downag's apocalypse

[spot]

downag wrote: I really believe that the end of the world/age as we know it is very soon to occur.The final Biblical prerequisite for the Second Coming is that the resumption of ritual animal sacrifices in the temple at Jerusalem, according to Daniel 9. I suggest you take this up with the other contributors to the forum, you never know, they may be able to oblige.

[Ted]

There have been hundreds of times throughout the millenia where folks have declared the end is at hand.

http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/y2k/bible_ca.htm

220 Dates for the End of the world!!! Date Setters!

Matt's Jesus says in Matt 16:28 "Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingom." In this case Jesus has declared that he does not know but he was also mistaken about the eschatological event.

In Matt 24:36 Matthew's Jesus says "But about the day and hour no one knws, neither the angels of heaven nor the Son, but only the Father." This also gets into the question that if Jesus is God then how can he say that the Son does not know, only the Father?

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Raven]

sixyearsleft wrote: The Sun has 500 million years left to go before it burns out,

The end of the world/age is a recycling of Earth's resourses,

The Suns Magnetic field reverses every 11 years, this means its south becomes the north, this is also going to happen to Earth, scientists predict Earths magnetic field reverses every 3 - 4 thousand years, so in our present time we are well overdue, what will happen i do not know, but it will happen at any time.
Thats interesting in light of what people perceive is global warming. Could be it's something else?

[spot]

sixyearsleft wrote: The Sun has 500 million years left to go before it burns outYou're only out by an order of magnitude but yes, five billion years from now the sun will destroy Earth. "I really believe that the end of the world/age as we know it is very soon to occur" doesn't seem appropriate to either that timeframe or even to half a billion.

sixyearsleft wrote: The Suns Magnetic field reverses every 11 years, this means its south becomes the north, this is also going to happen to Earth, scientists predict Earths magnetic field reverses every 3 - 4 thousand years, so in our present time we are well overdue, what will happen i do not know, but it will happen at any time.Again, your timeframe is out - "During the last 20 million years the fossil record shows 60 reversals", or once every hundred thousand years. I'm digging the numbers off the NASA website, where reassurance on the effects is also available... http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/ask/a10851.html - "The effects upon the biosphere seem to be minimal".

Why do you find predicting the imminent destruction of humanity a comfort?

[spot]

sixyearsleft wrote: I'm glad you know that the effects will be minimal, but it is my understanding that knowbody knowsYou might consider that Homo Sapiens has survived the last twenty or so reversals without noticeable damage.

[spot]

sixyearsleft wrote: [quote=spot]Why do you find predicting the imminent destruction of humanity a comfort?Dont be stupid.[/QUOTE]Let me rephrase the question, then. Why do you really believe that the end of the world/age as we know it is very soon to occur, given Ted's demonstration that it's such a common and unfulfilled prediction? In what way do you benefit from the notion? How does it change your behaviour? Why do you find it helpful to announce it?

[spot]

sixyearsleft wrote: the Magnetic Field effects the way that we think, its pulses drive our neural patterns it effects us greatlyPerhaps you could post supporting material to flesh out this concept, it's one I'm unfamiliar with.

[Bryn Mawr]

spot wrote: Again, your timeframe is out - "During the last 20 million years the fossil record shows 60 reversals", or once every hundred thousand years. I'm digging the numbers off the NASA website, where reassurance on the effects is also available... http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/ask/a10851.html - "The effects upon the biosphere seem to be minimal".




I'd always thought that there were several hundred reversal events across the mid atlantic trench.

Also, have you considered the possibility of a spin reversal event as per Peter Warlow's "The Reversing Earth"?

[Bryn Mawr]

Bryn Mawr wrote: I'd always thought that there were several hundred reversal events across the mid atlantic trench.




My mistake - several hundred indeed but the British Geological Survey shows an average of 225,000 years. I keep forgetting how long geological time IS.

Worryingly, given the average, they show the last event as 800,000 BP

[spot]

sixyearsleft wrote: I didn't want to have to go into this, but i will,

plz allow me time to gather data...It was "the Magnetic Field effects the way that we think, its pulses drive our neural patterns it effects us greatly", if you remember. I'm quite interested in what the words might mean. I've a reasonable understanding of the strength of the Earth's magnetic field, and the levels you need from outside the body just to get a muscle to twitch in a limb. The subtlety of the pulses that can drive our neural patterns sufficiently to affect us greatly has me on the edge of my seat.

