Harry Potter...and why Snape is on the side of good, I tell ya!

Yavanna · Post by **Yavanna** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:55 am

I couldn't see any threads dedicated to these books so thought, what the heck, if there is one lurking in the voids somewhere, I'm sure this thread can be deleted.

Snape is innocent. I keep telling people this and they look at my as if I'm slightly weird. Only slightly, I think to myself, little do they know about my obsession with mashed potato. But that's another story.

I love the Harry Potter books. I particularly love the character of Severus Snape. He is a wizarding genius, with black eyes, a mordant wit and a flair for poetry. Be still my beating heart!

I am utterly convinced that in the Half-Blood Prince, he and Dumbledore arranged that Snape would end DD's life if it was for the greater good of the order. There are lots of reasons why I think this but here are some of the principal ones.

We overhear them talking, during which Snape is reluctant to do something but DD forces the issue. My own view is that DD has planned a series of information leaks about his supposed old age catching up with him ie you note that in Spinner's End, Snape tells Bellatrix that DD was seriously injured not long before ; I think this is mentioned to her because she's bound to repeat it to Voldy. After all, a great wizard like DD would be able to conjure himself a new hand, wouldn't he ? If Voldy can do it for Worntail.........In my view, that was a calculated release of information made to make Voldy think that DD was already on his last legs so that his being killed in the end seemed less surprising. It also fits in with my theory that DD isn't really dead in any event, but just wants everyone to think he is.

We note that DD wants only Snape as he and Harry return to Hogwarts and see the Dark Mark above the tower (not the other members of the Order who could have added to their numbers).

His pleading with Snape on the tower can be read as him reminding Snape to follow their pre-arranged plan - without which Snape would have been revealed to the other death eaters as on DD's side, and would have at the same time broken his Unbreakable Vow to save Draco. I think Snape was having a moment of crisis at this point and might have refused to "kill" DD if he hadn't been pressured to do it.

The Avada Kedavra curse Snape uses is different from all other descriptions of it in the books ; DD is lifted off his feet, curves gracefully in the air and falls off the tower. Yet at the point it is carried out, Harry is still subject to DD's spell, making him invisible and immobile. If the spell-caster has died instantly, his spell would be lifted, no ?

Also, the emphasis on non-verbal spells throughout the book isn't there for nothing ; I think there is a reasonable chance that Snaper/DD performed a non-verbal on DD, which make the following avada kedavra curse invalid.

As Snape flees, he orders a death eater not to perform the Crucio curse on Harry and bizarrely, gives Harry advice on how to defeat Voldy as he runs away ; peculiar actions for a supposed death eater. If Snape really was on Voldy's side, and had killed DD, wouldn't that have been the perfect moment to capture Harry and hand him over ? Or to kill him? After all, Voldy doesn't need Harry alive anymore does he ? And Voldy doesn't know about the prophecy and it's suggestion that one of them has to kill the other.

Have I convinced you ? No ? Huh ? :-3

Well, if anyone's wondering if I've given too much thought to this, they're absolutely right

libertine · Post by **libertine** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:36 pm

I have to admit that I have given this issue some passing thoughts, too, and i agree with nearly every point you have made.

I'm not too sure DD is NOT dead, however. You make a good argument, and I will have to go back and examine that aspect of the end.

One other thought is that DD made himself a horcrux. The reason I mention this is because the reader is given such a complete explanation of that phenomenon. Usually Rowling passes over the curses with only enough informatin to make them understandable when/if they're used.

Glad to see a discussion of the book. Thanks

Yavanna · Post by **Yavanna** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:12 am

D'you know, I don't think I understand the whole horcrux thing really ; I went through a phase of thinking Harry's scar must be one, or Nagini the snake etc. Then I decided that I haven't been able to predict anything JKR has done so far, so I'd better give up trying!

