] Lawyers say they have compiled thousands of pages of documents and testimony from Italian agents past and present, some of whom have acknowledged working with the US in planning the abduction.".
The current count of documented CIA flights through Europe carrying people "suspected of involvement in terror activities" now stands at 1,295. That's a lot of disappeared people.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6368269.stm relates to the rendition flights.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6363361.stm relates to the European Report.
The European Parliament endorsed the Report slamming several European countries for both tolerating these flights and accepting information back from the subsequent interrogations while having good reason to suspect torture in their extraction.
An Italian judge this week "ordered 26 US citizens - most of them CIA agents - to stand trial over the kidnap of an Egyptian cleric in Milan in 2003. [...] Lawyers say they have compiled thousands of pages of documents and testimony from Italian agents past and present, some of whom have acknowledged working with the US in planning the abduction.".
The current count of documented CIA flights through Europe carrying people "suspected of involvement in terror activities" now stands at 1,295. That's a lot of disappeared people.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6368269.stm relates to the rendition flights.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6363361.stm relates to the European Report.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
extraordinary rendition
Slightly more information finally crawls into the public gaze.The CIA used at least two secret detention centres in Lithuania after the 11 September 2001 terror attacks on the US, a Lithuanian inquiry has found. The report by a Lithuanian parliamentary committee says that in 2005 and 2006 CIA chartered planes were allowed to land in Lithuania. It says that no Lithuanian officials were allowed near the aircraft, nor were they told who was on board.
[...] The practice of "extraordinary rendition" and the long-suspected network of secret US detention facilities became among the most controversial aspects of the Bush administration's response to the 11 September attacks.
"Extraordinary rendition" is the tactic of capturing militant suspects in one country and transporting them to another without judicial oversight. The BBC's defence and security correspondent Nick Childs says critics of the Bush administration saw it as a way of avoiding legal constraints and, in some cases, as they put it, "contracting out" torture - although American officials repeatedly denied the allegations.
BBC News - Lithuania hosted secret CIA prisons
I'll bring my original comments forward, they're still fresh..."The CIA does not condone or tolerate torture, transport individuals to other countries for the purpose of torture, or knowingly receive intelligence obtained by torture."?
Even with the implied weasel words, I find that hard to credit. Even if you flesh it out to the CIA does not condone or tolerate torture (by its own staff, anyway), transport individuals to other countries for the purpose of torture (though that might well be a side effect), or knowingly receive intelligence obtained by torture (because they especially ask not to be told such details) it's still short of reality. Of course they ship people around for the obvious reason - that the destination countries are out of jurisdictions capable of invoking habeas corpus, and fully equipped and willing to question beyond bounds that Western domestic law would impose.
[...] The practice of "extraordinary rendition" and the long-suspected network of secret US detention facilities became among the most controversial aspects of the Bush administration's response to the 11 September attacks.
"Extraordinary rendition" is the tactic of capturing militant suspects in one country and transporting them to another without judicial oversight. The BBC's defence and security correspondent Nick Childs says critics of the Bush administration saw it as a way of avoiding legal constraints and, in some cases, as they put it, "contracting out" torture - although American officials repeatedly denied the allegations.
BBC News - Lithuania hosted secret CIA prisons
I'll bring my original comments forward, they're still fresh..."The CIA does not condone or tolerate torture, transport individuals to other countries for the purpose of torture, or knowingly receive intelligence obtained by torture."?
Even with the implied weasel words, I find that hard to credit. Even if you flesh it out to the CIA does not condone or tolerate torture (by its own staff, anyway), transport individuals to other countries for the purpose of torture (though that might well be a side effect), or knowingly receive intelligence obtained by torture (because they especially ask not to be told such details) it's still short of reality. Of course they ship people around for the obvious reason - that the destination countries are out of jurisdictions capable of invoking habeas corpus, and fully equipped and willing to question beyond bounds that Western domestic law would impose.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
extraordinary rendition
May I quote the Agency Spokesman one more time?
"The CIA does not condone or tolerate torture, transport individuals to other countries for the purpose of torture, or knowingly receive intelligence obtained by torture".
Dear Musa
I am glad to propose that our services take an additional step in cooperation with the establishment of a permanent CIA presence in Libya. We have talked about this move for quite some time and Libya's cooperation on WMD and other issues, as well as our recent intelligence cooperation, mean that now is the right moment to move ahead. I am prepared to send [XXX] to Libya to introduce two of my officers to you and your service, arriving in Tripoli on 20 March. These two officers, both of whom are experienced and can speak Arabic, will initially staff our station in Libya. [XXX] will communicate the details via fax. I will call to confirm this with you.
We are also eager to work with you in the questioning of the terrorist we recently rendered to your country. I would like to send to Libya an additional two officers and I would appreciate if they could have direct access to question this individual. Should you agree I would like to send these two officers to Libya on 25 March. Again [XXX] will communicate the details to you.
Steve
BBC News - Libya: Gaddafi regime's US-UK spy links revealed
To be honest that sounds too ridiculous to be true, goodness knows where it started life but I'm having trouble believing it was within the CIA. A forged letter doesn't mean Tripoli and Cairo didn't torture extraordinary rendition victims on behalf of the Neocon Bush Administration though.
"The CIA does not condone or tolerate torture, transport individuals to other countries for the purpose of torture, or knowingly receive intelligence obtained by torture".
Dear Musa
I am glad to propose that our services take an additional step in cooperation with the establishment of a permanent CIA presence in Libya. We have talked about this move for quite some time and Libya's cooperation on WMD and other issues, as well as our recent intelligence cooperation, mean that now is the right moment to move ahead. I am prepared to send [XXX] to Libya to introduce two of my officers to you and your service, arriving in Tripoli on 20 March. These two officers, both of whom are experienced and can speak Arabic, will initially staff our station in Libya. [XXX] will communicate the details via fax. I will call to confirm this with you.
We are also eager to work with you in the questioning of the terrorist we recently rendered to your country. I would like to send to Libya an additional two officers and I would appreciate if they could have direct access to question this individual. Should you agree I would like to send these two officers to Libya on 25 March. Again [XXX] will communicate the details to you.
Steve
BBC News - Libya: Gaddafi regime's US-UK spy links revealed
To be honest that sounds too ridiculous to be true, goodness knows where it started life but I'm having trouble believing it was within the CIA. A forged letter doesn't mean Tripoli and Cairo didn't torture extraordinary rendition victims on behalf of the Neocon Bush Administration though.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
extraordinary rendition
[mod deleted images]
hey spot nice post man keep it up post some more
hey spot nice post man keep it up post some more
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fuzzywuzzy
- Posts: 6596
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extraordinary rendition
he obviously doesn't know you lol lol lol .....sorry falling off my chair laughing .