[downag]

spot wrote: The final Biblical prerequisite for the Second Coming is that the resumption of ritual animal sacrifices in the temple at Jerusalem, according to Daniel 9. I suggest you take this up with the other contributors to the forum, you never know, they may be able to oblige.


Spot relies upon popular evangelical dogma.

Spot assumes the Bible in Daniel about the antichrist causing the daily sacrifce to stop, refers to a temple in Jerusalem and the involvment of animals, which is not stated in the scripture. Spot fails to realise that the substitution of the verbal sacrifce of our lips in praise and supplication to God has replaced animal sacrifice. When the false messiah appears, people will "think" God has arrived and will no longer give sacrifice of praise to the God of Heaven because they will think he is here.

The scripture clearly says that God's temple under the new covenant is in the body of believers. And the sacrifice he desires from us is that of our lips.

The fact that there will be no temple in Jerusalem at the time of the appearing of the false messiah will make it so that without a sacrifice of animals taking place at all, no one will recognize the times at all, except the elect, which are not Jews, but the chosen believers, the Zadok, the remnant.

Spot, you do err, not listening to the spirit.

d:-5

[Ted]

Most scholars have come to the understanding that ancient prophesy had more to do with their own time and era and nothing to do with some time in the distant future.

"Understanding the Old Testament" B. Anderson. There are others of course: Spong, Borg etc.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[spot]

downag wrote: Spot relies upon popular evangelical dogma.

Spot assumes the Bible in Daniel about the antichrist causing the daily sacrifce to stop, refers to a temple in Jerusalem and the involvment of animals, which is not stated in the scripture. Spot fails to realise that the substitution of the verbal sacrifce of our lips in praise and supplication to God has replaced animal sacrifice. When the false messiah appears, people will "think" God has arrived and will no longer give sacrifice of praise to the God of Heaven because they will think he is here.Well, no. To be honest, it's spot deflecting a downag irrelevance from a different thread, aiming to defuse matters with humour.

As for the apocalypse, if I see that degree of interference in the world I can fully imagine that I'll line up with Satan and all his little imps and demons out of sheer frustration. It would be on a par with the bullying evangelists who hijack freshers at college by knocking on all the doors in halls of residence spouting redemption, until Security flings them off campus yet again. I've sent four to university in the last decade, and the christian-evangelical locusts have descended unavailingly on all of them. Literalist fundamentalism, christian or any other flavour, gets up my nose.

[downag]

That figures.

Have fun.

[spot]

downag wrote: That figures.We differ, you and I. You expect this claptrap to occur, and I don't.

[Ted]

All the apocalyptic writings do is spread, needlessly, fear and anxiety. The book called Revelation is about the church and the political climate of John's time. Even the author John is a big question. His whole issue was the imperial Roaman Empire.

It does, however, provide some interesting material for a movie or two. I can see the special effects now. They would be spectacular.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[downag]

The Book of Revelation is a panorama of all time and not a sequencial rendering at all, except in places. It does take some deciphering. Many paralells exist between it and say, Daniel or Ezekiel portions.

As an example, I subscribe to the idea that the "mark of the beast" is a mental and spiritual condition that will prevail because of the simultaneous occurrence of the events of the 6th Seal, 6th Trump and 6th Bowl. It's in their foreheads and is displayed by their actions (in their right hand).

d:-5

[Bronwen]

downag wrote: I subscribe to the idea that the "mark of the beast" is a mental and spiritual condition that will prevail because of the simultaneous occurrence of the events of the 6th Seal, 6th Trump and 6th Bowl. It's in their foreheads and is displayed by their actions (in their right hand).down, I think you are mistaken here because the number of the beast is a single number, not three numbers. It is (six HUNDRED)+(six times TEN)+ 6, not 6+6+6. Also, the author clearly states that it is 'the number of a man'.

Though there is still some disagreement, most Biblical scholars agree that the number refers to Nero, who was already dead when Revelation was written but who, even in death, provided a good example of pure evil personified.

The Greek form of Nero's name, NERON CAESAR, does indeed add up to 666 when written in Hebrew characters, each of which has a numerical value.

[spot]

Bronwen wrote: The Greek form of Nero's name, NERON CAESAR, does indeed add up to 666 when written in Hebrew characters, each of which has a numerical value.As does "I am the Walrus", thereby laying John Lennon's claim to immortality in some obscure circles.