I lied - I do predict that Snape will die in the final book. I can't see how JKR can redeem him in the sense of giving him a "happy ever after", do you? Tragically, I think Harry will kill him and only later find out that Snape was working for the Order all along.*sob*. The killing of Snape will, of course, occur before DD reappears and tells all.

actionfigurestepho · Post by **actionfigurestepho** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:30 am

I also think Snape is on the side of eventual good. It would be too convenient for him NOT to be. I think it's being set up for a really nice twist ending.

libertine · Post by **libertine** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:06 am

HAve either of you given any thought to the idea that NEVILLE might be the important one here instead of Harry. In book five (I think) it was brought to our attention that his birthday and Harry's are the same day. Maybe Harry is a 'red herring' (so to speak) to keep V. off Neville's case until he can come into his own. Harry might be acting as a diversion and in the capacity of a messenger, so to speak, much as John the Baptist did.

As a religious Allegory, I don't see Harry in the role of Jesus, but I CAN see Neville there.

Yavanna · Post by **Yavanna** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:48 pm

Yes, Neville. The problem with him being the subject of the prophecy is that Voldy marked Harry out - chose him as his arch enemy ("and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal....").

I suppose it's possible that Voldy picked the wrong kid. But if that was so, what power does Neville have that the Dark Lord knows not ? We know that in Harry's case, it refers to the blood sacrifice made by his mother, but there's nothing so obvious as far as Neville is concerned.

Also, I think that revealing Neville as Voldy's nemesis would be a huge anti-climax, given how we have seen Harry develop. That would be one massive red herring - 6 books about Harry, only to find that the 7th is about Neville. But having said all of that, JKR is pretty good at springing surprises on us all. Perhaps she'll reveal that Snape wears fluffy slippers and likes nothing better than a good cry whilst watching Casablanca.....

libertine · Post by **libertine** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:05 pm

Neville as the 'real' top wizard doesn't preclude Harry as Voldemart's nemesis. And we have only heard bits and pieces of Neville's 'sacrifice'..losing both his parents and being raised by his grandmother. It reminds me of old fairy tales where the 'real' royal body is disguised for a time by whatever means until time to emerge as the true king or queen..Remember The Sword in the Stone?...

Anyway, It gives a new direction to think about the stories.

I'm still back on SNAPE. and do you think Sirius Black will return???

Yavanna · Post by **Yavanna** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:12 pm

No, I don't think Sirius will return. I'm toying with the idea that Dumbledore might but in the tradition of heroes throughout literature and film, perhaps Harry has to be stripped of his adult guides in order to face Voldy alone at the end.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:17 am

Snape, Snape, Snape, ah yes, the anti-hero gets the girls interested again. I think Snape is by far the most interesting of the main characters in the potter books, I used to like him as his severe treatment of that annoying do-gooder Potter and his jolly hockystick chums appealed to my saditstic nature and my intense dislike of all school children. But now it seems that the whole plot is going to turn on whether he is good or evil, so that has made him even more interesting. I will give this to Rowling, she knows how to keep an audience guessing. I hope that in the final encounter, Potter gets his arse kicked by voldemorte, Snape then comes to the rescue and blasts VDs soul to wherever it belongs, gets hermione pregnant (she should be legal by then), cuts rons hair, fires Trewlany, makes Malfoy the new Hogwarts PE teacher, gives Potter a pass mark in his exams and then give him a good thrashing for having annoyed us all with his sappy heroics. He can then instigate a glorious thousand year reign of Slytherin in Hogwarts as headmaster. The end. You heard it here first.

Yavanna · Post by **Yavanna** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:59 am

ROTFLMAO:wah:

Will he get time to wash his hair in between all of this ?

Actually, I reckon I'm going to look just like a female version of him for my firm's Xmas party - I'm wearing a long black dress, I have dark hair about his length and a pale complexion like him. I also use sarcasm a lot. Professor Snapetta, yay!

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:00 am

So Alan Rickman, you reckon he is a bit of alright then?

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:11 am

SnoozeControl wrote: Alan Rickman aside, Snapes is physically unattractive, has poor hygiene and most likely has body odor and bad breath (which I believe was mentioned in the books a time or two) and he's emotionally retarded. I hardly see how his intelligence overcomes these serious defects.

I dunno, but the girls all seem crazy bout him, huh, thats women for you?

I guess it just goes to prove that nice guys come last, and thats true, I am not really a nice guy, though I do make an effort sometimes, and they are always trying to change me and get me to care about the fluffy animals and dolphins and stuff, I keep telling them I couldn't be arsed and would much rather watch the football, but they keep on trying.