[Bronwen]

spot wrote: As does "I am the Walrus", thereby laying John Lennon's claim to immortality in some obscure circles.But the walrus was Paul - McCartney, that is.

[Bryn Mawr]

Bronwen wrote: down, I think you are mistaken here because the number of the beast is a single number, not three numbers. It is (six HUNDRED)+(six times TEN)+ 6, not 6+6+6. Also, the author clearly states that it is 'the number of a man'.




I also recall a suggestion that the number had been miscopied / misunderstood and that it should be read as 6 to the power 6 to the power 6.

Looks much better in a equasion editor

[spot]

Bronwen wrote: But the walrus was Paul - McCartney, that is.Oh, swizz. You mean the Antichrist is is still alive, after all? What on earth does that make Heather Mills?

I'm not convinced. John Lennon, it has to be. All that Paul stuff was just camouflage.

[downag]

Bronwen,

If I am not mistaken, the Greek for "man" used in that verse is an indefinite, meaning it could be rendered "person" ('s), or being's, etc. What human could display such powers as calling fire (lightening?) down from the sky- in their sight? The book of Job shows that Satan holds abilities over the elements in some fashion.

d:-5

[Bronwen]

downag wrote: If I am not mistaken, the Greek for "man" used in that verse is an indefinite, meaning it could be rendered "person" ('s), or being's, etc. According to the online New English Translation(NET) both translations are equally valid. Here is part of that footnote:G. K. Beale, Revelation, [NIGTC], 723-24...argues for the “generic” understanding of the noun; for an indefinite translation, see the ASV and ESV which both translate the clause as “it is the number of a man.”

The translation man’s number suggests that the beast’s number is symbolic of humanity in general, while the translation a man’s number suggests that it represents an individual.

[Bronwen]

spot wrote: I'm not convinced. John Lennon, it has to be. All that Paul stuff was just camouflage.In Magical Mystery Tour, John says to little Nicola, 'I am the walrus!', and she replies, 'No, you're not!'

The matter is settled on the White Album in 'Glass Onion': 'The walrus was Paul.'

[spot]

As an afterthought to the discussion on the end times, I might mention that there's a parody series of books by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins, the "Left Behind" series, which plays out the whole Apocalyptic vision of Daniel, Ezekiel and John.

The authors make it quite plain that their sympathies are entirely with the Antichrist, "Nicholae Carpathia", who time and again employs humanist policy while trying to improve the fate of humanity in the face of a vengeful, uncaring and all-powerful Deity. The odds are entirely stacked against him. Supernatural slaughter of three quarters of the world's population by God becomes more and more grotesque as plagues are escalated.

The authors turn the entire concept into a grand comedy, showing the lack of morality underpinning any concept of divine judgement. I recommend the books to anyone wanting a primer on Revelation.

[Ted]

spot:-6

Dr. D. Hall has the following to say about that series and apocalyptic theology in general: paraphrased "it is nothing more then a human lust for power and self-centred fantacising." I personally probably would not say it that way but in general I agree with him. To many theologians today. that is a complete misreading of "Revelation".

That being said, of course, folks are quite free to interpret it as they wish. It seems to me it is nothing more then the "carrot and stick" approach with the emphasis on the "stick". This is certainly not how I see the life of Jesus who is said to have demonstrated to us the fulness of God.

gmc is right, in another thread to comment on this use of "Revelation". He will probably be shocked to know that I agree with him on this. However, I do not believe it to reflect the Christian faith as I know it. He is also correct in his comments on the God of the OT. According to many his error is in the fact that the OT must be read in the light of the NT and the God that we see there. This is the view to which I subscribe.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[downag]

Bronwen wrote: down, I think you are mistaken here because the number of the beast is a single number, not three numbers. It is (six HUNDRED)+(six times TEN)+ 6, not 6+6+6. Also, the author clearly states that it is 'the number of a man'.

Though there is still some disagreement, most Biblical scholars agree that the number refers to Nero, who was already dead when Revelation was written but who, even in death, provided a good example of pure evil personified.

The Greek form of Nero's name, NERON CAESAR, does indeed add up to 666 when written in Hebrew characters, each of which has a numerical value.


Here's a funny!

Suppose you were writing a computer program and needed to assign a numerical value to each letter of the aphabet, and you did thus;

A=6, B=12, C=18 etc, etc.