Then again, I'm not married am I, so maybe thats a load of crap? Maybe the caring sharing men are on to something, nah, I think they just act nice till they get married, then the maleness comes out again and they start chasing skirt and watching war movies

Celtor · Post by **Celtor** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:22 am

Ugh, as a woman I totally am not into Snape, but as a fictional character, he is very interesting. These were all very interesting points and I will have to reread things with a more "big picture" view in mind.

On a side note, I actually watch war movies with my guy and point out nice sets of tits if I happen to see them when we're out and about :sneaky: I like my men to be actual men, not metrosexual or feminine, and I'm confident enough in our relationship that I don't feel threatened by much.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:30 am

Celtor wrote: Ugh, as a woman I totally am not into Snape, but as a fictional character, he is very interesting. These were all very interesting points and I will have to reread things with a more "big picture" view in mind.

On a side note, I actually watch war movies with my guy and point out nice sets of tits if I happen to see them when we're out and about :sneaky: I like my men to be actual men, not metrosexual or feminine, and I'm confident enough in our relationship that I don't feel threatened by much.

Fair enough, thats what I like to hear! But erm, what is a "metrosexual?" have I missed out on yet another interesting activity on the underground? (subway U.S.)

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:45 am

SnoozeControl wrote: That soccer star married to one of the spice girls is "metrosexual." He does his brows, etc.

He's more femme than I am.:rolleyes:

Oh "David Beckham" as in the most famous man in the whole world?, (obviously you have been spared this in America), right, I get it now, "he's all man, but he's not afraid to wear his wife's knickers" and so on? Yeah, load of bollix, designed to sell poncy male perfumes and such nonsense. Great player though, can pass a ball 60 yards and land it on a tuppence, but his wife, she is a wagon.

Celtor · Post by **Celtor** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:46 am

Here's the short on metrosexual: "Metrosexual was coined in 1994 (as was its noun, metrosexuality) by British journalist Mark Simpson, who used it to refer to an urban male of any sexual orientation who has a strong aesthetic sense and spends a great deal of time and money on his appearance and lifestyle. ..." from: http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=2& ... etrosexual

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:51 am

Celtor wrote: Here's the short on metrosexual: "Metrosexual was coined in 1994 (as was its noun, metrosexuality) by British journalist Mark Simpson, who used it to refer to an urban male of any sexual orientation who has a strong aesthetic sense and spends a great deal of time and money on his appearance and lifestyle. ..." from: http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=2& ... etrosexual

Or as we would call them...........wankers.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:53 am

SnoozeControl wrote: No offense to the Brits, but of course it was a British journalist that coined the phrase. American men might be well groomed, but they don't usually flash their clear fingernail polish around with pride.

I've lived in England Snooze, and I can assure you that apart from the guys that Journalists would hang around with in the Groucho Club in London, most British men have not started using lipgloss yet.

Yavanna · Post by **Yavanna** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:01 am

Most British men haven't yet mastered the art of applying deodorant

Actually, I'm kidding - I see a lot of younger guys who are very into their appearance ; too little interest in hygiene/appearance is a turn off but so is too much - that would be a guy I'd classify as too much up his own ass. The type who'll go and see March of the Penguins and rave about it at supper parties. Come to think about it, the type who goes to supper parties :wah:

Anyway, back momentarily to Snape - it's the appearance of Rickman playing a very intelligent man that's so attractive. But having said that, even as far as the book character is concerned, his poor looks aren't the only criteria on which we're judging him surely ? Because that would be a little lookist, no ?

libertine · Post by **libertine** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:14 am

Actually, I think the directors or whoever have done a remarkable job of casting the characters in the Harry movies. They are pretty much how I've imagined them, and now the movie personnnas don't get in the way of reading, as sometimes happens. The only one that is a little off for me is Malfoy's father....and while he is perfectly evil, I think he is a little too malevolent.

I really liked the Rita character in this last movie.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:17 am

Anyway, back momentarily to Snape - it's the appearance of Rickman playing a very intelligent man that's so attractive. But having said that, even as far as the book character is concerned, his poor looks aren't the only criteria on which we're judging him surely ? Because that would be a little lookist, no ?

Lookist? Are we not allowed to discrimate against people now cause they are mingers? Actually Rickman does seem to generate a huge and loyal female audience, hes not a Brad Pitt kinda guy, but he is I suppose handsome and he definetly gives off an aura of intelligence, manners, and taste, which I suppose shows that women are a bit less shallow than men when it comes to working out who is attractive and who is not. Actually I saw him one time in Dublin, and he is quite striking in real life, and my female friends were extremely furious that they weren't there!

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:24 am

libertine wrote: Actually, I think the directors or whoever have done a remarkable job of casting the characters in the Harry movies. They are pretty much how I've imagined them, and now the movie personnnas don't get in the way of reading, as sometimes happens. The only one that is a little off for me is Malfoy's father....and while he is perfectly evil, I think he is a little too malevolent.

I really liked the Rita character in this last movie.

I think that the best decision they made was to just use Brits, as the books are very British really so anything else wouldn't be very authentic somehow, though there are some American actors who can do the "British" type character very well, and seem to get "Britishness". Actually Johnny Depp, is always popping up on little British T.V. shows and comedy things, and he seems completely at home in them, and he seems to get a kick out of all things English. I don't think the adult characters were that hard to do, as we have loads of actors that can do those types of roles, basically being adult Brtish Isles people, (for instance Brendan Gleeson who plays mad-eyed Mooney is perfect, but thats cause he really is Irish and doesn't have to incorporate that into his acting), but the 3 main kids would have been harder, but they seem to have chosen them very well, they look right, they can act, you don't particularly feel like hitting them, and so on.

Celtor · Post by **Celtor** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 2:06 pm

SnoozeControl wrote: Snape has body odor and filthy hair. He's angry, tempermental and has absolutely no sense of humor. He holds grudges against children who's parents annoyed him 15 years previously.

What was it you found attractive about him?
Exactly!

I mean, sure, maybe Rickman outside of his Snape persona is an attractive person, but in this case Snape the character pretty much overwhelms any attractiveness with his oily, smelly, bad-tempered self. Yuck.

And I agree that the characters for the films were all very well cast...there definitely is no interference when reading and vice versa. Usually I'm always raging about how they got a character totally wrong in the film in some crucial way, but not with this.

Yavanna · Post by **Yavanna** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 2:08 am

Granted, Snape is not a looker in the books ; but as I said before, it's not about looks - that would be a poor form of literary criticism and response to characterisation, if that was all.

The character is attractive (to me) because it's mordant, sardonic, very intelligent, and funny. I distinguish the character from the physical description of the chracater. You're quite wrong to say he has no sense of humour - a black humour is evident in many things he says. Bu the biggy is of course this question of redemption ; has he gone over to the good side ? If he has, why does he still act like such a **** towards Harry etc ? If he's still on Voldy's side, why disarm Harry at the end of HBP, refuse others to perform the Cruciatus curse and then proceed to give him advice about how to defeat Voldy? ? Is he playing both sides for his own ends or has Dumbledore made a huge mistake in trusting him ?

That's by far the most interesting question in the books, it seems to me - the one which hasn't got an easy answer.

My own view is that he is on the side of good - but that that doesn't mean he is a "good" person in his behaviour. He remains emotionally arrested, as I've said. He's a character who is highly intellectual - and very quick-thinking. However, his feelings are mangled. Reminds me of Hamlet, actually. Only with greasy hair.:p

Actually, I think Snape made an Unbreakable Vow to Dumbledore that he would not let any harm come to Harry. It would explain the numerous times he's saved the kid's skin but still clearly hates his guts. Perhaps it was a condition of his repentance and joining of the Order of the Phoenix.

libertine · Post by **libertine** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 10:17 am

You're correct about character, of course. Most of the best characters in fiction are not necessarily the attractive ones in the book, either physically or emotionally.