The numbers of the name HENRY KISSINGER ='s 666

Saw this one back in the "80's. They had a field day with it for quite some time. LOL.

d:-5

[spot]

downag wrote: The numbers of the name HENRY KISSINGER ='s 6661086, actually. It's worth checking before you post. Henry Kissinger may well be as constrained in his international travel as the unlamented General Pinochet or even Ratko Mladic, but none of them can be excused their amorality by reason of diabolism.

Henry Kissinger, admittedly, was responsible for far more deaths than either of the others ever clocked up, even if you only count Indonesians. All three were patriots.

Maybe you were thinking of the year that the Domesday book was completed?

Of course, if you leave off the "HENRY", you get the right sum.

I just took a random sample of 4893 surnames. Of those, 431 were 9 letters long. Of those, 13 summed to 666 - that's 3%. One in thirty 9-letter-surnamed politicians (or priests, or policemen, or teachers) carry the number of the beast by your methodology. At a guess (though I haven't checked it) 9 letters is the best fit to get the answer you're looking for.

Bryn Mawr wrote: I also recall a suggestion that the number had been miscopied / misunderstood and that it should be read as 6 to the power 6 to the power 6.I refer the honourable gentleman to Robert Heinlein's novel "Number of the Beast", where that formula encodes the number of parallel universes which immediately touch any initial coordinate. The only evidence in his favour is that Rubik's Cube was undoubtedly the work of Satan. "Rubik's Cube" enumerated by downag's method also adds to 666. I expect bits of me do, if I choose the right portions.

In terms of misunderstanding what you see when it makes no sense in your own environment, St John the Revelator knew Latin characters but not English ones. He may well have been shown "www" in a vision and, not having seen a "w" before (since Latin didn't have it) mistaken the prefix for VI VI VI, the Latin enumeration of 666. Hey Presto.

[Bryn Mawr]

spot wrote:

In terms of misunderstanding what you see when it makes no sense in your own environment, St John the Revelator knew Latin characters but not English ones. He may well have been shown "www" in a vision and, not having seen a "w" before (since Latin didn't have it) mistaken the prefix for VI VI VI, the Latin enumeration of 666. Hey Presto.


ROTFL - There's many who'd agree that the WWW is the work of the devil :wah:

[downag]

Well spot, you got me that time, my mistake.

It is just his last name that adds up to 666, which was my original intent.

d:-5

[spot]

downag wrote: Well spot, you got me that time, my mistake. A cautious poster might have asked to see my list of surnames before giving in so easily.

I do think it dilutes the nature of the Beast to assign poor Henry Kissinger the role of Antichrist, not to mention the other thousands of innocents whose names carry the same arithmetic result. On the other hand, anything that dissuades parents from inflicting Rubik's Cube on their innocent offspring is worth encouraging.

[downag]

spot wrote: A cautious poster might have asked to see my list of surnames before giving in so easily.

I do think it dilutes the nature of the Beast to assign poor Henry Kissinger the role of Antichrist, not to mention the other thousands of innocents whose names carry the same arithmetic result. On the other hand, anything that dissuades parents from inflicting Rubik's Cube on their innocent offspring is worth encouraging.


SPOT!

Back in the 80's there was quite an uproar among certain evangelicals regarding this about Henry Kissinger. Because he was so elevated in power as to the world scene at the time and the fact that he is a Jew made it all the more palitable for people to imagine he could become the antichrist. You must remember, those are the people who imagine that for the end times scenario to occur, there must first be a "rapture" and then what's left is up to "the Jews". A mistake in my book. Way back to Hal Lindsey and his "Late Great Planet Earth" the theory that the antichrist "has" to be a Jew, furthered the Kissinger hysteria. At this same time, there was associated uproar about the coming out of info regarding an organization called The Trilateral Commission. All smoke and mirrors by the "Illuminati" if you ask me.

d:-5

[Ted]

"We have met the enemy (beast, antichrist) and he is us."

The devil, satan, or whatever you call him is an excuse to blame someone else for our misbehaviour. It is time to look at where misbehaviour originates and that is us to begin with.

The "antichrist" is myth and metaphor not a reality.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Ted]

Hal Lindsey and his ilk are fear mongers pandering to man's basic nature to respond to fear and look for absolutel surety where it does not exist. This nonsense is a very lousy approach used to mislead folks into believing pure garbage. It is far from Christian IMO.

"You better follow me baby or you gonna burn". A great approach completely in opposition to the teachings of Jesus. They have created their own religious faith.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[downag]

That was a very cute mis-quote Ted.

The actual phrase goes like this, as it appeared in the comic strip "POGO" back in the late "70's" I believe.

"We have met the enemy, and they is us".

Quite a source for wisdom! LOL.

It has been said, that the greatest accomplisment the Devil has achieved- is that he has convinced a majority that he does not exist.

If he isn't out there, then you aren't looking for him. If he is and you aren't watching, he got you.

d:-5

[telaquapacky]

downag wrote: Here's a funny!

Suppose you were writing a computer program and needed to assign a numerical value to each letter of the aphabet, and you did thus;

A=6, B=12, C=18 etc, etc.

The numbers of the name HENRY KISSINGER ='s 666

Saw this one back in the "80's. They had a field day with it for quite some time. LOL.

d:-5My personal choice is:

V I C A R I V S .............. F I L I I............. D E I

5+1+100+1+5+..............1+50+1+1+........500+ 1 = 666

But you don't have to twiddle letters and numbers. Only look at the theology and historical historical record of the Papacy, and there you jolly well are.

[downag]

Tele-,

I do agree that the Popes have been antichrist. I do not agree that a Pope will be "The Antichrist" as he is defined as being the Son of Perdition or the "little horn" which speaks great things or the "abominator of desolation", the "desolator".

Where the scripture speaks of number being a "man's" number, that word in the Greek was an "indefinite" and could have been rendered "being" or just "person"'s. It is not hard to imagine that the translators could not conceive of the Devil himself showing up.

I believe it is Satan himself, who will appear claiming to be God. No human could fulfill that role.

d:-5

[Ted]

downag:-6

Good lord I misquoted even if I was paraphrasing. Is that all you have to worry about.

BTW I can be petty too. You misspelled "acomplishment" My heavens I feel better already. Aaaaah, it is so good. LOL

Now I have no problem with you believing in the devil. Go for it.

In my and many others view it is a myth.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[downag]

A quote is a quote is a quote.

The myth is that you know anything about spiritual matters.

I wonder! How many pages your have ripped out of your Bible, Ted?

When the "myth" shows up, Ted, I'm coming to B.C. to see if you can get your mouth closed after that jaw dropping event.

As always, time will tell.

[Bronwen]

telaquapacky wrote: 1. My personal choice is:

V I C A R I V S .............. F I L I I............. D E I

5+1+100+1+5+..............1+50+1+1+........500+ 1 = 666

2. Only look at the theology and historical historical record of the Papacy, and there you jolly well are.It is a source of great amusement to me how tel has now become a sort of cyber-hobo, migrating from thread to thread in order to avoid those posters, myself in particular, who confront him and are unwilling to let him get away with his slander and his nonsense.

To see how ridiculous his example is, go here:

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showt ... 299&page=7

...scrolling down to the third post, which begins, 'Does anybody know...'

2. Anyone wishing to study the history of the papacy with no sectarian bias, Catholic or anti-Catholic, can go to any good encyclopedia such as the Britannica.

Anyone wishing to know more about who is pulling tel's strings should go here:

http://www.truthorfables.com

Edited a bit later to add the following: As I mentioned on the other thread, I cannot personally attest to the accuracy of everything on the linked website. It seems to have been posted in good faith by a former Adventist. If anything on the link is inaccurate, I would welcome DOCUMENTED corrections from either practicing Adventists such as tel or by others with some knowledge of Adventism. As I have said several times previously, my own knowledge of the sect is minimal.

The difference between those who slander Catholicism and myself is that everything I post here is posted in good faith and if I should make any errors or misleading statements I would wish to be corrected. The slanderers are interested only in slandering, and if questioned or challenged on one thread they simply ignore the questions, move on, and bear the same false witness elsewhere.

[Ted]

downag:-6

I wonder what kind of Christian makes personal attacks and then calls people names? None that I know of for sure. I most certainly have never stooped so low as to call anyone a liar.

Perhaps you don't know what paraphrasing is. Better look that up too.

Get a life.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[spot]

Quotes for the day:

Ted wrote: I wonder what kind of Christian makes personal attacks and then calls people names?I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

Ted wrote: None that I know of for sure. I most certainly have never stooped so low as to call anyone a liar.If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar.

Ted wrote: Perhaps you don't know what paraphrasing is.When I see a spade I call it a spade.