You mention REDEMPTION. As we read the book, Snape is really the only one in the stories in need of redemption. That may be the reason for the ambiguity in his personna right now

I didn't think of The unbreakable promise in regards to Harry. You may have hit on the real reason for his actions, and in reality he is STILL the SOB he started out to be.:rolleyes:

samanthauk23 · Post by **samanthauk23** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 11:25 am

sorry if this has already been said and I missed it but isn't there a curse ( and i think it was the one snape used on DD) that only works if you really mean it?? If so, Snape is prob still a double agent and DD is all fine and dandy.... I reckon DD faked his death so that poor old harry feels theres nothing left to keep him on earth when the time comes for him to sacrifice his own life....which i think he will have to to destroy Voldemort!

Woah, heavy....

(I quite fancy snape too :-4 )

The Red One · Post by **The Red One** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 11:45 am

Yavonna, I have the last three books and you are going to freak! It's nothing like any of us are expecting. I was like Oh My this is definately interesting, what a turn of events. I'm not going to tell you what happens, you'll have to wait on the books to come out.

But from what I've read so far, you're definately going to freak. :yh_ooooo

Yavanna · Post by **Yavanna** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 2:18 pm

Your post is enough to make me freak :p

So, um, JKR has decided to write another three books, has she ? What, not made enough money already ? Hmmmmm... they probably take Harry past his seventeenth year and we see him end up at the University of Salem, where he'll get drunk a lot, fool around with a little witch from Holland who has a bit of a drugs problem - but, you know, not much of one and she isa student, and then afterwards he'll take a gap year and go sleighing in the Czech Republic.

Yeah, that would work.

libertine · Post by **libertine** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 3:43 pm

I'm pretty sure JKR will end with the seventh book. That has been her plan all along. What other authors do to the story from there is anyone's guess. And it WILL happen. Someone is still writing James Bond stories and Ian Fleming has been gone for years.

We may be surprised with the Ending to the Saga. JKR is good at surprises!!

The Red One · Post by **The Red One** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:25 pm

Yavanna, sorry about misspelling your un before, if you'd like, I can e-mail them to you.

Yavanna · Post by **Yavanna** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:41 pm

Can you pm them to me ? Truth is, I'm a member of two high-profile Harry Potter websites and chances are I've heard the rumours you refer to before - but you never know....:p

The Red One · Post by **The Red One** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:41 pm

After I asked if you wanted me to e-mail them to you I actually read them. Come to find out they are only hunches of what will happen next. I could've beat the husband to death! :-5 I'm such an idiot! Sorry about that. It made good reading material though. Oh! Are we allowed to post jokes on here?

The Red One · Post by **The Red One** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 1:27 pm

I do however have a Trivia book about Harry Potter. Wanna play?:D

Yavanna · Post by **Yavanna** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:57 pm

I'm always happy to show my ignorance - go for it! It doesn't involve charades does it ? Had a bad experience with that once, trying to mime Mae West.....ahem...nuff said.....

The Red One · Post by **The Red One** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:37 am

no miming required. Here goes:

What word coined by J.K. Rowling made it into the Oxford English Dictionary?

A) Dementor

B) Snape

C) Gryffindor

D) Muggle

Yavanna · Post by **Yavanna** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:06 am

(d) Muggle

Next ?

The Red One · Post by **The Red One** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:04 pm

ding ding ding

How many voiced did reader Jim Dale use in the audio version of Goblet of Fire?

A) 102

B) 114

C) 127

D) 149

In what year was the storyline for Harry Potter originally conceived by J.K. Rowling?

A) 1988

B) 1989

C) 1990

D) 1991

What day is Nearly Headless Nick's deathday bash?

A) Dec. 31

B) July 31

C) Jan 31

D) Oct 31

What Harry Potter based object was the subject of vandalism in 2001?

A) Platform nine and three quarters

B) Ford Anglia

C) Muggle taxi

D) Hogwarts Express Train

Yavanna · Post by **Yavanna** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:50 pm

Randy Plotter and the Gobbing of Phlegm ?

Hari Krishna and the Half-Rancid Mince?

Barry Trotter and the Chamber of Breeches ?

That last one.....sounds familiar....I think I saw a film on late night TV about it......those poor owls.......

Anyone fancy writing a parody ? I do love a good parody!

The Red One, I didn't know the answer to any of those I'm afraid...I feel such a failure....